It kinda sounds like the embarrassing failure of the Kamarag was what drove the klingons to just give up temporarily and say "screw it, let's just make a BIG bird of prey.'
The problem with the K'vort is that I don't see any illustrations having a ton of weapon installations on it. All I see is the standard weapons load out. 6 disruptors. (one in each wing tip, two disruptor turrets on each wingtip disruptor and one photon torpedo launcher) If it's a 600 meter ship which a standard Klingon BOP is 60 to 90 meters in diameter (scoutships, B'rel), then there should be TONS of weapon batteries on the K'vort.
@@sonofeyeabovealleffoff5462 Pretty sure the K'vort was more in the 250-300 meter range. But yeah still confusing what its weapon power output is compared to normal B'rels. Cuz if its not really that much more powerful then it kinda makes the whole thing kinda embarrassing (though that's nothing new with early 24th century klingon ships). Then it would just be having these effing huge 60-90 meter long wing-mounted guns which turn out to just be plain old normally powerful disruptors. Seems humorous.
@@sonofeyeabovealleffoff5462 I assume it's no bigger than 350 meters long (the K'Vort) per the Haynes manual to the Bird of Prey. That's still very sizable though. We also see a kind of non canonical interior of it in Elite Force, the video game, too. DS9 Technical Manual does have it at 682 metres, but that only fits one scene, in 'The Defector'.
Ambassador Helmsman: Um sorry sir, we seem to be having some problems here Captain: What operating system are we using? Helmsman: Uhhh, Vista! Captain: WE'RE GOING TO DIE!!!
Honestly the Klingons being behind the curve post the 23rd Century makes sense. Warrior culture took over to the point where the sciences declined a LOT, and added to the fact Klingon Bureaucracy became more bloated and corrupt means substandard ships, weapons and 'warriors'. Even during the Dominion War the Klingons were behind everyone in terms of technology, tactics (The Dominion basically could do what they did but better and make cloaking systems useless), and overall battle intelligence a lot weaker. Section 31 even said the Dominion War has crippled the Klingon Empire to the point where it would no longer be any threat to the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. And frankly its hilarious that the Klingons, who were two generations behind in terms of technology and tactics could do so well against the Federation during the events of Yesterday's Enterprise. Three Birs of Prey should have been turned to swiss cheese fighting a Galaxy-class that was built for WAR instead of exploration, but Plot Induced Stupidity here. To finish off, the Federation even seemed to fight the Klingons with kid gloves while holding their full strength back in the event the Dominion took advantage of the chaos during the two powers' brief war.
Yeah I've said in a previous video that I don't buy the yesterday's enterprise scenario. Now in fairness the tech gap does narrow with the vorcha and negh var but even then the klingons were behind in so many other ways.
Got to remember that in Yesterday's Enterprise, during the battle at the end they were holding back to avoid causing further instability in the rift....at least that is what I gathered. Also the Feds didn't go full out in the war with the Klingons on DS9 because they knew they needed the Klingons at full strength to use as fodder for the Dominion War. I think if the Federation had gone all out, they would have easily defeated the Klingons like Worf and his brother thought.
The Raptor is particularly egregious because Romulans aren't generalists. Everything they do is designed for a specific purpose, even if that purpose includes a high degree of versatility, like the D'Deridex. The only way the Romulan Star Empire can match the ferocity of the Klingons or the industrial juggernaut of the Federation is to project power on an asymmetrical basis.
To be fair Starfleet defences, and Star Trek defences in general, basically rely on having strong shielding, unless it’s the Defiant. Once the shields are down, one or two photons will turn you into a debris field. A similar weak looking spot exist on the D7’s neck. And you know, the Crossfield class has a functional reason for those saucer cutouts - it needs to spin for its -fidget spinner- spore drive to work.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely greatly well done and very well informatively explained and executed in every detail way shape and format provided by you on the Bottom 5 StarShips and Vessels of your list, A job very wonderfully well done indeed Sir!👌.
