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NEAR MID-AIR COLLISION | Planes Dangerously Close after Takeoff at LAX 

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7 апр 2024

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Комментарии : 594   
@VASAviation
@VASAviation 2 месяца назад
ACA782 clearly said "climbing to 5000'", no further climb was instructed. That left turn to cross AAL345 departure path was serious (both to level at 5000').
@Deionburns114
@Deionburns114 2 месяца назад
Wow
@Issthi
@Issthi 2 месяца назад
Is this the third time youve posted this or am I tripping?
@stefanolorisi2143
@stefanolorisi2143 2 месяца назад
At 1:50 you can hear the departure controller telling AA that AirCanada is cleared to 12000. So it's what he believes to be the case.
@VASAviation
@VASAviation 2 месяца назад
@@Issthi I have not posted this incident before
@Blast6926
@Blast6926 2 месяца назад
It's only a matter of time before it happens.......capitalism hitting ATC?
@JoelWelter
@JoelWelter 2 месяца назад
"Yeah, we have the traffic in sight. The pilot is wearing a white shirt with dark blue shoulder boards. I think the copilot uses Old Spice cologne."
@LawInteractions_911
@LawInteractions_911 2 месяца назад
It’s about time ATC receives a phone number to call
@gavinkemp7920
@gavinkemp7920 2 месяца назад
Pilots can file a complaint. Apparently the phone call is done to clear stuff up and determine if the tower needs to file a complaint. Most of the time they don't.
@LawInteractions_911
@LawInteractions_911 2 месяца назад
@@gavinkemp7920 perhaps you have more experience of getting a number to call than I do. From my knowledge and discussions I’ve had, when you get that phone number your PRIA is never the same.
@ishakemyhead799
@ishakemyhead799 2 месяца назад
Tower, possible controller deviation, I need you to phone this number when you get off your shift 😎
@noscopesallowed8128
@noscopesallowed8128 2 месяца назад
You guys are way too trigger happy with "phone calls" and shit
@travisclementsmith6949
@travisclementsmith6949 2 месяца назад
The phraseology is "possible pilot deviation". It does not mean the pilot was at fault, only that information from the pilot is needed to get a more complete picture. There are several times where the fault was with ATC after the event was reviewed, and the pilot is usually informed of this when they call, or at least, that the pilot did not appear to do anything incorrectly. Sometimes, equipment is at at fault, whether on board or ground based, and getting that information can be vital to providing the safest NAS we can.
@atcjohn75
@atcjohn75 2 месяца назад
Ugh. Embarrassing. Good thing the controller got visual separation since the pilots were already making direct eye contact....
@c200d45e95
@c200d45e95 2 месяца назад
And could see the color of each others eyes when they did. WOW!
@NoneYaBusiness998
@NoneYaBusiness998 2 месяца назад
US controller here, although NOT a Socal controller familiar with their specific departures/procedures so take what I say with a grain of salt. I think there is a factor in why this happened that is very subtle and missed by many. It sounds to me as if the departure controller that initially responds to ACA782 and calls them radar contact is a different controller to the subsequent transmissions from Socal Departure. The voice sounds different. This makes me believe that the normal procedure for these departures is to maintain 5,000 and then the controller on initial contact will assigned a higher altitude traffic permitting. When ACA782 checked on, if it truly was during a controller swap, the controller who was being relieved just acknowledged them instead of climbing them and left that to the relieving controller to do/decide on. The relieving controller, for whatever reason thinking the controller they relieved gave ACA782 12,000 on initial contact, turned the ACA thinking they would be climbing well above AAL345 as they turned losing lateral separation. But being that they weren't climbed yet prior to the turn, you had two aircraft merging with the same assigned altitude. Just a theory from my perspective as a controller who knows how easy mistakes can be made during controller swaps if all parties aren't on the same page.
@MonteKalafiori
@MonteKalafiori 2 месяца назад
for me it also sounds like those are two different persons on departure
@kina5146
@kina5146 2 месяца назад
What an effed up way to start a shift, too!
@Quotenwagnerianer
@Quotenwagnerianer 2 месяца назад
Does the program ATC uses not have a field where you can assign the Altitude you cleared the aircraft to to the icon of the aircraft so that you can see what you gave them?
@pomerau
@pomerau 2 месяца назад
That makes it possibly an everyday scenario which is three times as scary. Kudos to you and your fellow professionals though.
@kata7218
@kata7218 2 месяца назад
This could be the case, but it never should be. As a pilot I have been taught to never assume anything. When in doubt, always confirm. There are no stupid questions in aviation.
@rockkitty100
@rockkitty100 2 месяца назад
Isn't this when one pilot opens his window and asks the other pilot "Pardon me, would you have any Grey Poupon???
@AEMoreira81
@AEMoreira81 2 месяца назад
At this time, their pants are probably full of Grey Poopoo!
@Sailor.V
@Sailor.V 2 месяца назад
There is Poupon everything!
@JoeBlac
@JoeBlac 2 месяца назад
Air Canada would open their window and say, "Sorry!" ;)
@Starbuckin
@Starbuckin 2 месяца назад
@@AEMoreira81 😆
@eternalfizzer
@eternalfizzer 17 дней назад
@@JoeBlac True, but with a subtle overlay of sarcasm that implies oh-so-many comments on the ATC instructions that brought them there.
