MY RESPONSE TO CURTIS STONE "What Permaculture Got Wrong... Dispelling Five Common Myths" 

Well said! I was totally struck by his modesty and respect for others while providing well-reasoned arguments. I live in the U.S. and it's rare to see that kind of dialogue about virtually any issue these days :p

Quite common actually. However, it is unusual to see someone like this openly sharing with the masses which is why it appears unusual. I have a feeling his thoughts are so well organized and then easily expressed because he likely isn't addicted to the "Average American Diet" like most of us. Get on a low carb, zero sugar, no caffeine, no alcohol, low stress, balanced healthy diet and you'll be amazed at how well you can organize your own thoughts and express them with the same ease as Richard Perkins. I know because I changed my diet and saw the surprising improvement.

@@stephencarlsbad "Average American Diet"... Thats why the english have messed-up teeth!?

@@lewisbivona843 Under Cover Farmers - Feature Length ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-nWXCLVCJWTU.html

stephencarlsbad nice causal nationalism/bigotry

Justin Rhodes , well said! Sustainability, so the future generation can have a future 👍

Mmmmmmm you said Smorgasbord... Now I'm hungry to get back to doing the farming.. LOL Haven't convinced my wife to raising chickens yet(my city doesn't allow them in town either) I'm hoping I can hide em in my semi-forested acres.

As Joel Salatin states....it’s about soil restoration. Period.

Better world for people now & later. Can’t think in terms of grandkids. Way too selfish & narrow an outlook.

Agreed. My first exposures to permaculture were Geoff Lawton and Sep Holtzer and Richard Perkins, and a little Paul Wheaton. I see narrow-minded decontextualized thinking in the comments sections for these materials, but not in the originals... Seems the problems are more with the permaculture fan club than with "permaculture" itself.

Ah finally someone that understands! This is exactly it. It is a set of tools not a set of prescribed methods. Permaculture is the hammer you use to build the house, not the house itself.

It becomes a problem when it is treated as if it is a political ideology!

Swales are simply drainage avenues. Directing excess water. Like a ditch but shallower and wider lined with grass to slow the water down and allow penetration of surface water into the subsurface water systems. Anyone involved in this field had better have more than just experience! Some real education continuing education! Let us be serious, this field is work and work is not a great marketing tool to promote gardening, so the words NO WORK sound real good to people who've never dug into the soil. Never got on their knees to look at an awesome world beneath our feet. Any one who wants to be an expert had better know hydrology and chemistry and riparian systems, and soil and geology, entomology, bacterial disease, fungal disease and viral diseases and what bacteria, fungi and virus are beneficial in our soil. There is oh so much to know and I get tired of people afraid of dirt and sweat and understanding an entire new world of plants and life and and and and...we humans in no Universe are able to mimic Nature. Period. Very few of us know the forest from the trees. Gosh, we don't know the basics yet everyone wants to reinvent the dang wheel!? Without knowing fully just the basics we all think we should go do hydroponics? Or Hugelkulture? Arghhhh. Can you look up 'perched water table'? There is NO fertility that nature allows willy nilly back into the soil of an ecosystem. How funny. There might be a bit of nitrogen available in the debris that is in the process of decomposition, but listen up! Decomposers use that nitrogen first and pretty much zip is left for any new artificial crop. Nature keeps those chemicals (not NUTRIENTS!!) sequestered in the bio mass. Population control! An ecosystem would be destroyed by an overpopulation of plants... Fertile soil only if a human threw balanced macro chemistry on that soil a few weeks prior? Decomposed organic matter feeds the macro and micro soil organisms NOT plants. DECOMPOSED is the key word. Yeah, Pheromones from plants and insects? Interesting. Not too many gardeners need to be worrying about pheromones, they need to deal with the basics: Tilth and drainage of soil (all soil is great soil), Light, airflow, Water (the correct amount at the right time and monitoring the soil drying out) and FERTILIZER. Good grief. I am a master gardener X3 plus quite a bit of other major credentials...hands on over half a century! Full time not just on weekends. Licensed Landscape Architect. If we would all just get on the same page with the correct information and know the basics...happiness. That would be a major project all by itself, we already have all of the simple, straightforward rules and common sense to grow food and that does take a bit of time to learn and practice, quite a bit of time.

