Same. I love how they basically made him a demi-god/Mutant King. I was convinced that they were going to adapt the Invisble Woman infatuation with any woman with a Wakandan cloaking device. I felt like they wouldn't be able to help themselves and it would distract from his other traits. Boy I was glad to wrong.
Imo I think Namor, his introduction, his level of intimidation and pure power was insane. I genuinely felt he was a menacing king when it called for him to be but he was also very compassionate overall as a person
Yeah Namor and his people's introduction was pretty goddang scary. Luring people to the water to drown themselves was pretty dark, specially when they did it to the Wakandan first responders lmao
@@duck-ew5zs totally. The sounds alone of those voices were hypnotic. It truly sounded like a sound that could make you jump to your death, and that made it so disturbing. And to see the heads coming out of the water in the dark... I've never felt very worried about any army in the mcu but when these guys appeared I was like "ooh shit"
@@bipolarewok Yeah when they did it the very first time I was very confused because it sounded like it's part of the soundtrack for the movie and the people are just jumping out of the ship for no reason. Truly an "oh shit" moment when you see that they're singing
The funniest thing about Namor is the reverse power creep. He looks so ridiculously strong and formidable because guys like Black Panther are gone. It’s kinda of another weird reverse parallel to comics Namor who got power creep because he showed BEFORE most other heroes.
I thought I was going to have a problem with Letitia too, but once the movie started and Shuri appeared, I completely forgot about it and enjoyed the performance Btw I originally thought that Riri was a weird addition as well, but after watching the movie I think her appearance worked, it was a good explanation of why she was there Also Ross appearance is 100% about the future of the MCU as a whole
I completely agree with you. I was expecting to be annoyed with her during the whole thing, but her performance successfully made me stop seeing her as letitia wright as she fully embodied her role. the film was such a success against all odds, and letita herself was a huge hurdle for them because of her nonsense. but they still turned out an amazing movie, so I thought it was really easy to forget that while watching. I think if the movie bombed we would feel differently. but man! what a performance
Okay so I liked Riri a lot. I’m not big on her in the comics, but after America Chavez being so straight laced, it was refreshing for Riri to have a personality. She felt streetwise and kind of troublesome. Her replication of stark tech felt obvious since it’s the most advanced tech the US has, and several scenes feel thematically connected to Tony (building with a hammer, flying into the atmosphere). I only wish Shuri verbally acknowledged how similar she used to be to Riri.
Same! It feels like a solid approach to adding flavor to the character. Reminds me how Into the Spider-Verse really fleshed out Miles and made him feel more unique. Love Bendis, but his characters can feel just a tad bland and all kinda speak the same, so these film adaptations finding the interesting things and playing them up is working for me. (For the record, I liked the handful of Ironheart comics I read.)
Riri and Shuri having pretty much he exact same handshake in switched positions where it was Shuri enter the lab and Riri working its pretty blatant acknowledgement. They couldn't have been any less subtle about it. ;)
i really appreciated how they adapted riri's story in the film. she was v much a genius in her own right without having someone else basically teach her all she knows or anything. i cannot wait for her show. the thing with america, i feel is bc she never had one place to grow. she kept bouncing to one dimension after another since she was like 6. she knows how different each place is so she has to be ready to adapt and not offend anyone to the point where she might be killed for smth she didn't know about their dimension. i think we'll discover more of her personality as she does going forward now that she's not necessarily on survival mode, which she'll also have to learn not to be in as well.
I gave her comics a go bcs I love her suit but they didn't do anything for me and I didn't get too far in, either way I still appreciated the character for her suit alone and I'm sure people also enjoy her character but this movie ruins her suit (ik it'll most likely change like Tony's but what where they thinking 😭) and I personally didn't enjoy her as a character, hopefully future movies change my mind tho
I loved the Namor approach because it also made him just suave enough to get why people would be downbad for him but also didn't shy from his more murderous tendencies.
Massive Namor fan chiming in - this was pitch perfect! The changes they made to his history made his story fit in to the themes of the Black Panther films, and he walked the line between a sympathetic, compassionate leader and a terrifying warlord. I found it very hard to root for either side in the main conflict and that, to me, turned this movie from a good marvel film to a great one
Not really sure how you can say that Namor wasn't arrogant. He attacked a country, killed their ruler and said "'l'll be back in 7 days, bury your dead and get your army ready, we're going to torch the entire planet and you're coming with me or I'll kill you all". Namor wasn't comically arrogant like he is in the comics, but there was no doubt he was arrogant, and I think that made him a better character. The big problem with Namor from the comics is no heroes would every work with him if he was that way, yet the do. That sort of character doesn't really translate to film. I do agree that Namor out Black Adam'd the Rock's Black Adam by a fair margin...maybe not saying "I'm not a hero" over and over again was a bad decision. :)
@@mickeymouse7726 , yeah I don't personally know where he's coming from tbh. My theory is that it has something to do with the feet wings cause he never elaborates
Basically Namor in the comics is an ass hole to the highest degree. So the fact he isn’t as much of an ass hole in Wakanda Forever makes him the best (according to your cousin) I guess.
