My Depression & My Zen 

Excellent video. Those people who get extremely defensive around 'their depression' are what Eckhart Tolle talks about when people identify with their illness, they aren't just suffering from an illness, their identity has become the suffering. Questioning whether their illness can be controlled or cured outside of medication threatens their ego identity, because if you cured the illness the identity would disappear, so then the ego identity fights back. And that's how you end up with those kinds of comments.

I had serious depression in the past. Zen helped realized that it was my body/mind telling me something had to change in my life. I was on antidepressants and they took the depression away but I did not "feel" anything else. I did not like the feeling and decided I needed to actually do the hard work.

Hi Brad. Thanks for talking about this. I've been diagnosed with massive depressive disorder and ADHD. We're talking some seriously crippling mental health problems. I spent years of my life lost in absolute darkness, alcoholism, and self destruction. I've been prescribed the whole gamut of antidepressants, antipsychotics, ADHD meds etc. I hated all of it except ritalin helps me think and remember. Zen has helped me more than antidepressants ever did. In fact, I'd go at far as to say that because of my experience with Zen the day to day effect depression has on my life has been reduced to about 5% of what I've suffered from in the past. I've had kensho, and I feel that it came to me much easier than most people (I imagine it was because I spent years and years doing mental exercises to survive daily life). My thoughts no longer terrorize me or even take control of my attention (usually). Even when the depression comes to visit I tend to see it as more of an excuse to practice vipassana or metta than something trying to kill me.

Great video, Brad. There's been so many times since I first discovered and read Hardcore Zen, up to now, where I thought "man if he was dead I'd swear i was him in a past life". Without going into too many details on why, I completely agree with what you said here. The analogy with your diabetic friends is perfect. There's an Alan Watts quote that I think of often. He says something to the effect of " anyone who goes to a therapist ought to have their head examined".

For what it's worth, the closest thing to depression I have experienced is what it feels like when I do things I don't like to do. The cure, of course, is insight and courage. I cannot always do only things that I like to do but it's comforting to feel like I have some control over my happiness. I understand that people who are depressed do not have this source of comfort.

Dogen in one of his poems says: Joyful in this mountain retreat yet still feeling melancholy, Studying the Lotus Sutra every day, Practicing zazen singlemindedly; What do love and hate matter When I’m here alone, Listening to the sound of the rain late in this autumn evening.

On a similar note zazen has helped me be more aware of my actual thoughts which has helped me with anxiety- i can say to myself "wow you are thinking about paying that bill again for the millionth time in 10 minutes - omg just schedule to pay it or pay it!" Or, realizing i just had an entire imaginary fight with a coworker and am upset about it AND IT REALLY DIDNT HAPPEN! Which now makes me just laugh at myself 😂

I had a troubled past and was put through the psychiatric ringer as a teen, and driven to surviving suicide attempts, kicked out of school and trouble with the legal system. The meds left me with many desires and no abilities, leaning on a crutch most of my life. After surviving the suicide, came off medications and suffered much withdrawal symptoms. Went to lots of therapy, eventually lead to trying the one that teaches mindfulness, in which practice I found ultimate relief, and eventually experienced the ego death necessary to keep it from coming back.

I got a PTSD diagnosis in 2019 and got on SSRIs (generic Zoloft) so I could function in society. I functioned for about a year until the wheels fell off. I had been practicing meditation on and off for a few years but when I quit my job no-notice and went on retreat. I had recurring PTSD nightmares (and still do lol) but one night I had a dream that was an inversion of my usual PTSD dreams. I was back in the city where I was traumatized at a coffee shop and someone I met only once walked in. She said "Not working out for you?" and I said "No, I think I'll leave." and I woke up from my dream. I had never had a dream like that before and so I sat on my cushion with it. During that sit I realized all my thoughts are just thoughts, my dreams are just dreams, my feelings are just feelings, etc., and I felt great relief, as if a weight had been lifted from my whole life. I'm not saying meditation fixed my PTSD - rather, meditation gave me the perspective to see my PTSD as conditioned. How obvious - All things are conditioned!! I went into retreat with your book "Don't be a Jerk" and somewhere you say you realized, at some point, all your thoughts were equal, in that all your value judgements and beliefs were as deep and valid as any thought you ever had about shrimp. Something along those lines. Thank you for sharing again about your depression. Appreciate ya, Brad!!

