If you want a system that rewards wins but also rewards good overall season performance, NASCAR should do what Formula 1 did in 2010: keep the points system, but skew the points to heavily favor the race winners. F1 did that in 2010 to create the current points system: 1st - 25 points 2nd - 18 points 3rd - 15 points 4th - 12 points 5th - 10 points 6th - 8 points 7th - 6 points 8th - 4 points 9th - 2 points 10th - 1 point 11th to last - 0 points
Give me this all day over the elimination playoffs. This gives an emphasis on winning and podiums while also crowning a champion based on season-long performance since every race is worth the same in the championship battle.
@@bcschneider53 And F1 is showing that all these gimmicks that NASCAR is doing is totally not necessary to get young Americans interested. Look at the TV ratings. F1 is exploding right now with 50% year-over-year growth. Hell, the US TV audience for the most recent F1 Grand Prix among 18-49 demo was only 20% less than the audience in the same demo at the most recent NASCAR Cup Series race (about 400K for F1 vs about 500k for NASCAR). And that's despite the fact that the F1 race was on cable on started at 10 am on Sunday.
But in F1, many driver win the title 3 or 6 races before the end, made the end of the season meaningless... But in NASCAR where competition is so much close it could be great !
@@BoilingHotCoffee No no As I said, the F1 point's system isnt flawless, but it's because there's too much gap between teams. In NASCAR it could be cool ! Even if I think the old NASCAR system is the best, because in F1 it's the same if you finish 11th or 20th, which is not fair in NASCAR.
The only people in support of the playoff format are people who watch only nascar and not a single other motorsport. People who are fans of multiple Motorsports see why a points system works and why a playoff system does not work. It really is impossible to justify why nascar is the only motorsport in the world to use a playoff format.
I was going to say that there are people who watch only NASCAR as the motorsport they view who also are sick of the Playoffs, but then I also remembered that most people who are diehard NASCAR fans also watch local short track racing or even participate in it, including myself. I guarantee you that the ones who are sick of the Playoffs will probably tell you that local short track racing is the way to go, or watch dirt racing, or something like that.
"Emphasis on winning" And with that, Brian France proceeds to create a brilliant system where you can win 35 races, finish 2nd in the final race, and still not win the title. "Emphasis on winning" y'all
@@LEGO_NASCAR at least if it happened in the Winston Cup format, that meant the other guy would have to be just as amazing, leading the most laps and finish top 2 in all 35 races. It's not like in the playoff format, where any driver that made it to the Championship 4 has a chance to win the Cup, regardless of how well they did all season long
@@LEGO_NASCAR at least if it happened in the Winston Cup format, that meant the other guy would have to be just as amazing, leading the most laps and finish top 2 in all 35 races. It's not like in the playoff format, where any driver that made it to the Championship 4 has a chance to win the Cup, regardless of how well they did all season long
@@LEGO_NASCARThe only way that could've happened under the Latford Winston Cup format is if you finished second for the first 35 races to the guy who was always winning those races, and you were the one who led the most laps. Then in the last race of the year, you win it with the most laps led. You do understand that's impossible, right? You have a better chance of winning 35 races a year than 35 second place finishes with the most laps led, and especially having the same exact guy who isn't leading the most laps winning. Also, if NASCAR kept a full season points format between 2004 and 2010 where the winner was receiving more points for wins, the scenario you just described would never be possible, because the winner would be receiving 185-190 points while the 2nd place driver who was leading the most laps would only take home 180. So based on that alone, if you finished 2nd place in the first 35 races with the most laps led, and the same other guy was winning the races, you would still be entering the final race 175-350 points behind the 35-race winner depending on if you're talking a full season format between 2004-2006 or a full season format between 2007-2010.
There should always be playoffs and championships in sports. Racing like this is hard to figure out but it can be done. It makes every race mean more. Instead of somebody just winning a race every time. There should be more to the season
@@JRMoney94 no....racing and ball sports are not the same at all. So you think F1, Moto GP, late models, Indy car and rally should all have playoffs? It makes no sense whatsoever. And this killed the popularity of Nascar so clearly this isn't the way to do things.
@@romiarkan450Even in those cases though, it's still entirely possible to win a race by sheer-freaking accident. It doesn't matter what motorsport it is; there's way too many things that can go wrong to have a Playoffs format like this.
I honestly don't know why they don't draw straws for a champion. Used to be a HUGE NASCAR fan, but this is just a joke. If they want to do this elimination crap, eliminate teams. When the top 2 teams are playing in the superbowl, you don't have another 20 teams on the field screwing things up. Either make it a true elimination, or put it back to a seasons long points race. You can't have it both ways.
The original chase format was tolerable. It’s a gimmick but no more of a gimmick than a double points finale is. What Nascar has now is a complete joke. And especially considering the tracks aren’t all the exact same and different teams and drivers are better at different types of tracks
If we went back to a whole season points format, I wouldn't mind seeing double points for specific races. Indycar did that one year where the 3 500 mile races were double points (Indy, Pocono and I think Fontana). That I was cool woth. But just double points in last race is asinine.
@@doomusrlc Indy car still does that for the Indy 500, it's worth double points still. Honestly wouldn't mind seeing the Daytona 500, Coke 600, and Southern 500 worth double points. Or whichever races nascar deems the crown jewels now days
Kyle " shrub" Busch was GIVEN the title in 2015....they changed the rules TWICE to ensure that he made the playoffs.... ONLY because he brought drama to it by his losey attitude towards other drivers and ESPECIALLY THE FANS....he did not deserve to be in the playoffs in the first place.
@@doomusrlc The first rule change was to GIVE Kyle a waiver around the rule of having to race in the majority of races to even qualify for the playoffs....The second change was to change the rule that said that you HAD to be in the TOP 20 ( with a win) in order to qualify for the playoffs ( they changed it to the TOP 30 ) because they knew that Kyle was not going to make it into the TOP 20..... hope that helps you to understand how Kyle was GIVEN the 2015 title.
@@michaelpatton1885 pretty sure it was top 30 and a win in 2014... and waivers for missing races were granted to Hamlin in 2014 and Larson in 2015. I'm not saying Kyle's in 2015 was a "ok now that's just silly" but still...
