Developing strong healthy boundaries is the kryptonite to Narcissism. Saying yes when you mean yes, NO when you mean no and I need to think about it when you don’t know and make it clear that you won’t be pushed over. This will send them running… and you’ll also find there are more of them than you thought.
I am a 64 yo cis gay man who, by outward appearances, has had a meaningful career and successful life. Only my closest friends know how ambivalent I am about the gay community and our fixation about youth and beauty. I lost literally hundreds of friends during the AIDS pandemic and then my urban family during COVID. I struggle with PTSD and chronic depression at a time when my looks are fading. I’ve never felt like I wanted to be a part of a culture who is often bitchy, superficial and judgmental. And yet, I long for connection with other men. To be a gay man today is to live with a history of trauma. Much to my surprise, my closest relationships are with straight men who also seek emotional intimacy from other men. I’m working through therapy to face the deep pit of loneliness I feel. I’m optimistic about having a more fulfilled life but the struggles are painful and real.
Thank you for sharing your honest and heartfelt thoughts. Your resilience is inspiring, and I hope your journey towards healing and connection brings you the fulfillment and support you seek.
I've noticed a similar thing in myself. Disconnected from it at age 23 (knew who I was and realized that my tolerance for that type of pretension was very little), but felt that gnawing longing for male contact into my later 20s. Befriended more heterosexual friends along the way (which I will say is healing in its own right, grateful for the great connections I made, and I think we stand to benefit with having friendships with men who are heterosexual). It has made dating during that time challenging because so many are still caught up in the low vibrational consciousness of it all. It can be a lonely journey to discover and honor the Self. However, your resilience will be rewarded. It does not go unnoticed. The pain in honoring your Being is worth the pain of drowning in a sea of narcissism.
Right on! In 1969 at the age of 25, I remember seeing the movie The Boy😮s in the Band. I thought, if this is what "they" are like, I want nothing to do with these bitching queens. It was only 8 years later that I realized that many gay 😢men were not like this...thanks to the post-Stonewall uprising and the Gay Lib movement.
Seeing The Boys in the Band in 1969 delayed my self acceptance by 8 years. Only after Stonewall and the uprising of the Gay Lib movement in 1977 did I realize that many gay men are not like those bitches.
Thank you for this. I have lost so many gay friends to this. I refuse to give “fuel” to any narcissist gay or straight. The out of control narcissism I have observed starting in 2008 and really studying it start with the 2012 book “the narcissism epidemic” and so on. The rise of social media and many gay friends who actually have distain for the as I call it “indifference of equality” So many of the community seem to hate that and I quote “Nobody really cares anymore” Well that is true equality, indifference. Why does the gay community who fought so hard to been seen as no different than others are so angry that they actually have that? I am seeing full on rage filled episodes because nobody cares. Sexuality is not a personality trait and it’s sad that my friends fell into that hole and are getting more and more aggressive about it.
We're so sorry for your losses. It's heartbreaking to see friends struggling. Your insights about narcissism and the complexities of the community are important. It's a challenging situation.❤
@@GayMenGoingDeeper I find it more baffling than anything else. Then again the simpsons called it in 2003 when during the gay pride parade when they shout the “We’re here. . .” Mantra Lisa replies “We are used to it, you do this every year.” To which a response of “Spoilsport” So I guess it’s been a problem for a lot longer than we realize
@@focusedonfuture3255 Absolutely, it's baffling how this issue continues to occur. The Simpsons reference highlights just how long we've been dealing with this.😮💨
I experienced having a narcissistic friend and like Ken stated it’s so draining on your mental health. He would constantly seek compliments and validation from me, along with others around him. All eyes had to be on him at all times. If someone complimented me or he wasn’t getting attention in the group he would literally do a full split on the floor to get peoples attention. Also, he would never give compliments and when he did it seemed forced or like he was envious. He really showed his true colors when he tried to crush my hands in between a car door when he was “drunk” one night after the club. He was “too drunk” to remember that, but wasn’t too drunk to drive 30 miles home from the club. I love to paint, so I think he purposefully tried to break my fingers for that reason.
That's evil. I remember someone, a very closeted gay guy, who criticized my life and what I did, stating lack of interest. 5-6 years after we stopped communication, he was virtually copying everything I did then in 2016. My comfort lies in the realization that because he was a sleazy person, everything he did gave the game away on his personality and agenda.