This was very informative. Particularly of ship classes of the 'Lost Era'. I really enjoyed the Kamarag, to be fair, the Ambassador of about the same time also had its issues, but was far more ambitious. I didn't realize that the Ambassador had been released that early in the 24th Century. Really, the later Klingon cruisers are also capable, but comparatively small and lacking next to Starfleet's heavies. Being cheaper isn't all bad. The Raptor brings at least some of the power of the D'deridex with a bit more speed at the expense of losing the utility of the shuttles, fighters, drones, torpedoes and whatever else the bottom half of the D'deridex is meant to have but never really got shown. Having a smaller version of the big, multipurpose battleship so as more area could be covered isn't all bad, even if the ship loses more than it gains. Still, better options were possible. Given the Borg issue, I'd give the Intrepid class something of a pass, Starfleet didn't have the luxury of being quite so stringent in throwing ships together. The Defiant class having its own issues severe enough to shelve its own program for awhile. Both classes really ought to have been NX classes until the issues were ironed out. In the end, the Intrepid was a worthy, multirole class, I really enjoyed seeing it compared side to side with the New Orleans and was struck with the similarities.
I think the Raptor was needed in order to bolster the Romulan fleet's capability, as they essentially had out of date Birds of Prey (smaller frigates) complementing enormous but underpowered D'Deridex Class Warbirds. The Romulans needed a light cruiser/destroyer type ship, and the Raptor was it.
That is true. But equally given that your fleet is built around the d'deridex either your going to build derivatives or smaller craft that can be carried by it.
While in reality the producers of the show could easily have just split a D'Deridex model in half in order to create more variation for the Romulans, they probably thought it was just too obvious for Trek fans and decided not to do that...though creating a V'Melak model would have been nice, as that ship would have nicely filled the light cruiser/destroyer role
The question about the Raptor is if it would have fared better if it really was like a Nebula or Miranda and had that ability to use a modular mission pod. A weapons pod for combat, a sensor pod for surveillance, a habitat pod for transporting “military advisors.” Things like that. Then it could’ve been their Nebula-class. Instead, it’s too big to be a scout and too underarmed to be a battleship.
Interesting choices; I see all they were among the major Alpha/Beta quadrants powers; which makes sense given it'd be unfair to bring up a ship from a species that just achieved warp drives. Still I'd also consider the *_wooden_* Bajorian sail ship & anything Malon.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 ; Once, but how many times could it retain such actions before wear, tear, strain, and natural decomposition causes a hull breach. It's a ship, not a cannon ball.
@@occultatumquaestio5226 Probably a fair while, I would bet. With minor upkeep, like most other ships, my old 28ft sailboat from the 70's is still sailing like a dream, and I still trust it in the exact same conditions I would have the day it was made (I wasnt alive then, just fyi). A ship that simply sailed on light likely would only undergo very little stress under normal operating conditions. Of course if you hit some insane gravity well or some other forces which would put excessive strain on the vessel then it might be destroyed outright, but for what it was designed for, it was pretty ingenius.
That's what I said when I first saw the E-C in Yesterday's Enterprise. For a good many episodes we were treated to what the C looked like on the Wall of Enterprises and I found the blended design that Andrew Probert made by taking key aspects of the Excelsior and the Galaxy and combining them to come up with the Ambassador class. As a result, we got to see a definitive lineage progression at play on that wall. I understand that budgets were tight and the script was rushed and this led to the simple shapings that went into the C we got but this all could have been averted and the Ambassador class could have made a few cameo appearances in the series if she'd been built from the beginning and as such we could have gotten the C Probert intended... The Raptor probably could have been better served if the Class had been fitted out as a carrier. If the fighter craft we saw in Nemesis were a generation ahead of what may have been available to the Rommies then a ship the size of the Raptor could have carried a veritable swarm of them. Any foes that this lumbering behemoth couldn't get a bead on then the fighters could either harras it back into a good firing solution or if it's small enough then they could sting them to death.
good vid. here is a challenge for you - design your own ship for each of the powers 1) Federation 2) Romulan 3) Klingon 4)Cardassian 5) Dominion What would it look like - what its purpose ect ect ... would also be good to look at a ship to compensate for some weaknesses of each race.. could be fun.
I love that the Ambassador made it into both your top and bottom 5 videos 😆 Also, I really like the Netel design. Very much has a similar shape to the Hideki and it looks rather like a trilobite. Love your channel! Thanks!
Its interesting to meet someone else appreciating both historical military hardware, and also sci-fi future starships. My own watch history is litered with many Tank Museum views, followed immediately by something futury.