@akiko009
@akiko009 2 месяца назад
ATC induced event. I'm a bit surprised, but everyone has a bad day every now and then. Good thing the RA was triggered and the pilots were on the ball.
@notsureigaf
@notsureigaf 2 месяца назад
@@cibularas3485 delete your account
@Mark-pp7jy
@Mark-pp7jy 2 месяца назад
​@cibularas3485 Take your meds, and go for a walk.
@JS202
@JS202 2 месяца назад
What is an RA?
@AlaskaErik
@AlaskaErik 2 месяца назад
@@JS202 TCAS Resolution Advisory. Directs the pilots on the action to take to avoid a mid air collision.
@BayouBassmaster_top_6
@BayouBassmaster_top_6 2 месяца назад
@@JS202from what i understand it’s a “device” in the cockpit and when it notices that the plane is in danger of hitting another plane it “triggers” and tell the pilot in plane 1 to increase/decrease speed,altitude, or change flight heading and same for plane 2. It doesn’t take over like autopilot but warns the pilot. For example it might have told air Canada to increase speed and increase altitude immediately while in the American plane it might have told them to decrease speed and decrease altitude immediately. From my understanding that’s how it works. Hope that helps, if you’re interested in learning more just look up on google (RA) resolution advisory and TCAS II systems, very interesting technology in my opinion.
@leuofiridia
@leuofiridia 2 месяца назад
1:08 - ACA782 is told to climb and maintain 5000 1:20 - AAL345 tells departure they're passing 1500 to 5000 1:34 - ACA782 is instructed to turn left heading 110 1:43 - Departure warns AAL345 about the traffic and proceed saying the traffic is at 5000 climbing to 12000 (we didn't have any previous call telling ACA782 to climb to 12000) 2:00 - AAL345 is instructed to turn right heading 250 IMMEDIATELY 2:07 - ACA782 is instructed to climb and maintain 12000 (for the first time)
@UberDude
@UberDude 2 месяца назад
ACA may have had published flight plan to climb to 12,000.
@ljmusg
@ljmusg 2 месяца назад
​@@UberDude previous clearance is to 5000 1:06
@LiamsCarsandblocks
@LiamsCarsandblocks 2 месяца назад
Yea sounds like ATC thought they climbed the air Canada, but never did. Possibly training going on? Seemed like the voice changed. The turn was fine with over 1000ft vertical and would have been no event if he had climbed the air Canada.
@Jmjbs
@Jmjbs 2 месяца назад
@@LiamsCarsandblocks yeah my guess is controller overlap - one going on break and a new one taking position
@BangaloreAviation
@BangaloreAviation 2 месяца назад
Possible controller deviation. Advise when you are ready to copy a phone number 😂🤦🏻‍♂️
@josh3771
@josh3771 2 месяца назад
Professionally handled by the pilots, what a diaster that could have been
@insomnia20422
@insomnia20422 2 месяца назад
its the wild wild west up there, I get that ATCs are under enormous pressure to fit 100 planes in a 1 minute departure window but this stuff is just ridiculous...
@josh3771
@josh3771 2 месяца назад
@@insomnia20422 It's certainly becoming a concerning and frequent problem to put it lightly. I'm just hoping the root cause of these near tragedies can be squashed before our luck runs out
@butteriest1634
@butteriest1634 2 месяца назад
​@@josh3771 it will not happen in time
@653j521
@653j521 2 месяца назад
@@butteriest1634 Because...your life is a black hole of misery and you never got over the fact that Y2K wasn't the end of the world as we know it?
@EffSharp
@EffSharp 2 месяца назад
@@josh3771what’s the root cause?
@tmytyson
@tmytyson 2 месяца назад
Me: "I don't get it, they both seem to be flying their SIDs pretty-" 1:33 "ACA782 turn left 110." "Oh fuck."
@crtkatze2
@crtkatze2 2 месяца назад
i watched a couple times trying to see which plane messed up before checking the comments, but couldnt find any deviations... the atc turning / not climbing air canada explains it! glad no one got hurt.
@guspaz
@guspaz 2 месяца назад
Neither plane messed up, the ATC did. Air Canada was instructed to climb and maintain 5000', but ATC told American that Air Canada was climbing from 5000' to 12000' despite this climb never being requested or instructed. ATC also referred to the Air Canada aircraft simply as "traffic at your 1 o'clock" when talking to American, so it wouldn't be obvious to Air Canada that ATC was referring to them.
@OngoingFreedom
@OngoingFreedom 2 месяца назад
Disagree with both of you. While ATC *did* f* up American was instructed to turn right IMMEDIATELY to 250º. They didn’t. Yeah, it was a bandaid on a major bleed but they failed. Reference the 2:00 mark.
@gustavgans8278
@gustavgans8278 2 месяца назад
@@OngoingFreedomthey were told to turn to 250° when the ATCO realised that shit is about to hit the fan. The duck up happened much earlier. Maybe the CLD entered the wrong cleared altitude into the aircraft strip so the ATCO assumed another cleared altitude (despite the ACA clearly stated 5000 ft). Also you cannot expect the aircraft to follow immediately what you’ve said. There’s a alwaysa delay involved, especially when your instruction is uncommon. I don’t see an unusual delay in their turn. Another thing to consider is: the radar image is always showing a little bit of delay anyways. You cannot establish an aircraft’s actual heading during a turn, by just looking at its speed vector.
