My Final Flutter Video 

(Also, still waiting for someone to name a single good Flutter app I can install and try on my iPhone. Don’t you dare say EBay Motors)

I think either Pixels or Pixels Journal by Teo Vogel are made with Flutter, but he may have changed them idk

​​@@t3dotgg Reflectly has a great iOS app. And it's been available for years.

Google pay Stadia ( with negative latency lol 😂 ) They are also improving the ffi bridge to make it better. I use both react native and flutter ( wierd I know ). RN is fantastic when you already have a team of web engineers. Flutter has awesome dx ( well..... Dart is uhm IDK not that great but ) the hot reload and the pace of dev is very good Anyways you have great points ( for now........ hopefully 😅 )

@@t3dotgg How about you name a mobile app that you'd like built and I try building it in flutter? just for fun.

Interesting

Ask him to keep the JS contents, that's why I'm here its fun too use. I think we need to verify things these guys say on RU-vid lol

Thank you just what I was saying. Theo is not a flutter dev. For people who have started with RN and moved to flutter and actually learnt to build good apps the right way we can easily tell you Flutter>RN. I just feel bad for people here who will like to try flutter but skip cos Theo's opinion.

can you create a native view and show it in your flutter (skia canvas)?

Theo’s vendetta against Flutter is kind of weird and unjustified. At the very least it is super misleading because there are A LOT of inaccuracies in his arguments that do more harm than good when objectively talking about a Framework.

1. Why not use Unity then? 2. It’s incredibly unreliable compared to native platforms, and often overlooked by the primary audience of Flutter (early career devs) 3. OTA is still a very early thing in Flutter. The literal creator of Flutter quit Google to solve the problem because it was THAT BAD. I also update App Store apps via OTA at least once a week, it’s a very soft “ban” I’m sorry man, but your word to incorrect assertion ratio here is much worse than mine 🤷only people checking the replies are Flutter fanboys so ratio away

1. Why use browsers then? 2. RN is even more unreliable. You have to rely on community developed packages for implementing every little thing. 3. I don't think many people care about OTA updates.

I feel Theo is intentionally writing stuff to provoke, perhaps for views. Soon natural selection will do its thing. We'll see what's better as the years go by 😃

​@@t3dotggWhat a childish way to write arguments w/o proofs 😂

I agree with some of his takes; however, making wrong statements like this reveals that Theo likely hasn't spent much time practicing with Flutter. Consequently, his opinion loses credibility. In my opinion, providing viewpoints to a broad audience without sufficient knowledge about both platforms is not right.

absolutely correct! And my team is building our own channel to create a flutter SDK to call our native SDKs! becuase we have fully developed echo system nativly built and we want a quick way to port it to flutter!

Not the first time Theo has a smooth brain take on something Typical for a webdev (nodev) that are crazy about frameworks

​@@exprove2496even if he made a wrong statement, it doesn't mean that the other things he said aren't correct or well said

@@giuliopimenoff it certainly discredits it if he misses something so basic

I agree 💯

must be because of expo, react native by itself is a completely different beast, with expo you just install compatible packages and can test immediately on your own device, and even add native code not supported by expo nowadays, and gives so much stuff that people overlook some jank that you will still find sometimes. for example recently I had an issue on react native with expo that, I've had to use adb tools to see crash logs on the compiled apk 😅didnt happen in the dev env. its an app that started on the v35 of the expo sdk, is now on the v49 and overall ... no problem free but like I said, so much stuff that outweights the issues you might find.

Sounds like you're not a true React dev. The RN experience is very very solid now a days. Specially when count in Expo

The React experience itself is rock solid too. With hooks and functional components and now React 18

1- because it uses javascript/typescript 2- has lot more job offers than flutter, took canada for example and there is like 60 job offers while for react native it has 800 3- react native is real doing native bridging here and not painting in canvas 4- if you want to move to another background like web or backend you just have to learn the APIs from those sides Flutter has good dx smoother than react native, and looks faster in android, but for job or company owners looking for investment and talents, they will choose first react native because IT IS more accessible.