Stated perfectly

he is not a know-it-all, b/c he does not know it all... thats ovbvious...

Did you have something constructive to add or are you here to just poop on someone’s compliment to Richard?

@@tristancarr204 Video said response too curtis, but he didnt and couldnt, and instead to save face picked out a few things he doesnt agree with in perm. but ended up looking like he was just tryin to ride on curtis's coat tails. And i find the arogence of his supports ignorant and misleading. Sorry if i up set you.

@@stormysampson1257 Why so offended if you are all that? I just find most people who have any education, as all of a sudden experts on all matters. Which is stupid, but what is real cancerous, is they close their minds too new ideas, without even trying them... im a contrarian, and into many topics, i find this fight or flight reaction too different beliefs, in all of them. Like wellness, ill tell ya, but not going argue with you about it. I tell them to eat what they like, not my fault if they are too lazy or bull headed to research it. I told them the truth, their subconscious knows it correct. And sorry you paid so much for an education.

@@stormysampson1257 I can not find your last comment, i maybe shadow banned. I think we are on the same team, good talking too you, if this our last communication. Hugz

Ben Schiavi you said it right there ! If want a farm that lasts a Thousand years start a Geoff Lawton farm although that’s yet to be proven however daytuna runs off zero fossil fuel imput ! Most of these other farms do not! Which is what permaculture was originally intended to achieve permanence

Permaculture is a fun hobby. But its when the permaculture hobbyists get on their soapbox and predict that permaculture will feed and save the masses is when it reaches kook proportions...

@@stephencarlsbad Permaculture is just sustainable agriculture. There are no strict rules. Agriculture is currently unsustainable. The only options we have are to reduce the population or to make a farming practices sustainable. That can be done by applying principles of soil building, rather than soil degradation. Reserving areas for nature is also something current agriculture does not allow for.

Why would you only choose one? Why would you choose between a starving child and the planet. Why would you presume a wild apple forest in Kazakhstan would tell you anything other than how wild apple trees grow in Kazakhstan. I wouldn't use a forest in the West of Scotland for guidance on growing a tree in the East any more than I would use the Highlands; even in a small country the size of Scotland there are different micro climates that produce different forests. West coast is much wetter than the East the Highlands is cooler more acid based soil with poor nitrogen. Don't go to Kazakhstan stay where you are and learn what the plants that are already there say about your soil and your climate. When you've listened to them go look at scrub land because scrubland is the intermediate step to forestation.

@@shanekonarson I want to see daytuna running in the Australian desert or in mediterranean , not in paradise sub tropical!! Geof is a daytuna pot brain from Britain.

> Why must we go back to the stone age to appease climate change activists and permaculture designers as a whole? some people think that hard work has more value. this way, they can compensate their blindness for more elegant solutions

Yes but then they devellopped other systems in nature , without the need for them, so then you look what nature does in those places

Urban Farmer Curtis Stone - The collaboration between the two of you has been fantastic. I've really enjoyed them immensely!

Agreed! as a follower of both channels I really appreciate the transparent no BS approach from both. Thanks guys for all you do!

I also follow both channels and have come to appreciate cone t from you both for your unique takes on things

Just posted a response video from a complete beginners perspective, what I've learned, and how things have worked for me in San Diego.

Buffalo Bird Woman's Garden,Forest Gardening by Robert Hart,1491 has a great chapter on building soil in the Amazon by ancient people.

We need more than 2 percent of people to be farmers.

The PDC is not about showing you how to do things to replicate what they have shown. It is about teaching people the tools so they can create their own designs and have their own ideas. This is what a person with a PDC can teach but that is all. Each property is different and will have a different optimal design and so teaching one's own ideas as gospel is actually harmful to the movement. But it happens and that is creating a negative culture that makes permaculture look like a cultist movement. In true permaculture, there are no norms, only what is best for your land and your design. That being said, of course there are things that every permaculture person integrates into their design as they have been proven to work already and must now be built upon. For example, growing in guilds is a concept that many use as it has proven to create strong soil and plant health. But all of the people i have seen using it have done so in different ways because an efficient system has not been found yet and in some cases because their land demanded a different approach. That being said, Ideas must be shared and the permaculture properties that have been established for 20+ years generally are open to visitors to show what they did right and most importantly what they did wrong. These places will often send your mind spinning and some such as Permadynamics have shown great profitability. The problem with knowledge based on experience is that experience is generally gained in an environment where things are done in a certain way and you attempt to copy what you have seen instead of creating your own design and doing things the way that best suits the land. For this, academic knowledge is needed and academics are flocking to permaculture to address the knowledge gap and a great example of this is the more recent mycological aspect of permaculture that has shown that growing mycorrhiza in the soil enhances plant growth greatly while providing many additional benefits. Understanding these new concepts is vital not only for permaculture but also for no-dig and many other farming techniques. This is also where newcomers to agriculture are a great benefit to the movement because they bring fresh ideas, skillsets and different ways of thinking.

