Music Chat: Artists Who Actually Knew When to Quit 

Great video, Dave! Thank you. I remember attending Gré Brouwenstijn's final performance in Amsterdam in the early 1970s. She sang Wagner and Verdi with the Concertgebouw Orchestra under Bernard Haitink. I was there with my parents, and after the concert my mother took me behind the stage. There many fans were gathered. Gré Brouwenstijn was easy-going, very kind and untiring in providing autographs. When it was my mother;'s turn, my mother said to the singer: "Thank you so much for this wonderful evening. I will miss hearing your voice." Brouwensteijn replied: "I am glad you did. You know, I always want to give my best, and I now feel it is time to leave the stage. Because I know this is the best I can give, and if I move on, I won't. And that isn't good for music, for me, and for you, for my audience. I have been given a great gift. I am profoundly grateful for it and want to share it with younger singers from now on"

I owe Janet Baker my love of finer music. As a child, I heard her singing Linden Lea and i wept at the ineffable beauty of it. I heard so many other sopranos sing it since but none moved me as she did.

Eli Epstein! Second horn of the Cleveland symphony orchestra during the Dohnanyi days! He left the orchestra in the early 2000s during his prime to pursue horn teaching and pedagogy. He practically invented comprehensive anatomical brass pedagogy with his MRI research post his career in Cleveland and has revolutionized the world of horn playing in a major way. Also a very good teacher to myself and many others!

Rosa Ponselle is from my hometown of Meriden, CT. There is a nice but somewhat neglected memorial to her just off of West Main Street a few hundred feet west of its intersection with Broad Street.

David, your usual down to earth candor is much appreciated. I Attended a performance of Beethoven's 9th by Stokowski on the occasion of his 90th birthday that was absolutely phenomenal. Before the concert he announced that he was dedicating it to the cause of the U.S. getting out of Vietnam, which resulted in wild applause. Long ago, I read somewhere that Stokowski signed a ten-year recording contract at the age of 95.

Another fun and fascinating video. I do await the one on 'Artists who never knew when NOT to start'. You have made some beginning on that...

One you didn't mention was Beverly Sills--though you could argue she was just beginning to lose it when she hung it up. She very publicly stated she'd "been there, done that". Then there was Bernstein. I remember when it was announced--all the media ran the story--that he wasn't going to conduct anymore. I knew right then that he had to be at death's door. He died within days, if memory serves. (I had the great joy of catching an Elly Ameling recital years ago. What a great evening that was. My sister was with me, and she enjoyed it as much as I did, even though she was not a classical-music person. )

One thing I believe we can all agree on, and that is the list of those who knew when to go is dwarfed by the list of those who didn't. Great talk Dave!

Wonderful video! Among sopranos who knew when to quit and did, don't forget Beverly Sills, who quit when she was 51, and she got lots of publicity when that happened back in (I think) 1980. The case of Vladimir Ashkenazy is interesting, because he retired in phases. First he stopped playing solo recitals in public. After he developed arthrosis in his hands, he retreated from all public piano performance, although he still made piano recordings, and conducted. And then in January 2020 it was announced that he'd retire for good. Alfred Brendel retired from playing for good (in concert and on record) in 2008 at 77, although he'd already been phasing out certain repertoire items. As for other consistent conductors who still delivered the goods into old age, I'd nominate Monteux and Ansermet.

I’m reading all these comments with a lot of interest. I met Menuhin once as a teenager in Inverness of all places around 1980 and it was obvious he couldn’t do solo Bach anymore. But it made me think as this is all about careers that there is something moving in hearing the relative decline of great artists you’ve been paying attention to. I can think of several people who perhaps “should” have stopped but didn’t but the sheer life force is inspiring. Eg Fischer-Dieskau, Jessye Norman, Thelonious Monk.