@@Trucho1996 "You're not true react dev" been developing with rn professionally for past 6 years, both expo and non-expo debugging is not great at all. dealing with platform differences and limited api when it comes to it is pain. Anything that is more complicated than a view with a button inside requires a lot of hacking to make it visually satisfying. Maybe my use cases were leaning more on graphical side of things, but Flutter feels like a less janky tool for me. Which in the long run (over the years) saves me a lot of stress over shit breaking. And don't get me started on upgrading RN in mature projects

Had been a while, hadn't it? Good to have it back.

Love it !

expo is for beginners, seasoned RN developers don't use it.

@@mrrobinet5551 i mean, that's clearly just untrue, eg Alan migrated pure RN to Expo

@@mrrobinet5551 nope brother expo is not for beginners it is handling all the hardwork to make things easier for everyone by creating official maintained packages and if you think that professional developers use react native cli instead of expo to build android and ios applications then you are not a good developer bro in development you don't unnecessarily use the hard part to perform things and if you do you are just an old school programmer who wants to perform unnecessary complex tasks

Smartest guy in this comment section

A few years ago, there was a lot of work to be done. Things have gotten much better in a post-Expo world, I highly recommend checking RN out again

Yeah React Native was a mess without Expo

My experience as well. Flutter tooling is orders of magnitude simpler and more powerful. Honestly, I think Theo hasn't spent 5 min trying out Flutter. If he had made just one app he'd know that we can also call native SDK via platform channels and even C or Rust libraries via the FFI. It's okay, who cares anyway...

@@t3dotgg Couldn't the exact same argument be made for flutter? It doesn't seem like you have used it in its present state.

@ You literally can't call native UI at all since it's not a native render layer. You can call APIs in like the backend sense, but you can't render anything from native land

will happen for sure :)

flutter is still crap, lets be honest here. with all the canvas painting.

real chads write apps in source

@@purvanjaro real chads write apps in assembly*

@@underscore. real superchads write apps with the Rollercoaster Tycoon engine

source 2 when?

Why release GTA VI when you can re-release GTA V a fifth time?

​@@t3dotggGTA V * V :deranged:

@@t3dotgg GTA taking a page out of skyrim's book

malix

​Wow hello @@meqativ, how are you doing? Are you still using S4D?

none of my react apps are mobile-friendly and i will shit myself if anyone views them on a phone.

I was hoping to see his response to this, lol.

Most apps can easily be a website

There is so much more to app development & maintenance than whether the programming language is statically-typed. The merits of Dart are totally irrelevant to Theo's complaints about the platform.

I don’t recommend Compose for iOS…. It would be easier to write SwiftUI and Kotlin multiplatform for some backend logic, but I agree with you in some points.

is it available online?

godot is amazing

Valid points but your opinion is still not a strong argument for using Flutter over RN or native. You're essentially saying that because Flutter APIs are easier to work with that means is better. Did you forget that the point of an app is to bring some value to your users? Is not about making ur code more readable or increasing your abstraction layer is about the user experience. And I'm sorry but Flutter will never be native and native is what users expect. I think there are good use cases for flutter beyond the ones theo mentions. But let's be honest the majority of developers are just thinking of themselves when picking flutter not about the users

@@Trucho1996 The user expects an app to be fast and that the features should work seamlessly. What is easy to forget is the business value that comes along with a better dev experience. The pace at which a product can be delivered is a huge win for an organisation. If the user expects native elements, most are already available in the framework. Others can easily be implemented when needed. Just remember. Flutter accesses the graphics layer directly. It’s what the native framework also does. The only difference is that the native elements have in built behaviour in them that can easily be included with Flutter.

