TIME-STAMPS BELOW: A compilation of my Hot Take series, and other general Hot Takes, including a brand new take that will trigger many people…. What is one of your hottest takes?? 0:17 Isiah Thomas is the 3rd Greatest Point Guard 6:26 The Term “Overrated” is OVERRATED 12:45 LeBron’s ACTUAL Greatest Game 19:26 Garnett is AS GOOD as Duncan (BRAND NEW) 23:46 Hot Takes That SHOULDN’T Be Hot 24:15 Duncan is a Center 27:13 Wade Vs Pierce is kinda close 29:49 Larry Bird was a GREAT Defender 32:58 Players Who WON’T Be Remembered
its too dumb to think garnet is better because he had way less help.. remember duncan won a championship with just an OLD robinson way before those BETTER teammates that you talked about... and dont you think its about attitude?? everybody knows that garnet had one of the worst attitude in the game dont you think its a possible reason why many players dont want to play with him?? completely opposite of what duncan is thats why he had a consistent team who developed with him overtime cause nobody is expecting Ginobili and parker to become a better player.. we can all argue that duncan made his team better because its the game became easy for them just by being teammate with duncan..
and even if you put garnet in the same team duncan had i dont see them winning anything.. Garnet with spurs would never ever stand a chance against the lakers.. remember duncan was the only one who can even stand a chance against lakers with oneal..
I found out about Sidney Moncrief’s existence when I was like 10 with NBA2k MyTeam. From there I researched him (I also loved the card😭), and realized how great he was. Educated my dad and other fans on the baller that was Moncrief. Love seeing him get his flowers consistently on this channel.
This is a beautiful video that elevates players without denigrating anybody else. So many players, in different circumstances, would be viewed much more favorably. You are so even-handed here. That section about Overrated being tossed around too much because of the extreme viewpoints-that are always offset by the other extreme-that’s the most important takeaway. Thanks for more gold, Jonny!!!
I'm a Wolves fan through and through, but I think Timmy D is on another level when compared to KG. True, the stats were similar, but you could argue it's more impressive that Tim got those stats considering how good of teammates he had, which would theoretically take numbers away from all time greats. I think the similarity in stats despite team strength points to TD being that much better. Again, I grew up watching KG and have nothing but love for the Big Ticket
Tim Duncan was dominant on the low block. KG was a great all around player, but he was nowhere as dominant as Duncan or Dirk when it came to putting the basketball in the hole.
KG is probably more well rounded but in my opinion he’s a little overrated, I don’t think he’s better than nowitzki and I sure as hell don’t think he’s better than Duncan. KG got a way more stacked team in 07 and only won 1 ring in the 5-6 seasons they were togethee
@Kevin-tb8ng Dirk was also miles better than KG in terms of scoring the basketball. KG was always a robin....never an alpha on the offensive side. GARNETT lack of scoring ability is why he got ran out of the western conference
@Janon2088 not in my book, Oscar is a legend, but I would say that if Isiah as third is "hot" taking him at 4th is at least "warm". My point is saying that he is 3rd, 4th or even 5th should never be considered as a hot take. Recency bias is unavoidable, but when I hear who some more recent fans consider as above him, I'm a bit baffled.
@@hyabberhaneyes, Oscar was a demi-god beside Wilt Chamberlain of his era. Oscar vs Magic debate is closer than Oscar vs Zeke, because Oscar was better scorer, rebounder and defender than Magic and IT was. Oscar Was voted as the greatest point guard of all time by slam magazine in 2003, and ranked as no.3 GOAT. And for now, he considered near top 10 GOAT and lock for top 15.
Coming from a Duncan fan. You are right about debate Duncan v Garrett. One thing you missed the personalities of the two. I don't think Garnett would be willing to take pay cuts to get those types of players. Ewing was that way an look what happen to him.
@@jonnyarnett did not disappoint. I couldn’t agree with you on the Lebron vs Pistons take. Some of his great performances are overshadowed by his performances on ‘super teams,’ when in reality what he did during first run in Cleveland was arguably just as if not more impressive.