This is terrific. One world class artist you may not know - indeed, he is often considered the greatest performer of his instrument in history - also retired in his prime: cornetist Herbert L. Clarke (1867-1945). He was one of the Sousa Band's most important soloists, made many records, wrote cornet solos that are still played to-day, and his Technical Studies are one of the core works of brass instrument instruction. He was also assistant conductor for Sousa from 1905 to 1917, at which point he retired as an active cornet soloist. He said that he wanted to quit at age 50 because he had heard the great cornetist Jules Levy (1838-1903) play well past his prime. (Levy's last recordings from 1902-03 show only the remnants of his abilities.) So Clarke became a teacher and conductor, ending up as conductor of the highly-skilled Long Beach Municipal Band from 1923 to 1943. (Clarke did make two last sides for Brunswick in 1923 as a favour for an old friend at the company; at 56 he still played flawlessly.) His autobiography, charmingly titled "How I Became A Cornetist", is still a good read and a classic source of wind band history

Glad you mentioned Rosa Ponselle. She was really terrific. There are some reasonably good recordings of her on RU-vid for anyone who is interested.

Some conductors seem to get slower as they get older, such as Klemperer, Giulini, Celibidache.

Stokowski....YES!!! Some of those late records and recorded live performances....wow. Thanks for mentioning him!

Christa Ludwig❤️. I heard her do the Winterreise live. Also, she totally could have sung some soprano parts… her high C in her recording of Bluebeards Castle is a wonder!

Toscanini conducted Resphigi's The Pines of Rome from memory flawleessly with the NBC Symphony at 85--you can hear it on RU-vid.

Thomas Quasthoff semi-retired as a concert singer in 2012, aguing mainly health issues. He continued doing coaching, Sprechstimme roles and some jazz

Where do people like Eileen Farrell and Leontyne Price fit into this scenario? They both quit early (Price at about age 58, Farrell in her late 40s) from the opera stage, but continued off and on stage performances for some years after.

Not a classical artist, but Artie Shaw comes to mind as someone who left the stage at the top of his game.

Nathan Milstein was exceptional for a violin player in that he could play in tune in his mid-80s and still kept his distinctive sound. Meanwhile poor old Isaac Stern was a goner at just 60

Very interesting. I always found it alarming when musicians/singers/soloists regarded conducting as a retirement "plan". Mainly because they skip entirely the training for their conducting technique, overall symphonic repertoire and the right(non solistic)mentality of the conductor. It is also alarming when orchestras just... let them do it.

Another soprano who quit in time was Renata Tebaldi, as she herself said "I don't want to see my decline documented in the press". I don't think Haitink or Skrowaczewski deteriorated. And Herbert Blomstedt is another marvel.

Very interesting chat, especially about conductors. Once saw (and heard) him conduct the NYPO. He was also a Connecticut neighbor of my first wife and her parents, where he once knocked on the door. My mother-in-law was scared out of her wits because she had heard he was a lady's man. The visit turned out to innocent, thus ending this anti-climatic adventure.

Another soprano who quit without fuss or forewarning was the beautiful Lisa della Casa.

Wow, this may be my favorite of all your video chats to date. What makes you so incredibly remarkable as a recordings critic is your vast, accurate, and highly informed knowledge of every aspect of music history, performance practice, and musical styles. You also have a marvelous sense of humor, so welcome in a field where heavy seriousness is the rule. I am a professional voice coach, pianist, and conductor, and am delighted that you know so much about singing and singers, a very narrow area for most. I can't even remember when I could chat with a colleague about classical music repertoire outside of Opera and Art Song! I consider myself very well informed about the overview of music history and recordings, but pale by comparison to you. I have learned many interesting tidbits of information by watching your videos, and also have been introduced to recordings I never knew existed, e.g., the Jean Morel complete Albéniz Iberia. If I may, would you also consider George Szell as an example of a conductor who not only kept his greatness and strength to the very end, even getting better in some instances? That sizzling live Sibelius Second from Tokyo, of which you made me aware, recorded just months before his death is a stunning example.

Don’t forget that Stokowski started up an orchestra that’s still around - the American Symphony Orchestrs. I went to many of their concerts in the 1960s and they were affordable.