@@aakashr79 fair but thanks to Expo the RN dev experience is arguably superior in most use cases. It allows for more code reusability with the web plus it's easier and cheaper to find React developers when building a team. So although Flutter has benefits and sure can be used effectively thanks again to Expo RN would probably be the best choice for most projects. But anyways I'm not going to argue this to death at the end of the day great software can be written with both

​@@Trucho1996I disagree that users will prefer native over flutter, users don't care about how this is made, but if this is good and don't break

i think i have tried all u have just mentioned..i second u..flutter will win the cross platform war..taking market share from unity, react native, electron & ionic/capacitor..kotlin multiplatform dosent support desktop or web, so there is no comparison.

That's what Skia is if you didn't know, it's a graphic engine same way like unity (just for games). So stop proving Theo's point and use maybe wikipedia before writing nonsense.

@@mrrobinet5551 lmao, so unity takes screenshots and overlays it on a canvas? and I'm the one writing nonesense I keep rereading you're comment and I can't make any sense of it, how did you read the original comment and come up with what you just wrote? Do you even know what is being discussed?

@@maran.ath4 you're just dumb, the word 'like' doesn't always mean 'equal'. learn to read the whole sentence. and for your information, unity renders 3d and doesn't try to copy/screenshot native ui elements like flutter.

Can you elaborate on what is misleading or arguable

"Flutter is an actual cross-platform app development technology unlike React Native which is a just for mobile app development." This is not true. React Native for web has existed for a long time. Also, React Native for Windows/macOS is a real project that looks very promising and could be a great replacement for Electron on desktop. I have no idea how much React Native is shareable with a mobile app.

Also, Unity has a compilation mode called IL2CPP (Intermediate Language to C++) which can AOT compile the C# code.

@@Vim_Tim Those are experimentary but really promising. However React Native is still years behind to be considered well-established technology with a full package like Flutter.

Psych, not sike. As in “I psyched you out”

I was looking for this comment.

Trying to ignore hybrid HTML5 apps is like trying to ignore Javascript

@@bruwyvn ah yes, the "Quiet Web"

Isn't web a platform?

@@jujujajajujujaja I am using "platform" to mean ISA + OS combination that binaries must target to run directly on a device. The Web provides a truly "platform"-agnostic runtime for apps.

no.

you almost got it, but I don't think you hit home with this one chief lol, you said a lot of wrong stuff here

Comparison of Developer Experience in Flutter and SwiftUI: Flutter is a cross-platform framework, allowing you to build apps for multiple platforms (iOS, Android, web, desktop), while SwiftUI is primarily focused on iOS and macOS app development. Therefore, the comparison might not be entirely accurate since the two frameworks have different target platforms and capabilities. Performance Comparison between Flutter and SwiftUI: performance can vary based on factors such as the complexity of the app, the device it's running on, and the specific optimizations applied during development. While SwiftUI might offer certain performance advantages in the context of iOS app development, Flutter also employs a high-performance rendering engine and provides tools to optimize performance for various platforms buttttttttt QT and QML are distinct from Flutter and SwiftUI. QT is primarily used for C++ development and is more commonly associated with desktop applications. Flutter, on the other hand, is designed for modern app development with a focus on user interfaces, while supporting multiple platforms including mobile, web, and desktop. Flutter's Learning Curve and Easiness: Flutter is suitable for beginners ("noobs") due to its simplified learning curve and ready-to-use widgets. I agree that Flutter does provide a rich set of widgets that can streamline development, but if you're a "professional developer" as you claim, you should know that becoming proficient with any framework, including Flutter, requires time and practice. Additionally, the term "noobs" might not accurately reflect the diverse range of developers who use Flutter, including experienced professionals. You're a seasoned developer, since you mentioned 1999, so make accurate comparisons and avoid generalizations that might not apply universally across all developers and scenarios.

Flutter is great. Don’t let others opinions sway you. I’ve been on a team with multiple enterprise Flutter apps with 1m+ users. It’s a great frontend framework.

Keep learning Flutter, it's awesome. I loathe working in RN and I've done that for years before diving deep into Flutter.