I really liked it, I love the long epic marvel movies, feels like I get my money’s worth. And I was surprised how much Riri gave me Spider man in Civil War vibes, except she mattered in the plot more. Thought Namor was insanely good. I was surprised by how well this worked as a Shuri movie.
I actually really liked Riri’s inclusion here, I think it was the absolute smartest way to introduce her by basically going “hey you all accepted this extremely young super genius black girl, so you should be able to accept this one too” and then with that the way in which she becomes involved with the plot feels totally fair. She’s a large motivator of a fair amount of the plot and I don’t think it would work like it does without her, and then it’s just fun to use her for some tech stuff later on. I earnestly believe you would have a worse movie without her here
Personally, I think Riri should have been part of the story, but not part of the main protagonists. If they had her be this incredible brainy kid who got into this situation and they had to rescue her and figure out the situation, I can totally understand. But I didn't like them making her sort of a secondary hero. We had Shuri, Okoye, M'baku and Nakia as the main heroes and even Queen Ramonda as a very important part of the protagonists (just not part of the fight scenes). I feel like if they wanted to introduce Riri in this movie, it should have been without her being a hero and they could have revealed her actual heroic side in a post credit scene to build her up for later. Having entire story plot points centered around her and having parts of the action scenes also centered around her made it a bit much. She should have just been a minor character that shouldn't have taken attention away from the rest of the story between Wakanda and Talokan.
As someone who didn't like Namor in the comics, I think Namor in this movie is one of the best and most compelling MCU villains since Thanos Something I also want to mention is that there weren't even really any jokes in this movie... it was honestly a breath of fresh air
I’m glad ironheart was in the movie for one specific reason. All characters should be introduced in movies so that they have high quality CG assets for their TV show runners to use later on. Hopefully they’ve learned that from She-Hulk
I hadn't caught on to that Black Adam - Namor parallel, nice catch. Personally I think (and hope) Namor's expected arrogance was toned down because he was trying to manipulate Shuri, but it can be build upon as his presence grows in the MCU. It's also a shame that this movie had to complete two lists of tasks, the grief and mourning AND the MCU advancement. I think Riri and Ross were important for plot but they feel tacked on because the other half of the movie's purpose is just playing at an entirely different depth of emotion.
i did feel disappointed over namor not being the asshole i expected him to be, but what you said makes sense. his whole thing towards the end was to gain wakanda's empathy and become their allies. it was a strategic decision he expects will work in the long-term.
I had an odd thought watching the Everett Ross scenes. At one point, Julia Louis-Dreyfus tells him he looks good and asks him if he's been working out. And Martin Freeman does look like he's gotten in better shape. So here's my weird thought. In the comics, Thunderbolt Ross is, of course, Red Hulk. But with the death of William Hurt, and the recasting of Harrison Ford, who is 80 years old and kinda looks it, into that role, I have been thinking that he's probably not going to be Red Hulk. So what if they have a different Ross become Red Hulk in the MCU? What if Everett Ross becomes the Red Hulk? They just connected him to Julia Louis-Dreyfus's Valentina de Fontaine, who we're already pretty sure is going to be running the Thunderbolts team. Am I crazy?
Wouldn't mind that at all! I can't imagine Ford pulling off being Hulk-level angry, while I defo wouldn't want to be in the way of a Dr John Watson rageout
Dominique Thorne's Riri was my fave part of the movie by miles. I loved her personality, her suit, her whole vibe, i just love her. I can't wait to see her in the Young Avengers product they're setting up. I think her and Hawkeye would have AMAZING chemistry and if the rumors about what Billy is going to be like, they'd be great together too.
Fun fact: During the screening of this movie I attended, there were two moments when the audience was completely silent: when the Marvel intro with Chadwick played and during Shuri's funeral clothes burning on Haiti, when she just sat there. You could feel the respect and remembrance of him in those moments.
I liked the addition of Riri, bringing her to Wakanda made sense since Stark is dead. Shuri and her lab are the next best thing and I feel like she really helped Shuri deal with everything. I liked their friendship and Dominique Thorne was a great casting choice.
@@rudesword2852 Riri is here to complete the black diaspora. Last time it was Kilmonger. Wakanda represents all of Africa except black Americans. They refer to them as the Lost Tribe.
Which is why the movie needed the Ross _and_ Ironheart characters to show this. Ross gives us a window to what the government is doing, and the opening scene already shows us what the French are doing. Williams is needed because it shows that the US government and professor stole her machine because they wanted to track Vibranium as part of covert operations. Sure, there could have been other ways to show those things, but using Ross and Williams worked to satisfy those goals...it also worked to get a few scenes in Boston.
Your channel is so good. We have very different opinions on how things were handled and i love everything you said i get it. I don’t know much comic background but love hearing your insights and lore backing it up! As always great video! Keep it up 🥰
One I think I want to point out: The CH sound in Tenoch Huerta is soft (like in Chess or Approach), not hard like Murdoch or Epoch. I made the same mistake too, don't worry. EDIT: Also BPWF is the end of Phase 4 because they were like "DEAR FUCKING CHRIST we cannot end this on Love and Thunder"
I thought Letitia Wright was great in it, and I was able to separate the actress from the character here especially considering how incredibly science-forward and skeptic Shuri was here. I got the idea that she still didn't even believe the Ancestral Plane was real at the end of the movie. I think she melted into the character and I forgot about all the behind the scenes drama, similar to Top Gun Maverick where I went in ready to hate on Miles Teller for being an anti-vax terrible weirdo but his performance was so good all that kinda melted away. Not to mention the Tom Cruise cult stuff. For context, I am a Stage IV cancer patient who was horrified that only 1/3rd of people were wearing masks at the licensing office today.