Thank you for discussing your experience with this.

In British English it's still "mileage" (they still use miles btw); we non-native English speaking Europeans still say "mileage". In Italian, my mother language, I'd say "chilometraggio". As for the topic, I've used some anti-depressants on occasion and they definitively gave me brain fog, weight gain, a mood a bit too high and all sorts of problems. Now I can relapse in some "deep melancholy" state (as I like to term them), and I keep them there knowing they'll be gone by the evening. Very nice talk, thanks

Beautiful!! ❤️ thank you, Brad, for voicing this.

So well articulated and totally relatable.

Lovely. So many of us (I am not an expert) needed this.

Thanks Brad, your wisdom and point of view always helps me work through my issues and decide for myself the best way to move forward. Appreciate every word, somethings may not be for me exactly but good to know and consider.

Thank you for the talk. Really appreciate your honest sharing about your own experience. Very very helpful. 🙏

Thank you!!! This needed to be talked about for a long time and I didn't know how to approach it. A conversation that is VERY VERY MUCH needed. This is said as someone who has ADHD and has taken drugs for depression and ADHD, and who is also a practicing Zen follower who doesn't currently take any meds but has had positive experiences as well as side effects and issues with them. There isn't enough talk about this amongst the whole medical, spiritual, psychological and everyday worlds.

As someone who is definitely not the author of my thoughts i just wanted to say Thanks & Viva Ziggy.😁

Ziggy is always a welcome part of the day❤❤❤ Thank you for your thoughtful response, Brad. It seems the key emphasis on the Kensho question is neither meds nor unmedicated, but rather karma. It sounds like being on the cushion has homeopathic qualities for some people who have both the insight into their distortions and their ability to strip them of their crippling delusions. Stay safe, Brad, and use 988 if your current episode is acute. You are loved. You are admired. You need to write the Q&A Book, please.

As someone who has regular episodes of depression that last for months or even years, I have come to terms (make peace) with SRI. I agree with you on many things except on what sounds to me like a disembodiment of thought, I mean, it's not that I am not thinking straight, it's that I am not feeling the world adaptively. The whole "reality" is lived according to a overall physical tiredness and dispear. The thoughts that come along, are just the correlate. On everything else I think you are right: I eat healthy, I meditate, I exercise a few times a week , or at least I try, to the best of my abilities and self discipline.

internal family systems therapy really shines a light on the phenomena of depression.

Fantastic video, in large part because of how much I could relate. As the kids these days say, "I feel so seen." An insight I had recently (which I have had before and which I have heard teachers say explicitly in talks or have been told directly before) was the "I am not my thoughts." The other day, it showed up as me having a very lazy thought about something and immediately thinking "Oh my god. I am such a lazy person." -- identifying with the thought. "I thought that, therefore that is me." And then I was like "hang on... no, not really. All thoughts of who I am are a mistake in a way, so that would be too." Having been a zen student for a while both on and off antidepressants, I really see the value (while not being on them) of experiencing the understanding breaking through in the darkest of moments "This is not me, this is just thoughts" and the ripples that would have. But good god, not being on antidepressants could easily be a very risky situation for me. In that sense I see a parallel with Bob. This comment has begun to ramble, so bringing it back: I love what you said right at the beginning about kensho having WAY more to do with karma. And I would really enjoy if you did a video unpacking that. Because taking antidepressants or not taking antidepressants, struggling with depression or any brain issue versus having a perfectly healthy head and body, or any other causes and conditions, each individual experience is unique and no two examples will be the same, ever.