Afraid I'm going to disagree in the Intrepid. The system were new and fairly experimental, but ultimately, Voyager managed it's 70k LY journey without serious break down. Everyone makes a lot of the bioneural gel packs getting sick but I can only recall that happening in one, maybe two episodes and while it made the ship maintenance heavy, again, Voyager travelled 70k light years completely unsupported when most Starfleet ships are only designed for a maximum of three years unsupported operation. I do agree that it was a ship that was too expensive for what it is, probably only able to be built in the best yards and probably wasn't the fastest to construct. And from what we can infer from DS9 with the Bellerophon, Starfleet was desperate for ships that could do the "fast courier in a hostile environment" role, which the Intrepid was kind of born for, but there just weren't enough available. These are significant down sides, but the same could be levelled at the Defiant class, perhaps even more so, and was a ship that was WAY more unreliable than the Intrepid, in fact, the Defiant was so unreliable Starfleet canned the development, and only the necessities of war made Starfleet fix it, so I think you've bashed the Intrepid a bit unfairly. Interesting thoughts, but still unfair for me.
I have to agree. Voyager proved the design even in the most extreme case. On top of being filled with a lot of experimental technology and fused with Borg technology as well. To make a trip across unknown space and dealt with threats no Federation Officer has ever witnessed. To top it off. Gave the finger to the Borg Queen (even though fans try hard not to talk about the issues with the Series Finale). Plus it isn't a bad-looking ship either.
I agree, while normally I would trust Venoms technical explanation on why certain ships just don’t work; for the reason the intrepid doesn’t work and is a bad ship is more opinion based then, based in any real opinion of technical deficiency and over dependence on immature technology, but isn’t that what most Starfleet ships do? The galaxy class was built from a collection of designs that had been tested previously but with brand new elements to say the intrepid doesn’t work because it’s built on brand new technologies that are at the cutting edge is immature. If he were to say he doesn’t like the ship because of the way it looks I could understand that
But to say it doesn’t work, because the technologies are immature and then the cells don’t need to fold up is a technobabble infested explanation as to why he doesn’t like it. He just doesn’t like the way it looks. It has nothing to do with the technology of the ship voyages performance was nothing, if not exemplary in the Delta quadrant, and from what we see the Bellerophon, they were highly praised enough to have admirals using the intrepid as flagships. To say the technology is immature and untested so the ship is bad makes no sense. And also could be leveled at any technological advancement made in human history especially with the NX class
The Raptor is a design from the first Armada game and there it is used as the siege or heavy torpedo cruiser. As such it has a clear role in Romulan fleets.
We want more BORG vs FED videos. I know it takes time amd money, but we all appreciate your hard work and love for the brand 💯 these are hard and trying times for star trek fans. Due to the current regime of star trek writers and producers attempting to change the Star Trek brand till its no longer recognizable. You my friend are our light in the darkness. You my friend are getting us through the dark times of the current Star Trek regime. Until the current regime of writers & producers of Star Trek content is replaced with writers and producers with a better vision. Venom geek I am grateful for what you do and as soon as I can I'm going to get back to my support for you financially. God bless you and keep you
What you said about the Entrepid reminds me a lot about the german tanks (and other tech) of World War II. Overdeveloped and thus more hindrance than advantage. The Raptor gives me the impression that they wanted a D´Deridex for less material. Ah, you too came to the budget conclusion... basically they wanted more ships by sacrificing some ship.
The U.S. Navy's strength has been compromised by the *exact same* design choices. More tech = fewer ships/aircraft = weaker military force. If the U.S. was in a war against someone who could fight back, a lost ship could not be replaced for several years.
@@chrisortega7521 Yup. Amazing how we went from being prepared to pump out ships every few weeks to not being able to replace even one for several years.
@@TimothyChapman the U.S. hasn't needed wartime production facilities for nearly 82 years. I can't imagine what wartime production could be from Ford, Chevy, or G.M. now adays.
@@chrisortega7521 I think we do need wartime production considering the aggression of China, Russia, and North Korea right now. If we shall have to fight a war against those nations, we must have the ability to win said war!
No Oberth? Flawed from the very beginning. A couple of pot shots and it blows up. Under-powered, outgunned, shitty defenses, slow. Sure it had the ability to do a wide variety of missions thanks to the cargo/sensor boom that was connected to the underside of the ship, but that certainly doesn't make up for it's serious shortcomings. Then there are the Hermes and Freedom classes. Don't get me started one how bad they were.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Only the Zumwalt herself is officially accepted into the US Navy. The second ship, Michael Monsoor, is commissioned but not yet accepted into active service, as her weapons systems are not fully integrated. This process has so far taken over 3 years. The Lyndon B. Johnson is currently under sea trials. Also, the ships have advanced 155mm guns, but only about 2 dozen rounds have been produced, with the procurement of further ammunition cancelled, making them no better than 100+ ton wastes of tonnage. This leaves them around 5000 tons heavier than an Arleigh Burke class, but with 16 less missile cells, no usable guns and no torpedoes. Edit: they also lack dedicated CIWS, or any autocannons for close protection from small craft. My stats are for a block IIA or III Arleigh Burke.