When it comes to the in-universe context of T'Challa's death, while obviously unplanned, it does reflect real life in thematic ways too. Death is not always well-timed or poetic. The fiction reflecting reality was not the only way to go, but I understand why they did it and thought it was well done.
I agree that Letitia covid actions were stupid and not very wise. But I think it's important that we accept her apology, give her the benefit of the doubt, and forgive. Cuz I don't think we should be stuck on people's biggest mistakes, when they seem like great people otherwise. Love the review, appreciate the honesty of how you feel.
@@thomascheckie2394 Will you people stop policing black people's opinions. They have every right to be skeptical of vaccines given the history with medical health industry. And today still they harm black mothers
Personally I think people shouldn't be so obsessed with an actor's (or any artist) personal life or opinion. There are many movies I wouldn't be able to enjoy if I was worried about that
I think what sold namor for me was tenoch’s ability to switch from friendly to hostile in a second, 1 minute he’s like a therapist the next he’s the reason you’re going to a therapist.
Personally, as much as I disagreed with Letitia Wright's covid takes, I liked her performance and the character of Shuri enough for me to _mostly_ not think about it. Additionally--and this is proably some of my white guilt talking--I have a lot more tolerance for black people who were skeptical of the vaccine given America's very dark history with goverment sanctioned medical testing on the black community. I dont think that totally excuses anyone who's black from criticism as far as antivaxxing goes, but I do think it's I’mportant context to consider when having this conversation. Evangeline Lilly on the other hand, I have little to no sympathy for as far as all of that goes but we'll see how much that plays into my enjoyment of AM3 cause I think it'll be mighty hard for me to hate anything Paul Rudd is in. As far as Riri and Ross go: completely agree about Ross. I dont think his presence in the movie was notably bad but it felt wholey unnecessary as far as this story goes, and considering the films length I definitely wouldnt have missed him. As for Riri, I agree that she didnt bring a lot to the table in this movie but I do think I she fits into the bigger picture of Wakanda forever a lot better than Ross. Her connection to her father, while a very minor part of the movie, does at least connect to it's themes in a way that Ross' story never does. And as other commentors have mentioned, I think her working with Shuri and her lack of a connection to Tony is a good choice for the character and since the reality is we probably wouldnt have had time to do that relationship justice in her show, I am glad we got to see it here. And superficially I think a lot of the jokes that got the biggest laugh at my showing were either delivered by or directly related to her inclusion, so theres that for what its worth. And to breifly touch on Namor, I came out feeling pretty similar to you. As somone whos at least semi-familiar with the character from the comics, I did feel that at a lot of times this Namor ended up being pretty different to his 2D counterpart, but considering how good of a "villain" he was I’m more than willing to make that sacrifice. I will say that given his new history I think it would seem pretty out of character if he ends up having the relationship with Sue Storm that he does in the comics which is kind of a bummer; but again, a small price to pay for a very strong addition to the MCU. As always, love hearing your thoughts so keep 'em coming!
As someone who's bad at being concise, I don't like going in depth with comments because they end up going into the void. But I'll try cause I like ya, Nando :3 I want to preface this by saying all that I say going foreward, I say with empathy and kindness, and you are someone who puts out kindness into the world with your content so you deserve it. Riri was very important to the film and its themes as Killmonger pointed out. The first movie was all about the tension between homeland Africans/the black diaspora and black Americans. Kill monger felt Wakanda abandoned them, and the Queen giving her life to save Riri was so important symbolically. I'm Nigerian, and someone who is studying abroad for the opportunities. We were colonised by the British and it has had scars on our culture and many other nations that putsoders may never understand fully. This movie's themes on the effects if colonisation and its many facets was so poignant to me, but I know that's a very personal experience. I hope my comment offers some perspective of someone whose story is told in these BP films. Thank you and keep being awesome, Nando.
Just came back from the theater Wow Coogler and company 👏🏽 Letitia, Tenoch, and Angela ate for sure And I honestly think Namor was dope af, glad he’s alive cause the character needs more screen time Excited for the future of the BP world RIP Chadwick and Dorothy Steel 🕊
I think the dissonance between Letitia Wright's views and Shuri's emotional resonance is so great *because* Chadwick Boseman was such an upstanding person and truly represented T'Challa IRL Ironheart was more of a MacGuffin than a character and the backdoor piloting is getting pretty annoying, but otherwise the movie was very good, and I loved Talokan/Namor
Counterargument: Michael Stuhlberg's cameo in Doctor Strange 2 was absolutely perfect and was actually very important for setting up the dramatic stakes of the film. He is someone who knows Strange, but not too well. He's a common person who was GREATLY affected by this decision that Strange made totally on his own. And that's the whole point. Strange insists that trading the Time Stone was the only way to beat Thanos, but it came at a great cost which he arrogantly doesn't fully acknowledge. Stuhlberg is our window into that cost, and reminds us of this early in the film. His cameo is actually one of the more interesting dramatic parts of the film.