@@michaelpatton1885 actually yes, top 30 and a win was the rule in 2014. Otherwise AJ Allmendinger would not have been in the playoffs that year. And the "must attempt to start every race" was put in place so people with wins and safely in top 30 in points didn't just skip races willy nilly. Hell I'm sure there are drivers that had wins that would have been perfectly happy to skip Sonoma or Watkins Glen, or even Talladega or Daytona, but the rule keeps them from doing so. In 2014, Hamlin skipped Fontana for some medical thing and was granted a waiver, and he made the final 4. Larson was also granted a medical waiver for missing a race or two in 2015. Now, again, I will say Kyle missing 11 races due to a medical issue and still being eligible was a bit asinine, but he met the other requirements and ended up winning in the end. However if Nascar never bothered with the out of place playoffs we wouldn't have this discussion. Also, I'm not totally sure what 2015 has to do with 2019 that I mentioned in the original comment, but whatever....
I haven't really given a shit who the champion was in nascar for the entirety I've been around it, which is 20 years for that matter. Champions in NASCAR were never as important as they are in other series. In NASCAR, if you won a high profile race, you could retire and nobody would even bat an eye if you didn't race a single yard afterwards. You're still the Daytona champion, you're still the Coke 600 champion, etc. It didn't become unbearable until the 2017 season where they introduced stages. I don't even care if you give points for winning a stage, that's great, reward consistent drivers and everything. What I wish they didn't do was stop the damn race!
You missed the biggest argument against playoffs in racing, IMO: the field specifications change from week to week unlike the fields in ball sports. Sure, there's home field advantages in ball sports, but you aren't playing on a 50 yard field one week, then a 200 yard field the next followed by a 10 yard wide field the week after that.
baseball stadiums have different dimensions...also I think you're argument reinforces the idea why there should be a playoff. A champion needs to be successful at many types of racing, short track, Intermediate, Super Speedway and Road Course, if you had one type of track, its not as challenging, someone would just have to be good at that type of track.
@@tjp72675 When you’re talking about the difference between Martinsville and Talladega and the Charlotte Roval, a left field wall that’s ten feet further back is nothing compared to that. The dimensions might not be universal but there’s not nearly as much that changes from field to field as there is from track to track. Like I said, compare NASCAR to other racing series, not other stick-and-ball sports.
@@bcschneider53 yes, but that is part of the challenge, you have to be good at Martinsville, The Roval, Talladega, and so on. Each track is different, it doesn't take a true champion to just do well at mile and a halves like Texas and Atlanta, the Champion needs to be good at many styles of tracks. They could make a playoff format of 10 races on just the cookie cutter tracks, but it would be boring. No system is perfect, but I would much rather see variety,
@@tjp72675 Different dimensions to the wall but everything else is constant. A champion then should be determined by a mix of those types, not by just one race at a single type of track like we have right now. And to make sure all types are represented, full season points tally makes for the most deserving champion.
To make matters worse, he didn't even win the championship race. Worst average finish for a Cup Series Champion at 14.1 beating Jimmie Johnson's 2016 record of 14.0. And then Steve Phelps had the audacity to lie to the press about the Playoffs saying it's not a gimmick, and that it crowns the best driver of the year.
I believe I said this once already in a video somewhere, but I'll say it again. Why would there be playoffs in an auto racing series in which everybody is competing at the same field at the same time? This isn't drag racing or even drifting.
I've been watching NASCAR like religion since 1986 (because it IS my religion). Between 1993 and 2020 I have attended 57 CUP races, 40 Busch/Xfinity races, and 15 truck races at 22 tracks (not to mention ARCA, IndyCar, IROC, IMSA, etc attended races). You have put my EXACT THOUGHTS on the Championship formats into this video, I could NOT have said it better than you. Def earned a new subscriber with me.
Ive never been more frustrated with NASCAR's leadership.As I write this the bristol dirt race is on and I dont care nothing about it. I have tried to hang on but what happened to harvick last year was too much.
Really good video. I also have to agree that the points system is just the worst way to crown a champ. Also putting a hypothetical example, lets say somebody wins the first race of the season and runs like a backmarker the rest of the regular season, then wins the first race of the first round of the playoffs, and runs like a backmarker the other two events, the same thing for the other rounds before the finally, in that same race that driver wins the race and thanks to this championship format he/she wins the championship.
Brian France turned NASCAR into a total joke, I walked away years ago and have not looked back or missed it one bit. I have no use for NASCAR anymore and I love racing.
Kudos to you backing the Playoff champions. System may suck, but it isn't their sword to fall on, it's Nascar management. One part that needs to be talked about more are the implications of the playoffs with some of the new rule changes, such as the green/white checker finish I understand the intent of it all, you want drivers to race to the end and not have them cruise under the yellow/checker, it's underwhelming to a lot of people. The problem is in the current Playoff climate it is a frantic mess as driver's fight in a tight pack for positions on the restart since there are only two laps to go and with only three races in each round you have very little breathing room to get caught up in a wreck due to a driver getting desperate. This might not be so bad if it were a one time deal each race, but as everyone saw in the Clash last year it just goes until they take the white flag, which resulted in less than a third of the drivers finishing after 4 restarts...now imagine this during an actual points paying race during the Playoffs. In the Winston Cup and even the early Chase format to some extent this works because there are a larger number of races to recover, there's incentive to play it a bit safer. Here though it's a lightning round which means more sloppy racing, more torn up race cars, more costs to teams, and honestly more of that bad stereotype where the general public just thinks it's a clown show of massive wrecks.
As much as I am a chase elliott fan, this playoff system mostly rewards consistency through the final 10 races, not all 36 races. Harvick in 2020 is a perfect example
Firstly, I think you're spot on with every point you made. I'm completely fine with people who enjoy the playoffs, but when the only argument I hear from them for why it's better than the Winston Cup format is, "Well, it's more exciting," then I'm going to remain unconvinced for why this current format should remain. Also, THANK YOU so much for dismantling that dumbass 2007 Patriots excuse people try to use to justify the playoff format because it's not an argument. Reason being, no matter which team wins or loses the Super Bowl, BOTH teams will remain their respective divisions' championship team. The Patriots didn't have their Divisional Championship yanked away just because they lost to the Giants. Not to mention the other points that people have made like NASCAR drivers race the same 38-40 guys each week and they race at tracks of all different shapes and sizes. Lastly, I'm a huge Chase Elliott fan, and don't worry. I'm not disliking your well-made video! Even though I'm happy he has a championship, it doesn't change the fact that I dislike the playoff format. Seriously, great video man! Can't wait to see what else you come up with.