Where does the film show this? The Enterprise-B bridge was a re-use of the Enterprise-A bridge set - wIth all the same old "duotronic" computer screens and controls - without the TNG-era "isolinear" LCARS. Admittedly, they did add a spiffy MSD and they did get rid of the embarrassing 8-bit transwarp monitor. Also note that Scotty completely failed to recognize isolinear chips in TNG. He'd never seen anything more advanced than "duotronic enhancers" before - even as an "Engineering Captain" in the Excelsior starship design team - he was skeptical whether "these fancy new [isolinear] things can even be trusted".
@@pwnmeisterage in deflector control, kirk is having to swap out isolinear chips and hitting buttons to get the deflector to fire the beam. They are a bit bigger than TNG isolinear chips, but they are designed to look just like them. They arnt the old duotronic flat squares.
@@MercShame I've always believed that the clear chips Kirk used to reprogram the deflector dish on the Enterprise B were indeed duotronic circuitry-based, but in a more advanced, "optical"-style format.
@@charlestaylor253 Likely the "Duotronic Enhancers" Scotty was talking about. Which, if we can make some big guesses, were essentially big chips holding massive subroutines and program extensions, while the main programming was still in much larger format and only semi-removable at best. Isolinear chips seem to hold whole programs or large chunks of them that auto-load/auto-configure as soon as they find their respective software somewhere in the network, then generate their effect within the hardware they're mounted to. If we can then say that the chips in Generations were, indeed, these "Enhancers," then Kirk was likely swapping an entire program or subroutine over from one piece of hardware to another, re-routing the program's functions (likely some kind of automation effect of power routing) by physically installing it in a different section of the over-all assembly (the dish). While the main program for power routing automation of the dish was still in the ship's computer (or, should have been - it was going to be installed next Tuesday, remember? Lol). Translate this to Isolinear chips, and the entire power routing program for the dish could be anywhere. You could have the main program located in a computer station there in the dish's bay, while having a secondary backup program "on disk" in the ship's central computer. For normal operations, you can have the Main Computer run everything. For special things, you can switch over to "local control" and turn the MDD from a shipwide Metropolitan Area Network to a Local Area Network, isolate the dish's functions from the Main Computer, and run your special program from the computer station in the Dish Bay, thanks to the enhanced processing power and storage capacity of the Isolinear chip. This, above, is just a guess from former Network guy with a useless computer degree.
Methinks you're too hard on the Klingons, mate. Their ships' power to mass ratio is insane. How else could the situation in "The Defector" be explained? Forget the DS9 TM. You know it oversized the K'Vort, but it also screwed up the Warbirds' size and likely mass. Even with the big, empty space in its hull, if the "whole" parts of the ship itself have even half the density of a GCS or Intrepid, 3D models clearly show its sheer volume points to a mass of 10-20 million metric tons. The trio of K'Vorts and the Enterprise were grossly outmassed, perhaps by a factor of ten; and yet, they were enough of a match to scare the Romulans into retreat. That says quite a lot about the Klingons offensive tech. They hit WAY above their weight class.