Follow-up: Cause I can see an argument being made that this role could have been better served by someone who doesn't know Strange, who could really dig into him ala what Alfre Woodard's character does for Tony in Civil War. However, a key point with Woodard's character is that because she's so harsh, Tony actually winds up agreeing with her and makes a significant change (agreeing to the Accords) because of the guilt he feels. Strange does not make this change, at least not right away. By the end of the film, he will grow to a point where he will trust in America Chavez and relinquish some of his own need for control (an arc I feel kind of lessens Strange as a character and makes him less unique, but that's beside the point). In order for him to have any such arc, he has to "win" the confrontation with Stuhlberg. In using someone who knows Strange at least a little bit, you allow this avenue. Strange does hear Stuhlberg, and does sympathize with him, but stands his ground. And Stuhlberg reluctantly accepts that maybe Strange was right. We're able to leave the question dangling and the moral conflict unresolved for the time being, something which I feel was best served by using this specific person in this moment. The movie has a lot of bad writing choices, but this was one of the few that really worked imo.
I think people are missing why the Agent Ross stuff was important. For me, I think Ryan Coogler was making a bit of commentary on black and brown race relations, and how there’s always been this idea of if all marginalized communities came together, they could change everything. But throughout history, the United States and others have always found ways of creating division by pitting us against each other. The Agent Ross vs Director scenes act as a fill in for the rest of the world, and how they’re waiting in the wings for Wakanda and *mystery group* to take eachother out. I think without those scenes where the Director is seemingly on the verge of figuring it out, we’d only be left with the beginning scenes where France is implicated. But this entire conflict of Wakanda vs Talocan is built on the foundation of powerful nations such as The US and their history of colonization and stealing resources. For me, their continued presence feels like a ticking time bomb that builds the states of why it’s so important these two nations can come to a truce. I can only imagine the Wakanda tv show will pick up the baton on what the US’s intentions are going forward
Interestingly, I mentioned yesterday to my husband (who doesn't really know the comics that well) that I felt Namor's arrogance really shone through well in this film, and explained some of the things he didn't get about his actions as the movie's villain. For me, if anything I thought he lacked in the moody department 😜
I really liked the movie. It's the first movie where an actor was *not* in the movie and yet was felt throughout the entire movie. The silent opening credits, Queen Ramonda's speech, M'baku'w maturity and Kill monger's appearance all serve to emphasize what was lost when Black Panther died. I also though Letitia Wright's RW regretful choices during the pandemic would affect how I perceived Shuri. But... In contrast to other celebrities, she actually realized her mistakes, retracted and apologized. And I think those are important things as well, to show that mistakes can be just that, and we can forgive and move on *when* people show growth. Namor was amazing. In comics he's been both a hero and a villain, and I love how Marvel chose to portray him. As you said the better Black Adam, a man willing to go to any lengths to protect the people he loves. Last thing, as an Asian, it kept popping in my head, "Wow, Marvel really made a movie about black people fighting Mexicans". I don't mean that as a bad thing or a good thing. Just a vibe that I had. Love your channel.
Gonna be honest Nando, I LITERALLY didn't see that coming as a reason to detract from this film. And the reason behind that is that I unequivocally forgot that she did those things. I rarely am caught off guard by anything these days, especially on the internet... But man, you couldn't given me a million chances to guess that one. And I still would've been lost...
I’m heavily against viewing characters as their actors. I couldn’t care less what an actor’s personal politics are, only if they’re good at their job - you know, acting like they’re someone who’s not them. So I find it ridiculous for people to be taken out of the movie by Letitia Wright or to demand the firings of her or Gina Carano or James Gunn or any of them. If I allowed my opinions about an actor’s politics or opinions or personality to color my view of their character, then like 90% of Hollywood would be unwatchable for me lol.
@@JediMaestr0 If you're a bigot who spread hate against a section of group. You shouldn't be given any job period. Learn how to be a decent human being and you'll be welcomed in the community.
Actually that's a fair point once you look into it most people in Hollywood have done or said questionable things, personally I have limits (e.g. I'll most likely not watch the flash movie as I find many accusations against Ezra genuinely concerning that I wouldn't feel comfortable seeing them in a heroic light) . But degree of separation is definitely needed to be able to enjoy stuff.