Young man you are so spot-on with the way NASCAR crowns a champion. For anything to change in NASCAR there would have to be a monumental change of the people running the show... I believe one of the biggest things that would help is to allow the teams to set the cars up the way they want them to that means sway bars shocks etc etc then go back to putting real horsepower under the hoods. That might get people watching again and nothing will change until people start watching this experiment on trying to draw in people that's never watched NASCAR was a complete failure. By rewarding innovation like it used to be everybody pretty much has to drive the same car. I might be way off but that's just my 2 cents.
6 of his 7 are still from the 2004-13 format, and quite frankly I’ll take that over the current system in a heartbeat (of course, I’d still prefer the 36-race system over anything else). And I even think comparing Earnhardt and Petty’s 7 can be tough because even those eras were so different, let alone when you throw in the changes Johnson and drivers of his era have dealt with.
@@bcschneider53 All of Jimmy Johnson's titles were under a play off format, he never won a title under the old full season format. Earnhardt likely would not have won 7 titles if Davey Allison and Ernie Irvan had not suffered their respective crashes, Davey the helicopter and Ernie the Michigan crash that almost took his life. Both Davey and Ernie were more than a match for Dale Earnhardt.
I'm a Kyle Busch fan, and I'll be the first to admit his 2015 title was complete bs. He did get screwed out of one in 2018 though, so I think it evens out Great vid btw, I agree with pretty much all of this!
@@bcschneider53 Something that you mentioned, and was heavily implied throughout... Trying to force every moment to be a game 7 makes them unmemorable. Take Blues vs Bruins in the 2019 Stanley cup final. That final will probably go down as an classic for 2 reasons 1) The Blues finally got over the hump and 2) It was the first NHL Stanley cup finals series to go to a game 7 since 2011. It played out naturally, it wasn't forced, and it was a series I'll personally always remember. Chase Elliott winning the final in 2020 and JJ getting a top 5 in a season of struggles in his last race should've been one of the most celebrated moments in NASCAR history, but instead most fans forget the achievement for JJ and call the golden boy of the sport an undeserving champion, it's that bad... I feel like the quote from Incredibles by Syndrome "When everyone is special, no one is." applies to what NASCAR has been trying to do for the last 2 decades.
@@mattr.8470 I love that you mentioned the Blues. You mentioned a game 7 in 2011. Let's talk about another 7 game series from 2011, the St. Louis Cardinals vs the Texas Rangers in the World Series. The Cards won after being one strike away from losing game 6 (Twice!!), in what is considered one of the greatest World Series of all time. (Mostly by us in the STL area) Remember the Series that followed it? The Tigers getting curbstomped by the Giants. How about Super Bowl 49, a very competitive game that was book-ended by two Broncos-related curbstompings? I've been using that Syndrome line for years when discussing NASCAR's playoff system. The sooner NASCAR realizes it, the better it will be for the sport.
Another important distinction between ball sports and motorsports is that each match of ball sports are equally conducted (football will always be played on a 100 yard field). Whereas each race in motorsports is unique, so the championship favors whoever is best at the specific race, not who is the best overall driver. In ball sports you are expected to perform under the same parameters each time, so a 1 game championship makes sense.
Another great point. I don’t think it’s a coincidence Tyler Reddick went back-to-back in 2018-19. Homestead is arguably his best track, and having the title race there gives him that advantage in a one-race playoff.
@@bcschneider53 the only way I could see a Nascar playoff actually determining a fair champion would be if you reduced the number of tracs to 12, raced at each one 3x (Twice in the regular season and then once in the "playoff"/"chase") no win & you're in and just reset the points with the top however many drivers. That wouldn't happen, but at least it would give a fair enough sample size to determine who are the most deserving drivers to be in the playoffs & give them a chance to have an "exciting" finish, but also not bias the playoffs towards any specific drivers who are better at certain races than others.
Even baseball for the most part is played on the same size field. Really, the only difference between each field is how far you have to drive a ball to hit a home run.
The Chase, and now the playoffs, were/are such unnecessary evils. All NASCAR had to do to reduce the likelihood of a 2003 Matt Kenseth style season was rework the Winston points to reward winning races a bit more. Honestly, the response to that season was completely and utterly ridiculous. Only Bill Rexford (1950), Ned Jarrett (1961), and Benny Parsons (1973) won NASCAR Cup Series championships with just a single win to their name before Kenseth did it. Kenseth's title should have been celebrated as an anomaly. Honestly, the only way I can care for a NASCAR championship battle anymore is literally through the creation of my own points system, crunching the numbers once race results are in, and pretending as though the championship battle is between x driver who was lucky enough to advance in the playoffs versus y driver who got knocked out because 30-odd races of great results mean nothing after a blown tire or mechanical failure. If NASCAR can't devise a process whereby the season's best driver actually wins the championship, then I'll do it myself and have that for peace of mind.
Don't forget Kenseth was a threat to win at many tracks and a top 10 car for the season. I was not like he got one lucky win that year and ran like crap the rest of the year.
Basically 2007 or 2008 race points with pre 2004 season structure is all they had to do, maybe a bit more agressive with the winning than that would have been completely optimal. So close yet so far away. It really was a baffling knee jerk reaction. Even more baffling is how the keep exponentially doubling down on the stupidity. Specifically concerning the current "last race wins other 35 didn't matter lol" format I've never seen something in any sport so universally despised that was so important to a league kept for so long. It's going on it's 9th season and I still don't think I've seen a person not employed by nascar corporate say anything good about it in a serious manner
As for ratings, I'm not going to sit there and watch a regular season race once my guy is guaranteed a playoff spot. And once I get used to that, I get in the habit of watching the last 30 minutes of a race, or none at all and just check the results online.
Brian France DOES want to ruin everything though. I watched him buy all the ovals and then shut down all the Indycar ovals. Now he is ruining NASCAR ovals as well. I think he just hates ovals.