Mobile developer here giving opinion about mobile tech: Flutter is hot garbage. (So is react native)

What is a better option then

@@davidvidic Native dev. You have awesome new technologies like Compose and SwiftUI, even a similar offering from compose in the multiplatform space, which still compiles down to native code and doesn't require bridging. (SwiftUI is going to be more performant though)

@@andrewtfluckpisssssh rn is great

@@mattmmilli8287 not when you have additional runtime overhead, and still have platform discrepancies that most devs either don't understand or know how to reconcile without deep knowledge and skills surrounding the topic. At least native development makes this clear, and often provides more ergonomic ways to achieve fluid experiences that are optimized for the platforms they run on. The write once, run anywhere paradigm is somewhat of a lie, and at that point, you might as well go all in on native because if your app is more than just a simple Todo project, you'll likely need to write something native anyway.

Sure does. Including development time, and not just writing code: even environment issues and deployments.

Question, for mobile development I've worked mostly with react native and expo, touched flutter briefly, last bit I saw was they created flutter for web and for desktop (similar to react native for web, which I'm not particularly a fan off). In the case of react native I wouldnt touch the web part unless it shares 90% of the design with mobile but with flutter have you used the web or desktop apis? wonder if they have made some progress since then, flutter might make sense for desktop apps too if you care about size as you wouldn't need to bundle a browser with the binary like with electron.

@@arashitempesta I have not used flutter for web and desktop in production so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Flutter supports for web and desktop seem to be getting more and more mature. And I can see the advantages of using it to support web, mobile and desktop with one code base, especially when you are a solo dev. However, one huge caveat is that with web and desktop, the specs of your target machines can vary a lot. Screen size, input peripherals, processing power. I can imagine your “single code base” would become a lot more complex in order to support web and desktop also. I would rather have code duplication than complexity in this case, if I’m already developing a fairly complex piece of software. Another thing, Javascript will always be the first class citizen of the web, and web is not the top priority of Flutter. Using flutter to develop web app will almost definitely give you a ton of technical challenges. So I guess this is the same case with RN web.

Still there’re always some use cases that favor the choice of flutter. For example, if one day my graphics editor needs to support desktops. Rather than doing a complete rewrite, it would be much more sensible to strategically refactor some core components to be used on both mobile and desktop

How so? What issues have you encountered? Btw for embedded you can make everything in C or Rust and just the gui in Flutter. It's pretty great actually.

I guess all web apps are worse than native apps, then?

How can you explain that all benchmarks indicate that flutter is faster than react native then?

Flutter still beats React Native in almost every metric

​@@erenjeager1756 Funny, because it's actually Flatter that works closer to the system, compiling to native code, whereas React Native interprets JavaScript at runtime and calls native APIs through the bridge.

That's not true, binding and sys-calls are expensive, if you want to be faster use the native platform

He’s a shill for a js framework/platform.

@@dontdoit6986 doesn't he actively shill a whole tech set?

@@ayoubkrt5018 yes, the t3 stack he calls it. He doesn’t discuss that he has business interests in this video. He’s pretending to have objective agency. By failing to disclose what is a conflict of interest, it’s a grift. There’s pros and cons to every tech stack. If you don’t accept the cons of React Native and Typescript, you can’t do a fair comparison against anything else. Notice he didn’t touch on the Dart language. Because, it’s a great little oop language that does so many things right.

@@dontdoit6986 what I also find dishonest is having the main points for why you hate a framework over the other be you not doing enough research to see that they are either fixed or did t exists in the first place, at this point he has to be sponsored by Facebook or something

@@ayoubkrt5018 in fairness to him, he did check out one of the problems he pointed out and the issue is still open on github

​@@1879heikkisorsaIt didn't sound overtly aggressive to me. That's just flavor. Theo isn't just providing raw analysis, he's also entertaining. Rants and hot takes can bring points to light that might just get glossed over if they are just bullet points in a dry, academic analysis.

"At the end users doesn't care about your fancy codebase they care if the app is slow." This was Theo's entire point: Flutter provides worse interaction & accessibility because the native UI elements will always be better.

@@Seashell833 is it really “faster” in a meaningful way? I use Outlook, Messenger, and Discord regularly on a iPhone SE 2 and haven’t ever had performance concerns. Animations are always great. I would love to see some good benchmarks. Artificial CPU stress-tests and CPU utilization don’t really tell the whole story.