Two comments: Agree - Ironheart was crowbarred in for the synergy, and I think it was wholly unnecessary. Much like the earthquakes underwater line in Endgame as a set, they could have just left her as a macguffin and introduce her later. Sure, a she's the one who created the device so Namor and the Atlanti...I mean Talokanians want to find her as do the Wakandans, but they can all arrive at the same time, and Ross and the Dora can still chase them down, and continue the plot - all without extensive involvement, and then that's all she's in the movie. Like the dean in Spider Man NWH, she's focus of a rescue, and then gone. Because she adds nothing to the rest of the story and does not need to be involved. Let them launch her show starting with the chase, and then have Wakandans come back later and do some deeper MCU integration. Disagree - Namor's tone was perfect and he did not need to be as arrogant as his comics version is. Unlike other antagonists, he's not meant to be a bad guy, and it would be a huge mistake to try to make him into a villain. The whole oops! good guys fight due to a misunderstanding is fine...the Thor vs IM / Cap in Avengers work great, and as this film has shown, there's plenty to fight and resolve. Too arrogant and he's not likeable. Unlikeable and he's not endearing. Not endearing and he's unnecessary. Namor has the noble and protector of his people thing, like T'Challa for Wakanda, Thor for Asgard, and Cap for, well, everyone and freedom. He can ease into being more of a jerky, moody, brash hothead in other films - and still be likeable. Like Starlord, Dr. Strange, and Tony Stark, Namor can be combative with others and even break from what his heroic counterparts are thinking, but his motivation is always for the good of his people and himself. He can work up to it...
My main issue with the movie: It makes zero sense in context within the rest of the MCU 1) an alien/god attacked and killed 50% of all life in the universe… believe me nobody would be arguing over vibranium. We would definitely be sharing that and weaponizing in case of another attack 2) Namors motivation makes zero sense in context. This is a king who recently lost 50% of his empire again because of an alien/god attack, but no Vibranium being discovered in the ocean is where he draws the line. That’s when he has to reveal himself and do something about it. Makes no sense. The second after the snap (or the blip if he was dusted) hed reveal himself to the surface world and try to figure out what just happened.
My main gripe with Iron Heart is *spoiler* I thought that they were building up the idea of Riri’s professor selling/using Riri’s tech and that they would try to find that person but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Also while I think Nakia’s son is adorable, it feels very Disney for them to be like, here’s our next Black Panther, a child. They’re definitely future proofing
Yeah I had that same future proofing thought, like give it a few years and we’ll get a time jump or see a possible future with him as the future black panther
@@JasonBerger631 It won’t even take a time jump. 4 years passed between Black Panther 1 and 2. By the time there could be a Black Panther 4, T’Challa Jr could already be college-aged and you could throw him right into the mix
I've been seeing a lot of discourse around this movie, a lot of people talking about why it didn't work for them. This is a movie from MARVEL that made me cry like 5 times, introduced probably my favorite villain since thanos that stacks up with Killmonger, Hela, Loki, and all the other MCU greats, brought a ton of cultural representation for mesoamerican cultures and their history, looked better than the rest of phase 4 easily, and honored and respected the legacy of chadwick boseman. The discourse makes sense, but this movie really hit for me personally and i'm so so glad it turned out the way it did. Agree on cutting the ross stuff though, and with Riri i think they could've kept her in the movie as a smart character without the ironheart stuff and it would've worked a lot better
I totally agree. Keep Riri in the movie, but just a scientist, not in the suit yet. You've introduced her to the world, you've laid the groundwork, you've let the actress' charisma and the character's personality start winning people over, but you're not overcrowding a movie that already has to introduce an entirely new culture AND handle the death of the main character.
Regarding the matter of Letitia Wright: I don't think replacing her would have worked, at all. Like, this film being dedicated to Boseman, and telling a story that is, in an incredibly significant way, about his death, the character at the heart of the film being played by a new actor, whom the audience has no connection to, and who had no connection to him... would just feel fundamentally hollow. I feel similarly about the Wright thing as you, but (whether or not it's worth it) this film absolutely could not exist without her; a Black Panther 2 with a different Shuri has to be a totally different movie.
I look at the Letitia Wright situation like this: I can permit stupidity, but not malice. A chief example of this is Tom Cruise if we're talking about dangerous ideologies Scientology is right up there with vaccine denial in severity, if not scope and size. And yet, according to most reports, even from people who've left scientology, Tom Cruise is shielded from the worst of it and treated like a God. Put that together with the fact that he hasn't really pushed his ideology much beyond when he first found it, and I can write it off as a part of his life I certainly don't approve of and wish would change, but I wont fully condemn the man for. Not when we have so many examples of celebrity making you stupid. Letita Write posted some video with anti trans and anti vax bullshit on it (just for the anti vax if her later statements are to be believed), got roasted by the public and by Disney, and though she hasnt changed her views, she has to my understanding shut up about them. Idk, maybe its the post Kevin Spacey era, and the era where Mel Gibson is getting work again, it feels a bit unfair to me to condemn actors for just being stupid. If they cause actual harm, or get openly hateful, racist, sexist, abusive, homophobic, transphobic, etc then absolutely cancel them like a Netflix original show after season 3. Until that point, I'll just take a leaf out of their book and "hate the sin, tolerate the sinner, and love the characters that the sinner plays."
I know I'm late to this but I had the same feelings about Wright and difficulty separating her from the role and I wonder how much the controversy she sparked caused her storyline to include "Scientist aggressively seeks cure, takes chance to save lives" Like when she doesn't want to be buried when she's taking the artificial herb because she might have a heart attack I half expected her to say something about "spike proteins"
I think Nakia should've become the new Black Panther. Shuri makes sense as family, but she's already well defined as the tech genius. Nakia on the other hand is a spy but that's pretty much all we know about her. She part of T'Challa's family as we find out, and Lupita Nyongo is a more well-known and well liked actress than Leticia Wright.