Franco Corelli retired in near full form. When he did come out thereof briefly to make a disc that included a stupendous performance of arias from Massenet's "Le Cid" and Verdi's "Otello", those selectiona were so amazing that anyone who doubted that Corelli retired in full form had to be deaf. Nonetheless, back into retirement he went. That man understood the human voice AND himself.

Harnoncourt retired just 3 months before he died, and his last recordings reveal he was still as mad as a hatter at 85

"Nobody expects Kremer to sound like Mischa Elman" LOL. It took a lot for Menuhin to stop playing, but towards the end he would only appear with his school orchestra - after a series of terrible reviews (particularly in UK) and EMI refusing to release his latest recording (something like the 7th) of Beethoven Concerto with a London orchestra. Even with splicing it was apparently un-usable. This is a very interesting review

Rossini more or less exited stage left of the Opera House at the grand old age of 36 and lived another 40 years! Did some little pieces late in the day but they were not meant to restart the career or meant for the big stage..

Seems to me Monteux is another one of those conductors who didn't crack in old age. I haven't listened to all his recordings but I really like his Beethoven cycle, all of which were recorded in his 80's.

I can think of at least one male singer who quit at the top of his game: Robert Merrill.

A lovely chat David, thank you. A companion talk on composers who knew when to quit may be apposite as a companion piece (not Sibelius, of course!)

Haven't read all the comments here, but has anyone mentioned Gerald Moore?

I know the list would be long, but one great violinist who retired much too late: Isaac Stern

I heard Maxim Vergerov in concert a couple of years back. He played the Saint-Saëns, Introduction and Rondo and the Bruch Violin Concerto (No. 1). It was awful. Probably just a bad day, but it was riddled with mistakes and the intonation was off. The orchestra (Würth Phil) were also very questionable. As I said probably just a bad day, but Vengerov’s shoulder injury has done him no good….

How far did Szell decline from his greatest heights?

I completely agree with your selection and highly recommend the recent BBC documentary on Janet Baker (now on RU-vid), where this topic is also addressed. Christa Ludwig quit because her motivation was to do justice to the composers she interpreted. As soon as she felt she was no longer able to do so, she retired. That’s integrity of the highest order. Elisabeth Schwarzkopf could be added here as well. Like Ludwig, she also taught extensively after retirement. You may wish to make a similar video, Dave, about artists who do not know when to stop: Domingo, Argerich and Barenboim come to mind. I would like to add Blomstedt to the conductors who show no sign of deterioration, despite their advanced age. On the contrary, it’s as if music is their elixir. His recent Beethoven VII and Schubert with the Berlin Philharmonics left me speechless. Brendel also retired when he was still at the height of his powers. Sadly, his farewell performance in Berlin was the first and only one I saw live. Singers praised for their longevity are usually basses and baritones: Matti Salminen and John Tomlinson come to mind. Lauritz Melchior also sang well beyond his prime, but still with remarkable prowess. On a related note: Dave, would you consider making a video of the ten best recordings of Barenboim, like you did for other conductors? It’ll be fascinating to know your favourites. Thanks for another thoughtful contribution. 🙏 I knew Rosa Ponselle from a conversation with an elderly gentleman who comforted me for being too young to have experienced Kleiber by saying that he felt the same in his youth, when another elderly man told him that the Aida they had just seen was the best since Ponselle in the 1920s. :)

Hi David, this is a very interesting topic indeed. Since you mentioned male opera singer, one that I can think of is Franco Corelli he left the Opera stage fairly early and at his prime

Heifetz’ last recital at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion is very moving in its way. There is a bit of deterioration in his legendary intonation, but it doesn’t matter. A soprano who retired (mostly) at her peak was Kathleen Battle, although not voluntarily, from what I understand.

Stokowski was amazing, no doubt. Maybe it was yoga. I understand in his latest years he was physically frail and had to be assisted to the podium but once the music began he was acute and ready. Klemperer should definitely have quit before he did. Those late Mozart operas or the Walkuere Act 1 are deadly, horribly slow and heavy. Toscanini got more rigid, less flexible than he had been earlier. But on the exact same day as he recorded that Haydn 94, he also did the Mussorgsky Pictures that you have praised. And his last season had perhaps his finest recorded Eroica and one of his greatest concerts, released by RCA, of the Verdi Te Deum and Boito Mefistofele Prologue done a couple of weeks before he retired. Beecham also kept it together to an amazing degree. His EMI Carmen may not have the vigor and schwung of his Met performances of the 40s but it's consistently elegant, polished, alive like no other though some may prefer a slightly less ladylike Carmen than de los Angeles gives us.

