I recently found. small mulberry growing under (against) a black walnut tree and a wild grape vine is growing up the small mulberry. This was all planted by nature (squirrels & birds). Missouri, USA
Brilliant to describe the orchard as an edge ecology, not purely forest. We learn in Permaculture that the interacting edges of different ecologies are the most productive. Really adds to my understanding of what you're doing! Thank you!
My grandfather and then my father planted fruit trees in our garden and all of them slowly died, they told me not to plant fruit trees but I did anyway. I used this technique 3 and a half years ago, I planted a lot of shrubs and perennial plants and all my trees look great and healthy. Can't wait to design and plant my commercial food forest.
I wonder if its because you can easier judge a perennials health, because they're more sensitive. For instance yellowed leaves, make a nutrient correction, misshapen flowers and leaves, check for pests. Trees tend to be a plant and forget item.
Its all about the soil microbiology, each plant attracts specific bacteria and fungi which all help each other, research the soil food web by Dr Elaine Ingham and compost technology by Dr Johnson. It will rock your world and how you see plants.
As an ecovillager food tree planter in Bali since 1988 using Ancient Future Regenerative Gardens and Orchards, I deeply appreciate how you share your insights. #asifLifeOnEarthMatters
... and add in the odd lost tree tree being replaced with native evergreens, to bring the winter small bird life into the orchard rows over winter (especially). Just love the overall space of your orchard, from aisle grasses and herb layer, even the seeding and layering over the plastic mulch and the more cardboard and wood chip mulch rows. But some day you should get a good crop of mushrooms. :))))))))
Bonus 2 cents: Look for opportunities to work nitrogen fixing or other support species into the vertical layers - Vines, shrubs, understory trees (although in an orchard setting, the understory IS your canopy), Herbaceous perennials and ground covers. Extra bonus: If you have your soil protected and have sufficient moisture, you can readily transform your protein producers into nitrogen by chopping and dropping them (all of the salix genus, poke, etc) This gives you some flexibility when forming your trios.
Have a whole collection of N perennials and shrubs yes even vines. We test for a while before using them throughout the orchard. See our N fixing plant playlist.
When you are essentially duplicating forest edge in the USA Southeast, won't you constantly have to maintain for poison ivy, Virginia creeper, kudzu, wild grape, privet hedge? I'm really curious how this works in areas where those are a challenge.
That's what planting under the trees is about. Fill in the space under the trees with other 'productive' plants so that there isn't a space for those unwelcome plants.
“Look around you, what’s growing on the edge of a forest?” Me in the Chihuahuan desert looking at a Shinnery Oak forest motte: “So……sand…? Should I plant sand…?”
Hey steff God bless you. Have you tried different spacing of trees in all your years seeing how they behave and seen what gives better yields and also want to ask, how does the ground cover affect them and if you have reference to how they yield with or without different species around them? Thanks!
Sorry, I haven't been following you, you may have answered this already but what are nitrogen fixers? I know what you mean by fixing nitrogen, but examples of nitrogen fixers that you would plant would be what?
Another great video. I am thinking about just planting some cowpeas near each of my grape and muscadine vines.(about 12) this year. Thanks for inspiration.
I have some question? Why shouldn’t I plant the same variety of plum or pear tree? If I use different varies does that strengthen their immunity and production?
Most fruit trees need another cultivar to pollinate. So if you have the same cultivar only it will reduce your fruit production. How much this impacts the harvest varies by species- some are pickier than others about this.
Also some varieties are more resistant to disease and pests so if one variety gets hit hard, it can't just spread like dominoes to the identical variety touching it.
I thought the same thing the read somewhere that once annuals bloom their nitrogen fixing plummets and they use whatever they fixed so there is not really a net effect. The tree may give a longer lasting effect maybe?
Are you really going to go into the rows of trees every year to plant, care for and harvest LOTS of annuals? That probably won't do all that well in among the trees because they're mostly full sun crops? With the tree, you plant once, do minimal seasonal maintenance, and it produces nitrogen to share with the productive trees as long as it lives, which may be longer than the fruit trees, depending on varieties chosen.
The nitrogen fixation is just one of the uses. They are even more valuable as an insect barrier among fruit trees. We use them as posts, living posts, living trellis, a source of mulch, amazing nectar source after the fruit trees, the leaves are great forage for some of our fowl, and hopefully soon for a treetop trail.
it's cool that the bacteria's and microorganisms have a symbiotic relationship with fungi and can network nutrients from one area to another area that needs it. nature is cool
Do you think I could grow vines in place of shrubs, or maybe climbing up the nitrogen fixing trees? I love the idea of putting in an orchard like this someday, but I'd also love to grow some grapes and kiwiberries using this method. Edit: nevermind, I just finished the video ^-^'
Its all about the soil microbiology, each plant attracts specific bacteria and fungi which all help each other, (the soil food web by Dr Elaine Ingham and compost technology by Dr Johnson). For those that don't know look them up, it will rock your world and how you see plants.