@@JoshStobart Love permaculture. It requires a knowledge of a lot of different techniques, if you are going to be a good permaculture designer. It is about doing good at where you are at with the simplest, low-tech methods available so as to be achievable. It is relatively easy to implement and maintain provided you are diligent enough to not let it get ahead of you. Observation when starting is key, and well-rounded results are the aim. I have tried find university classes that taught permaculture, and found most offered sustainable ag. Sustainable ag is not as good as it could be. There is still a lot of monocropping and chem ag. Some permaculturists are completely ignored by some programs/profs despite their contributioms and success in the field. Part of the problem is that universities receive much of their funding from mega corporations and much of their studies have "funder bias". Funder bias is when the study favors the business paying for the research, whether by overtly endorsing a favorable finding for said business, by ommission of critical data, etc.

MichelleObama isAman ... I cant tell if you are totally hilarious, or just a troll. Then I saw your RU-vid name... oh my... so many colorful ideas on these interwebs. Either way thanks for the giggle, and please don’t eat anything out of your garden. 😂😂🤣🤣😂😂

Johann smith depends where you are though dry climates mulching is necessary! It’s like he says with swales if you don’t need them don’t use them ! There is hundreds of techniques that can be employed in any given environment! Anyway it’s great people are waking up to Farm more sustainably we will work it out cheers mate

Ugh, Johann, your ideas are kinda sorta very wrong. Compost HAS to be decomposed before putting it on the surface of your plant beds. We humans do not and should not try to mix any of this into our soil. Just putting decomposed organic matter DECOMPOSED on the surface of our soil causes the micro and macro organisms to COME UP to the surface to eat that decomposed organic matter because that is their FUEL source. All these guys go into dormancy when someone not knowing what they are doing puts non decomposed organic matter on their soil. Until that raw, hot or non decomposed organic matter is finally decomposed, there isn't food for the soil organisms. What little nitrogen was left in the dying debris, the decomposers use NITROGEN for fuel. Silly to think there is any chemistry necessary for photosynthesis in our soils. Minerals? Let's go back to chemistry and elements... No lets go back to your supposition that soil organisms are BRINGING up 'nutrients...minerals'...soil organisms once there is decomposed organic matter on the surface of the topsoil, those organisms go up to eat this D O M and then they go back into the soil and poop it out mixing the D O M into the soil far better than we humans. We are talking about the top 4 to 6 inches of soil not any farther down; think about soil deeper than 6". No air, little penetration of water thus the soil organisms don't want to dive any further. 95 % of all plant roots are in the top 4 to 6 inches of soil. Sure there are taproots for support and miles long Mesquite roots, but the fact is 6" is soil life. Watering deeply and allowing the soil to dry inbetween deep waterings...enhances root growth and drought resistance. I beg you guys to go take practically FREE master gardener classes. The basics right up front and center. From your nearest University host of Cooperative Extension Services. I am amazed they aren't producing internet educational videos. BASICS.

MichelleObama isAman lmao

Continuously adding compost every year will cause problems....

I’d also like to hear Richards opinion on Back to Eden. I’m not religious, but most of what Paul says makes sense to me. I love his garden. Especially the dwarf tree’s. I’ve been growing in wood chips this year from pots. Amazing how moist the compost has remained in this dry UK summer. Come on Richard. What’s your take on Back to Eden method?

Daves Faves i think Paul is great because he has a good spiritual mind, i think its a vague concept but its ultimately permaculture through Paul's mind. The pheromone thing is interesting.