On a talent level yes, duncan and garnet are close, but i dont think that means they would have the same outcomes. I think Minnesota would have saw more success with tim and SA a little less with KG. Tim just effects winning more.
They say that stats don't show it, but I think they do. Duncan fouls less than any other ultra defensive big you can name, and he never turns the ball over. All while being a pure, fundamental defender and scorer, and smart passer.
@@poly_g6068he’s not a scorer and if ur saying stats show it then you should know his usage rate is around the same as Kevin garnett but his turnover rate is higher especially in the younger years. Garnett never averaged 3 turnovers a game but tim did that twice. In my opinion Garnett is a better scorer, playmaker and more versatile defender. They were drafted 2 years apart and retired the same year so that DPOY speaks volumes. He’s also a better rebounder
@@Sam-oe4dt Lmfao, Garnett averaged 3 TOs per game twice. In the playoffs he even averaged 4 TOs multiple times. if Tim Duncan isn't a scorer then Kevin Garnett can't be either. Timmy averaged more points on higher efficiency. Both regular season and playoffs. 20ppg big man is a good scoring big, don't care what you think.
There's another aspect of it, and it's Duncan's humility. The guy gave the team to Tony after the loss in 2006's playoffs, when the transition of favoritism and play style on the league from big men to guards was becoming apparent. Manu and Tony were becoming more prominent cogs in the offense, and the Spurs won the 2007 chip with Tony being the FMVP; not because Parker was a better player than Duncan, but because Timmy embraced a lesser role. Afterwards, both Tony and Manu would get more accolades than previously on their careers, while Duncan's numbers diminished. That's another way Timmy impacted winning
Generally, you are well versed. Solid video. My takeaways/ opinions: 1. Duncan is in the GOAT conversation, not just greatest PF. 2. Wade >> Pierce. Wade was more efficient, a better defender, had a higher peak and did more with less. The Shaq that Wade had =/= the Shaq that 3. Kobe had nor the KG/ Allen duo. Both had great support teams. PP definitely had shooting efficiency above Wade, but his overall scoring was a tier below. 4. Love the nod to 07 LBJ. That was crazy! It's a finals that he should be praised just to have made. I think his G7 against GSW was overrated, but the 07 DET series? All time! 5. I also agree about the overrated portion.
I respect the Isiah take but Oscar was also a great duel threat. & unlike IT who was one or the other, Oscar could drop 30 & control the game with his facilitating in the same game. So basically it comes down to playoffs, does the extra ring really make up for the massive stats discrepancy?
Oscar was HELLA UNIQUE!! It's very rare you get players who are PASS FIRST but can still average 27-30 PPG. Oscar and Bron (from his SF-point forward spot) are the two that spring to mind. Plus Oscar was THE GUY who put the triple double on the map. Isiah and Magic for that matter had takeover scoring ability as well. BUT Oscar was THE GUY who proved you can average 30 PPG WHILE STILL being the ultimate floor general all in one! Peak-prime wise, Oscar was the superior player. Peak-prime wise, Magic, Oscar, and Curry are the top 3 PG's of all time! GOAT wise, I got Magic and Steph as the top two for sure. After that, I could go EITHER way when it comes to Oscar and Isiah for the third spot. But due to the way Oscar REVOLUTIONIZED basketball and was ahead of his time MORE than any guard ever, I'm inclined to lean a bit to Oscar. People gotta understand it took Magic to knock Oscar off for the GOAT PG crown! A player who took elements of Oscar's game in many ways and put it into a 6'9 body!