Love your video, one thing that does not make sense (ecologically) is that plastic. Use a ground cover that lives. Like you say: that just make sense!! Blooming groundcover is a foodsource for so many animals, which diversifies yoir system. that just make sense...
Agreed. I recommend people who have less than 200 trees always use wood chip mulch. More than 200 try using organic mulch if possible. For our miles of tree row we can’t get enough mulch in our area.
@@jacobwenzler3615I think it’s all about time management. With just green growing ground cover plants you will always have the unwanted species invading which you will have to maintain. I have 160 trees and I will barely be able to keep up unless I hire a “weeding” crew. I’ve combined Stephan’s techniques along with the back to Eden approach and my results have been phenomenal. I do worry about how I’m going to be able to maintain it without help because if not maintained it will ultimately turn into a full forest that I won’t be able to even walk through and then old growth forest in my elder years.
It's a legume, but I've been adamantly told that it does not fix nitrogen. Haven't seen any clear scientific evidence either way. But some people are very very sure it doesn't.
Yeah, we've had a black locust on one end of a row and now a honey locust recently transplanted on the other end of that row. But the fruit trees in between are old, certainly there's something i can do to reinvigorate the oldies to produce like newbies with their good old varieties? We're also on the edge of an inland temporate rainforest, if only we could stop the clearcut logging, which is an assault on our continental fresh water reserves stored.
The best ones are invasives. Acacias are the best, and worst. In this clima, and in a land with good soil, already cultivated trough decades, nitro fixer are a waste of time and work and space, and a unnecessary danger. A bag of 50 l of composted manure have more avaiable nitrogen then a nitrogen fixer can produce in its entire life. In fact, they compete more then help the other trees. Unless one is stating from scratch in a desert like enviorement ( very poor soil, very hot, very dry, no mulch.. ) nitrogen fixers are not needed.
It depends on many things. For starters, where are you located? Mimosa is a good nitrogen fixer, but can't handle cold temperatures at all. Black locust is good in temperate climates, also honey locust. Alder trees fix nitrogen. Something that grows where you are is better than something that doesn't. Antoniomatos statement that the best ones are invasive just isn't true. Again, how are you defining best? Many people might say that being invasive eliminates a candidate from a 'best' list. Fast growing trees like alder give you more potential to chop and drop for mulch than a slower tree, even if the slower tree fixes more nitrogen by some measure. You want something that grows well where you are, will stay healthy and produce significant growth and leaf drop to help with returning even more nitrogen to the soil. And you always want to have natural processes adding nitrogen to your soil, always. It's possible to have too much nitrogen - but you get there by using that 50 pound bag of composted manure, not by having too many nitrogen fixing plants.
@@peterellis4262 well, dont know where/wich clima he is in, but he asked for nitrogen fixation. Acacias do it, a lot. Still not as much as bags of manure... Nitrogen fixers in orchards better use anuals and small bushes, they work faster and compete less. This trees are not "support" trees, they are pioneer trees. In a prodution orchard in a temperate clima they are contraproductive. In a professional productive orchard the main deal breaker is time. Work time. A bag of 50 l of manure values about..half an hour of work? In a 20 year lifespan, lets say you spend about 20 hours working on one of this "support" trees (planting, prunning, etc). Thats equivalent to 2 cubic meters of compost/manure...in value (time x work x money). What do you think does better to the soil, and the productive trees? An alder or 2 cubic meters of compost? I would say the apple tree is starting to decay before the alder start to compost... he could have one more productive tree there, instead of an unproductive one competing for light, water and nutrients... We are talking about food prodution, a produtive orchard (in a temperate clima), and this is specially true for comercial prodution.
Pears are my biggest challenge here. Peaches grow like weeds. Apples are slow but will thrive with patience. Pears are proving the biggest challenge. I'm going to add cherries next. Still trying with pears because we love pears. However, fungal disease and humidity are making us work for it.
Wich are your favorite nitrogen fixers for small fruit trees or shrubs in your climate? I live in Germany, so we are somewhat similar at least with the light hours. We have horses around, so locust is not for us in that spot. Thanks for your informative videos!