LEOPOLD!!!! That’s how he got players to do what he wanted.

Great video ( as always ) - I have a request : Could you please do a video about Artur Rubinstein best recordings with orchestra ? He did the standart works several times in the studio. I would really like to know, which one to pick.

Szell was consistently good right up until the end of his life. There are numerous broadcasts with Cleveland and also Vienna Phil from his last three years that are marvelous, including that Sibelius 2 from Japan a month before he died.

As always a fascinating listen. Might I add the name of Gundula Janowitz? Again she had a relatively limited repertoire (Bach, Mozart, Schubert, Strauss mainly) and an effortless technique which never seemed under strain. She retired at a relatively early age and left behind a representative but far from extensive discography. I have always thought her an artist of great integrity who quit when she was ahead.

Regarding Christa Ludwig's artistic integrity: she was originally booked to do the remake of Das Knaben Wunderhorn with Bernstein for DG and the RCO, but rejected when she realized she would not be able to match her voice from her previous recording with Bernstein and the NYP. From what I've heard from your other videos, this attitude seems rather rare considering the number of artists who continually rerecord the same repertoire with declining quality and without considering their previous work.

Teresa Stratas appeared on 'To Tell the Truth" in `1962 when she was just starting out at the Met. The video is on youtube and worth a look. She fooled the panel because of the pronunciation of "Don Jose:".

I actually think it was a shame not to give Ponselle ' Adrianna Lecouvreur.' After all, other illustrious sopranos had sung it before and would after. She might have sung it superbly and it would no doubt have settled down those dissenting voices after her performances as Carmen which had been severely contested . She had sung Montemezzi ' L'amore dei tre re' and ' Fedra' by Romani among other verismo style works to great effect. I am not sure these works were any more mainstream or appreciated than Adrianna at that time? Janet Baker ... I was fortunate to be taken as a birthday treat to ROH to hear the opening night of Gluck's Alceste in which she gave a great performance. The ' Full Circle' book is a good read about her last year in opera , but infact she did still record and sing in concert for a few years after that. I believe she wound down her singing with one last St Matthew Passion, a work she liked to sing every year if possible, around 1987/88. A gift to us from this Indian summer was a late CD of French songs which includes Faure's cycle ' La Chanson d'Eve'...a piece she had never recorded before. She is on a video somewhere saying that the decision to finally stop singing in public , although always an intention to leave while she was at the top of her profession, was precipitated by a struggle to get back her breath support following gall bladder surgery. As you so rightly say she wasn't for compromising the music and her own high standards.

The idea for this video is just terrific, and it is wonderful that you look at both singers and instrumentalists! I think Vickers retired at a reasonable time. He was certainly not in as good voice as he was earlier in his career, but he sounded reasonably well into the 80s. A video about artists who maintained excellence into their older age (essentially, their mid fourties and beyond) could also be interesting! Examples of singers would did this could incluce Bjorling, Ivan Kozlovsky, the aforementioned Vickers, Melchior, Nillson, Tamagno, and De Lucia.

Someone may have mentioned him already, but Ansermet was consistent till the last. One of his final recordings - the Magnard Third Symphony - was one of his best. Unfortunately, the OSR was pretty consistent too.

Really lovely talk, Dave. Made my week alright. Could you do one on great (or perhaps rather more than good) artists who didn't improve much in their recordings? Just wondering about that... Nah, let me improve that question a bit. Who was that steady and good for most of her or his music career?

Hey Dave, great work. How about a list of your favorite/best contemporary composers and recommended recordings? Gracias!