Nah, the D’deridex is a massive glass canon a Galaxy on its own would be a massive challenge even for two of the ships add in a the trio of bird of preys it’s a mutual kill easily. There’s a reason why after the Dominion War Romulan starship design diverges in a completely different direction
IIRC The Armada series RTS that featured the Raptor class has the Romulan artillery ship. It could be that the Raptor is meant for planterary bombardment, to translate the game version to the Greater universe
just a thought: you base the estimations on what we see onscreen. Kamarag may have made sense for suppressing resistance on conquered colonies, stop pirates or other specialized missions. And as you say: KDF at that time was short on men and ships, so it made sense to make more smaller ships to be present everywhere. You don't send an aircraft carrier to fight off Somali pirates...that said, some designs in real life didn't work out as planned - like the Boulton Paul Defiant (WW2). So you may be on to something :)
Or the concept of the Sea Control Ship. Really, the Klingons of that era would have liked the "Small Fleet" concept of the 1960's and 1970's - the idea of that being you had half-size Aircraft Carriers called Sea Control Ships. They had/would have had half the air wing, armament, crew, cost, and all that of a Supercarrier. They would in turn be escorted by half as many ships (a standard Supercarrier Task Force at its peak consisted of a Guided Missile Cruiser, two Guided Missile Destroyers and up to four Guided Missile Frigates - so in this case, probably 1 Destroyer and 2 Frigates). And, in turn, would require a lower rank to command a Task Force made up of them (conjecturally, a Commodore/Rear Admiral Lower Half). The idea was, you could spread out MORE Task Forces of SCS-based armadas (4 ships instead of 8), and each one would have the initial strike power of an Aircraft Carrier (they have twin catapults for a reason - scrambling and launching jet aircraft is a very involved procedure). You can join two of them together and shuffle around their component squadrons so that one Control Ship is focused on fighter protection for the combined Task Force, and the other on launching Strike missions on ships or shore targets, or one focuses on Air Superiority and the other takes on all the helicopters to make a helo-borne assault from the sea, etc. For heavy striking power, the idea was, you would have two SCS Air Control Groups doctrinally combined with one Cruiser Strike Group or Battleship Battle Group on top of that, for a total of ~12 ships per Task Force. It was shot down mainly by Admirals that wanted big ships to match thier small dicks, and politicians who immediately saw the lower potential for graft. That and because of project delays and other meddling, the projected budget for each one was approaching 2/3rds to 3/4ths the cost of a Supercarrier. Really, with proper refinement, it would have been very workable.. eh.
Glad you mentioned Intrepid and the moving nacelles, which always felt like a flaw for me, as we saw a lot of idiots in the Delta Quadrant. Considering the Kazan where around them for more than a year, and encountered Voyager several times, along with Seska, if they’d hit the nail and recognized that warp occurs when the arms go up, then they could’ve crippled the ship by hitting them at that hinge spot, which never made sense to me.
I'm rather glad to see two sensible critiques of Starfleet vessels here. The Ambassador Class at least, had the excuse of being made in an era of protracted peace between the Federation and its peer Alpha Quadrant superpowers. Starfleet did not know of the looming threat the then-new D'Deridex warbirds would pose to that ship, and did not design it to be anything but a replacement flagship for the Excelsior-2s. The Intrepid Class on the other hand, is one of the worst ships Starfleet ever built from a pure procurement standpoint. It's strictly inferior to the incredibly good Sovereign class at its own job and then some (the Sovererign being specially-designed to fight the Borg; the Intrepid was NOT. Not that Rick Berman knew, nor cared.) The procurement savings over a Sovereign for crew and supply necessity are completely nullified by the Intrepid's reliance on new, unproven tech despite supposedly being designed specifically for deep space exploration; two concepts that are diametrically opposed to each other. That is to say, as anyone familiar with first generations of new technology will know, it has this alarming tendency to not always work as expected and especially not when subjected to the cruel and chaotic whims of real world stressors. By comparison, the Enterprise-E is a REVISED Sovereign design with the bugs and inadequacies of the original NX-Sovereign worked out; hell, in lore the original Sovereign itself was decommissioned until its prototype equipment and subsystems were replaced with newer, functional versions found on all future Sovereign class starships, and shaken down again. It's only by the grace of extraordinarily bad, arbitrary writing and copious amounts of plot armor (foreshadowing what Star Trek would become well into present day, sadly) that allows for the most important Intrepid class ship, Voyager, to return home at all.
The way the three ships combined explains the khitomer accords right away . You are basically showing the three ships of khitomer massacre . The big romulan ships the ONE ambassador class as only one exists in canon and the defeated klingons who go on to sign a peace treaty with the federation which leads to the Romulans retreating to their borders. So much of this plays into so many character story lines. Worf's life , that blonde security officer travels back in time , creating a new character becoming the ONLY blonde Romulan in canon. It plays into the Federation NOT developing cloaking tech for the fleet. It plays into the Defiant class gaining cloaking tech ONLY with Romulan permission.
Squire recently did a video of his bottom 5 tanks. I'm pretty certain the Mighty Jingles did as well. I wouldn't be surprised if Spacedock had done a bottom 5 ships as well.
Having something that does the exact same thing as something else except it does it cheaper isn’t a design sin, it’s a desirable trait. If anything that makes the raptor better than it’s predecessor because it’s more cost effective.