@Gantiz
@Gantiz 2 месяца назад
​@@gustavgans8278also, if pilots get an RA (Resolution Alert) they are to ignore ATC and follow the aircraft RA guidance. We don't know what guidance the aircraft gave the pilots.
@TrueSight_333
@TrueSight_333 2 месяца назад
WOAH! Unfortunately, we had almost the exact same thing happen to us coming out of another major airport recently. It's a disturbing trend. We didn't even get a warning on ours, the TCAS went straight into a resolution advisory. ATC was surprised that we got a conflict; our TCAS system is the one that caught it. Scary.
@VASAviation
@VASAviation 2 месяца назад
You can share the information to the email if you'd like us to work on a video
@TrueSight_333
@TrueSight_333 2 месяца назад
@@VASAviation Let me check with our DO and SMS lead. If they're cool with it, I will send you the info.
@jhsevs
@jhsevs 2 месяца назад
@@TrueSight_333it’s public info. If someone prevents you from talking about it then that’s even more of a reason to get it out there.
@TrueSight_333
@TrueSight_333 2 месяца назад
@@jhsevs I'm a corporate pilot. There are matters of privacy involved with the owners. I have to follow chain of command on this; that's how it goes.
@Foxxnioxx
@Foxxnioxx 2 месяца назад
​@@TrueSight_333 Homie's flying the Epstein Express 😂
@dheeraj1697
@dheeraj1697 2 месяца назад
This was so stressful to watch. Kudos to the pilots for keeping their cool.
@The_Devil_Riser
@The_Devil_Riser 2 месяца назад
No ATC controller wants to hear about a RA that should have been avoided with better planning
@bazookamo141
@bazookamo141 2 месяца назад
Aw man. That key change in the AC pilot’s voice, tho. That’s the sound of someone regulating her nervous system through sheer force of will.
@rackets001
@rackets001 2 месяца назад
We have parallel departures here at IAH, and they always turn the left side, left and the right side, right. Turning them both the same way is a recipe for disaster!
@alan_davis
@alan_davis 2 месяца назад
As long as the turns are different radii with different initial altitude isn't really any issue with both turning generally the same way.
@insomnia20422
@insomnia20422 2 месяца назад
@@alan_davis in theory not, but in practice it clearly can become problematic whereas other procedures seem way safer
@edNdr
@edNdr 2 месяца назад
This one wasn't parallel departure. They departed via the same runway.
@kata7218
@kata7218 2 месяца назад
In LAX like many other places, the noise is the problem. And not just any noise, but noise over rich people in Malibu. There is a SID turning right over Malibu from 24R, but there is a climb gradient requirement, which is too much for some heavies. On top of that there is only 1000ft separation to planes following the Ironman arrival overhead, which is causing TAs and RAs if you climb too fast. So they like to use departures turning left and climbing over the sea, not over rich people in Malibu. Another reason might be the terrain, but I like to blame Malibu:)
@notmenotme614
@notmenotme614 2 месяца назад
@@kata7218 I used work at a busy military airbase that had upto 4 Squadrons another large training Sqn often flying around the clock, including circuits, touch and go’s. It certainly was a noisy neighbourhood… Except when the very expensive private school thats less than a mile away wrote to the airbase to say they had a music test that week! Amazingly they’d be a flying embargo / NOTAM arranged. As soon as the private school finished their violin playing, we’d launch the fleet again to the detriment of everyone else’s sleep.
@steelcitytbirds
@steelcitytbirds 2 месяца назад
"...I got a great Polaroid of it..." - AAL345 2nd Officer
@terrybarnett273
@terrybarnett273 2 месяца назад
At what range? About two meters. Well actually it's about 1 1/2 I think.
@davidpearson3304
@davidpearson3304 2 месяца назад
What were you doing at that range?? Communicating
@terrybarnett273
@terrybarnett273 2 месяца назад
@@davidpearson3304 Yes, I know the finger Goose 🤣🤣
@JKH079
@JKH079 2 месяца назад
Diplomatic Relations
@ryabow
@ryabow 2 месяца назад
@@terrybarnett273 oh, i'm sorry, i hate it when it does that
@pixselious
@pixselious 2 месяца назад
Some might say this day wasn’t very lax
@KennethAGrimm
@KennethAGrimm 2 месяца назад
Lax atc at LAX ATC.
@jackielinde7568
@jackielinde7568 2 месяца назад
I don't know. I'm pretty sure some bowels were very reLAXed today.
@LifesWorldwideAdventures
@LifesWorldwideAdventures 2 месяца назад
Great edit, thank you
@VASAviation
@VASAviation 2 месяца назад
Thank you for watching
@Hornet411
@Hornet411 2 месяца назад
Sounds like a nearly huge cockup by ATC there
@billymacktexasdetective5827
@billymacktexasdetective5827 2 месяца назад
What exactly is a nearly huge cockup?
@TimMak25
@TimMak25 2 месяца назад
​@@billymacktexasdetective5827 a near mid air collision(?)