There is a video on RU-vid of Christina Ludwig performing with Bernstein in rehearsals. She is singing in German but cannot pronounce the words quick enough for Bernstein's pace. Bernstein ends up saying forget the words as the audience would not be able to hear them anyway. She is young at the time but still held her own. Definitely mutual respect on both accounts

I read Christa Ludwig's biography on an earlier recommendation of yours, and she said something like, "You can't do anything about it, when the voice goes, it's kaput." About her repertoire, remember, she did eventually record the Marschallin, under Bernstein. That surely was sweet success, after having had to sing Octavian all those years. I think Marilyn Horne must have retired before she lost much ground. (I guess mezzos as a group are especially intelligent.) Placido Domingo finessed to some degree a drawn-out career by switching to Wagner and baritone roles. In fact, he seems not to have left anything unsung. One of the few artists whose goal was to increase their breadth of repertoire.

Dietrich Fischer Dieskau retired before his voice deteriorated.

Going to hear Herbert Blomstedt in a few days. Let's see what he can so with 95...

The way you either unintentionally turned, or had to turn, the talk away from artists who "knew" when to quit, to those that were able to remain their own best version until death, proves me one thing. The artists NEVER quit because they just plainly and truthfully feel they are headed downhill. :) Even those you named - they had other motives to guide the decision. Like Liszt, who arguably quit the touring because he felt fed up and wanted to settle down with his, er, partner, the Russian duchess, in the safety the court of Weimar offered. His stardom was not self-sufficient, and having earned enough money, the man's desire for peace won over the vanity of a virtuoso. I really, really think Heifetz was the only one of those mentioned who did not simply change a career, or go out of business because of conflicts of some kind, but simply - retired. There is a story that after his last recital in California (duly recorded, must have been 1972), he thanked the public and said he felt spent. And walked away. Others have noted some Classical artists who "phased themselves out", and that is also a respectable way to leave, without great shock for oneself or the public. Probably, that is the way it ought to be.

Great video and really interesting. Would you consider Sibelius in this category?

I remember sitting in a movie theater watching one of those simulcast Met Opera broadcasts when they had the Met Opera premiere of Nixon in China, and hearing James Maddalena trying to sing Nixon several decades after he created the role was sad and painful. He literally couldn’t sing the part and had to drop parts down the octave. When he did sing the right notes it was a horrible, unsteady, thin, strained tone. What’s sad is that’s likely going to be the only performance of that opera available on DVD for years to come

I think Marilyn Horne might qualify. She slowed down considerably before she retired. I heard her do Tancredi years ago, I think her last appearance on stage, and she was still good, if not at the top of her form. In my youth I had the privilege of watching her rehearse, and was impressed how careful she was with her voice, never using it fully, using rehearsal time for tempo and blocking, saving the full blow for the performance. She had a reliable instrument for a long time, longer than most.

One day, we need a video on the best names in classical music. A great conductor couldn’t possibly have a more apt name than Gunther Wand.

Yes! Rosa Ponselle!

A couple of months ago I saw Domingo in the American Airlines lounge at Buenos Aires airport. He had performed a programme of Verdi (baritone) arias at the Colon the previous evening. I am not sure what I was more surprised by: his 81 years or the size of entourage (we're talking the head of state of a medium sized country).

So when should composers quit?

Verdi knew when to, if not quit, at least take his sweet time. Even though he spent years on them, his final operas are magnificent achievements; indeed, I would argue Falstaff is one of the greatest last works of any artist in any medium.

I think Alfred Brendel quits when he was still in his prime. Well, perhaps not in his absolute prime, but I don’t think he comprised his standard for staying on the stage longer.

Knappertsbusch still made a great Parsifal jast before he daid in 65

Would you agree that Isaac Stern was a bit like Menuhin in his later years, because it was more about musical values in his approach than the technical finish per say, at least from the 1960s onward? His decline was more gradual that Menuhin, who seemed to lose something shortly after his prodigious prodigy period. Milstein maintained his abilities until he had to stop (due to a hand injury, I believe?). Indeed his 70s recordings seem MORE interesting (and just as able) than previous versions. Szigeti kept going a bit too long after his Parkinson's eroded his steadiness, but was another who was not as focused on the "virtuoso" repertory. Shura Cherkassky kept up his quirky technical prowess until the end, and probably was not MORE quirky musically near the end, because he always was! Stokowski was a miracle. Ward Marston got to meet him in the early 70s, and he told him, amazingly, "I'm not quite sure if I'm awake or asleep until I get in front of an orchestra"! Talk about being born for something!