I agree, Paul’s, methods are about observe and implement.

The back to Eden concept is incredibly vague. When put to the task, the guy who "invented" that method admits that he uses the terms "wood chips" to describe what every human being on Earth calls compost. He is not growing jack shit in wood chips. He's MULCHING with wood chips. He's growing everything in compost. This has led to A LOT of misunderstanding. Why he doesn't make this clear is beyond my comprehension. You cannot grow anything in strictly wood chips. Nothing.

richard mostly agrees - therefore i can now watch his channel in peace.

Your corrupt, inept, uneducated leaders keep you poor. They cannot run sophisticated ststems.

Anthony Briggs, "Capitalism and large scale ag are ideologies too, and you're dogmatically sticking to those"... this comment is BANG ON!

@@bmllz it's not surprising this comment was largely ignored. Capitalist ideology is such a hegemon that this movement is clearly trapped within the same paradigm as everything else. Capitalist ideology has managed to pass itself off as natural law.

You can't change the world in a day. And as others have commented - capitalism, and before it, serfdom created the surpluses that have allowed society to progress as far as it has. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and paint all of history with a broad brush. There have been great benefits to the system that brought us this far. Now that we can see some if the pitfalls we can work to correct them. In the long run, the benefits have outweighed the cons. If this were not so, we wouldn't be able to have the conversation we are now. A total revolution rarely happens without a regression to a more chaotic state. Let's instead look at the changes that we can make to tweak the current system in order to maximize the benefits and minimize the drawbacks. You know, kind of like the whole point of permaculture. Which is exactly the topic being discussed in the video.

Sorry, but I just don’t see that. I’ve followed this channel for over 2 years. I’ve seen Richard pass on endless amounts of valuable information that so called permaculture guru’s would be charging and pointing to Patreon for. From what I’ve seen, Richard is happy to share his knowledge with traditional farmers, and as stated in this video, believes the future lies with collaboration between traditional ag and permaculture / holistic management. Again, the purist, cult, religious aspect of permaculture will be the death of it. It’s so fanatical and ugly. Keep it simple. Observe how nature has evolved on this rock for the last 4.7 billion years. Understand that the life forms we’ve currently got are the winners out of possibly millions of contestants. The ones with traits most suited for survival in our current climates. Now see where we can mimic the variables that enable those traits to thrive to agriculture in a way that doesn’t hinder the efficiency of production, as efficiency is key to any successful enterprise, and farming is business. Like it or not.

VICtorian071 You just don't have a clue what you're talking about, mate. Why are you here, anyway? To warn us about the evil, greedy Richard? Very funny.

I'm not Hema. Get lost.

I have known many of the Permaculture "students" who know-it-all, but would starve to death if they couldn't get their restaurant or supermarket food. They are dabblers who hate those who are putting food into their mouths.......foolish and short-sited crybabies.

And sometimes what you think you ‘know’ actually interferes with other things to know.

Confirmation

Sure, comes down to what you want to actually do. Most young folks I meet aren't cut out to farm; physically or mentally. We're growing up in a 'soft' generation, if I may say so. Of course, that's a generalization, but I'm quite sure about it. We've tried to document very low cost start ups on everything in a very expensive and harsh climate. If you can do it here, very rurally, then you can probably..,,

Hard to assert that any farming system is beyond Permaculture. Permaculture is a design system that incorporates locally-appropriate farming systems.

@@tealkerberus748 "appropriate" is not obvious, may vary. "Do-nothing-growing" (Fukuoka) stresses a thoughtful approach before acting. This saves energy by stopping actions that subvert nature, make problems. It requires a quiet attention to what nature is doing correctly, a reverence for what has worked forever.

where?

John Beard literally the entire bloody video

If there's a video and it DOESN'T discuss soil health....I lose interest! LOL

I am in Spain, and my herb spiral works fine. What's your Problem with it?

@@jochenwagner2782 are you irrigating it?

@@CarbonConscious In Summer, yes.

@@jochenwagner2782 herb spirals were designed to facilitate drainage to be able to grow Mediterranean herbs in wetter areas. In the Mediterranean there is no need for this and they end up requiring excessive watering for plants which don't need any water when planted directly in the ground. In the Mediterranean herb spirals dry out too fast

"derived from first principles" as they say : )