@wll1500
@wll1500 2 месяца назад
​@@billymacktexasdetective5827 nearly a midair collision between two loaded planes
@compulsiverambler1352
@compulsiverambler1352 2 месяца назад
@@billymacktexasdetective5827 A sexual performance complication of excessive penis enlargement surgery
@martinnikolov2363
@martinnikolov2363 2 месяца назад
@@billymacktexasdetective5827 ATC forgot to tell ACA that they are cleared for FL120..You can hear him say to AAL that there is traffic that is climbing through 5000 for 12000 but he never cleared ACA for 12000 before that..
@Robin6512
@Robin6512 2 месяца назад
We had a crossing/arrival problem like that years ago. Arr asked to stay higher for a few miles because we had a slow mover. C130 and the arr was a 747. Agreed on. Controller switch on the arr sector and this guy clears the decent on the 747. On crossing there was 200 feet vertical separation.
@soccerguy2433
@soccerguy2433 2 месяца назад
It's interesting ATC gave American a turn towards Air Canada. That only increased the closure rate between aircraft. That's less time for everyone to act.
@elwant
@elwant 2 месяца назад
At that point Air Canada was ahead of the American in the turn. By ordering a right turn the ATC put the American on a path to cross behind the Air Canada jet as opposed to turning both in the same direction
@philnfla
@philnfla 2 месяца назад
Once again, pushing the boundaries of safely operating the airport and airspace around it. I have been watching this channel for a while and I am shocked at how many potential disasters are avoided by the grace of God, aircrew being aware of their surroundings or a ATC keeping track of their assigned aircraft.
@Haniel93
@Haniel93 2 месяца назад
Thats why there are more than one safety instance. If ATC fails, there is still TCAS and the pilots. If TCAS fails, there is still ATC and the pilots. If one pilot fails, there is still the other pilot who can potentially do something. Accident only happens, if all of these fail together. Last big mid air collision of commercial planes was Überlingen, Germany in 2002. There everything failed (apart from the DHL pilot who had no chance to notice the bashkarian pilot failing). ATC failed, the bashkarian pilot failed (because back then priorities have been differently defined in russia prioritizing ATC over TCAS) and TCAS also failed, because there was a bug which prevented a resolution advisory reversion for one plane if the other fails to commit to the original resolution advisory, which was supposed to prevent the exact situation from becoming fatal. So you see, this was a real tragic crash, but it is very unlike to happen, as A LOT of things have to go wrong.
@general1977
@general1977 2 месяца назад
@@Haniel93 Worth mentioning, that that part of the airspace (Überlingen), albeit German territory, is controlled by Skyguide (Switzerland). In addition to the stated facts, the STCA (Short Term Conflict Alert) was not operational in the control center due to maintainance.
@mrthingy9072
@mrthingy9072 2 месяца назад
Listening to this I was wondering what the heck ATC was doing vectoring those two to cross at their respective altitudes. This incident needs a thorough review.
@ourlifeinwyoming4654
@ourlifeinwyoming4654 2 месяца назад
Didn't we do this same thing about 2 weeks ago - same place?
@VASAviation
@VASAviation 2 месяца назад
These departures out of LAX seem to be conflicting
@CowboyCanadian
@CowboyCanadian 2 месяца назад
@@VASAviationhopefully someone important is all over this
@LimBo3500
@LimBo3500 2 месяца назад
I thought i was having a Deja Vu indeed. Was this a repost from a video posted on Feb 17? (which is now unavailable?)
@The_Devil_Riser
@The_Devil_Riser 2 месяца назад
They should be alternating departures from after departure direction while keeping planes departing , forward planning on the ground would have sorted this issue if they had a straight out or northbound departure between the near miss aircraft’s
@insomnia20422
@insomnia20422 2 месяца назад
@@The_Devil_Riser EXACTLY!!! you cant let the plane that takes the long turn get immediately followed by a plane that goes the same direction but takes the short turn; that is always asking for disaster...
@allenbenjamin8709
@allenbenjamin8709 2 месяца назад
For the life of me I'll never understand why we have complex SID's if ATC just vectors us on the departure. Seems to me that SID's are designed to mitigate incursions. Any TRACON controllers care to share their insight?
@VASAviation
@VASAviation 2 месяца назад
All departures I have flown across Europe are SIDs non vectored. They actually rarely deviate you from SID
@devinwright7828
@devinwright7828 2 месяца назад
@@VASAviation Do you know why American controllers give vectors if a SID is available?
@thomasdalton1508
@thomasdalton1508 2 месяца назад
​@@devinwright7828 Presumably because the SIDs are badly designed and aren't doing what they need them to do.
@aaronmichaelsimpson1
@aaronmichaelsimpson1 2 месяца назад
@@devinwright7828 You are given SIDs incase you lose radio communication with ATC, you have something to fallback on Radar vectors (should) get you going where you want to go faster (or avoid other traffic they are vectoring)
@travisclementsmith6949
@travisclementsmith6949 2 месяца назад
I'm not going to speak about specifics, just generalities. SOCAL is a very complex and dense airspace with rapidly changing topography. The most common reason vectors are used is to gain an operational advantage in traffic flow. Turning an aircraft early can help increase a miles in trail requirement to the Center with the following aircraft. Sometimes airspace and airport proximity necessitate turns SIDs cannot account for as published. VICTOR routes often cross departure paths and turning an aircraft sooner or later can help facilitate an unrestricted climb versus an interim altitude assignment that in turn, may make an MVA further along the path more difficult to reach. These are some of the most common reasons.
