@@MelissaDougherty - Writing sketch ideas was first on the list after getting this episode out! Here we go... Idea #1: It’s a bit of a long-shot, but do you happen to have a life-size Pacific Rim-style robot mech outfit?
I guess you came up my feeds because I love Melissa. What caught my eye was the amazing thumbnail quality. Your video is sharper than my real life in person. 😅👌🏾
Usually when I hear an argument against subjective truth it’s something like, “is it objectively true that truth is subjective?” But I’ve not heard, “do you believe someone can lie to you?” Great question!
I love to hear people discussing this! I grew up around the teachings of Keating, Merton and Rohr. I came to God reading the Bible on my own and realized Jesus was not what these figures taught.
This was legitimately the best interview of Melissa I've seen! (Not her channel, but of other people interviewing her😉) Although a very deep topic and very prevelant beliefs in the church today, you guys had me laughing. That was awesome! God bless you both💗🙏💗🙏
Great video. I am someone who doesnt really identify as a Mystic, not because I don't have those inclinations, but because to quote the great Christian Mystic, Bono "I still haven't found what I'm looking for." At this point in life I cant help but view God as an absentee father, and mysticism is the spiritual equivalent of me knocking on random doors and saying "Are you my dad?"
Hey Jason! First, thanks for the awesome comment. Christian Mystic Bono, the metaphor at the end... 👏🏻 That said, I've felt that way before, for looong stretches. NOT that I feel as close to God as CMs seem to claim they can get (or even as close as I'd prefer), but I feel more content with trusting Him despite the lack of feels. I'm praying that you will find what you're looking for, and we eventually meet up Where the Streets Have No Name. ...why did it seem humorous and cool when you quoted U2, and cheesy when I did? 🤔
As someone who has spent a lot of time around Christian Mysticism ive noticed a certain trend. It encourages escapism, frequently because they are seeking the high places and stressful everyday life experiences are getting in the way. To give an example they will frequently appeal to the dessert fathers who started ancient monestaries fleeing a crazy hostile culture. Which i can understand, however i think when we read the Prophets we get a different story. Jeremiah and Ezekiel lived under siege and couldnt escape anywhere. Daniel was taken into Babylon and Jonah tried to flee but God didnt let him. I think with Rohr and Keating you see the Buddhist influence and intrest because its more friendly to escapist mentality. The Buddha fled his new family after seeing suffering. Jesus suffered for his family ( dispite the fact that we are frequently bratty and difficult to deal with.) It is the difference between finding joy under trial and avoiding trial to find joy.
@@andrewhart3638 - Definitely worth thinking about! Agreed - monastic escapism is ubiquitous in Mysticism, yet we Christians are instructed to go into all the world and preach - to be "salt and light", engaging our culture and sharing the Gospel. We can't do that hidden away pursuing personal mystic experiences. It's an easy way for Satan to sideline us from the work Christ assigned us with.
You know me now. That’s all that matters. No need for us to dwell on the past or speculate about missed opportunities, who found who, whether it's the real Gregory or his hand doll typing this right now, etc. Time is fleeting. Let’s focus on the present and make some new memories.
What no one is going to say is that psychology is the counterpart to gnosticism. While a gnostic says the spiritual is what matters most, the psychologist says the body is what matters most.
@@thinkingtoinfinity I see how God has given you Wisdom. Your response is positive, you agree with something I said. At the same time, you agree with a portion of it. You see some value in what Ive said but you don't agree with the main idea. "A soft word turns away wrath" - Proverbs You can stab me in the stomach if you'd like. Tell me how awful my idea is
What I see and hear most in this, is 'me'-ism, the worship of self. But what about God? Does anybody care about God? How God feels? The greatest command in the law was to love God, not love experiences for yourself. If you read the detailed list in 1st Corinthians 13:4-7 of the attributes of what that love actually is, one of them is "it is not self seeking". It also says "love is not proud, it does not boast". And yet, as Melissa pointed out, there are those claiming to be Christian who really just want to appear more spiritual than others, so they can 'boast' by talking about themselves and their lofty experiences. But again... what about God? What does he get out of any of this? It's like Gregory's analogy of his time with his daughter, where she's listing all the things she wants; the places she wants him to take her to, and the things she wants him to buy for her. Does that not describe the way many people who claim to be Christian are? They're excitement for God is about what they think they can get out of him, rather than being with him. For all this busy-ness about God, what does he get out of it other than just being used? The only thing Jesus wanted to know from Peter after the resurrection was: "Do you love me?". As it says: love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it is not proud, it does not boast, it does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs, it does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth, it always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Notice how it says nothing about feeling euphoric. All of that is how we're supposed to be towards God first, then one another. It's an incredible list of attributes which shapes and forms our attitude, and from that comes the behaviors in that list. It is the straight and narrow path. Seek and walk it with him, not for him. Include him in all of those things so he gets something out of a relationship with you other than just being used.