Interesting video and thoughts. Thank you 🙏 I am not a medical professional but was married to a clinical psychologist. As far as I understand it (which is at a pretty general level) depression can be roughly divided into endogenous and exogenous. Exogenous (or reactive) depression is the kind which is situational and is brought on by the loss of a spouse, job or other major life upheaval. Endogenous is the kind which tends to come on without warning (although it may also be influenced by outside events) and believed to be chemical in basis (although the serotonin deficiency hypothesis is not yet proven). Antidepressants can still be useful for exogenous depression but may only be needed for a certain length of time. Endogenous depression may need longer-term medication. As far as realising the nature of thoughts and being able to detach from them somewhat, from what I have heard speaking to other Zen folk who experience depression, the ability to do that tends to depend on the length of your meditation practice and the severity of the depression. However, like you say, you can't compare depressions (or the strength of your practice). If you can manage it without medication, that is good, but if you need medication whether for a short time or for life, that's okay too. Zen practice is not dependent on being medication free.

Not adding on top of the depressive thoughts is definitely a huge one. From my own experience, the worst episodes of my depression, as far as I can remember at least, always came about because I got caught up in spiraling thoughts. As for the part about not identifying with your thoughts, I think I'm at the "intellectually knowing, but not quite getting it yet" phase. I *know* my thoughts are just mental stuff and I also *know* that they more or less come and go as they please, I can't decide what I'll think of next just the same way I can't decide what I like and dislike. But putting it into words is as far as I've gotten so far. Guess it's one of those things that take time and practice to really click.

I have a couple of 33 1/3 books (Low, Doolittle, Village Green, Highway 61) and that who album could be my favorite so might check it out

I’ve been a psychotherapist for over 40 years. There is such a wide variation among people, there is no way to give advice. But seeing your thoughts as thoughts is critical for everyone.

Ciao da un tuo abbonato dall' Italia

YMMV is the important part. We each have unique chemistries and experiences and i think its a mistake to assume that what has an effect on one person will have the same effect on another.

That's an interesting topic to talk about. Zen is a form of Buddhism that emphasizes meditation and direct experience of reality. It can be seen as a way of life, a philosophy, or a practice. But it is not a magic bullet that can solve all our problems. In fact, some Zen teachers have pointed out the limitations and pitfalls of Zen practice. - Joko Beck was a Zen teacher who taught that Zen meditation was not a technique for achieving enlightenment, but a way of being fully present and aware of ourselves and our surroundings. She said that Zen can make your life worse, because it exposes the truth of our suffering and dissatisfaction, and challenges us to face them without escaping or avoiding. She also said that Zen can make our life better, because it helps us to see the beauty and joy of each moment, and to appreciate the ordinary and simple things in life. - Barry Magid is a Zen teacher and a psychoanalyst who wrote about the curative fantasies of spiritual practice. He argued that many people approach Zen with the idea that they can somehow fix or improve themselves, or get rid of their flaws and problems. He called these curative fantasies, and said that they are a form of self-deception and attachment. He suggested that instead of trying to change ourselves, we should accept ourselves as we are, and work with our difficulties rather than against them. - Kodo Sawaki was a Zen master who was known for his rigorous emphasis on zazen, or just sitting. He often called Zen "wonderfully useless", meaning that it has no practical or worldly benefits, and that it is not a means to an end. He said that Zen is useless because it does not serve any purpose or goal, and that it is wonderful because it is free from any expectations or judgments. He taught that Zen is simply the expression of our true nature, and that we should practice it for its own sake, not for any rewards or results. - Someone using Zen meditation to cure his depression may find some relief and benefit from the practice, but may also encounter some challenges and difficulties. Zen meditation can help with depression by reducing stress, increasing mindfulness, enhancing self-compassion, and cultivating positive emotions. However, Zen meditation can also trigger negative emotions, memories, and thoughts, and may require facing some painful and unpleasant aspects of oneself and one's life. Zen meditation is not a substitute for professional help, and may need to be combined with other forms of treatment, such as therapy or medication. Zen meditation is not a cure for depression, but a way of living with it.