@TheRedRaven_
@TheRedRaven_ 2 месяца назад
Oh my, that was nerve wracking
@38911bytefree
@38911bytefree 2 месяца назад
When something goes wrong with the automation, people tend to give it a hard time (me included LOL).Lets admire for a second how many of these scary events (which are getting more and more common) TCAS resolves safing hundreds of lives.
@martinnikolov2363
@martinnikolov2363 2 месяца назад
Looks like ATC forgot to tell Air Canada that they are cleared for FL120, it was only in his head :D
@michaelsimpson8010
@michaelsimpson8010 2 месяца назад
Appears correct. SoCal should've (a) given a direct instruction ("AC 782, climb to xxxxx', resume RNAV"), or (b) phrased the instruction referencing the procedure: ("AC 782, resume climb via SID, proceed direct /fix name/").
@DanielC__
@DanielC__ 2 месяца назад
Great video! What a Charley Foxtrot by ATC
@hatpeach1
@hatpeach1 2 месяца назад
I sometimes think this channel could save some lives. Thanks for getting this out there!
@Dadsplain
@Dadsplain 2 месяца назад
I have chills watching the ATC track.
@oldguysrule5895
@oldguysrule5895 2 месяца назад
isnt this like the third near miss on this departure route in a few months?
@VASAviation
@VASAviation 2 месяца назад
These departures out of LAX seem to be conflicting
@DidiGrooves
@DidiGrooves 2 месяца назад
When did this incident take place?
@dew9103
@dew9103 2 месяца назад
I’m gonna armchair it and say that that someone might want to change the SID to a different initial altitude
@THRASHMETALFUNRIFFS
@THRASHMETALFUNRIFFS 2 месяца назад
Something like this happened to me one time when this old lady had her blinker stuck to turn left but she was in the right lane going 10 under the entire time but of course once you go to pass and cross to make the right heading she suddenly yanked left but I was expecting it cuz I rode a motorcycle on the street for a year.
@jackielinde7568
@jackielinde7568 2 месяца назад
Sounds like Sun City drivers. You don't live in Arizona, do you?
@pepstein
@pepstein 2 месяца назад
Thank God for TCAS!
@Robin6512
@Robin6512 2 месяца назад
Dang that was close. 😮
@lilymulligan8180
@lilymulligan8180 2 месяца назад
A friend of mine flew into LAX the day after this on an American plane.... Real glad I didn't see this video before that!!
@Zorthal
@Zorthal 2 месяца назад
on a number of these videos and of others in the US, I notice a severe lack of co-ordination between neighbouring sectors. As an example, an aircraft declares an emergency, and almost all the time on every frequency change the new controller asks for POB and fuel figures. Doesn't the first ATC pass all this info down the line ?
@MrGigaHurtz
@MrGigaHurtz 2 месяца назад
I like how atc tells them to maintain visual separation at the last second. Never too late to CYA
@Hopeless_and_Forlorn
@Hopeless_and_Forlorn 2 месяца назад
TCAS is old tech but it still works just fine.
@JsausageandbunEaterWithoniOn
@JsausageandbunEaterWithoniOn 2 месяца назад
Has saved many lives
@EdOeuna
@EdOeuna 2 месяца назад
The US system is overwhelmed and it’s only a matter of time before a crash. It’s only the professionalism of ATC and pilots that are preventing the recent near misses. Someone’s luck will soon run out.
@notmenotme614
@notmenotme614 2 месяца назад
3:03 Air Canada: “Just to advise, we had a RA (on the TCAS) there”. ATC: Shhh 🤫 quickly change the subject.
@exploreraa983
@exploreraa983 2 месяца назад
WOW. that was close--- a lot of people almost died. ATC is human, and makes mistakes, but damn. (now I want to hear cockpit audio)
@gerhardwesp3995
@gerhardwesp3995 2 месяца назад
Do modern transponders not transmit the altitude / FL selected on the autopilot?
@Lufthansa747productions
@Lufthansa747productions 2 месяца назад
I could go to sleep to these videos I love listening to atc comms
@Republic3D
@Republic3D 2 месяца назад
Go to LiveATC, thousands of streamed ATC 24/7.
@pjotrtje0NL
@pjotrtje0NL 2 месяца назад
Get a radio scanner😉
@deskpilot1856
@deskpilot1856 2 месяца назад
Maybe LAX shouldn't clear flights on the ORCKA and the DOTSS back to back? Better yet, clear all of the flights on the same SID and get them on course after the turn.
@VASAviation
@VASAviation 2 месяца назад
Just my thought. Couldn't the ORCKA share some initial waypoint with DOTTS so that all fly the same path until the deviate to their final SID fixes?
@insomnia20422
@insomnia20422 2 месяца назад
@@VASAviation I sometimes think that these werent set up with the modern traffic in mind. Idk. A lot of this seems ridiculous. Like there should definitely be a rule that certain patterns cant be flown right one after another to avoid events like these.
@chrisschack9716
@chrisschack9716 2 месяца назад
@@VASAviation Actually, there's the OSHNN departure which DOES share those waypoints, but I believe it interferes with departures from KSNA nearby. They use it at night to avoid overflying LA.