I do understand but I struggle with the comparison because of how competitive the era of Isaiah Thomas was. He played and beat MJ, Bird, Kareem, Magic, etc. it’s hard to argue with the significance of those rings in particular
Isiah is better than Oscar literally all Oscar did was put up triple doubles and lose in the 60s where big numbers were common look at Baylor 6'5 38 & 17 rebounds in his best year lol + Isiah's 2 rings should've been 3 if not for a terrible call on Laimbeer all rings were through MJ Bird Magic the holy trinity of the 80s and 90s lol Isiah's rings mean 10x more than Big O having prime fucking Kareem on his team and beating only 1 legendary team the 71 Lakers lol and also the 70s were the weakest era ever, no comparison Zeke over Big O everyday
@@wilt7505Oscar won MVP when Wilt and Russel and Baylor all played. Oscar averaged a triple double. He was miles ahead as a scorer even adjusting for pace. He was also pretty unanimously the 3rd best player behind Wilt and Bill for his era. Zeke was below Magic, Bird and MJ at the very least. And whike yoy mention MJ the Bulls weren't very good the first time Isiah went through them and often dealt with injuries when facing the Pistons and still rook them to 7 games.
That's why it's a shit hypothetical and not to be taken seriously. I understand there are a group of people who believe otherwise, but KG wasn't really going to win anything in SA either. Pop does not suffer fools 😂 he doesn't care if you're "intense"
@JohnSmith-fm3bi What was surprising to even me was the fact that a retired Duncan was still lighting up the Spurs young bigs as a coach in practice with ease 😳 It's evident that Timmy sacrificed his game and numbers big time, especially in his later years, in order to keep winning ships. Even during his earlier years, Timmy was like that. Charles Barkley brought up the subject of studio gangsters; guys who put up big numbers on a mediocre team, making them look better than they really are. I actually like KG but honestly he easily belongs in that category. Also, had the Kings actually taken down the Lakers in the early 2000s, we'd be hearing a Chris Webber vs. Duncan discussion. KG wouldn't be in this story, but he really shouldn't be in the first place. Guys love talking about how KG could play PG but Chris Webber actually WAS a PG with his ballhandling skills. The forgotten PF isn't even KG, it's Chris.
On the Tim Duncan & Kg comparison you would think kg stats would be drastically better considering the talent differential but it was honestly really close
@@John6-40 If I had my choice I would’ve kept him and Stockton on the team and omitted Laetner. However at their respective peaks Isaiah was the better of the two and he has a couple of championships under his belt.
@calebdouglas7622 that's a dumb reason and the reason why you'd fail at that position. You don't put a person on a TEAM that would be detrimental to the team. Yes he deserved a spot but he shouldn't have been on the team for team reasons. You need to learn the term nuance
Haven’t looked at the video yet but I really appreciate you putting videos out right before my lunch hour so I can enjoy lunch even more with your content!
I love when you do these stitched together videos. In my opinion you're one of the best basketball RU-vidrs simply because you seem to still come up with interesting ideas and mostly objective arguments on your polarizing content.
I remember watching that Lebron game with my dad and i was 8 years old and we couldn’t believe what we’re witnessing 😭 My dad even got a notebook and wrote about his experience watching that game 😂
Every time I wanted to speak up about something during this video, it occurred to me that these were all "hot takes", and then I shut my mouth before opening it. Good content.
your isiah thomas take is spot on - magic johnson and steph curry are probably the best offensive players ever but isiah is really close hes the only little guy (6'3 or below) to ever lead his team to multiple chips other than curry
IT has a strong case for #3. He has the FMVP over guys like Stockton, Cp3, Nash, etc. I may not put him there but I don't have any problem someone putting him there. With healthcare today, maybe IT adds 3 or 4 more years. Maybe he is allowed to dribble outside the box w/ today's rules. Plus, Curry got his 1st FMVP at age 34 so Steph's career is even stronger bc he played longer.
@@jlui21Curry and Magic I could see going either way. Thomas, Paul, Nash, or Oscar aren’t bad choices for three. Stockton had a good career for himself, (in particular it sounds like he was a good defender), but one thing all the others we named (as well as Jason Kidd, and Gary Payton) all have over him is that Stockton never finished top five in an MVP vote, and for the most part wasn’t considered the best player on his team at any point unlike the others. Not sure where I’d rank him.