In the documentary "Maezumi Roshi" they tell that he went to A.A Alcoholics Anonynous. Why he did not just kept observing his thoughts as just brain noise? allan watts, maezumi roshi, chogyam trungpa, alcoholism "The thing about alcoholism is the smarter you are the greater the self deception. The easier it is to rationalise and justify. He was too clever." Alcoholism and drug abuse was rampant in many of the popular Teachers and Gurus that pased. Alan Watts drank heavily. Chogyam Trungpa died of alcoholism related disease. Maezumi Roshi was an alcoholic Adi Da (Franklin Jones) reportedly drank and used drugs. Osho (Bhagavan Rajneesh) was said to abuse pain killers and nitrous oxide. Etc...etc... The real question is WHY these people succumbed to addiction IF they were "Enlighened"? The Crazy Wisdom answer is pure nonsense and is an excuse. While in the Case of Watts and Trungpa, alcohol consumption did not affect their brilliance in the beginning. These are tough questions and sycophants will often dismiss them as evidence of not understanding the profundity of a Teacher/Guru. IT's not that simple IMO. ed This above, was a comment at

Brad, Your experience tracks with my own. Without formal zen training, but after much/some meditation - pretty much the same. Thoughts? Just thoughts … very random. I like your Sam Harris quote too.

Thanks for sharing all this. There's no universal anything. One size doesn't fit all. I have a working memory disorder, so I can rarely remember anything... and that helps with not holding on to thoughts. Thoughts? What thought? I forgot. But that doesn't solve depression issues... only knowing that it ended last time and things got interesting again, so sitting down and just doing something/nothing and being uncomfortable is the best thing to do, IMHO.

I take a fist full of pills each day to get me close to my baseline. If i didn't i would need to be detained.

Yes they still call it "mileage", in Europe and in Canada too, despite the meter reads kilometers. :)

I grew up around lots of mental illness and have noticed the outcomes are worse for those who believe in the power of others, but not in themselves. The psychiatrist examining your head in twenty minutes doesn't know you well enough, and a lot of patients do not tell their psychiatrist the truth, because the drugs make them unaware of the side effects due to this "dulling" effect.

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) is Zen Buddhism.

Sam's not a joke.. Sam's just doing Sam.

It's interesting to see that the idea that thoughts are just thoughts is one of the pillars of current cognitive psychology. In any case, it's one of the pillars of the therapy I'm currently following, and which strangely enough led me to become interested in Buddhism, and then Zen Buddhism. My only question is, do you consider Bad Brains to be one of the best hardcore punk bands of all time? And sorry for my English but I’m French .

Gurus claim that they are free from thoughts because is what believers want and no one can prove that they are lying. "Ancient Wisdom in Modern Times - Deepak Chopra and Sadhguru, moderated by Ms. Chandrika Tandon" 7m0s - Sadhguru: I cannot say much about thought, because I don't have much thought. Most of the time I don't have any thought. Thoughts occur to me only when I want, phisically, do something. Otherwise days will pass for me without a single thought. From my childhood I never got identified with anything, either the family, or the culture, or the religion, or the society, etc.

Ghasso!

If you're veg try a good b vit, vit D, and B12, get your iron levels checked. I was depressed a lot and after a few months of vitamins and improved diet (more protein) the depressìon left.

I too had a depression. I took tô zen for 20 years, went tô retreats, practiced at home. The depression got worse and worse the zen teachers told me tô Just keep zazen. Now I am bedridden and Franklin, I hate Zen.

i think you are taking the position of having answers, or more satisfactory answers and understanding than is the case or even possible

Q: If kensho/satori is beyond words, why is there so much writing and discussion in Zen?

REICHWEITE (how far u can reach ) .. we would say that in Germany instead of mileage .. cheers.. to good health for body and soul .. also greetings to the cute dog

I'm deeply troubled when people claim that only psychiatrists are qualified to have opinions about psychiatry.

Coming from a Chaos Magic perspective, all things are Valid in Practice, just not for every person. In the same way that, I think Leo Tolstoy was Enlightened through Christ, I couldn't rely on another for that enlightenment. And it's the same here. People have tools, and all the Tools work, it's just which tools work for you in a world where we don't know what the Job to be Done is.

woah black monk time!! woak krautrocksampler!! cant get any cooler than that

Ziggy definitely made me happier.