@Jmjbs
@Jmjbs 2 месяца назад
If you clear all flights on the same SID you'd have major congestion and delays. The reason behind different SIDs such as ORCKA and DOTTS is they diverge by 15 degrees at DOCKR, so you can launch planes back to back and there is no issue. This happens all day every day. The fuck up here is they never climbed ACA so they leveled at 5,000. Had they been issued a climb, they would have left 5,000 before merging with AAL and there would be no conflict. That's what happens 99.99% of the time.
@aenguswright7336
@aenguswright7336 2 месяца назад
It's terrifying how close these aircraft came to each other despite the RA and the fact that they could see each other. I can't imagine how this might have gone if they had both been in cloud at the time. AA345 looks like they either dialled up 145 rather than 245 when instructed and then caught their mistake, or the plane happened to be turning to line up for the next waypoint which made the situation worse. I am also curious if AA got a descend instruction, or if TCAS only instructed them to level off since they did not descend.
@zone5photoYT
@zone5photoYT 2 месяца назад
Initial radar contact call for ACA sounds like a different controller than the one that turned them. Could’ve been an issue with the position brief during a controller swap
@VASAviation
@VASAviation 2 месяца назад
Thought the same when I first heard the audio
@el_quba
@el_quba 2 месяца назад
Can someone explain me why this procedure is designed so that aircraft doing almost 270 degree turn is guided on the outside while aircraft turning 180 degrees is on the inside? It seems logical to have the aircraft flying north on the inside so that they don't collide with those flying east.
@insomnia20422
@insomnia20422 2 месяца назад
nothing about this makes any sense they could also just have switched departure order and it would have been 100% fine
@VASAviation
@VASAviation 2 месяца назад
I can't see the sense of it
@chrisschack9716
@chrisschack9716 2 месяца назад
The ORCKA departure is designed so you can fly the aircraft out as far as you need to before turning. They hold 236 degrees, between the north complex departures (usually 251 degrees and turning north) and the south/east departures (220 degrees and turning south) until ATC turns them to fly over the airport and to the NE. The same departure can be flown off the north side, but maintains 251 heading until turned.
@stephenj4937
@stephenj4937 2 месяца назад
From what I can tell, when you actually direct the aircraft to climb the one doing the 270 turn does so over the other one so there is no conflict.
@kevingreene1514
@kevingreene1514 2 месяца назад
My guess is it has to do with the mountains north of LAX, along the ORCKA routing. You can see fixes KEGGS and COOPP with minimum altitudes well above 10k. Takes a while to climb up that high if you're heavy. So, the ORCKA has you fly out farther over the water before making that turn so you can gain altitude. The DOTTS doesn't have terrain that high to get over, so they can turn earlier without issue.
@user-ot4kd6dh1e
@user-ot4kd6dh1e 2 месяца назад
When did this happen??
@ApollonDriver
@ApollonDriver 2 месяца назад
3:07 yeah you don't seem very aware, also was late to repeat the heading for Air Canada. What, was it an exciting part of the TV show you're watching?
@noelsminecraft
@noelsminecraft 2 месяца назад
ACA782 had previously been cleared for Climbvia the SID " except maintain 5000 " ...
@umbreonpokemon8190
@umbreonpokemon8190 2 месяца назад
Seems like a very early turn from the controller to the ACA after departure. Im not sure how they were going to make that 10K foot crossing restriction at KLPPR even if the AAL aircraft wasnt involved. The BCS3 doesnt climb well
@nickanderson631
@nickanderson631 2 месяца назад
Is it normal in the US for atc to request maintain visual separation on an rnav departure? No matter what the situation might be I can't understand that on any IFR departure
@EricBecker1982
@EricBecker1982 2 месяца назад
Is this the same incident from a month or so ago, or a new one? This looks near-identical to an ATC issue at LAX I previously watched.
@Quatermain98526
@Quatermain98526 2 месяца назад
That was on another channel.
@bhollingsworth
@bhollingsworth 2 месяца назад
These absurdly busy airports need better procedures
@generalthunder5796
@generalthunder5796 2 месяца назад
Air Canada please maintain visual separation from that traffic (that is behind you).
@edwardhewer8530
@edwardhewer8530 2 месяца назад
Might have been more handy to restrict AAL to 170kts.
@Notimp0rtant523
@Notimp0rtant523 2 месяца назад
Wow, that was really bad.
@interceptflight
@interceptflight 17 дней назад
@3:01 she stated "we have an REA", what is RA please?
@PikalaxALT
@PikalaxALT 2 месяца назад
I was waiting for ACA to start her left turn early but no this is 100% on the controller.
@VictorWasa
@VictorWasa 2 месяца назад
"Wonder how close can I get these planes to each other"
@MostDear
@MostDear 2 месяца назад
What does “RA” stand for?
@Nebbia_affaraccimiei
@Nebbia_affaraccimiei 2 месяца назад
what the actual F?? you have literally the ENTIRE SKY at your disposal and yet put 2 planes in this kind of situation???
@Publikwerks
@Publikwerks 2 месяца назад
The ATC did say "Turn right heading 250 immediately" And American continued on a left turn
@VASAviation
@VASAviation 2 месяца назад
Negative
@Daishi0861
@Daishi0861 2 месяца назад
@@VASAviation What is happening at 2:02 then? Sure looks like that's what was said.