Really appreciate this review. As someone who's unlikely to see this until it hits streaming (or at least not until I travel to see family around Christmas, getting to a theater here is a pain), it's a nice preview of what to expect without ruining any of it. I'll be interested to see how our opinions line up.
Haven't seen the movie yet, but I'm glad to hear you affirming that Namor was played well. Sad to hear that Ironheart didn't really bring much to the table plot wise, I've been really curious about that character for a while
Riri and Ross both makes sense for the plot. Sure they could have written it so they weren't needed at all, but it's not like they don't make any sense in the movie as he implies. If we're doing that with characters in movies we they could cut character from literally every MCU movie ever made.
@@andrewshandle that sure wasn't the implication I got from the review. Having now seen the movie, I think what he meant was that they function more as plot devices than as characters who drive the plot in any significant way? The only exception is Ross giving them a lead in the first 30 minutes
@@stinkbutt3168 I don't really understand why that's a problem though. Spider-man's inclusion in Civil War not only did nothing for the story, it was logically inconsistent with the story since Pete dent' sign the Accords, yet nobody said a word about it. Sure, these two characters could have been removed/replaced if they change around the script, but at least they both made sense withn the story: 1) Nobody had figured out how to track vibranium, so they used that to introduce Riri as one of the smartest people in the world because she cracked the code when nobody else on the planet could solve the problem. 2) The audience needed an easy way to see how the US government felt about Wakanada, otherwise a bunch of people are going to complain down the road that the change by the US to go after Wakanda felt sudden and forced. Ross is the perfect way to do that, and by arresting him and revealing that Val is after all the vibranium we've established that the new Secretary of State and the new CIA Director are going to be major Big Bads in movies to come. It also shows up how the bloom is off the rose with Wakanda and all the major super powers are taking aim at it's resources. I'm honestly at a loss as to why so many people are saying the characters didn't have any value.
@@andrewshandle Oh they totally make sense within the constraints of the story, they just don't bring much to the table otherwise. The whole Val plotline feels a lot like them being like "hey the Thunderbolts are going to be a much bigger deal than you thought." As far as Spiderman goes, I've never thought about that, but that's a solid point. I...think he gets more of a pass for contributing nothing to the plot, because of how well known he is? There are definitely fans of Ironheart out there, and I guess Everett Ross too...but they're not on the same level in that way, so including Spiderman as fanservice is an easier pill to swallow, maybe? It's sort've like the recasting Thunderbolt Ross being ok and T'Challa not being ok discussion, but in reverse.
I would say that the common theme of phase 4 is “expanding the MCU” - we have the Hex in WANDAVISION, the TVA in LOKI, “the multiverse”in LOKI, WHAT IF, SPIDER-MAN: NO WAY HOME, & DR. STRANGE IN MOM, Ta-Lo in SHANG-CHI, the Eternals and Celestials in ETERNALS, the Duat in MOON KNIGHT, Omnipotent City, Eternity, & the Shadow Realm in THOR 4, MCU 4th Wall Breaks in SHE-HULK, and now Talocán in WAKANDA FOREVER.
100% agree about Phase 4 villains being pretty good overall (although there were some real stinkers like Tyler Hayward, the Flag Smashers, and Clan Destine).
I know some Namor purists may be disappointed, but considering there is already a Billion dollar Atlantian superhero franchise and the untapped potential of stories about South American mythology, I think they made the right choice
this is exactly my feelings - top to bottom. i was hoping and praying that nakia would have an expanded role, and when i realized that it was a story that was about shuri and her struggles, it just killed things for me. as someone who has to STILL remain vigilant against covid, her comments have really soured my experience. and thats really sad cause the namor stuf was AMAZING and i can't wait until he shows up again. black panther once again gives us one of the best and most compelling villains in the MCU. but for me, someone who going to the theater is actually a huge struggle because of his health.... it wasn't worth it. and its frustrating. its not a bad movie, but there are things that i can't ignore that creep in from the outside, and thats really too bad. also this movie was SUPER depressing in parts and i was hoping that it would be a more uplifting story. anyways, my thoughts.
Not only do I think T’Challa’s death was handled elegantly enough that it works as a story without the real-world context (I’ve seen so many movies/show write off characters far less elegantly, such as Leia in Star Wars, or Cordelia in Angel etc). I have to assume that anyone watching Wakanda Forever 20 years in the future with no context will assume the Chadwick Boseman died in real-life when they see the actor himself being memorized in the opening “Marvel Studios” title card.
As someone who kinda hates Namor, this Namor was amazing. I feel like Namor is just too unlikable in the comics, and this adaptation of him is just enough like him to be recognizable without turning a large portion of viewers against him immediately, which is very important if he's going to return in a non-antagonist role to help fight Kang, or later on Doom.
I was worried I was going to happen a problem with Leititia Wright, but the moment I saw Shuri on screen, I only saw Shuri. It was a fantastic performance, and I can’t call it anything but.
Always appreciate your thoughtfulness to these reviews. It seems clear that this might be one movie where you have too many external issues clouding your view. Do agree on the length and them cutting the riri storyline would’ve let it breathe better.