The gel packs were an advantage for intrepids to have and apart from voyager while it was lost they can get replacements at a star base if they need them. Intrepids were fast at warp and manouvreable.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 as many times, as it needs to, considering it’s not a galaxy, sovereign or even excelsior class that can handle long-term deployments without going back to a starbase . I would think that because it’s brand new, starfleet would want to make sure that they were getting as much up-to-date Intel on the ship so as to iron out it’s flaws so as to not affect future ships of the class
Great video, can really imagine a new series similar to battlespace based around the lost era books, the tomed massacre, the bretreka nebula incident etc, lots of big universe lore that not everyone knows about outside of an offhand reference from on screen media
@@venomgeekmedia9886 There's multiple lore versions of it by now (The Lost Era novel, the LUG roleplaying game summary and the Modiphius RPG version) all of which have similarities, and in other areas, major differences. I guess I like the idea of taking bits from each, including the cloaked Starfleet ships in a raid (like in the Haynes Enterprise manual account) prior to the standoff and ceasefire of the three fleets. Oh, and I headcanon the USS Aspire from the Lost Era novel as being a Ulysses-class dreadnought ( : (From Starfleet Command games)
I have to agree with the intrepid, it was pushing the tech envelope. It was, as i understand, being built around the time starfleet discovered that warp drive was damaging subspace. It seems to me they had a bunch of half finished spaceframes and wanted a quick and easy solution to get them out the airlock, thus the variable geometry nacelles. But it does seem that starfleet makes any old random design without considering any inherent problems with the design, so its quite in character for them to come up with an idea like "glowy blue brain in a bag" and mass produce it without extensive testing.
What are the problems with the intrepid class? The variable geometry pylons? I could see how that might require specialized maintenance, but it doesn’t present an inherent problem. As far as starships go subspace stresses taken into account. But to say that six years of development is rushed into construction is idiotic at best, and somewhat flagrantly ignorant at worst
I'm going to dissent on Voyager being on this list. Bleeding edge technology aside, the USS Voyager was equipped with the best plot armor in Starfleet.
Yes, there's far too little variety in onscreen Romulan design. And the new ones from Picard are usually pretty small - even 'Commodore Oh's' frigate/cruiser. And I favor the Raptor (both versions) and the Shrike, myself.
It’s a wonder Voyager ever made it through the Delta Quadrant with all the new technology that could go wrong and with no way to replace or repair them. Well, apart from the big red reset button Janeway kept under her ready room desk…
Well thinking on the Intrepid they knew it true why a Mid Range vessel I wonder any thoughts on doing Kelvin Timeline Dreadnought class against Jem'Hadar Battleship
Here is the funny part the Vmelak as Venom Geek Media has said was more of a stop gap training vessel and the Klingons in the early 2300s could not even beat that.
Didn't the Cardassians fix the problems with the Netel-Class with the Netel-A? Heard its also great on toast... ALSO? Finally seeing the Z-1 Nova on screen (18:17)- yeeeeeah baby.
Oberth - blows up way too fast xD Borg type 03 - looks out of line form other borg vessels in shape Intrepid was just way too overengineered - and gel packs were limited in supply everything related klingon wise what has blind spots in the back
My opinion on the Raptor class is it's the same as the what the Royal Navy did with the R class battleship during the 1910s, they have the better battleship and are building a cheaper version to just make a statement.
Never having seen the Raptor before it does initially strike me as being that economic stop gap that is mentioned. I do wonder with its slighter better speed, manoeuvrability (from reduced mass) and lower power output/signature whether it would have been stealthier and thus found a niche in deeper medium-heavy strike or armed reconnaissance roles
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Haha, yes that fair enough - afterall that stealthy deep strategic strike is what the fleet doctrine is geared towards anyway. Can't help playing Devil's Advocate!
I don’t 100 percent agree with the ambassador class being at number 5. I don’t even think it should be on this list because I truly believe there has to be more ships that are worse than a workhorse like the ambassador class.
Your premise is these fictional ships have a real engineering basis where as they are "designed" for visual looks as such they are defined by art/model building budget or what looks good on video/film but still logistically filmable. I guess its a fun exercise but I think a discussion of what the TV Show / Film production team was trying to do; that is story, budget, effects, etc would be vastly more interesting.
true although Gene very much went for a design philosophy of Form follows function. i have been thinking of looking at some of the recycled models for "ships of the week".