Thank you, Matt and Ken! One of the best things I've heard / seen in a long time on the topic, and not just regarding narcissism, but the issue with gay men and our adherence to external validation issues (which, obviously, as discussed, certainly can plague us all and has its tie-ins with narcissism.) I picked up Alan Downs', 'The Velvet Rage' in 2005 and from the minute I read, it resonated with me immediately. As you know, it profoundly speaks on authentic validation vs inauthentic (external) validation. And this was back in 2005 - WAY before Instagram... really, way before social media was doing its thing. I was in my mid-30s back then. I'm now 55. I've been saying, consistently, for the past years, that with the advent of Instagram, it was like basically just rolling out the red carpet to perpetuate gay men's (already intrinsic reflex) to not look inward and to, instead, go for the easiest, truth-deflecting, surface-level, presentational flag to wave. It promoted the antithesis of everything Downs was saying was imperative that we, as gay men, needed to focus on. So - to 19 years ago, read a book (written for gay men) that so profoundly addressed the topic of inauthentic validation (and its obstacle to our path towards authenticity and joy) and to now, years later, live in a time where that same concept is reduced to catch phrases of "thirsty Thursday" / thirst traps on instagram... (almost like it's a cute thing) with no weight given to the level of dysfunction of it all, it couldn't feel more disheartening. Like this is where we've come in almost 20 years?? This is why it's so important that your podcast exists now. Ken, your comment, "when it comes to our community, I honestly think it does incentivize the creation of narcissism" is spot on. I've always said , anytime we make a choice to become a follower of a somatic narcissist's IG, or even just hit a like on their post, you're just adding to the whole problem. And at some point the cycle needs to stop. So I really thank you guys examining the topic so completely.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. It's powerful to reflect on the evolution of our community and how external validation impacts us. Your insights are invaluable, and I appreciate your support for the podcast. Let's keep striving for authenticity and connection. 🌈💪Btw, we’d love to grow the podcast so we can reach more guys like you who would benefit from this. It would be super helpful if you gave the show a 5-star rating and review on whatever platform you’re listening to us on. PS: If it’s on Apple, here’s the link: podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/gay-men-going-deeper/id1535102476
Fellows! Great discussion. The topic causes so much anxiety. I guess I've been lucky, steering away from folks of NPD ilk. I am in 12 step recovery, AA & others, where grandiosity is highlighted as alcoholic behavior, among the defects we seek to transcend. I have a laughably simplistic observation: i do not own a TV, when i happen to watch, it's news, or movies, or oldies, say Perry Mason. Ahem. I detest sitcoms. They are dominated by putdown humor, made benign by a laugh track, & characters who laugh it off. Then people emulate that behavior in actual social situations. Which is tooo bad because in reality it's injurious.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! It's insightful how you've navigated away from narcissistic personalities and found solace in recovery groups. All the best!🤩
Resident psychiatrist here. Really enjoying the conversation you're having. It's good to hear and see that you're holding a space for discussion how much of our conditioning influences and feeds a lot of the pretension that we see in the maintsream community. I appreciate you linking the DSM criteria into the subtypes of narcissism and how the childhood trauma (and neglect) could yield a false self in the modern gay man. We've all seen it and all noticed it and I appreciate the clinical and social bridging. Less shame, less guilt, more function, and more integration.
Love dialogue that touches the soul! The challenging one always comes bearing gifts. Our spiritual practice is to see the gifts of life. Only those who see the gifts respond to life with gratitude. Everyone is on the same journey, the one that leads inward.
Absolutely! Embracing the challenges as opportunities for growth and finding gratitude in the journey inward is a beautiful perspective. Thanks for sharing! 🌟✨
This has been one of the deepest dive discussions on this program. Much food for thought. One new notion I picked up from this is the avoidant attachment style of the narcissist. I have encountered this in only meeting someone online, but not yet in person.
Glad you found the discussion insightful! The idea of avoidant attachment styles in narcissism is indeed an interesting aspect. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! 👍🌟
THANK YOU SOO MUCH!!! As a straight man who is not homophobic and very accepting of gay men , I have been the subject of many narcissistic interactions with gay men and even women whether it be unwanted sexual advances, continuous compliance tests , and even being picked on ( mean girl/guy syndrome) bc I have empathic qualities that initially seem favorable to a narcissist. I have had to put my foot down by being rude , threatening violence to enforce boundaries . This was a very informative and kind of light bulb video that I am not crazy because I have always felt that gay men/women have a high propensity for narcissism and did not know why. This video was very well spaced out and commend two (presumably) gay men for not attacking the gay community , but addressing this culture and attempting to push to culture forward very the betterment of not only a narcissist but people that deal with them so once again . THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you for sharing your experience! We're glad the video resonated with you and provided some clarity. It's great to hear that you found the discussion informative and balanced. Your feedback is much appreciated!😍
We're thrilled to hear that you find our discussions helpful! Thank you so much for tuning in and for your support. We're glad to have you as part of our community!🤩🏳🌈
Very useful and informative as always. Good to be aware of a few things to work on. Yeah, I guess a lot of us have some of these things to some degree, but I guess that if we know how to control it and not affect us and others, most of us should be fine. Thanks as always!
I’m a woman and my mum is a narssasest and psycho I have c p s d so it’s hard for anyone with ppl like this around them because it brings you down and hard to function later on in life
I'm sorry to hear about your struggles. Dealing with a narcissistic and challenging parent can be incredibly tough. Take care of yourself, and know that you're not alone in facing these difficulties.