Very interesting discussion! I enjoyed it! I would consider myself as a Christian Mystic, even if I lack much experience and understanding, but I don't believe I would fit into any of the three categories named. It seems strange to me, listening to all these issues, which I agree are issues, such as pride, or seeking out spiritual experience, or gnosticism, so many things. I think it stems from your definition of the word 'mystic', which is... rather odd to me, since by your definition it seems I would clearly not be one. After all, I have not had one spiritual experience of the sort you describe. No speaking in tongues, never even witnessed such a thing. No healings "performed", no "trips to heaven" or Jesus showing up to give explicit instruction. And if one of those things did happen to me, I would not be proud of it, it is no more impressive than having a dream, or a good idea. That is almost like being proud of your height, or intelligence. These are gifts from God, not things you somehow earned. In my view, mysticism is not a thing that "happens to you", like an event. It isn't an "experience" in that sense, but rather a way of experiencing the whole world. It is not about laying your hands on a cancer patient and causing spontaneous remission, it is about seeing that spontaneous remission happens all the time, even without praying for, or laying hands on, people. The ordinary is miraculous, and being a mystic is seeing all of reality through a spiritual lens, including the 'mundane', if there is even such a thing. Apologies if anything is unclear or contradictory, my environment is not particularly suited to clear thought at the moment, would be happy to hear thoughts or questions though. Steel sharpens steel!
Thanks for watching! I think you've got a good grasp on avoiding pride, seeing spiritual encounters & the miraculous as gifts from God instead of something we can manifest into being, etc. You're also supporting the importance of defining our terms. Melissa and I discuss that a lot at the beginning of the video. I agree - if we're just talking about pursuing God, acknowledging that a spiritual realm exists, and praying to our Creator, then all Christians are "Mystic" by that definition. But the terms and definitions mysticism and occult, as they've been used for hundreds of years now, don't mean that anymore. More important than the words we use to describe our spiritual behavior is what we're *doing* regarding our faith and spirituality and our obedience and faithfulness to Christ. Thanks again - hope you have a great day.
It's wise to ask questions and genuinely seek to understand their view first. I'd start by assuring your friend that you care about your relationship and would like to seek the truth together. Then ask, "What do you mean by a religious spirit?" "What convinced you that your views are accurate?" That can ensure you're talking abut the same things. After repeating what you heard back to them (so they agree that you understand their view), you can present your reasons for why you think your interpretation is correct and compare your references (hopefully well-grounded in Scripture!). In my comment section alone, I've recently had people accuse me of promoting works-based salvation (even though I say that's heretical), and preaching that God can't speak or do miracles outside the Bible (despite stating in my videos that I've personally experienced legitimate prophecy and miracles). Some people will refuse to listen and go on falsely accusing you. Our responsibility is to know the Bible and put our trust in God - pray for those who falsely accuse us and ask God to mend relationships. Praying your conversations with your friend go well!
I know a Christian Mystic who runs a child shelter for children with special needs in Africa. He’s doing the work that Jesus did. His deeds are good and he’s risking his life daily. Meanwhile many Christian’s seem to just care about getting it right.
Because Jesus cares about us getting it right over our deeds too (Matthew 7:21-23). I thank God for the work your friend is doing, and acknowledge that it's wonderful and aligned with Christ's heart for people, yet still express concerns over God's warnings against un-Biblical mysticism. My family is involved with a similar ministry, CenterWill, a shelter for orphans and widows in Kenya, but that in no way affects our salvation or right-standing with God. Thanks for the comment!