Been a racing fan since 2007, seen other season replays prior, to understand how the championship works. Seeing how Kenseth was the final champion under the full season points format (Winston Cup). It make sense for auto racing because you have to the best all season long with your stats, avg finish, and also win. Then looking at Chase debut, it purpose was make more drivers battle each other in this epic points pursuit. Didn't had problems with the chase because consistecy matters in some capacity. As a Jeff Gordon fan, it kinda bugs me that he would of been a champion 3 more times under the full season style. 2011 Chase was maybe the best Chase ever. Stewart and Edwards finish this season with same amount of points. without extra gimmcks than what we have now. But when 2014 Chase rebranded with win n ur in, expanded field, waivers, eliminations, bragged Game 7 moments, and whoever finishes ahead other 3 eligable contenders you are champ. It got out of hand completely. NASCAR sacrificed the fairness for the culture of entertainment first. Watching 2014 season, It hurts seeing Gordon (who maybe had best career resurgence) not in the final round because winless Newman moved Larson out of existense in order to advance to this final 4. Seeing this late 2020, how Harvick tries to wreck Busch intentionally isn't the first he had done this. Look at 2015 fall Talladega finish. This is what NASCAR is promoting here. INTENIONALLY CRASHING OTHER DRIVERS. NASCAR really like putting drivers in unnecessary situations. I'm not a Harvick fan but I respect him the way he races. Under the full season format (even other chase formats like 2011), Harvick would of been a champion and he deserves it. Others complain that drivers clinch early. They were best team, best driver, best of everything. That's racing. There's a reason why every racing league doesn't use playoffs and NASCAR should realize this. The playoffs are actively hurting the sport. It's time to pull off the plug and go back what worked. If you're asking me, go with what Slapshoes suggest. Year in points total (full season style), bonus points, and no stage cautions.
All amazing points. To be honest, I’d even get rid of the stages. Don’t need fifth place scoring more points than the winner. Just award the points at the end of the race.
Here's my points system that I made up. A mix between the old points system and a bit of F1. 1. 200 2. 170 (-30 from 1st) 3. 150 (-20) 4. 135 (-15) 5. 125 (-10) 6. 120 (-5) 7. 115 (-5) 8. 110 (-5) 9. 105 (-5) 10. 100 (-5) It'll continue going down -5 where 29th will be the last position receiving points. 30 and below will receive 0. Any ties will be decided on the better race result position. Lead a lap = 5 points Lead most laps = 10 points No playoffs. Just old school most points wins. Hopefully it's good. Let me know
And no, they don't race different because the format changes, sponsorships demand that drivers and teams perform their best week in and week out, and the competitor in each driver and team demands the best performance they can give; if teams were deliberately racing different and only trying the last 10 races, than JJ wouldn't have scored either the most or 2nd most total points during his 2006-2010 stretch and EVERY season has a had a team that was statistically incredible the ENTIRE season; if they know being good all year is pointless then why are teams still doing it?!
20:17 correction i believe, Edwards was leading the 4 championship drivers, not the race; Larson was running away with the race win. Just clarifying for other viewers that don't know much about that race.
There's more to that block than people realize. Logano was the best on restarts that night. Edwards' car took a bit to get going. He had to do whatever he could to keep Logano behind him or Logano would run away with it.
I'm a elliott fan and i don't like harvick but imma be honest i still think harvick should of been champion this year just because of how good he was this year and winning 25 percent of the season races as well
This was made before Martin Truex Jr was shafted by the playoff format because he was fifth in points without a win, had a 15th new winner, and got left out. That same year, Ryan Blaney was third in points at the regular season finale. Winning is cool, but they're outright shafting guys who have legitimately fantastic seasons.
Actually, that Steve Phelps quote explains it all. His only mistake - he thinks fans want intense drama, but that is what NASCAR wants and that's why this system was created. And yes, the system works well for it was designed - creating drama. But he doesn't realize, that fans want legitimate champion rather than unnecessary drama, and for this cause - awarding legitimate champion - the system is awful
To make matters worse, Steve Phelps lied when he was interviewed in Phoenix this year saying that the Playoffs aren't a gimmick, but they're, "an incredible Playoffs format that awards the best driver." I think it's safe to say after he said that, he's unfit to be in the position he's in at NASCAR. If he actually believes that, then the man can't be trusted, because he's delusional. If he doesn't believe that, (which I think he doesn't) then he can't be trusted, because he's a liar. To be fair, that's not the first lie NASCAR has ever told, and it likely won't be the last, but it's still a lie.
The Chase is actually my Favorite, its better than the Playoffs, it Crowned a Champion who worked their Ass off. I hate Eliminations, One Race to Determine a Champion, and Win and You're in
@@bcschneider53 I'm a Fan of the 2004-2013 Chase Format because it provided a Balance of Wins, Consistency, and Entertainment. Yes the 2004-2013 Format, made Jimmie dominate NASCAR (Jimmie Fan btw, but Biasness Aside), Yes it did not Crown a Season Long Champion, but it did crown a Deserving Champion, a Champion who worked their Ass off, Jimmie's 5 Straight + 1 more, Tony's 2011 Comeback Title, Kurt's 2004 Title, Brad's 2012 Title, etc. Instead of Going back to A Season Long Points Format, we go back and use the 2004-2013 Chase Format, and use a Combination of the 2004-2013 Chase format, and the 2017-Present Points format. Here's my Ideal Points Format: 1st - 60 2nd - 50 3rd - 45 4th - 40 5th - 35 6th - 34 7th - 33 8th - 32 9th - 31 10th - 30 11th - 29 12th - 28 13th - 27 14th - 26 15th - 25 16th - 24 17th - 23 18th - 22 19th - 21 20th - 20 21st - 19 22nd - 18 23rd - 17 24th - 16 25th - 15 26th - 14 27th - 13 28th - 12 29th - 11 30th - 10 31st - 9 32nd - 8 33rd - 7 34th - 6 35th - 5 36th - 4 37th - 3 38th - 2 39th and 40th - 1 For Stage Points (Same as Always for Stages 1 and 2) I'm bringing back Bonus Points as well: • 5 Points for Leading a Lap • 5 Points for Leading the Most Laps • 5 Points for Winning a Race • No Bonus Points for Stage Wins For The Chase, here is my Points format after the last Regular Season Race: • For Each Regular Season Race Win, 3 Bonus Points • Top 10 in The Points after the last Regular Season Race, make it in the Chase, along with 3 Wild Cards Who make it off of Wins, Wild Cards should be within the Top 11-20 in Points. • Points Reset to 1500 • Seeding is Based on where you were after Race 26 (ala 2004-2006 Chase Format) • The Top 10 in Points after the last Regular Season Race, get these Bonus Points entering the Chase 1st - 25 2nd - 20 3rd - 18 4th - 15 5th - 12 6th - 10 7th - 8 8th - 6 9th - 5 10th - 4 • 3 Wild Cards, don't Recieve any Bonus Points after Race 26 Here's an Example Chase Points format: 1st Seed - 1500 + 25 Bonus Points for being the #1 Seed + 4 Regular Season Wins = 1537 2nd Seed - 1500 + 20 Bonus Points for being the #2 Seed + 5 Regular Season Wins = 1535 And So on • No Eliminations • No One Race to Decide A Champion • 26 Regular Season Races, 10 Race Chase with no Eliminations • No Win and You're in