While watching Wakanda Forever I felt something that I only ever felt from another piece of fiction while playing the epilogue of RDR2, the reason for this feeling is pretty obvious but describing it is kinda hard, I'm watching a story deeply connected to Chadwick but Chadwick simply cannot be there, it feels like being sick, like a fever dream, it feels like all hope is lost even while nothing bad is happening in the story
I was totally thinking what other mcu series this could have worked with. If by some horrible chance one of the leads died, which series has a strong enough supporting cast to cut out the "main" hero and still function this well. Like MAYBE guardians? If you count Pratt as the lead.
I think it’s easier for me to let Evangeline Lily slide on the antivax stuff because watching her play Kate on Lost for six seasons taught me to never expect her to make any good decisions ever.
Ehh I'm pretty good at separating the actor from the role, and personally sharing a video with misinformation is not enough to land someone on my bad list especially as far as I know she didn't continue spreading misinformation after being called out. Letitia Wright's performance was really good in the movie and I really enjoyed Shuri.
I really like the movie, I do, but as such a fan of the Atlantis lore, I was kinda disappointed by what they did to Atlantis. It wasn't bad, I just really like how canonically, vampires came from a death cult in Atlantis finding Scarlet Witch's Burn Book. I really, really like the idea of Vibranium being treated as Orichalcum and it was great, but Atlanteans just being stoned slaves felt weird. When I wasn't thinking "oh, like a vaccine" whenever Shuri said something, I was confusing Riri with Shuri's character in the first movie. I was very excited to see more clumpy suits like RIri's, and the Midnight Angel was dope.
Martin Freeman was there for at least one good reason: to show the actual threat the world has on wakanda. The constant being on the verge of war of the USA made Namor's claims very true and believable, and the tension with USA was very interesting to me as a plot point.
I went into the movie trying to give Letitia wright the benefit of the doubt, i haven't heard from her lately and maybe she changed as a person, but even then I was still oscillating when it comes to empathizing w shuri because of her. I still enjoyed the movie regardless but for me it was missing something and I don't really know what it was, because the plot made sense, characters were individually amazing, there were some great emotional moments but as a whole movie something was missing, something about the passing was off and is not that it wasn't slow, eternals is one of my favorite marvel movies and that's a movie that let scenes linger
Really liking the content on the second channel. Very chill vibes. Hope you do these kinds of reviews for all the upcoming Marvel and DC films. Anyways the antivax stuff with Letitia Wright is very bad and all but my biggest issue with her is that if you go to the channel that she was linking videos from, the people who run the channel have extremely transphobic views. I'm fairly certain some of the videos she linked directly had transphobic stuff in them. As for the finale of Phase 4, don't worry because technically it's not. The Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special is technically. Still doesn't really fit as a finale but oh well
exactly. like anti-vax stuff... cringe but your body yeah whatever(still don't put the rest of the people in danger though, you live in a community) but the transphobic shit? yeah nah that's straight up bigotry. fuck her for that
I just got out of the theater and I LOVED it. I agree it was long but man the actors stepped UP! If this movie doesn’t get Oscar nods it’ll be a shame. I agree that there was a lot of meta interaction with the real world context but the Letitia stuff didn’t bother me. We are all products of what the algorithms feed us and so many people got sucked into weird spaces during Covid that I’m willing to forgive her. And her performance truly blew me away. I never loved Namor in the comics so I really appreciated this revamp, with all the cultural representation and realism and the actor rocked the role. I would totally agree that this was the best movie of phase 4 and one of the best MCU movies, definitely one of the best MCU sequels. And that Namor was the best villain so far in phase four. I’m excited that he wasn’t killed so that the character can be explored more in the future.
Only weird thing is Namor thinking he has a chance against the surface world We pollute the seas with chemicals, noise and radioactive materials without knowing there's someone down there with the power to oppose it, imagine how much it would ramp up if there were
Ngl I know people aren’t too thrilled about the runtime but honestly I like good long epic, even if some elements felt like they could’ve been cut. Honestly I’d even argue that Iron Heart at least had a purpose in the plot that helped push the movie forward, although she would’ve been a better fit in the movie if she wasn’t just relegated to wise cracks and “oh wows” and had contributions to the themes of grief and moving on. Also, I get your gripe against Everett Ross being in the movie, but ngl I love Martin Freeman and anytime he’s on screen Im having a good time. And at least he had a fun bit with his…ahem…interesting relation to Val and his plot line did add to the rising tension of the story.
I'm really glad you addressed the whole Letitia Wright thing. I'm the sort of person who can't ignore who an actor is if they've been particularly obnoxious/nasty irl and I've had a hard time finding a review that mentions her in that way. I'm excited to see Namor but I think I'll wait till the movie is out of theaters before making an effort to see it, especially with that runtime.
What I adore about Namor in this, which I think is a perfect translation from the comicbooks Namor, is the balance that he strikes between being a thing of divine beauty and a monstrous brute. Like on the one hand, he's elegant, handsome, precise, sophisticated and regal. On the other hand, he's strong, powerful, ruthless, viscous and threatening. This portrayal has that balance perfectly aligned with the comicbook version. That, to me, is at the heart of what I love about him in the comics and now this movie.
I'm so proud of Latitia Wright as a fellow Christian for standing by her conviction then delivering a truly monumental performance despite everything from sexism, racism to vacism trying to cancel her.