@@mochamarie9741 - Thanks for commenting! Though, respectfully, that's not the subject of this video, and I try to keep comments on topic. Also, a question like "What is the correct view on Revelation?", though very important and intriguing, requires more than a RU-vid comment allows for. Maybe I'll scratch the surface a bit in an upcoming video... Shortest version: If you're saved, whatever happens - you'll end up in eternity with Christ. And if you're not, whatever happens - you'll end up in eternity apart from Christ. I hope you choose wisely! Thanks, again.
I've met a few people who met Christ in a dream and I'm convinced they're not lying because it caused them to become Christians. But they were both from non-Christian cultures and they knew almost nothing about Christianity when they had the dreams. I think that's the point of "mystical" Christian experiences. God reveals Himself to people who don't have the benefit of growing up in cultures where there are Bibles and churches all over the place. Why would God give dreams and visions to me if I already have the Bible, the Holy Spirit, and other believers in my life to give counsel and to pray? Wouldn't He instead miraculously appear to people in their dreams in deeply Islamic or Hindu areas where people have no other way of figuring out that Jesus is the only way?
@@J6warrior - Again, it seems my point was missed... Valid dreams and visions from God are possible (they happened in the Bible!), but we are never instructed in the Bible to spend our time pursuing them. We *are* instructed to test every spirit, not based on whether we think our feelings (or our friends) are reliable (because Satan and evil spirits are brilliantly skilled decievers), but whether it aligns with Scripture. I thank God for the visions that brought those people to Christ, but would also encourage them to follow Christ's teaching and example to focus on God's word. Thanks for commenting!
But God DOES go beyond the Bible. Where in your Bible is it written that your body has nerves or that it has a brain? Where is it written in the Bible that dolphins exist? Many times Melissa doesn't know what she's saying. Do you all realize that Jesus Himself was a mystic? Did He go around carrying a scroll or a book all the time and pointed at the book all the time? Or did He say that He heard His Father's voice and saw what He did? What was the use of Him praying alone every day if He did not hear from the Father and saw Him? You may think that Jesus was acting as God. If He was acting as God, He would not need to seek the Father every day. Was God and Jesus against hidden knowledge when they planned on speaking in parables? What was the purpose of the parables? Wasn't it to conceal knowledge and understanding? Where is the value of precious stones and metals if they suddenly were all exposed out in the open for everyone to see and gather? Their value is in the fact that they are not easy to find. Did God shout to the whole universe that He was going to send Jesus to suffer and die to defeat the devil? If He had, the devil wouldn't have had Jesus killed. How is God acting wisely by making His plans and designs publicly known to everyone, including His enemy? How is God being wise by telling everyone where all His treasures and valuables are hidden? And you all think that God already revealed everything in the Bible; and you think that "occultic" or hidden is necessarily bad. That just shows that you don't read your Bibles as much as you claim. The problem with insecurity and being a snob is a heart and maturity issue; not with wanting more revelation and spiritual encounters. Are we going to tell life that we don't want any more experiences? That we've had enough? Well, what is living? Isn't every moment an experience? Are you going to tell scientists and archaeologists that they should be satisfied with the knowledge they have until now? Is it OK for all of us to stop learning? Would God be OK with it? Wouldn't we stop growing if we stopped learning? Does God want us to remain ignorant and immature throughout our entire existence? If you are OK with not wanting to learn something new or experiencing something new, what does monotony and boredom in your life tell you? When you want to try food at a new restaurant, what is that? When you want to go to a new mall, what is that? When you want to visit a place you've never been to, what is that? I guess Melissa thinks that's bad because we shouldn't want new things. That is being "itchy". Why did God put in us the sense and desire for discovery and exploration? Be grateful for what you already have, but don't have the mindset that it should be enough and you should not want more. Because life does not stop giving you experiences every day and every second. Did Melissa ponder all the above questions before saying what she said? Where is the critical thinking?