Alfred Brendel is another artist who quit while still in his prime.

Cotrubas went very early. Was singing in London and was meant to be involved in a gala, but just said nope. I’m finished. Tomowa-Sintow stepped in for her. B

Many years ago I read in the Strad magazine, that Heifetz said to Erick Friedman that he was drastically cutting down on his concerts, because " Erick, things aren't what they used to be" Heifetz was only 55 years of age at the time, and could already see a decline in his playing. He did carry on makeing recordings and concerts, but in a was semi retired way.

Very interesting video, many thanks. My suggestions for artists who continued to be excellent until very old age are Charles Mackerras (because he was a genius) and Ivan Moravec (because he chose his repertoire wisely). Zuzana Ruzickova stopped playing in public because she wanted (in her own words) people to think ‘what a pity she no longer performs’ rather than ‘what a pity she still performs’.

Sometimes you don´t have to quit, if you are fired, like Kathleen "I Survived The" Battle from the Met & everywhere, establishing a legendish diva legacy, good & bad. Then Peter Gelb brought her back, but the glory days are over, for the Met, and her, sorry.

Ponselle recorded some things in the 50s . . . the recordings are horrible! I also would like to see some song cycle ideal lists.

I was waiting for you to mention Dame (I am an ex-Brit) Kiri Te Kanawa.

Can you do a video review of the new recording of Beethoven 6 by Honeck?

Isn’t Herbert Blomstedt still conducting at a high level.

I thought for sure you would say Bernstein held it up til the end, after all you prefer a couple of his 80s Mahler symphonies over his 60s recordings, and his terrific Shostakovich 7 with Chicago was from 88 or 89. Although I guess that one is viewed by some as having slower than standard tempi. You mentioned Winterreise. I’d be delighted to see a repertoire survey video of that cycle, if that’s not already on your to-do list.

Great stuff as always, David! Incidentally, I’d love to hear your take on Klaus Mäkelä now having been announced as the next chief conductor of the Concertgebouw orchestra. It’s not effective till 2027, so maybe he’ll have have grown up by then!

I would make the case that George Szell remained consistent until the end.

I am not a musician, nor a performer. I sing, however, and find my range increased without wobble or hoarseness after age 65 and a slight change in technique. I have sworn oral testimony from two instructors that I'm not delusional. So, I worry and wonder, why those of far more training and attentive practice ie with coach and accompanist, might seek to or have to retire in 40's and 50's? Poor technique, lack of physical fitness for their instrument or the schedule of venues and the travel and the living our of a suitcase? It shocks me to think that the physical means of producing a sound with any instrument would necessarily decline as early as is the case with some of the performers mentioned.

I would also add Pierre Monteux, Charles Mackerras and Kurt Sanderling to the list of conductors who didn't decline at all by the end of their careers. PS: Another more debatable example is Roger Norrington (who wasn't that great to begin with and who I would argue actually improved somewhat by the end).

Stokowski was the Yul Brynner of conductors… creating a fake biography for his career…

Szell and Reiner were great to the end

Eugene Ormandy should have retired much earlier than he did. His tempi slowed down and the music sounded accomplished and polite, but that was all. Once he conducted a piece that changed from common time to waltz time, but he missed the change and continued to beat out common time. Luckily, the music went back to common time and the number of measures in three - fourths time was such that he go back on beat. But he could be a really exciting conductor. I can't do without his Pathetique on Columbia.

I saw Domingo in Simon Boccanegra at the MET a few years back, and he sounded great. Of course, he has managed his voice well over the years, and now no longer sings the big tenor roles. But he sounded fantastic in that role. (But the opera itself was rather boring.)