If someone has a daily zazen practice and reading books about zen and buddhism. how important is it that they have a teacher? this day and age it can be difficult to find a zen teacher that will have a friendship or relationship the way you did with TIm and Nishijima roshi

Attaching to the concept of thoughts are just thoughts can lead to an other kind of depression... like feeling non-existing or non-essential or meaningless, like sickness of emptiness. The consciousness or mind or whatever producing thoughts is not personal so it is like you would be a movie character on an empty screen... and sometimes it can be depressing too. Maybe that is a third kind of depression 😄

the evidence shows that SSRI medications are effective for like 1 to two years. Past that time, people who did NOT take SSRIs received therapy or no therapy fared better in all life domains than those who did take SSRIs, therapy or not therapy. Mental health may be a life long project, but these disorders are not "chronic", despite what the disproven chemical imbalance theory purports.

Re Mileage: Interestingly in Germany, we always ask "how many litres does the car need for 100km"? .... Mileage in India, for example, is "how many KMs would a litre give"?....

Listen to your doctor regarding medications. ''The content of your zazen'' is yours to do with and/or disregard as you please. 🙃

In Israel we say "Kilometrage" (in a French sounding pronunciation)

Question- Is recreational fishing and hunting ethically bad from a Zen Buddhist perspective?

I’ve had depression (both chemical & situational), been on meds etc, but the thing that helped me climb out of it most was meditating & therapy, to work through my suffering. Because life IS suffering, despite what ‘Big Pharma’ would have us believe. I live in a country that endorses euthanasia & has had to press pause on this, for mental health issues. Depression is a form of distorted thinking (Right Thought) & I can’t understand why there’s an option to legally have your Dr ‘off’ you within a day, while we still have suicide hotlines, or are so concerned about a person’s cognition before signing contracts such as wills. Seems counter-intuitive logically. We haven’t even considered karma yet. So please, don’t jump down my throat, when I say, my suffering strengthened me more than meds ever did. These are just my thoughts & my experience with life. I’m not diminishing anyone else's.

Mileage in German: Kilometerstand, Kilometerleistung, Spritverbrauch. Right, we can't find our next thought. In troubling thoughts we may ask ourselves: Where can I find them ? Where do they come from?

Can you talk about depression and getting work done that you just.... CAN"T..... UUUUGGGHH! ?

By saying one can't affect their thought processes, don't you deny the while cognitive behavioral therapy?

At least, in French we say "kilometrage"

Ive got a question! First off, I’ve tried antidepressants before and they cut off my pain and love. Not my thing. Won’t get into what exactly zazen does for me but I’ll just say it’s incredibly powerful. Anyways someone I know of recently commited suicide and I can’t help but feel she didn’t have to, if “only” she knew about Zazen, what it could’ve done for her. My question is, would it have done anything for her? Are only some people wired for quote on quote “kensho” experiences or in my case susceptible to the medicine that shikantaza can give? It just sucks cuz I know life is a goddamn beautiful thing no matter what your thoughts and feelings tell you but do some people just have no chance of knowing that cuz they ain’t wired for zazen?

zen: is good for nothing. The DSM-V: you have ADHD

they should do a BBC channel where they just play your videos 24/7 on repeat cuh, on hood

Your friend Bob would be dead without insulin if he had type 1 diabetes, so he must have type 2. Maybe depression comes in different types as well.

So much for the two Big Pharma promos......Reading between the lines, the promo's authors sound like a couple of satisfied psychotropic customers. I am happy for them. I say, "stay on your meds, if that works for you". However, there is concern about anti-depressants causing emotional blunting. That does not sound promising for kensho experiences, to me. However, if Brad is right about Kensho being a matter of one's karma, then it will not matter one way or the other--- one could have half one's brain shut down be a stroke and still have kensho.

Litres per 100km

Just to chime in: the narrative that those angry comments are pushing isn't exactly backed up by the current literature. The notion that depression is just some chemical imbalance that you can fix with a pill is viewed as highly reductionistic by modern experts. It's unfortunate that it still gets puhsed around so heavily. That doesn't mean that people can't benefit from antidepressants but it's a much more nuanced discussion than these guys/gals make it seem. I think your videos on the subject have been good and informative.