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I don't know what his thinking was but much like architect Frank Lloyd Wright it wasn't followed. In fact, the artist part of both of these men overtook "real engineering" practice and practicality. That is it looks pretty, lets try to jam some would-be logic into so it seems plausible. At least for Star Trek its just a fun and interesting tv show, unfortunately for FLW it end up with attractive but useless buildings.
I’m sorry a D’deridex doesn’t have twice the power of a Galaxy class that’s absurd! The D’deridex has consistently been shown as a glass canon, hell I’d argue that a Galaxy is a match for two D’deridex class ships with one not come home and the one that does heavily damaged. If Jean-Luc had made a fight if it in “The Defector” on his own Tomalok would have almost certainly not made it home and the D’deridex that did would be in shambles. The D’deridex is massively oversized for its rather small weapons load which is mostly forward facing compared to the Galaxy’s more balanced load out
The Norexan wasn’t a replacement for the Raptor it was a a replacement and reputation of the entire D’deridex line being more powerful and more manoeuvrable and representing a different design philosophy compared to the oversized and underarmed D’deridex
You condemn the Ambassador class because they didn't wait for new technology and then condemn the Intrepid class because they wanted to push the envelope. Could it have been that they installed the system on the Ambassador because they needed the ships and had expected the system to be ready but it wasn't ready so they built it anyway knowing that they would have to do a refit. In the case of the Intrepid class they could have thought that the new teck appeared to be ready so let us build few and see what happens and then correct the problems as they came up. This happens with initial run of many military and civilian aircraft, automobiles and other product. Prototypes, even when extensively tested, don't show all of the problems exist.
duotronic means the romulans can not get as much intelligence about Federation technology .... but these Ambassador class Ships will be refitted like the Excelsiors ... in the cathegory of not mature ships is the Defiant missing ...
My head canon is the Enterprise-C's Class aka the Steinbeck Version of the Ambassador class was old by the 2330s and were really just bigger Constitution Refit Class with New Warp Drive first commissioned in the 2300s they were very reliable and because of a very heavy hull and space frame could take damage that would destroy a Galaxy Class but were very unmaneuverable and slow at impulse and were better at VIP transport and deep space science missions and being a Battleship in a Battle line but weren't great as Heavy Cruisers and by the 2330s weren't considered multi-role And were all decommissioned by the end of the 2360s wich is saying something as the Miranda and Excelsior classes were still around by the 2370s
A few thoughts: In regard to the Kamarag I'll play Devil's advocate here. To me the smaller, slimmer ships make a lot of sense when compared to the Federation and the Romulans. The Federation packs their ships full of scientific gear that has little use in combat. The Romulans build their ships big as a form of intimidation, to scare the enemy into backing down. The Klingons on the other hand build pure warships, no planetary survey gear, no dedicated geology sensors, no citation observations, just stuff to kill you until you die from it. They don't have to build them big like the Romulans because their reputation as warriors is enough to intimidate and if you run from them you'll just die tired. For future videos on this line, how about major design flaws...for me number one is the detachable nacelles on Disco. Its like they never heard of Murphy's law, if the systems that hold them floating out there were to fail for just a few seconds they would float away and you would be up a creek. My position on this is why TriAngulam refuses to talk to me any more.
True. But equally perhaps the kamarag was built lighter because they knew it couldn't slug it out with its contemporaries. So the agility helps it be more survivable.
I disagree with intrepid class. ( but each to their own). I thought intrepid had a back up computer isoliner, but not as effective , and i assume later ships would be better than the early ones . But thats probably true for all classes. Voyager limits were unique because they couldn't get spare parts from a starbase like the others but the fact they made it home ( in either timeline) makes it the most successful ship ever. ( so far at least) puts kirks 5 year mission to shame.
Your comments about the Intrepid incorporating too many technological improvements is right on the money. This happens in current day ship designs all the time, without naming any particular ships, what generally happens is you get new hull shapes, computer networks, navigational and automation systems and many of these new systems are added to new designs because the older designs could not support them. It will go something like this, hey our new ship's service generators can generate 10% more power than the previous version, the new network design needs 5% more power but has 20% more processing ability than previous generation, oh ... this new navigational system needs 5% more processing power, and our proposed new automation systems need 4% more power and 5% more processing ... someone looks at it on paper run the math and thinks it'll work and they'll build the thing, and once launched will spend about 5 years getting the thing to work properly ... this usually boils down to system maturity and crew training.