Hi Marvin - thanks for the extremely thorough comment! I think there may be a misunderstanding here. Yes, God does "go beyond the Bible" in that miracles are still possible, we can be led by the Holy Spirit, etc., but (as mentioned in the video) all those things must be measured against Scripture to (as Scripture itself instructs us) avoid being misled. Jesus didn't walk around with a *physical* book or scroll, but He did carry the Scriptures - He had them memorized. When He was confronted and challenged by Pharisees, Sadducees, other doubters, and even Satan, Jesus didn't seek new knowledge, He quoted Scripture. He's our example in that regard too. Did you watch my companion video to this on Christian Mysticism? It explains much of this.
You can thank the Roman Catholic pagan institutions for that, mixed in with some Eastern Yoga lol. Satan is so good at getting people to follow their desires over Gods word.
I loved this but I found it incomplete and in doing so leaves a Christian questioning all leadings and guiding that one has from the Holy Spirit. I think it’s important that you lay out what is true workings of the Holy Spirit in the believers life that could be called experiential that God did initiate. Also there are spriitual giants like Tozer, Martin Loyd Jones, Alexander Maclaran who have stated things themselves that have used the word “Mysticism” I do not put them in any of the three groups that you were describing and I think that needs to be pointed out that there is fourth Christian group that uses the word mysticism in the pre 1600 sense of the world and this group should not be lumped with the other three. One could have a knee jerk reaction. To the word mysticism even when it’s used in the correct sense of the original meaning. I am not what one would qualify as a charismatic but am a reformer Baptist but I an aware of the Holy Spirit having experiential relationship in the life of a believer and I think the correct “mystic” quality of this needs addressed or damage may be done by well meaning believers quenching or doubting these true things of God.
Solid opening statement -- Melissa and I do discuss early in the video how it can be a difficult line to walk sometimes. Acknowledging a supernatural realm, prayer, and being "led by the Holy Spirit" are things all Christians experience, but what we *mean* when we say those things counts. Given the responses I'm getting, it might be a good idea for me to do a separate video more clearly defining acceptable vs. heretical spiritual practices based on the Bible. Jesus taught the disciples (and us!) to pray a certain way (acknowledging God's authority, giving thanks to God, inviting Him into our lives, asking for what we need, etc.). The Bible further encourages us to meditate on God's Word and continually pray. However, incorporating a Ouija board in our prayer time would be more like the mystical conjuring of demons that the Bible warns about -- so when a Christian Mystic promotes emptying your mind, focusing on nature, manifesting via the power of the universe, etc., we should be able to clearly see which side of the line that falls on. Some people really want to hold on to the long-abandoned original meaning of "mysticism", but I have to ask why. Because it sounds more interesting? It turns heads? Those people aren't still trying to use the word "gay" to mean happy. They acknowledge "gay" will never be taken that way again... yet, some Christians want to revert back to pre-1600s on the definitions of mysticism and occult. God sees our motivations on why we do things like that.
Luke 11:52 KJV [52] Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. Do what Jesus taught.
@@thinkingtoinfinity What methods does the Bible prohibit? Prayer? Meditation? Silence? Solitude? Those are the methods of the mystics. It was also the method of Jesus. From your comment it seems you’re trapped in legalism and losing the spirit of the law to enforce the letter of the law. Jesus also had some things to say about that.
@@jeffreylong1478 - It depends on what we mean when using those terms. Scripture encourages meditating "on God's word", but that's not the eastern transcendental meditation approach which Christian Mystics often incorporate. A married couple and a prostitute (God's comparison, not mine) can perform the same action, but one is sinful while the other is not. Are we pursuing God on His terms, as He has instructed us to, or choosing the method *we* prefer for our preferred experience? Living as the Bible and Jesus instructed is never legalism.
@@thinkingtoinfinity You interpret the Bible in a way that limits how the Spirit can operate. That’s not a problem with Scripture, but how you interpret it. What’s wrong with meditation in an Eastern sense?
@@jeffreylong1478 - The Bible limits how WE are supposed to interact with the Spirit, not the other way around. Eastern meditation, by emptying our minds and trusting our personal experiences above what Scripture says, opens us up to deception by demonic spirits -- exactly as the Bible says.
So... I hope you are OK, it seems like something happened like a bloody nose or something, but if it is something like that go get checked with a doctor.