@@fortynights1513 -- Stockton is unique. IT and GP respected Stockton, a lot. Chris Webber? He would watch his rookies get cooked by Stockton. Barkley was jealous of Malone b/c of Stockton. Stockton was basically a 50-40-90 guy who passed first. Coaches even preferred him passing -- rather than score b/c like Nash, they didn't shoot enough.
@@jlui21True. Certainly a unique player, and one that was efficient when he shot and passed well, though some argue he was asked to do the latter too often. He had a good career for himself.
@@fortynights1513 -- Stockton grew up passing first. Even IT says if he played today, he would shoot/score more. If I was to grade Stockton, he's 90% for basically 2 decades. Greats like IT, Magic, Curry are 95-99% percentile while White Chocolate, Rafer Alston, Derek Fisher, Marcus Smart are variable in my ranking at 70%.
Hey Jonny, I really love your videos everytime there is a notification when you upload I consistently watch it. Your videos are entertaining and informative. I love basketball and I love your channel. Keep it up man. More power to you.
I'm old enough to remember Frazier play in the '70s, and I agree that he is underrated today. I'm a lifelong Celtics fan, but I loved watching Walt play defense. His game 7 performance in the famous "Willis Reed returns" game was legendary. Sadly, Cousy is undervalued because he played in the '50s and early '60s.
ABSOLUTELY!! BOTH should be among the top 10 GOAT PG's for sure! Cousy was the 1st true great PG in league history! After Mikan, the NEXT FACE of the league to be quite honest. And was the first PG to bring Showtime flair to the PG position with the flashy dimes he was dropping. And when u factor his solo accolades and team accolades, u gotta have Cousy in the top 10 GOAT PG's. And when u combine elite scoring, passing, and defense as a package, Frazier PUT THAT COMBO on the map! Many consider West a PG. But I consider West more of a SG or combo guard. Frazier was a true PG. Frazier, Payton, and CP3 are the best blends of scoring, passing, and defense EVER at the PG spot!
I'm with you on KG. He did everything Tim did, and with more athleticism and intensity. I actually think the three best power forwards of all time all played in the 2000s. Duncan, KG and Dirk were all incredible and that era was amazing to grow up watching.
Dirk wasn't better than Karl Malone or Chuck. Dirk beat a choking LeBron. Malone and Chuck both took the Jordan Bulls to 6 games. Tbh, I think those 5 are all at the same table. Duncan separates himself with the rings, but they all win 5 with that Spurs squad and no Jordan in the way.
@dericandkhristy Dirk & company steamrolled the defending Champs that year. And if I'm not mistaken LeBron had Wade & Bosh, he wasn't alone. Give Dirk his credit.
Yup. KG had the same fundamentals, skill level, and selflessness as Timmy plus he worked harder, jumped higher, ran faster, moved quicker, recovered quicker, covered more ground, ran the break better, and wasn't allergic to the weight room. The difference between KG and Tim is KG was drafted to Minnesota in 1995. I promise you Timmy wouldn't have won anything either in Minny from 1995 to 2007 with Starbury, Wally World, Latrell Sprewell, and Sam Cassell. Duncan had the best coach, front office, and backcourt in the league for his entire prime.
@@John6-40yeah, pretty much every perennial all-star PF should win 5 rings in that situation, add in Webber, AD, Zach Randolph, Bosh, Jermaine, Sheed, Amar'e, and Pau. Tim's specific skillset, all time great defense and personality didn't matter...
Karl Malone is a definition of PF! He played only that position! Duncan is a center- power forward, Barkley is too small for PF, more like SF ! Garnett nr.2 !?
Sorry johnny cant agree with the Lebron at pf comparrison because Lebron best seasons could honestly be argued to not be at Miami but in his second run Cleveland at sf also he played two of the years in miami at sf and won mvp as a sf in 2011-2012 season so the pount still stands Tim Duncan was at his best at Pf so he is ranked at pf
@@sheli5483 took me a second read to get it. good one. i make this joke because at least once when ask who was the best player he ever saw, wilt chamberlain said meadowlark.