I believe being queer actually protected me from becoming a narcissist like my abusive parent. Narcissists believe their worldview is the only worldview. Being queer and facing discrimination helped me become more aware of the privilege I had because I directly felt the loss of privelege. Seeing that the world treated me differently when my identity came to light made it much easier to understand discrimination against women and other groups at-risk groups. When I came out and my narcissistic parent rejected me, it became much easier for me to break the cycle. It comes down to self-awareness and empathy. Most narcissists I know are not very sexual. They offer it at first, and pull it back after you invest in them. There certainly are hypersexual narcissists, but most are not. Dr. Ramani has said similar things.
That's really insightful perspective. It's inspiring to hear how your experiences have helped you develop empathy and self-awareness. Your journey is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit.
I don't think sensitive people attract narcs as much as sensitive people don't have the emotional maturity to spot them as quickly as other more aware people can and wisely steer clear. The word 'attract' sounds as if the sensitive person walks into a room and the narc radiates to them, where narcs usually one trick ponies and are going to one person to another, until they catch a bite. But certainly, there are traits in potential people, that trigger a narc to go after them for them, whether it be for money, control, influence or security etc.
That’s not how narcissists work. Unfortunately they do look for people who are more empathetic rather than people who more closed off or colder. A narcissist cannot do anything with someone who is closed off. A closed off person cannot form the connection that a narcissist needs. Essentially what they do is feed off empathy and they use that against empathetic people. At their base, a narcissist what’s nothing to do with someone that has nothing that want. In regard to a relationship they want empathetic people when it comes to friends and stuff. They want someone who can add to their “status” or popularity or someone that makes them look good, if you have none of that they don’t want you, they will use you if you are someone who actual falls for their facade and you think their cool because that validates them and gives them that narcissistic supply.
The Dark Triad "The dark triad consists of three distinct but related personality traits: narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy. Picture it as a triangle, with each point representing one of these traits. They’re considered dark because of their malevolent qualities." 1. Narcissism: The Charming Self-Focus Narcissism, often perceived as excessive self-love, goes beyond mere vanity. Those displaying narcissistic traits are often driven by a deep need for admiration and a sense of superiority. They may exhibit: - Grandiose Self-Image - Attention Seeking - Lack of Empathy - Fragile Self-Esteem 2. Machiavellianism: The Cunning Manipulator Named after Renaissance diplomat and philosopher Niccolò Machiavelli, Machiavellianism is characterized by a strategic and often deceitful approach to relationships and interactions. Key aspects include: - Manipulative Strategies - Cynical Worldview - Emotional Detachment 3. Psychopathy: The Callous Unemotional Psychopathy, perhaps the most alarming trait of the dark triad, includes a range of antisocial behaviors. Characteristics of psychopathy include: - Lack of Remorse or Guilt - Superficial Charm - Impulsiveness and Risk-Taking
This interesting topic causes so much anxiety. A few years ago I read Machiavelli's The Prince. I feel our culture misconstrued the author. He actually did not promote that manner of interacting. He was describing behavior observed among the political leaders of his time. He made one poignant assertion: The man who truly embodies honor, honesty, virtue etc is bound to be defeated by the corrupt ethics of the typical opportunists. I got the impression honor honesty & so on were the qualities he truly admired.
Thanx for this. Very very relevant. There IS sustainable value to social validation. It's when obsessive compulsive validation is prioritized over interpersonal development is when there's a problem. Summary : time. People grow into their ultimate identity because of their unconscious choices mostly. That said, there are those with an alternative nature. Matthew right , tho. Homosexual community is severely underdeveloped emotionally. Such that, I can't count the same sex relationships that look like twins/brothers . Unconscious narcissism posing as genuineness.
Thanks for sharing! Finding the right balance between social validation and personal growth is crucial. Matt's point about emotional development in the LGBTQ+ community is fascinating.👍🌈
On Dr Ramani...i dont like her. I dont think she's a great clinician bc she's very angry about something. Frank Yeomans is way better bc of his neutral approach.
Yeah I can understand where you’re coming from. I sense that a lot of people working in the narcissism space have been deeply hurt by narcissists and some have not healed from this hurt and project it into their work. I prefer a more neutral compassionate approach myself
Though I agree that practicing nonmonogamy is a choice, there is a large part of our community that argues that they were born nonmonogamous. I feel like you discussed attachment and nonmonogamy both in this video, I do not think the relationship between topics were actually discussed very much.
Imo prof sam vaknin knows alot more about the psychology of narcissism than Dr ramani. He is also a narcissist himself so he can bring a personal perspective to it as well. Dr Raman is intermediate at best in my hible opinion.
i have a question if any one has an answer it will be relief for me i always feel anxious and sad when i see attractive guys i don't know why why i get sad ? and why i don't feel it with not attractive guys can anyone help please ? or looks familiar
I feel that too, for me, I guess it's comparing yourself with "attractive" men and wish you could either look like that or you want to be with that person in a loving relationship. It's a vicious cycle to be in, so I would stop following good looking guys on social media and focus on your strengths and your own health and well-being.
yaaaa , i thought it could be more complex than that because i am borderline too , but it is ok i will try to distract me like you but overall thanks for sharing @@ljrockstar69