language is a behavior😊

non duality, neo-advaita dangers There are people, like Tim Freke, studying the pitfalls of neo-advaita dangers. Non-duality can be associated with depersonalization, suicidal thoughts, and a negation of life. This is in line with the potential dangers of non-duality discussed in various sources. Non-duality, when misunderstood or misapplied, can lead to issues such as spiritual bypassing, building a bulletproof spiritual ego, and a sense of non-existence or meaninglessness. The dangers of non-duality, particularly through the neo-Advaita approach, include using it to avoid or escape from mental and emotional health issues, as well as negating the importance of individual emotions and experiences. It's important to approach non-duality with a balanced understanding and awareness of its potential pitfalls. The search results provide insights into the potential dangers of non-duality, emphasizing the importance of understanding and navigating this spiritual approach with care. While non-duality itself is not inherently dangerous and can enhance self-awareness and consciousness, the misapplication of its principles can lead to negative psychological and spiritual consequences.

What antidepressants did Buddha take?

So you said you believe in karma. What exactly is your belief?

my 2 cents after meds, drugs, and meditation: everything is made up; nothing really matters (but something still has to)

I’ve now heard/read you say in several places you don’t like Sam Harris. For me personally he’s been a great help to my practise, especially his Waking Up app has proven to be a true treasure trove for me. I’m very interested as to why you don’t like him or don’t agree with him, since it seems to me that Harris and you share a lot of the same no-BS views on matters of practice and insight. I would love to hear you go into a little more detail about your views regarding him

You're talking here as if recognising the nature of thought is the point of Zen practice, or that it's all that Zen practice has to bring to bear on depression and our lives generally. That is not the point of Zen practice, nor is it what kensho is. The point of Zen practice is a direct, experiential realisation that we are buddhas, awakened beings who realise that they are deeply connected with everything usually considered to be 'outside' of the little dynamic we create around our own thoughts, and that we generally mistake for a self. What Zen points to, the experience and the realisation of it, has much more profound implications for an alienating illness like depression than ignoring our thoughts or not ignoring them.

If thoughts were something that really was produced by clever old me, then I'd know that they were correct. 🤪

Hi Brad, about your friend Bob, has he tried extended fasting? I've read many things about extended fasting curing diabetes, since it regulates insulin levels. Might be worth mentioning to him, and save him from electrolyte deficiency due to chugging so much water 🙏

My question for the book: How valid/sound/extensively reasoned is the perspective that Buddhists hold against killing other lifeforms? Humans killing humans is, I feel, an obviously immoral thing to do in the vast vast majority of situations. Humans killing animals for food seemingly is frowned upon in a lot of cultures inspired by Buddhism. I believe I've heard you say that your old teacher wouldn't even swat/kill mosquitos. I find this so hard to accept, and not only because I have an admitted pre-disposition for human supremacy. Everything on this planet is fueled by other life forms. All creation and growth comes at the cost of destruction and death to something else. Is the Buddhist ideal to escape that paradigm completely? That doesn't seem possible. So then is the idea to minimize the negative impact? If we all stopped taking life except for the absolute base requirement needed to survive, e.g. found the least impactful and most renewable crop to plant, would that be the Buddhist ideal? I understand that killing a mosquito is ending life, and we're all a part of that same life source, so I'm effectively killing a part of myself when I kill a bug. But at the same time, isn't the balance of the world different lifeforms keeping other lifeforms in population check? Buddhist stuff is hard to comprehend AND ask! Sorry for the long ramble!

I feel like sometimes we are clearing the karma of our family system.... 7 generations wont be reborn in hell 😂

we say Kilometer Leistung.....

If one does zazen for so long and still has depression, it is logical to conclude that zazen doesn't work.

Regarding mileage. The problem with Europeans is that they speak the wrong languages. Only the English would be using the correct lingo - and they are sticking to imperial measurements (God save the Queen).

Bob's diabetes must be Type 2, not Type 1. Without insulin, after onset Type 1 is fatal. Outcomes can be held off with severe dietary restrictions-in some cases, you can survive up to a month before dying horribly.

Sam Harris is in deed a joke these days. At least that's what my thoughts sometimes say too. Sometimes I take those thoughts more seriously and I even think I don't like him. But normally it's because my thoughts don't agree with his words. Hardcore zen on the other hand, my thoughts normally agree with that.

you don’t have a clue as to what they are talking about.