I disagree with the Interpid class. It's revealed in Voyager it is a new ship. They had no idea how it would do without testing it. Voyagers mission was never to survive alone for 7 years in a different quadrant. It was to track a ship that is in Federation Ship, a dangerous region but if you test stuff out you wont know how to improve. Secondly Voyager was expensive to make, we see a lot of Yeager class in DS9 so clearly they were producing more but because of the war and the Nova class they decided to quickly produce ships.
I can tell he hates Voyager. He’s giving the Intrepid class more hate it deserves. To take apart all 3 of his Intrepid points: 1. Bio-neural circuitry is better, faster and more reliable. The only downside is that you’re meant to replace any damaged sections instead of repairing them. Obviously the Intrepid class wasn’t deserved gent to operate by itself across the galaxy, cut off from Starfleet’s supply lines. Duh. If you have access to those supply lines, bio-neural circuitry has no downsides. To close this topic completely, when Voyager’s bio-neural pacs got infected and they couldn’t replace or replicate them, they found a solution in only 4 days. Saying that bio-neural circuitry is flawed is like saying a radio is worse for communication than smoke signals because whilst it has a much longer range and can relay precise information faster, if throw a man in a jungle with a radio, it will be useless because it’s batteries will eventually die. 2. Warp-core. I’m not aware of any problems with the Intrepid’s warp core. It feels like he added it because he wanted a 3-point list and has run out of ideas. 3. Variable geometry nacelles have a moving part and it can break - seriously? In 7 years of Voyager, there never was a problem with the nacelles not deploying. In other words, they never broke. Conclusion: he’s trolling, hard. It is the only logical explanation as a true Trekkie would know all his points are BS and could not say them with a straight face 🖖
With regards to the Kamarag, did Klingon technology allowed them to build better? I am nowhere near as familiar as you with the various classes, but can you blame someone whose technology is 20-30 years behind in building a ship that is 20-30 years behind?
Also, if we include some of the Interplay designs/Taldren, etc, then the Klingon design lineage doesn't seem quite so backward. Though most of those designs still lag far, far behind the Vor'cHa.
the Intrepid was a testbed for said systems, how should they wait for something better when they are the ones testing out the new stuff? also considering the ship made a journey of 75000 LY across 2 sectors and still got home should be accounted for, no? sounds to me like the ship was actually very much a success, just saying
Why Ambassador? It's an experimental thing and the Galaxy is better, but it still did the job. Now the Oberth... seriously, this thing. It can do science, but it can't keep it's crew alive.
My top are Nebula Class, Steamrunner Class, Odyssey Class, Miranda Class, Akira Class. Bottom ships are legion with DSC ships, Voyager, too many 'kit bashes'. Too much similarity, as with many 'modern' Klingon and Rumulan ships, all angles and spikes and scratches, all similar.
Wasn't the Raptor introduced by Star Trek Armada as the long range artillery ship of the Romulan fleet, allowing it to sit out of conventional weapons range and ping torpedoes in. Take away the special ability of the game version for the canon version ship and it's lost its raison d'etre. Same thing for the game version of the Steamrunner...
@@venomgeekmedia9886 to be fair to the Steamrunner it was already in the main canon and had appeared in first contact four years before Armada so it can hold its own as an intended ship.
@@Robedon I still habitually tend to see the Raptor as a smaller scale ship, usually, with the Hawk and Venator being the larger, mid-ranged Romulan ships. Plus, Last Unicorn Game's more obscure D'Valek and Meret, among others. Standoff torpedo role also makes a lot of sense for the Raptor, at least.
See I'm the opposite. I kind of hate the majority of Starfleet designs, with the exception of the NX class and Intrepid, which I love. The main reason I hate the Starfleet designs is the saucer&main hull sections would be so awkward to turn, as the mass is so front heavy. The NX class has almost no mass outside its saucer, so it would turn/rotate quite easily/cheaply(energy wise), and Intrepid has its saucer mass pulled in toward the center, it's elongated with reduced mass outside the saucers outer edges. So it would turn far more efficiently. These design ideas are why I also prefer Klingon designs, as they are also better balanced than the saucer esthetics. The Deridex is an awesome design for controlling its mass.
Yeah just because there's no friction in space. Doesn't mean starships can fly about however they want. It's something that still bugs me about the discovery with its awkward extra long engines.