@Quatermain98526
@Quatermain98526 2 месяца назад
AAL345 did turn left to 250, they were flying the SID, the turn doesn't happen immediately even though the audio sounds like he responded immediately. Also in the cockpit they may have also had an RA that they had to respond to, I know ACA had one, it's likely AAL345 had one too because the TCAS systems are supposed to communicate with each other. The reason for that is so that two aircraft responding to the same RA don't both climb. One should climb and one should descend. But they did turn to the right, just not shown as happening immediately.
@ryanhodin5014
@ryanhodin5014 2 месяца назад
​@@Daishi0861airliners aren't fighter jets. It takes time for a pilot to hear an instruction, input the control, and then the jet takes a long time to roll over and actually start changing its velocity. It's just like with cruise liners or city buses - Large vehicles take a while to stop and don't turn on a dime.
@waholoopesorry74
@waholoopesorry74 18 дней назад
@@ryanhodin5014 It does not take more than 3 seconds to change the autopilot to heading mode and to turn the dial to 250. You don't have experience flying airplanes, do you? There in fact was at least a 10 second delay which is far too long for an 'immediately' instruction
@scottstewart1660
@scottstewart1660 2 месяца назад
When was this? I was on AC782 last week.
@Quatermain98526
@Quatermain98526 2 месяца назад
2 months ago
@DeltaFoxtrotWhiskey3
@DeltaFoxtrotWhiskey3 2 месяца назад
Why did he tell Air Canada to maintain visual separation? They were ahead of the American Airlines flight. It’s always on the guy trailing to maintain visual separation because the guy up front cannot see behind him.
@ScreaminEmu
@ScreaminEmu 2 месяца назад
Time to change the A220's identifier, too... so ATC doesn't have to waste 9 seconds fixating there, deciphering what the hell kind of airplane a "BCS3" is.
@breesco
@breesco 2 месяца назад
Speaking for the passengers: "Whew!"
@jonathanbott87
@jonathanbott87 2 месяца назад
Those in the A seats got quite the view
@bobbiac
@bobbiac 2 месяца назад
What's the bubble for that area? I'm assuming one one nautical mile vertical?
@travisclementsmith6949
@travisclementsmith6949 2 месяца назад
TRACON J Rings are usually a 3NM radius and Center is usually a 5NM radius, but I do not know if the rings in the display were added by ATC or a Review Team or VAS and if they chose a different radius for a different purpose.
@travisclementsmith6949
@travisclementsmith6949 2 месяца назад
Lateral
@bobbiac
@bobbiac 2 месяца назад
Fair. Just trying to sus out if they were really that close or if indicated distance for the RA was lat/long only
@daviddean9116
@daviddean9116 2 месяца назад
As a former SCT controller, What's going on on Departures? Should have climbed ACA to 12000 on contact. Climb AAL to 15000, fly heading 250, vectors for climb. Pretty easy! Maybe there was something else going on.
@user-de2zo1bw4d
@user-de2zo1bw4d 2 месяца назад
“Tower possible ATC deviation, advice when ready to copy?”
@svscared
@svscared 2 месяца назад
What I don't get is that the pilots for both aircraft clearly said they had each other in sight so how did this still almost happen? Neither crew seemed to check with ATC to make sure they weren't going to collide?
@derwolfistda
@derwolfistda 2 месяца назад
The only and safest solution is to have SID's with the same waypoints for the first turns and then waypoint "ABCDE" that leads safely to the filed route.
@markf19
@markf19 2 месяца назад
I don’t understand why you wouldn’t just step climb the AAL
@rewolff2
@rewolff2 2 месяца назад
I remember seeing more or less the same pattern, quite recently. This is clearly a controller problem, not pilots not doing what they were asked to do.
@jofathan
@jofathan 2 месяца назад
This gives RVSM a whole new meaning! Yikes.
@AirTCO
@AirTCO 2 месяца назад
do US controllers have mode-s indications? if Controller saw on his screen ACA not inputed 12000 (what he expected), he would issued proper lvl inctruction.
@BboyDarknessGambler
@BboyDarknessGambler 2 месяца назад
I guess they also weren't listening close enough, or taking in what was being said. The ACA checked in correctly and said they were climbing to 5000
@TheBlitzvideo
@TheBlitzvideo 2 месяца назад
We don't have that as far as I'm aware. Atleast where I am at a center. We recently received a datacom compliance check where when they initially change sectors it confirms their assigned altitude but it's only for datacomm (CPDLC) equipped aircraft. Beyond that we have to rely on their initial check in altitudes.
@AirTCO
@AirTCO 2 месяца назад
@@TheBlitzvideo that is sad(😢 in Ukraine we had Mode-S/AdS-B radars since 2011. Helped in too many situations (system warned when level ATC inputs in ATC system, differs from LVL pilot inputs into FMS)
@kentdouglas202
@kentdouglas202 2 месяца назад
Didn’t an almost identical incident happen there just a few weeks ago?
@gotacallfromvishal
@gotacallfromvishal 2 месяца назад
Surprised there was a near-miss involving Air Canada *and* it was *not* Air Canada's fault. Good job Canada!