So if NASCAR is set on some elimination style format, here’s a compromise that could just work. The first 24 races award a regular season points champion and they secure a spot in the final 4. The next 3 races, highest points finisher earns spot 3, next 3 spot 3, next 3 spot 4. That is the final 4. (Caveat if someone who’s already in the final 4 is still leading, it goes to the best guy who isn’t already in. The final 3 races are “the championship round.” The final 4 are realistically the only ones scoring points but there is still a full field points format. The final 4 driver who has the most points among final 4 drivers come the checkers flag in the championship round is the series champion. It’s a points system thag rewards winning but also values consistency. You can be the best all year and get in or just have a string of good luck. But it’s not 1 race that determines it all. And the 3 “rounds” that determine the 3 other spots on the championship round aren’t called anything special. It’s just the points lesder after 24 races, the next best guy after 27, best guy after 30, and the best guy after 33. Rounds 34, 35, and 36 determine a champion. And if by chance the points after these 3 races are tied fall back to total season points, and if still tied then most wins, most second places, all the way down. If it is somehow still tied, put both cars on the track. 10 lap dash for the title. Period.
Look at the 2010 and 2012 in F1 Fernando Alonso had the Lead heading into the last Race of the Season, until Sebastian Vettel clawed back and won the World Title. NASCAR is trying to Manufacture Moments with the Bullshit Playoffs.
To me, I wish nascar would use a full points system again, there have been exciting points battles before. In fact the 2021 championship likely would’ve been an exciting points battle. Considering that without stage points, Larson would only beat Hamlin by 14 points. Too bad many drivers get screwed by the playoffs. Also thanks for dismantling the patriots argument, it annoys me to no end seeing that argument used
In retrospect, that 2019 truck season was an absolute landmine for uspetting legitimacy that we either avoided or ignored because it's the truck series. Going into the cutoff race at Michigan, half of the drivers that would made it into the playoff 8 were outside the top 8 in points. 3 of which hadn't run the entire season for points. Can you imagine if the final 4 had all of those drivers? The winless regular season champ fell in the round of 8.
To be honest, I’m not going to blame Phelps as much. He’s only been in charge for a year, so he inherited a ton of problems. I do agree he hasn’t done much to fix them though. At least they’re trying to diversify the schedule, among other things. And, at least Phelps hasn’t been arrested for DWI...
Personally I feel what give the playoffs the bad wrap is the win and your in system. Take that away and it is all about consistency again like the original chase (Which i believe is what NASCAR should do again, but Top 8 drivers, not 10). And I would still do a 10 race system. The Phoenix race this year was the worst Round Playoff race I've ever seen. And no its not cause Chase won, but the race itself wasn't good. And it seemed no one tried this year other then the top 4 unlike how it was at Homestead for years and years.
While that would work better than what we have now, I still don't like that idea, because you're still giving a handicap to drivers who really shouldn't be getting one. One thing people don't seem to understand (especially Playoffs defenders) is that NASCAR is a sport where you can win a race by sheer-freaking accident. While most races are determined fairly, you still have plenty of those rain-shortened races, scoring errors could still happen, the whole field could wreck in front of someone, and just too many things can go wrong in a NASCAR race to have a championship crowning format that always comes down to the last race in a winner-take-all single race.
As a race car driver I absolutely agree with you and it hurts the watch a sport I wanted to compete in when I was younger and I'm so glad I went down to I went to I ended up in sports cars and doing stuff doing some just doing other stuff doing a lot of off-road stuff because Ain't no offense that one but they need a reset like halfway through the season just to eliminate the gap to Lewis Hamilton all them guys actually need that help he's too damn good
They need to go back to either an all season Winston cup points format or revert back to the 2004 chase format with some tweaks. Keep stage racing. Go back to 5 bonus points to the driver who leads most laps, and do away with the win and your in and the eliminations after 3 races. All the way through the last 10 races all drivers have a shot at it still but as a purist and diehard fan and Kevin Harvick fan I want the all season points format back
The thing with the drivers calling NASCAR out on the playoffs is, simply put, actions detrimental to stock car racing. We've seen it before, where drivers even slightly criticize (or don't heap praise on) NASCAR, and they're penalized for "actions detrimental to stock car racing" (see Kyle Busch's comments after winning the first COT race, Denny Hamlin's comments after the 2nd Gen 6 race, etc.).
Ok. The BEST NASCAR Format, To Crown A Champion... Is The Original/OG, 2004-2013 Chase Points Format With The 10 Chase Race Format, And As Well As The 2004-2006 10 Driver Format, Over The Elimination Playoff Format From 2014. That means... No More Points Resets, No More Splitting The 10 Chase Race Format, Into 4 Elimination Rounds, No More Expanding The Field, From 10 Drivers Intro 16 Drivers, And Lastly, No More Win And You're In.
Just now seeing this one. Like I've said, I still would prefer the full season format, but I will take the OG Chase in a heartbeat over the 2014-present format...
@bcschneider53 Yeah... If Brian France, Steve Phelps, Steve O'Donnell, And Lastly Scott Miller, Wouldn't Force NASCAR To Be So Unbelievably Inconsistently Stupid, NASCAR Would've Seriously Damm Listen, And Would've Damm Seriously Went Back, To The Original/OG 2004-2013 10 Chase Race/2004-2006 10 Driver Format.