I think that i might've watched too much of your videos Mr. Nando V Movies... I just explained my feelings for this movie to three friends and your words here right now cleanly explains how i felt @_@
As someone who has overcome COVID-19, I'm not sure how an actor's personal beliefs and preferences is relevant to a review of a movie. No one else's review seems to have thought it had made a difference.
Imo the movie is about mourning, and moving on. And I think the movie stands well on its own even without outside context. All the characters work within their established roles, and react accordingly to the themes of the film. While there is certainly an "outside" theme in play, the themes within the movie is completely standalone and can be told on its own without knowing the real world context
M'Baku makes even less sense as Black Panther than Shuri. The Jabari Tribe are symbolized by Gorillas first, and secondly his characterization is fleshed out where he's his own thing. He's the burly guy and Shuri's the tech genius. Nakia should've been the new Black Panther since she's less defined as a character and not an obvious choice. Plus she's played by a well known actor which helps.
About what you said about not feeling like the end of phase 4, very few parts of this phase have felt coherent with each other so having something really feel like a conclusion is almost impossible. The most consistent parts of the phase were Val and Wong. Maybe Quantumamia would be a better fit, we'll find out next year, but I like that that's the start of phase 5. (Also, what phase is the GotG Holiday Special in?)
Letitia Wright’s dumbassery completely fell away watching this film. I didn’t have any issue with the emotional beats surrounding Shuri. That said, I think this is a much weaker film than the original, and is mainly let down by its pacing and editing.
Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers I’d argue in favor of Everett Ross and Riri. Did Riri have a real narrative need to be in the film, probably not. Everett was an important link into the American government and their perspective on Wakanda and largely how the outside world is perceiving the events of the film as a direct foil to the “inner circle” Wakandan characters. Ok forreal don’t read further if you don’t want spoilers But I think she served an important representational role and soften the drama just a bit with her punchy attitude and snarky dialogue. She served to progress the idea of how did someone come up with a vibranium detector. There was a lot of underlying narrative subtext about the effects and memory of colonialism. Riri’s labor is literally stolen. This echoes the enslavement of the indigenous people that Namor sees in his youth and Haiti is repeatedly referenced, a notable state that like Wakanda used any means necessary to liberate its people
I saw the first one when it went streaming, thought it was OKAY. But then the BP2 trailer dropped, and got me real interested. Just saw it tonight. It was pretty good, better than the first. But weirdly underlit in a lot of scenes, and a little slow. But the final act was great. And am excited to get Namor, and like full-on Namor.
Hi, Nando. I'd really like to see a ONE SMALL CHANGE video about Wakanda Forever. So much, that I'm offering you my own pitch on it: In my version, Riri Williams was discovered by a Wakandian Educational Center in US, and is rewarded with a academic extension in Shuri's lab in Wakanda, where she develops the vibranium radar, that drives the US millitary attention to Talocan. This small change provides: - More interaction between these two black young geniuses (I'd like to see some contention before fellowship) - A credible reason for Talocan quarrell with Wakanda and Namor demanding they handing over Riri to him - A credible reason for Wakanda's queen and princess to feel that its their duty to protect the girl with their lives - A more dramatic subaquactic rescue, with a well succeded female extraction team headed by Nakia, who nonetheless dies in the effort - An opportunity for cutting off all that scenes in US and shortening the movie some 20 good minutes What do you think?
I was able to seperate letitia from shuri while i was watching the film, and i was incredibly emotionally invested. however, as a trans person, what letitia did fucking hurt, and it makes me a bit sad to hear no apology or even acknowledgement from her
As a person who doesn’t like comic Namor. I absolutely loved this version of Namor. I don’t completely understand why they didn’t just do Atlantis but I think it worked very well to make it feel more immersive
i think Letitia's issue also came into my mind. I have yet to see this movie, because of all the marvel fatigue. But I would have cast that aside, as long as the movie was good. But in real life ? no, probably not.
Objectively speaking, my wing criticism is that they try to do too much in one movie, which is usually an issue with superhero movies. I think the introduction of iron heart and Namor was just too much for one movie, and they should’ve leaned into one or the other.
yeah it's hard to think about Letita's definite nonsense when a) she did an amazing performance and b) the focus is entirely on boseman. I feel like once you get in there all other context goes away. It helps that disney is very good at shutting things down. With Letita and Evangeline, it was one maybe two issues. Easy to compare but actors on the other side of the pond have continuous issues that due to that stay in your brain. I don't like what those actresses did but the powers behind the film did the absolute best they could to make sure we weren't thinking about it during
I LOVED Black Panther 1.... Black Panther 2 was very "meh okay" it did some things very well and it had a massive shadow over it. It was a good movie, but I did not love it.
I understand your feelings about Riri, but I thoroughly disagree. I think a lot of people are looking too deeply into who her character is (Ironheart) and not the purpose of her being there.
Nando, I know you have stated you are moving away from doing rewrites, but I would love to see you do a rewrite for BP2 that still has Chadwick Boseman/Tchalla. It would almost be an irl “What If”; what if Tchalla hadnt died and he was in the events of Wakanda Forever?