@ryabow
@ryabow 2 месяца назад
what is RA? I'm assuming something to do with the TCAS systems. Resolution/Avoidance? Radial Alert?
@ryanhodin5014
@ryanhodin5014 2 месяца назад
TCAS Resolution Advisory. In other words, the plane gave her a "Climb; Climb" (I'm guessing that's the resolution from the altitudes reported in the video)
@ryabow
@ryabow 2 месяца назад
@ryanhodin5014 Thank you kindly!
@leq6992
@leq6992 2 месяца назад
didn't this happen like 2 months ago?
@danielleclare2938
@danielleclare2938 2 месяца назад
This is confusing. My initial thoughts were why was the Airbus not climbing in the turn they were cleared to 12000 or did I miss something. Anyway that put the two in conflict otherwise they would have vertical separation by the time they crossed paths.
@arenlykos2421
@arenlykos2421 2 месяца назад
Short answer is that they weren't cleared to 12000. When they were given their initial routing from clearance before takeoff, they were told to maintain 5000. ATC didn't give them another altitude until the situation was already in progress.
@roeyil
@roeyil 2 месяца назад
Just another example we are still human. ATC had something bad going on... Good communication from the pilots side, stay alerted.
@tripodman322
@tripodman322 2 месяца назад
What is an RA?
@alan_davis
@alan_davis 2 месяца назад
Resolution Advisory. Plane computer tells us what to do to avoid traffic (climb/descend).
@lawrencefried5027
@lawrencefried5027 2 месяца назад
I don't know anything about ATC, but this controller had a real bad day.
@glarynth
@glarynth 2 месяца назад
He is aware, thank you.
@christophersaunders
@christophersaunders Месяц назад
What a way to start your flight.... as a retired ATC this is just appalling, he discontinued lateral separation before having vertical. The sloppiness is appalling, sigh. As soon as I heard the left turn to 110 I was this is going to be ugly. Thankfully they had visual sigh
@nikh9080
@nikh9080 2 месяца назад
I feel like this just happened last month, an almost identical scenario.
@Quatermain98526
@Quatermain98526 2 месяца назад
Same situation different channel
@FFunSize
@FFunSize 2 месяца назад
What does RA mean??
@EndofDescent
@EndofDescent 2 месяца назад
RA = [TCAS] Resolution Advisory. The TCAS detects the threat, calculates and displays an evasive maneuver, which is mandatory to follow. No more "maintain visual seperation" at this point ...
@lharris428
@lharris428 2 месяца назад
In addition, when TCAS issues a Resolution Advisory... training is to follow TCAS until the conflict is resolved. You ignore whatever the fuck the controller is telling you to do. 71 people had to die to make that clear to everyone....
@oliver9089
@oliver9089 2 месяца назад
Oof. What kind of RA would the AC flight have received? Climb climb? This seems like a pretty obvious problem brewing for the controller that sent them out.
@EdOeuna
@EdOeuna 2 месяца назад
It depends on what the two aircraft TCAS computers decide.
@DeltaEntropy
@DeltaEntropy 2 месяца назад
Level probably, or descend if they’re high enough
@EnDSchultz1
@EnDSchultz1 2 месяца назад
The transponders on the two aircraft crosstalk to agree on a resolution. This is why TCAS RA's supersede ATC instructions. There have been collisions because crews have listened to bad ATC instructions instead of their TCAS
@xplayman
@xplayman 2 месяца назад
I skipped watching this recommended video thinking I saw this already. It’s a new incident. What the hell is happening at SoCal?
@TheBry578
@TheBry578 2 месяца назад
I think the question that needs to be asked is , why did CD cap ACA782 at 5k.
@VASAviation
@VASAviation 2 месяца назад
They do that to everyone
@TheBry578
@TheBry578 2 месяца назад
@@VASAviation oh so the SID doesn’t climb to 120? It sounds like DEP was expecting ACA to climb to 120 but didn’t know ( for whatever reason ) CD said climb via except maintain 050.
@riri-tu5oi
@riri-tu5oi 2 месяца назад
its rough when the pilots do what they are suppose to and this happens
@marcellkovacs5452
@marcellkovacs5452 2 месяца назад
3:05 maybe a "yeah, sorry about that" would've been a better response
@fabiorpittol
@fabiorpittol 2 месяца назад
Why the US doesn't adopt more elaborate SIDs and STARs, like most of the world, specially terminals and airports with loads of traffic? Is it something related to the huge GA traffic the US has? Or just unwillingness?
@rayklatt7818
@rayklatt7818 2 месяца назад
Damn, ATC wanted that to go away quickly, eh?
@CyrusOG666
@CyrusOG666 2 месяца назад
while serious, I believe all parties handled it professionally.
@bunglejoy3645
@bunglejoy3645 2 месяца назад
The other thi g was she said, the pilot goi g through 1500 climbin g to 5000 on all videos ive watched atc have come on radio as the plane starts to climb and says climb to blah i didnt hear that hsppen on her recording but she was going up to 5000 so had she not confirmed authorisation to climb , think i hward it on the other plane but ATC had given them virtually identical headings
@pesto12601
@pesto12601 2 месяца назад
I'd love to know what re-trainng and/or discipline the ATC folks get from these "events". Mistakes happen but when you hold the lives of thousands in your hand - the punishment better fit the mistake!
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