21:01 I had to double-check if this is true because I thought Latrell Sprewell was his best teammate in Minnesota but it is actually true. Wally outplayed Latrell until KG later Minnesota years, he was even an all-star in the 2001-02 season. Might be a good video to talk about how underrated Wally was. But yeah, Tim is a hall-of-fame player, but we have to acknowledge that he was drafted into the luckiest situations in NBA history. Drafted onto a playoff team to join fellow HOF David Robinson and Popavich, got his 1st ring in his 2nd year but he was the star player (not Robinson), then when Robinson retired, Parker and Manu started blossoming into their roles and the rest is history.
Isiah Thomas is the 3rd best PG behind Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson. Larry Bird was a great defender at his natural position of Power Forward which he played his first 5 2/3 seasons in the NBA. Most people remember him from later in his career when he was guarding smaller quicker SFs.
Thank you, Floyd! I agree that Oscar needs to be second on the PG rankings with Isiah third. I also must admit that I have a hard time viewing Steph as a point guard. And being a Celtics fan, I agree with your comment about Bird.
Steph is 2nd All time. First imo. He is a modern point guard. There is no more traditional point guards today. The game has changed, if your point guard can't drop 20 ppg game, you won't win
Hard to choose top 5 PG! We must define that position, before selection! Magic is a hybrid PG, James also! Real PG would be Stockton all time leader in asists! Played in MJ era left him without any rings!
@@mirospajic9929 All time leaders in assists per game 1. Magic 2. Stockton 3. Big O 4. CP3 5. Isiah. Those are a pretty clear top 5. LeBron is 24th, he isn't the same as Magic. LeBron has played some PG, but mostly he is a SF. The only reason Stockton is the all time assists leader is because Magic was forced out of the NBA by uninformed players who were scared of HIV, such as Karl Malone.
Just finished the Garnett “hot take.” Gotta be honest, I haven’t seen one take yet that actually be considered as such. Either every thing said was absolutely true, or a solid argument should be enough to convince most. Overrated being overrated has gotta be the only debatable take so far. Keep up the awesome work Johnny!
I appreciate the honesty Jonny! Especially about your age 😅. I never knew you were just 34 almost 35 years old. But you still had your father’s tapes and watched a lot of games. Obviously your dad didn’t record every game. Not even close, but you still have that knowledge. With that being said, I would’ve personally left that info out 😂. I grew up in the 80’s and could actually appreciate what I was witnessing. You can’t tell me you appreciated what you were watching at 5 years old. You’re a child. I don’t care what you say, you just weren’t watching it with the same eyes as someone who was in their teens. It’s impossible. But you have a wealth of knowledge and I agreed with most of what you said in this video! Kudos! 😊
I love Thomas, I went to the same high school as him (also featured in the film hoop dreams), but it’s hard to put him above Oscar. I think he’s one of the most clutch players of all time. Both Robertson and Thomas are two of my most favorite players but looking at the stats and accolades, I think I’m still gonna go with the Big O.
@@jas7374 I agree that is the main argument IT has over Oscar, and it’s a pretty convincing one. Oscar was never the best player on a championship team, however he was a part of arguably the most dominant team of all time in the 1971 Bucks, where Kareem was the main centerpiece but Oscar definitely put his team on his back in some games and series. Also, Oscar’s game would’ve translated to any era, arguably more than any other player in his era other than say Jerry West. Playmaking has always been the most competitive and unchanged throughout history, plus he was taking jumpers from far out even back in his day. And of course he got many more boards than Thomas ever could.
I believe Isiah is the greatest point guard of all time.. I've considered this for about twenty years. The gamer of all pgs bc he did whatever the team needed to win as the leader.. & won on a dominant championship team that plays defense & ran plays together. On top of the stats. Known as nothing else but a point guard even when he is scoring 40. He is the one who always makes the right play & it works on the highest level.