You talk about Hamilton being the best driver as if F1 drivers are competing against each other on equal ground. He had by far the best car on the grid.
Here’s the thing, Fj. Even if I grant to you that Lewis has “the best car,” that doesn’t change the fact that he and his team were the most dominant over the season. In that case, they should be rewarded with a championship, regardless of whether they win the last race or not.
@@bcschneider53 That's the thing, F1 is fundamentally a team sport. Mercedes would have won 7 straight titles with or without Hamilton. The driver is a much smaller factor than most casual F1 fans realise. It is silly to directly compare drivers results because they are all using vastly different equipment. I doubt for example that Vettel was the best driver on the grid when he won 9 consecutive races in 2013.
That's true, but even if you give Lewis seven retirements in a 21-race season (which is roughly the same percentage of the year Kyle missed), it would take a miracle for him to still be in the championship fight. Then again, Bottas didn't exactly set the world on fire this year...
@@bcschneider53 yep. And looking back at some F1 history, there's evidence of missing some races and still winning the championship. Just the way F1 teams are now, it'll never happen. Nascar is at least a but more even in that aspect (car quality).
@@doomusrlc Yeah, Lauda missed two races in 1976 and almost came back to win it. Of course, the points system was different back then too, 10 points for a win vs 25, while obviously still being zero for not taking part in a race and/or retiring/finishing out of the points.
I want a full season championship, that being said I have the solution to nascar wanting a championship race: 1 race championship To be eligible you must be one of the following: most wins, most laps/miles lead, highest average finish, or most points gained for the entire year. If all 4 are the same guy, they're the only one that makes it and automatically win because they earned it. Otherwise you have a guaranteed exciting finale between 2 drivers or more who all have legitimate arguments as the best driver for the entire season. This also ensures drivers competing for the entirety of the event.
I know this video is old, but I'm wondering how many times people argued "Well in baseball" or "Well in football..." with you. I've gotten a LOT of those arguments. I don't know why those arguments keep popping up because, not only are they not valid because this is motorsports not stick and/or ball, but the comparative arguments don't even hold up in those same sports. Lol.
I guess seven months is old by Internet standards, lol. But I'm hoping this gets some traction again in a couple months when the playoffs start up again. You have no idea how many times people have brought up the 16-0 Patriots, 73-9 Warriors, etc. If you want to defend the system, go ahead, but please use arguments that have some merit to them. Stick and ball team sports are simply incomparable.
@@bcschneider53 the only thing that I hear that I can't argue is the entertainment value that some people get out of it. For me and, I assume you (correct me if I am wrong), and most others, it's manufactured tension. It's not organic. Like the restarts out of phantom cautions. It's all manufactured. But for some others, it's just entertainment. Like... they don't really care how the entertainment is achieved, they just want it, which is why they will go out of their way to defend the system, even though there is no real defense for it outside of how it makes them feel.
@@McBlamRacing Exactly. And the "fun flag" is a major reason why I can't bring myself to get invested in SRX despite the fact that I wanted to love it. It makes no sense to allow people to gain an advantage and then erase it all.
Rankings are difficult! = Ranglisten sind umständlich! The statue miles for every race final ranks could be written in the columns. The combined table could go from column to column to determine the championships position. The play offs could stay. 1 st placed driver: 1 100 miles [Charlotte (600) + Daytona (500)] ...
Just now seeing this video and it is even more alarming after Blaney won which is one of the most un deserving champs in history.. it’s no reason why Byron or Hamlin shouldn’t have been the champ they had the best year overall.. much like harvick in 2020 or countless other examples over the years like Jeff in 2014… the nascar championship literally comes down to one freaking restart a lot of the times which is ridiculous.. Carl edwards quit because of this joke of a system….. nascar will be run into the ground eventually in 30 or so years mark my words.. it’s not even about them trying to be more hip it’s about them digressing the sport…. From the playoffs to the lack of HP to the on track product to the lack of personality and corporate drivers which is a whole other conversation this sport will be nothing..it will be gradual it won’t happen over night but I guarantee if these idiots that run nascar don’t change then I see nascar going bankrupt
I believe the playoffs format could work, but in order to make the playoffs, you have to be consistent all year. I believe that 16 drivers should be the most consistent. Because it would be a lot more exciting to see the best of the best fight it out for the championship, instead of maybe half of the drivers that are actually championship contenders, and the other are scrubs that have lucked in due to 1 win and maybe a terrible year. Rewarding consistently is better. The way it is now, is like rewarding a kid in 1st grade on a half-assed project, but you would end up giving him an A+ just because he did a little effort.
"I was making this video before slap released his so I'm not ripping him off" Even if you straight up said "im stealing what he said for a free upload" id still watch it because nascars playoffs are so shitty that even a 10 hour video on the topic would still fail to mention every downside to it
There are definitely many different angles to take when criticizing the system. I understand why some folks like the chaos and unpredictability, but for people who want to see the best over a whole season crowned champion, it’s an absolutely awful system.
I don’t like the playoffs like AT ALL, and I’m a Kyle Busch fan , but You know what would make this all work , give the regular season champ 20 playoff points and have playoff points matter in the final race . No win the final race and championship, pure points racing with your playoff points
To be frank, I don't consider the 2020 season legitimate at all, thanks to the break and the changes to qualifying that basically gave dominant track position to the same people over again.
Yeah, in fairness to Elliott none of that’s his fault, but there are a lot of factors that give this season an asterisk for NASCAR (and almost every other sports league as well to be honest).
Listen, I hate the playoffs just as much as the next guy. But the rules are what they are and that’s not the drivers’ fault. You can’t take away the legitimacy of their championships. The historical value of them compared to the Winston Cup or 2004-13 Chase, maybe, but everyone races under the same set of rules.
Some of the playoff champions would've also won the title if the season was scored like Winston Cup system. Larson last season, JJ would've have 4 not 7...Gordon would've tied Petty and Earnhardt. One of Stewart's championships would've been legit as well
So, to anyone who believes the chase and the playoffs is good for the sport, I’d ask them to go look at the year-long sponsors of the top 10 teams in 2003, then go have a look at the sponsors of the teams in 2014. Who remains? And of those that do, who’s full-time sponsoring a team? Corporate America doesn’t have to kiss the rear of the France family and have voted with their funds. Might as well just have FOX, NBC, and Cheddars on each car.