Try RN then come back to tell what your experience is like. Bout performance you can run your app on profile mode to see what the problem is then spin up an isolate (the multi threading thing) when required.

The problem with RN is its unstable API, so libs will likely break on every RN update, but it may be better nowadays with expo.

how did you go 4 years thinking they used native components for everything??? also. performance is fine on complex apps, its up to the developer to optimize their code.

@@BooleanDev 🤣🤣🤣 you nailed it. I don't want to sound rude, so forgive me. I think some people who are mostly solo just want a face for their business and don't care bout what tools they use, if it can do it then it should do it. The UI isn't native and anyone who says it is, is telling a lie and 3-4 years is enough to much time to figure that out as it means you don't fully understand the tool.

it has great UX, the ios jank issue he mentioned has been fixed with impeller

You can create your own “unique UX design language” in react native too 🤦‍♂️😂

​@@OryginTechI find it easier to implement the designs given to me by the UI/UX team in a pixel perfect way in flutter. Meta uses React Native in the best way that I've seen since they made it. You can do great things in both, the time spent in each is a cost. So try both and see which one you like instead of convincing people that things are impossible or possible in either.

@@hunterwilhelm I have tried both. For a very long time... RN is actually easier for what you’re describing than flutter.

I work with RN on a daily basis and only made a few things with flutter, but did you guys try to do proper shadowing of elements with RN? What about rendering a centered blue shadow of 5px spread on a button on Android? It's a small example, but a good one IMO. Theo expressed that same idea pretty well I think. The native platform is great because it's more accessible, stable, etc. but being tied to the platform can also limit the possibilities of what you can do / show to your users. Flutter is great if you want to control your UI down to individual pixels (similarly to a game engine), while RN / native apps are better for most common apps which most of the time doesn't need that level of customization, even when designers are a bit pushy. It just depends on what you're making and what tradeoffs you're willing to make

​@@OryginTech you said you use them both but you are more like JS person i guess, that is why you feel RN is more easier than Flutter, most people insist that Flutter is more easier than RN. you should think about perspective for noobs when you are talking about "Easy"

I’ll admit I’ve seen some utter messes in older pre-expo RN (or expo ejected) codebases. Has gotten much better over time

@@t3dotgg So the only way to not get yourself into an utter mess is to be locked into a subscription service?

are u leaving flutter?

​@@aurkodipde to be honest im not a mobile app developer...but ive been looking at the mobile app development in general from time to time and always saw flutter as being the better alternative...besides this I think every flutter developer is aware of how flutter web renders a whole canvas as the website and I personally dont like that..to hear that the mobile app as well is also a canvas feels just odd to me..from this video I felt like the difference between flutter web and react/svelte/vue is the same as between flutter and react native...so yeah im switching my focus to react native

take much of what he said with a grain of of salt, he is not experienced with flutter at all

@@wandenreich770 do it if u want, but i can guarantee u will come back to flutter sooner or later..react native is not a horse for the long run..either native or flutter is the future

1. Flutter is not like Svelte because Svelte compiles to use the browser API. Flutter is like using a for the entire web app. 2. Theo did not say that React Native is better than native or replaces native. His graph shows there are still use-cases for native development and mentioned dropping to the native layer for specific features when necessary.

@@Vim_Tim I never mentioned how they run, I just mentioned how their dx qualities match so much.

Using a bot like Renovate or dependabot helps a lot. They make PRs for you.

Expo with react native can do all of that stuff bro

@@mateh3273 he doesn't just mean iOS and Android, it's also Windows, Linux and macOS that work extremely well in Flutter and Expo only supports mobile.

@@Unbreathable I think there’s plan coming up relatively soon with macOS and windows + 144hz with reanimated 3. Personally, I am working in top 200 asx companies in Australia, where we’re actually able to run on 3 apps easily (iOS, android and web (pretty much for e2e testing)).