To me, Duncan is a greater player than Garnett; not necessarily from a talent standpoint, but from an attitude one. He gave the keys to the kingdom to Tony (still during some of Duncan's best years) when the league was becoming more perimeter oriented, and never complained. He sacrificed money, playing time and usage rate for the benefit of his team, and allowed Pop to coach him as hard as he wanted, which in turn made everyone else just as coachable. Spurs basketball was a beautiful thing, but Manu, Tony, Kawhi, and even Pop grew as professionals in no small part thanks to Timmy's willingness to be a cog, and not the center piece
Hey Jonny, Another fantastic video. You offer a way better insight and arguments and more entertaining then Stephen A Smith, Skip Bayless, and any other person in basketball media. Thank you for your hard work.
My all time overrated player is Vince Carter, I don’t understand how no one ever brings him up on some of these lists as for underrated I think it’s Mosses Malone I never hear his name despite being a top 13 -20 player all time IMO
I 100% agree with the Duncan KG take. I have KG as my 2nd greatest PF of all time but I think if you swap KG and Duncan from 97 on the Spurs still win 5 rings and KG is known as the greatest PF ever. What's crazy about KG is that there are people that place Dirk ahead of him as an all time pf.
If I was building a team I'd take Garnett over Duncan. Garnett brings more to the table. Garnett's offensive and defensive capabilities can be used on any team.
@@jonnyarnettDuncan won in every era he was thrown in to. Even when he had a worse team than KG had in 03 he did the hardest carry job and maybe the best playoff run outside of LeBron or Jordan. He proved he could be individually dominant there and he won the title, he also proved he could fit in any era and fill any role. He made the team better even if it just consisted of old guys and role players. Timmy probably wished he could trade old man David Robinson, sophomore TP and rookie Manu for Cassell, Sprewell, Hassell, and a hurt Wally
In looking at Duncan vs Garnett… I would not consider their equal numbers as equal … players almost always have better stats when playing on a bad team. Duncan was always playing with great players with whom he was dividing up the offense.
11:49 I'm 23 years old, and I was able to name almost every old player's full name you showed up until the time stamp above. I talk to my friends who know Showtime Lakers, 90s Bulls, Bird's Celtics, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain etc... They've never known Alex English's elite mid range shooting, Sidney Moncrief's elite defense, and Bob Mcadoo's great scoring. It's not big of a deal, but sometimes I feel old😂
I gotta admit, I do this dumb thing where I basically never rank West because I can't make up my mind if he's a 1 or a 2. lol. I can make an argument either way. I'm might just do a poll, and let my audience decide for me, and then start ranking from there.
@@jonnyarnett Same. For the longest I've ranked him as a 2 but according to basketball reference, he only played that for 4 seasons so he's really a 1. He's the original scoring PG and I think many of us have missed that lol
I couldn't agree more on the KG take. I would be interested to hear a C-Webb comparison thrown in there.... I would, personally, also rank him ahead of Duncan in terms of individual ability.
I 100% agree with your Garnett & Duncan assessment, people forget how ridiculously great KG was. I actually find the Wade vs Pierce debate super close, as a matter of fact I find myself leaning more into Pierce.
Wade's defense is the one separator. Pierce was a better shooter, but that's it. Wade was a better shot blocker, passer, ball-handler, rebounder, slasher, and just as clutch. Pierce was like Melo, that's a better comparison. But I'd actually take Melo over Pierce.
-- Pierce is in the honorable mention of Top 10 SGs. That's a good list to be on. Wade? Closer to Top 3-5 SG Basically, if you get an 90 on your test or a 95, an A is an A. Plus, I think Pierce is a goofball and i'm here for it. it's entertaining and he is entitled to his opinion.