Not sure why you're being such an apologist, results aren't fair or legitimate just because a sanctioning body says so; several results in sports may appear that way on paper even though it's common knowledge among fans what the actual results of those events are. Park Si Hun was given the gold medal, but in no way did he beat Roy Jones Jr.
I think a video on the worst chase in nascar history would be cool , my person least favorite is either 2017 or 2015 . 2017 cause about half the grid were guys like 13th in points or lower . And kyles my favorite driver ....but still 2015 was not a fair champion
Nascar is a joke..go back to pre 90's rules and point system. Why do you think they have 2/3's less fans? I don't care if a champion sews up the points title with 2 races to go let the most consistent top driver win the points, the way in should be. I think if a driver finished 2nd in every race of the season he should be able to win the points.
I hate the play offs as much as the next guy but I look at it as you either have to look at it as having a postseason or not I’m fine with either but the sport has too much to do with consistency to have a play off system like it does now
12:57 TBH there isn't many F1 fans that would feel bad for Mercedes at all if that situation happened. And look, the system definitely isn't perfect and has its faults. But in this years case for example Harvick only had 1 top 5 in the last 7 races. It isn't like he finished the season on fire and finished 2nd at Phoenix.
That’s probably just because of their perennial dominance. I’d love to see McLaren and Red Bull take the fight to them, but it should be on merit, not through an artificial points reset and a one-race winner-take-all finale.
But Harvick had a banner season in general. Look at the overall stats. He destroyed everyone. It was similar to Gordon's 1998. He straight deserved it.
@@doomusrlc First off Gordon won 4 more races in 3 less starts in 98 than Harvick did this year. There is no season in modern Nascar that comes close to what Gordon did in 98. Just because you are good for most of the season doesn't mean you should be gifted a championship. The Patriots went 16-0 and lost the Super Bowl. The Warriors went 73-9 and lost a championship. As I said above it isn't like Harvick won 9 races in a row then lost the championship because he finished 2nd. Harvick limped to the finish line after winning the night race. The system is what it is but everyone knew that going into the season. Even after Kansas he had a 21 point gap on Hamlin and 33 on Keselowski. Harvick could've made this discussion moot by performing well in the last 7 races. He didn't do that.
@@tomjurzynski5407 you missed the whole message in the video then... how the hell can you compare racing to football? Or basketball? Or baseball? Or anything like that? Who is to say Patriots would jave had a perfect record had they actually played everyone else too? And want to be nitpicky comparing to 1998? Ok. Gordon won 1995 with a 9.5 avg. Labonte was 1996 with an 8.2 avg. The other Labonte won with a 7.4 in 2000. Gordon with 11 in 2001, Stewart with 12.6 in 2002, Kenseth with 10.2 in 2003. Earnhardt with 8.0 in 1994 and 8.2 in 1993. I could go on, all of these drivers had best avg finish and were the most consistent over the whole season. Harvick had a 7.3 avg in 2020, with next best being 9.3 of Hamlin. Harvick was easily the most consistent this year. And you're telling me Harvick isn't a deserving champion in racing where playoffs make no sense whatsoever? On top of it, in ball and stick sports, when teams are eliminated they play no factor in the playoffs, right? So why doesn't nascar do the same thing? In this format you only need to really perform in 5: 1 in the first 26, one in each elimination round and the final race. How is this NOT a flawed system in people's minds is asinine.
@@doomusrlc Gordon's worst finish in the last 20 races of 98 (after Rusty took him out at Richmond) was 7th. Harvick had 9 finishes equal to or worse than that in the last 20 races this year. It is not even taking a swipe at Harvick's season doesn't compare to Gordon's from 98. There isn't a season that does. Was Harvick the best driver this season? Probably. You can make the argument that Hamlin and Elliott were better for parts of the season. Harvick ran off a two month stretch in the middle of the season that was good as anyone has ever seen. Look the playoffs aren't going anywhere. But there is no playoff format since it came in 2004 where Harvick would be the champion this year. Harvick could've performed like he had all year and left no doubt, similar to what Truex did in 17, and yes he would have gone down as one of the greatest seasons ever. They didn't do that. The playoffs have been around since 2004. As much we bitch about them they aren't going anywhere. But it has been known for 16 years that you need to be at your best in last 10 races. Harvick was simply not good enough at the end of the season.
Imagine if Martin Truex Jr and Kyle Larson finished second in the last race and lost their championships... They flat out dominated those years but they still lost in the final race. Playoffs somewhat work in stick and ball sports but there's a reason no other motorsport has playoffs. I will say that having stage points could be good, IF it didn't require a cation. Just have 2 points in the race where running order for the top ten get awarded points based on position but let them keep going.
Here is my own points system that I devised to combat these BS playoffs that NASCAR continues to keep in place for whatever idiotic reasons. Here we go: Every driver in every NASCAR sanctioned race will receive points towards the NASCAR season long championship race. The winner of every race receives 150 points, with 5-point gaps from 1st place all the way through 30th place. Here is how the full points list breaks down: 1st Place: 150 Points 2nd Place: 145 Points 3rd Place: 140 Points 4th Place: 135 Points 5th Place: 130 Points 6th Place: 125 Points 7th Place: 120 Points 8th Place: 115 Points 9th Place: 110 Points 10th Place: 105 Points 11th Place: 100 Points 12th Place: 95 Points 13th Place: 90 Points 14th Place: 85 Points 15th Place: 80 Points 16th Place: 75 Points 17th Place: 70 Points 18th Place: 65 Points 19th Place: 60 Points 20th Place: 55 Points 21st Place: 50 Points 22nd Place: 45 Points 23rd Place: 40 Points 24th Place: 35 Points 25th Place: 30 Points 26th Place: 25 Points 27th Place: 20 Points 28th Place: 15 Points 29th Place: 10 Points 30th Place: 5 Points A driver will receive 10 bonus points for leading a lap in a NASCAR sanctioned race. An additional 15-point bonus will be awarded for leading the most laps in a NASCAR race, thus making a total of 25 points. A driver who wins every NASCAR race will receive a 50-point bonus. A driver will win a 10-point bonus for winning the pole for every NASCAR race. A driver will receive ZERO points for finishing 31st or worst, or getting a DNF in each NASCAR race. The driver will still receive any bonus points for leading laps and/or winning the pole.