Hmm...this would be interesting applied to the native flora of this semi-arid, subtropical clime, growing myrtillo cactus (gets up to 7 feet tall,a little smaller than the Opuntia indicus(prickly pear)and maybe adding some pitaya(long, tall cacti, when it flowers, the fruit at the top is similar to the prickly pear's fruit but round and similar in taste to dragon fruit, which in spanish is pithaya, the difference in spelling is to differentiate easily between both fruits. Thanks for sharing your Permaculture Orchard design secret Stefan, 👍and greetings 👋from Querétaro.🤠
You’re welcome, you have many plants to try, including your hardy nitrogen fixing trees (mesquite,..) which often are the nursery trees for other plants to get started in their shade. Check out Geoff Lawton’s greening the desert site in Jordan videos.
Is there a low growth nitrogen fixing tree or bush instead of something like pervasive Black locust? What about Comfrey, is that helpful of more of a problem? THX for all you do.
@@DustySplintersseaberry will love your area. I suggest getting some of the cultivars that have less or no thorns. Also don’t forget they need a male for pollination. Bonus they have a marketable berry crop of superfood!
Unfortunately, around here, there are so many invasives, that people need to be careful with the idea of looking to the edges of forests. I'm not saying it has to be just natives, but be sure it's not invasive, either. I know apples are not native, but I have quite a few; I also have American persimmon, blueberries and pawpaws which are native. Honeysuckle runs rampant wherever it can get a toehold here, as do many other imported plants. Nurseries aren't much help either; many sell plants that are invasive. I bought a butterfly bush thinking it would be good for the pollinators. When I got home and read up on them, I learned of their invasive nature...grrr. God help you if there is a Norway maple anywhere around you. I spend countless hours pulling seedlings from every square inch of garden space I have. There are varieties of most plants that are safe, but just please look into it before planting. For example, goumi is safe, but Autumn Olive is not, even though they are very closely related. Sugar maple and red maple are great; just please don't plant Norway maples!
I watch you like a kid listening to a story. You could tell me about finding sand in the Sahara and I bet it would be fun. Btw what are those lines at the top of the trees visible in the drone footage? Tx
Ah, okay. That's good for me. How does doing a trio format on the contour of the land sound? Also, it's a North facing slope. I've heard that's not ideal, but I have read that it can help with trees that blossom early like peach and plum.
@@shanemillard608this is what I have. Its so darn hot here in the summers that Im grateful for the little hill shading I do get. I have dug a couple of swales above berms to hold a lttle extra moisture from the winther rains. Not every row, but a couple after I had already planted. If I were starting over, I would dig a swale on contour, then a berm below it and plant on the berm. And repeat for each row.
Correct, even apricots. Contour works as long as not too dense to form near hedge as it will stop airflow and create frost pockets. Plant the trees with a bit more spacing.
I wish they produced longer and less frequent. Lol. I had an abundance last year. Had to give some away. But I don't mind that. I get my fix. Being on a keto diet it lets me enjoy spaghetti, Alfredo and other things that I can throw that in instead of carbs.
@@wesh388 Can you provide a link? It's definitely a legume and they are typically nitrogen fixers. Can you share your source for the evidence that it does not?
At some point it's really OK for us to go ahead and follow our intuition and see what the result is, rather than always relying on the research and word of others! Go for it! Redbud is amazingly beautiful, and has edible flowers too.
@@peterellis4262 from the USDA Forest Service, talking about the American Eastern Redbud: "Unlike most other members of the Fabaceae, eastern redbud does not form root nodules and does not appear to fix nitrogen [37]" www.fs.usda.gov/database/feis/plants/tree/cercan/all.html#:~:text=Unlike%20most%20other%20members%20of,to%20fix%20nitrogen%20%5B37%5D.
Thanks for your video. I’m designing small orchard on sandy loam. Wanting to know your tree spacing since I already planted first row of all fruit trees 20 feet apart
The root stock is apparently good for no sprays. I didn’t plant nitrogen fixers. Should I put some in between my fruit trees that are 20 feet apart. I appreciate your advice
@@mikeross3418it sounds perfect for it! Many, if not all modern rootstocks are semidwarf. Meaning they wont grow to their full historic size of their fruit tree. And they can have smaller spacing. Mine are 15' apart, but there are gaps here and there with no planting, so Im incorperating a few fixers for shade and nitrogen.
I would love to know nitrogen fixing trees that arent invasive... im from Madeira Island and Mimosa and Eucalyptus trees are the worst... a true nightmare if you want to minimize fire risk and protect endemic species and Laurissilva forest (one of the last reserves in the world with milions of years).
Most invasive ones are invasive and aggressive until they have changed and prepared the soil for the trees best suited to the area. We mostly are not willing to wait until they have finished the work.