@@a-a-rondavis9438 I agree with you on everything you said, except for your preference of Carmelo Anthony over Paul Pierce... For one, Pierce outplayed the post Shaquille O'Neal Championship Title thirsty Kobe Bean Bryant in the 2008 NBA Finals (on both ends of the court!) Secondly you can proactively plug Paul Pierce in at 3 positions on the court as Pierce started his NBA career at shooting guard in Boston and ended his final seasons consistently playing the "stretch four" position for the Washington Wizards.... So bluntly, I like Pierce's versatility better.... And I favor his 🗑️ trash talking, clutch shooting game over Carmelo Anthony! But to each his own, just stating my facts as to difference of opinion
EXCELLENT VIDEO with valid points! Btw, I too have vhs tapes with games from the 80's & 90's nba finals & some regular season contests that I & my mom recorded. My top 3 alltime nba pgs: Magic, Oscar, Isaiah...
Duncan carried the 2003 Spurs to a championship, KG wouldn't do that I mean look at that roster in the playoffs D Rob 7 PPG, Parker 14 PPG on a lacking 40% shooting, Ginobili 9 PPG on 38%, Stephen Jackson 12 PPG on 41%. Literally it was Duncan and a bunch of good role players none of them were all stars, yet people make it seem like they were and he beat Kobe and Shaq both averaging 25-32 PPG Kobe averaging 32 and Shaq averaging 25 & 14. Also Duncan proved in 03 he could win with lesser rosters I mean it's basically like what Dirk had in 2011 and he did it averaging like 24 17 & 5 with 5* blocks per game in the finals lol. Duncan is him
Bro KG took the 2004 wolves to the conference finals, literally the next year, the wolves, the biggest poverty franchise ever, he would’ve done just as well as Duncan if not better
@@titankiller5287 unlike 03 Duncan KG had an all star Sam Cassell averaging 20 & 7. Besides an old Tim Duncan was going toe-toe with LeBron would've been him twice if not for Ray Allen then beating him the Heat the next year in 5 games meanwhile KG in that stage of his career for a big market Celtics squad would get destroyed by LeBron when he got to Miami and he had prime Rondo, Pierce, Allen stop it
It's unreasonable to just compare the first 979 games. Some players start their prime later and last longer in that prime. Certainly Payton, Nash, and Stockton all started slow with more limited minutes, with the latter two as bench players. Stockton's peak lasted several years after Isiah's peak, and Nash didn't really start to peak until he was the same age as when Isiah retired. Payton also had his best scoring and assist numbers in his early 30's and didn't have his career high in assists per game until after the age Isiah retired. Isiah also started his career as basically the only star on his team, and in a league focused on high point totals. Payton and Kidd both played their best years during the slowest paced, most defense oriented, and most stat deflating era since the introduction of the shot clock. Stockton and Payton also joined established teams with already present starter-caliber point guards and well-established team scoring threats.
But doesnt the fact that duncan played on a way better team his whole career make his stats more insane than KG's, cause he was the only "good" player for the majority of the time. For example:KG never had to "out rebound" guys like david robinson. But I do agree on the point that just skill wise KG could do eveything duncan could and more.
I was gonna point out that you could call Garnett potentially a "studio gangster" (players with inflated stats on bad teams) but at the same time dragging bad Minnesota teams to playoff records, and getting 04 Minnesota to 58-24 (THE FIRST SEED!!!) averaging 24 13 5 1.5 2.2 , and getting them to the WCF is definitely what saves him from being one.(That is still one of the greatest seasons of all time, point blank) But good point I was thinking about that too
But, Duncan had Robinson boxing out the other Center or big man so it also helped him. Defensive pressure was taken away from Duncan too ao he could score easier. And defensively he had someone else who could help funnel players to his side. I see what you're saying but I also think having great teammates makes it easier to have certain good stats
@@mosstwig3591only for a couple years really after 2000 David's back started catching up with him and he fell off a cliff, he quickly turned into just an okay at best rebounder and that was his best rebounding teammate until Splitter. So almost an entire decade where he didn't have another good rebounding center alongside him
I completely agree with you about Garnett I've always thought he was just as good of not better than Duncan and it's so obvious that Duncan had way way better talent around him
The Spurs beat the New Jersey Nets for the Championship in 2003! Kevin Garnett displayed that he could handle the bright lights & big games of playing against the Lakers in the 2004 playoffs taking them to 6 games, even while starting point guard Sam Cassell sustained a severe injury
@@lamontejamison302 that wasn't my point. Duncan carried. Most of the spurs were underperforming, and was basically the only reason they won. I didn't grow up watching Duncan so I overestimated how much it helped having Parker, Ginobili, and Robinson on the same team. Robinson was barely helpful, and Parker and Ginobili struggled.