@@tomdalfonzo9959 To be honest, I think that's a bit extreme. It's a third of a 150-point race win going by your system. I also think the laps led points bonuses are probably a bit too high. But again, it's still preferable to stage points and countless resets
sports have playoffs for a reason. The year the Patriots went 16-0 in the regular season, you could make an argument that they were the best team in football that year, so they should be champion. No, they had to get through the playoffs, where they lost to the Giants. Also, how many times have a wild card team won the Super Bowl? Its not always the best team that wins it. The old system was boring, there were many years where someone wrapped up the championship with 2-3 races to go. Imagine the year the pats started 16-0, after 13 or 14 games they wrap the best record in the NFL and were declared Champion, that would make the last 2-3 weeks of the season pretty boring.
I spent an entire segment of the video debunking this argument, so go back and rewatch it for my full thoughts. Racing is not a stick and ball sport where only two teams play at once. Yes, playoffs are necessary in the NFL. But for the sake of crowning a fair championship that rewards the best driver, give me “boring” over a one-race (one race!) finale any day.
I'm a Fan of the 2004-2013 Chase Format because it provided a Balance of Wins, Consistency, and Entertainment. Yes the 2004-2013 Format, made Jimmie dominate NASCAR (Jimmie Fan btw, but Biasness Aside), Yes it did not Crown a Season Long Champion, but it did crown a Deserving Champion, a Champion who worked their Ass off, Jimmie's 5 Straight + 1 more, Tony's 2011 Comeback Title, Kurt's 2004 Title, Brad's 2012 Title, etc. Instead of Going back to A Season Long Points Format, we go back and use the 2004-2013 Chase Format, and use a Combination of the 2004-2013 Chase format, and the 2017-Present Points format. Here's my Ideal Points Format: 1st - 60 2nd - 50 3rd - 45 4th - 40 5th - 35 6th - 34 7th - 33 8th - 32 9th - 31 10th - 30 11th - 29 12th - 28 13th - 27 14th - 26 15th - 25 16th - 24 17th - 23 18th - 22 19th - 21 20th - 20 21st - 19 22nd - 18 23rd - 17 24th - 16 25th - 15 26th - 14 27th - 13 28th - 12 29th - 11 30th - 10 31st - 9 32nd - 8 33rd - 7 34th - 6 35th - 5 36th - 4 37th - 3 38th - 2 39th and 40th - 1 For Stage Points (Same as Always for Stages 1 and 2) I'm bringing back Bonus Points as well: • 5 Points for Leading a Lap • 5 Points for Leading the Most Laps • 5 Points for Winning a Race • No Bonus Points for Stage Wins For The Chase, here is my Points format after the last Regular Season Race: • For Each Regular Season Race Win, 3 Bonus Points • Top 10 in The Points after the last Regular Season Race, make it in the Chase, along with 3 Wild Cards Who make it off of Wins, Wild Cards should be within the Top 11-20 in Points. • Points Reset to 1500 • Seeding is Based on where you were after Race 26 (ala 2004-2006 Chase Format) • The Top 10 in Points after the last Regular Season Race, get these Bonus Points entering the Chase 1st - 25 2nd - 20 3rd - 18 4th - 15 5th - 12 6th - 10 7th - 8 8th - 6 9th - 5 10th - 4 • 3 Wild Cards, don't Recieve any Bonus Points after Race 26 Here's an Example Chase Points format: 1st Seed - 1500 + 25 Bonus Points for being the #1 Seed + 4 Regular Season Wins = 1537 2nd Seed - 1500 + 20 Bonus Points for being the #2 Seed + 5 Regular Season Wins = 1535 And So on • No Eliminations • No One Race to Decide A Champion • 26 Regular Season Races, 10 Race Chase with no Eliminations • No Win and You're in
2:20 it hasn’t tho. The chase was bearable. It made sense still. The “playoff” is obviously just an attempt to force action in the last race and try to conform with all other American sports. To hopefully draw mainstream appeal
Everyone I hear in this sport still talks about the “playoff era” as 2004-present. I agree that the original chase was less bad (I won’t say better) than what we have now but still give me a full-season format all day.
Well I I think the playoffs are a joke it's unfair to the teams and the drivers and the fans but it is what it is you know and I get that NASCAR will never get rid of the playoffs and we'll just have to get used to it and I hate seeing my favorite drivers get screwed over because of something happened to their car or whatever but if NASCAR wants to keep the playoffs I would suggest doing the 2007 chase format instead no win and you're in and keep the stage points as well too.😊
The irony is that, despite the system being so unfair, unbalanced and confusing, Nascar will never let go of it for the simple reason that it's the only motorsport in the world that uses a silly scoring like this. That's right, Nascar is willing to wear the clown's outfit as long as it stays revelant and let people know it's there. The organization has poured so many resourses and marketing enough to not let them ditch the system entirely, and since sponsors demand their revenue stream by contract, they can't back out either. So yeah, Nascar would rather sell out than be a legitimate sport. Shame.
Well if you want they change this shit, just stop watching or go to the track to see the race. The rates will go down and they will realize the shit they have done. But if you guys keep watching of course they will keep this shit.
I acknowledged that a) they’re almost certainly never going to change it and b) ratings are already the lowest they’ve been in years. Did you even watch the full video?
That's because they put favoritism on the top teams instead of the lower teams the points system is completely stupid in fact nascar is stupid in general which is why I watch f1 NBA WNBA pro wrestling football soccer mma and basketball baseball sucks along with nascar
This is what id do.... Id implement a top 25 car point ranking system. 25 cars with most points will be in the playoffs. The playoff has 5 races and each race one car gets eliminated. Its about finishing not crashing. Each wrecked car will be at the end of the field every last race with their position depending on points, those cars would be called 2nd chance cars. Top 20 cars at the end of the playoffs will race at the Championship called Big 20 Championship.
it is all about putting commercials. Stages are there so it could have commercials. Playoffs are the stupidest thing ever chase was very stupid too. It was there because in 2003 I think the champion did not won a race...but he was consistent. A champion is a champion.... What is the point of watching 35 races if it all end up at race 36??? I just watch 1 race each season. It does not matter how many races you win... Anyway..... Nascar is dead since 2003.