@@mateh3273 I'm still in school so not much to say here, but in my opinion Flutter is also much better with handling custom UIs cause it looks the same on every platform. As someone how doesn't really like the native look I just prefer making my own components and the runtime isn't much larger than RN anyway, so in the end it's just a choice you can make freely. Flutter tends to work pretty well with the devices it runs on, you likely won't notice the difference between Flutter and React Native.

This is not hard flutter takes it. Everything he says about flutter devs shitting themselves applies to him. He doesn't realise how he sees flutter devs is how flutter devs see him. lol he's a RN fan boy saying fan boy things. Let benchmarks speak for themselves, let dev experience speak for itself. Have u notice how ios jank video side was edited? haha its not an issue the guy has no solid point. Flutter is not native it doesn't claim that. But it is the best option for cross platform unless you are choosing not to see

half of capacitor plugins were buggy as hell last time i checked

PWA is another gimped horse. Users don't add app icons on iOS and full push notification support is still not a thing.

@@ethanneff9817 Just to note, push notifications finally got support on iOS a few months ago. Apple still makes it very confusing to add a PWA though (you literally can't tell the difference between installing a PWA and installing a shortcut to some website!). Hopefully someday they will add some better indicator that websites can be installable. It's ridiculous.

Just to do the tiniest things you have to write so much of boilerplate code(this is already a dart issue), one of the things you didn’t mention is how flutter is so OOP oriented… like Java. We’re always saying that Flutter is the Angular of mobile dev

Devs in your position see why I make videos like this still. If I can save even one team from this hell, it was worth it Genuinely hope you can find the opportunity to build on tech you trust soon 🙏

@@t3dotgg If RN seems to be the best thing after sliced bread. How come Meta themselves didn't use RN for developing the Threads app ? The Threads app is a quite simple app UI-wise. Any ideas ?

​@@TheIpiconcan you elaborate why you guys hate it exactly...I would point to your code base before blaming the framework.

@@skyhappy I did add another comment as an example why Flutter slows us down, dart with Flutter has just a lot of boilerplate code which can sometimes take dozens of line to implement something you can on line in a functional manner with react for example

🤣🤣🤣

Take it with a grain of salt.

@@ReViv4L half a grain even

And thanks to MUI they don't even look that bad.

Yup. As an aging developer, I really like how productive I can be with Flutter vs anything in javascript/typescript.

The platform doesn't matter to users, but for engineering costs it does

Lol, yes wtf indeed! It is a feature by now :D Now do it with 3 fingers and watch it go 3 times as fast. It can of course be fixed. It has just so far been chosen on purpose to keep it around, kind of as as an "insider" easter egg. There is an issue open to fix, maybe it is already fixed in master, did not check. In any case it has been decided to remove/fix this peculiar "feature" since it may interfere with accessibility and usage expectations. I'm not going to go into the debate though. There are good comments here already, from people developing with with both frameworks offering a more balanced view.

How many of your users use two fingers to scroll?

​@@gofullstacknailed it

Yep definitely really nice. Not cross platform but we get the bestt experience on android

Seems dope, haven’t used it yet though (I am an iOS soy boy nowadays)

​@@MaxProgramming Compose is cross-platform now I use it for desktop development though But plenty of people are now using it for ios now that compose for ios is in beta

@@levibaraka yep even for ios it's good. But you still need to write some Swift code. Probably the UI or the logic part idk exactly

Nah man. Impeller has come to the rescue. No more janks on iOS.

If you're really interested, Try old skia vs. impeller with the profiler. The difference will be instantly visible. Did it with around 50k animations at 90fps. The issues you might be referring to are mostly related to custom shaders that apps rarely need. The team is working on it and it should be addressed in the near future. However there are pretty efficient work arounds that work just as well. I'm not saying all, but sometimes those YT videos are backed by real data.

​@@aakashr79it doesn't matter, because Theo talks about the problems of two years old and passes them off as arguments, that's the whole point of the video.

It's not, because OP lives in the past and tries to convince everyone that his tech of choice is the best.