Kevin Garnett and Manu Ginobili would have been a legendary cohesive, complementing, intense combination on the basketball court! I just don't think Kevin Garnett's "ethnicity" would have fit the San Antonio Texas southwest culture... It was no problem for the low key Duncan, even the military disciplined David Robinson knew how to stay under the radar off the court... I'm not sure if Kevin Garnett would have been able to do the same out there in San Antonio
Hot take I have: Allen Iverson’s first game of the 2003 playoffs is nearly as impressive as his 2001 Finals game. Worse opponent and an earlier round, but far better efficiency and higher volume, and in fewer minutes.
Kevin Garnett had Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rajon Rondo, Sam Cassell and Latrell Spreewell. He also played for Doc Rivers. Let’s not pretend he didn’t have plenty of help. TD may not have been as athletic, and it’s arguable who is the better scorer, but Timmy was a better passer, better defender and rim protector. You brought up KG’s age when he was with the Celtics, but didn’t mention Duncan’s age when he played with Aldridge and a very young Kawhi. I love KG, but I would take TD over KG any day of the week. For that matter, I don’t care what you classify TD as, there is not a big man I would take over him.
People often forget that back in the day information was limited. Players were not as precise compared to today. That is why comparing eras makes no sense as well
Everyone is either overrated or underrated. It is impossible for humans to perfectly rate anything. We are close to rating things perfectly but we never achieve complete success
Exactly, when someone calls a player overrated that will result in that player becoming underrated to someone else. It's a vicious cycle, that's why a part of me also wanted to say overrating is a myth but it still exist it's just hard to pinpoint the overall opinion of the community.
Love the video. Tough on Marbury to call Wally the best teammate that Garnett had in MN though. True Marbury didn’t stay long, but when he was there with Garnett MN improved drastically from Garnett’s rookie year.
I actually think the gap between Wade and Pierce is as big as people say. Wade is a top 30 player of all time at the worst, and he had arguably a top 10 peak we’ve ever seen. Paul is indeed in the top 75 but he’s for sure at the bottom half of that ranking. Wade is top 3 in his position where’s Pierce is probably 7th all time in his. Pierce isn’t even the better scorer despite him saying he is when they literally played in the exact same era and not only does Wade have a scoring title unlike Pierce, but Pierces best scoring season 26.8, Wade has averaged MORE than his best season on 3 separate occasions. When you factor in passing and defense Wade absolutely destroys him, on top of team success and peak Wade easily has a huge gap over Pierce.
I said something very similar in my comment that debate definitely isn't close to me. Offensively it's debatable but wade is the best Shot blocking sg in league history he passed Jordan and also carried that heat team to the chip on his rookie contract.
I agree but I also think Payton is extremely underrated for he could score but not top tier assist but not top tier and was the absolute best defending point guard of all time.
2nd seed for Lebron with 50 wins. Great accomplishment for him and that team. However that's around the time Kobe was facing 50 win teams every round and 50 wins was required to make the playoffs in the western conference
I'm also in my mid 30's. I remember the 96 97 98 bulls pretty well. I was actually a magic fan at that time. A lot of people like to comment on these arguments but never really watch full games. Forget actually seeing Jordan while he played.
The disparity between Wade and Pierce really is greater than you think. Remove their rings and FMVPs, and Wade still beats Pierce by a large margin in other awards/accolades like scoring titles, MVP shares, All-Stars, All-Star MVPs, All-NBAs, and All-Defensive teams.
