New beekeepers watch this video treatment free or not beekeeping basics 

I’m new to bee keeping, and I’m listening 100%. Your doing a great job explaining.

thank you .i am a new bee keeper and i am so glad you are putting this info out here . im reading and aplying . i am glad there are peoplelike you that will tell us what will help .

You're doing a great job David. I am a new beekeeper and have learned so much from you. Thanks for all you do; otherwise, it would be more of a challenge for us to learn.

In my fourth year in small time beekeeping and have yet to treat. Have about 80% overwinter survival rate. My only treatment is screened bottom boards with freeman trays. I've had zero success with solid bottom boards. Love your channel and thanks for sharing all your knowledge. Didn't know if you have tried small percentage of hives w/o treatment and selected those to breed. I plan on raising queens and doing mini nuc's, and hope to use survival stock in different bee yards to keep up diversity.

are wild bees tougher? i would think they would be as they are never treated

In Norway, we don't use pesticides nor any chemicals except for oxalic acid, formic acid and lactic acid. These acids (and essential oils) aren't entirely harmless to bees though. Natural or not, they're still strong chemicals for the little bee. Acids that are meant to kill a small parasite can also weaken the host. But if applied correctly, and only when required, they can be relatively harmless. With an emphasis on "only when required". I've been taught to monitor the varroa level of my hives in order to know when and if to treat. If you apply a treatment too often, you are only going to select for mites that can survive the treatment, all the while weakening your bees. You want it to be the other way around, and it's a balancing act to get it right. Monitoring is the key to limiting treatment to only when necessary. I do like oxalic acid vaporizers, like the one you show in the video. They're much less harmful to bees than dribbling, and seem to be more efficient too (as long as it's applied when there's no brood of course). While it's still treatment, it may just be the least harmful treatment against varroa that we have. I'm not going to get into the whole treatment vs treatment free debate, but I'll mention that we do have some beekeepers who pretty much don't have a varroa problem. It's a complicated picture without any clear answers, but it's worth noting that the beekeepers that I know of who don't have a varroa problem use small cell size (4.9), monitor varroa levels and only treat with acids if necessary. Breeding is another factor. One beekeeper I know of doesn't even monitor anymore, as his bees are now completely resistant to varroa. I do believe that bees can become resistant to varroa, in the sense that they can co-exist with the mite. Observations from some of the mentioned beekeepers indicate that bees have the ability to teach each other to fight off varroa, to keep it in check. There's some serious research being done on this, so hopefully we'll get a clearer picture soon.

What about the varroa resistant/tolerant bees that are now available for purchase? The only way to contend with mites long term is with genetics.

David - what you're saying is 100% correct. I also treat with oxalic acid and I find it to be very effective. For the folks trying to do it the natural way will spend lots of money replacing the bees every year. You are correct it is time-consuming however I look at it as an insurance policy, time well spent. PS: I manufacture evaporators if you are interested.

You've come along way since this video was published! Weird seeing the yard so empty!

I can vouch for the truthfulness of what you've said in this video. I have tried the "treatment free" method, and it has been very hard to keep my hives. I've seen the bees with deformed wings crawling across my yard. It's like you said, "if you don't work your hives, you will lose them." Total truth.

I have been treatment free for 2 years and it works fine for me. I live in in cold climates (-30 C in the winter time)

My bee supplier treated the package of bees before I bought them and before I installed them this spring. So far after 2 month there are no mites as of last week. So yes, I will treat them in the late summer or fall again if needed.

I just bought one of those foggers today. I am hoping to try it out soon. It takes hours to treat my hives with the wand.

I agree. I don't have hives yet but I do have Saltwater tanks with fish and coral I raise and sell frags from. And I started out wanting a natural reef without chemicals assistance. But soon found out that once I started I changed the life of everything in the tanks. So I still use the least amount of chemicals to keep the tanks health but nature wasn't meant to live in a box or that would have been where it was put. I have beautiful healthy corals. And hopefully one day soon I'll have a few bees also. Thanks for your help and time.

Would have been nice to watch treatment with one or both methods mentioned.

Great vid! I was curious what your treatment schedule is? Do you treat more in the winter and less in the summer? and when you treat do you have to do it many times every week to break the mites life cycle? thanks David!

Great video David... Well put regarding treating the bees. Thanks for the plug as well.

can you do a video of how exactly to use the vaporizer. For us new beekeepers

Hey David, new bee keeper here, Love your videos, It,s great that guys like you post these, as new keepers we (i) learn a lot from you guys,------My ? for you, I don't see any mites, can I treat just as a precaution, and can I over treat, I had four hives going into winter, lost one, (thinking from absconding due to unlevel hive body, puddled water inside on bottom board)I,m in north carolina so cold has not been an issue, I did the viroa strips back in the fall, for three weeks, did sugar sift thru hive, didn,t see any mites, I don,t want to take a chance on them being in there, ordered a vaporizer, Can i do this with weather down in the 30/40 degree days,------THANKS AGAIN for posting these videos, you guys really help the new keepers.

I run 35-50 colonies and have been at it for eight years or so. Near treated and never plan on doing so. If you run with stock that manages varroa with aids and are dependent on treatments for survival than that’s what you’ll have, dependent bees. If you increase from your best that aren’t dependent then that’s what you’ll get. It your choice, healthier bees that are more productive and less work or more dependent and more work, the choice is yours. Jeff at NK apiaries on Facebook

Also, does any remaining honey need to be dumped after treating the hive with the oxalic acid? Thanks again for all of your informative videos. They are a true gift.

I started beekeeping with some others and they went treatment free and I treat., My uncle has been beekeeping many years also and said the same thing you do. YOU HAVE TO TREAT> I am now running 50 hives and they are running none., Thank you for all the information and keep up the great videos.

I have 8 hives. Came out of winter with 2 hives lost. One hive was due to poor hive treatments. The other was queen lose.

I treat with oxalyc treatment but it's also a good idea to incorporate IPM systems as well (in my opinion). The oxalyc treatment (I've been told) helps with trachial mites. Those who don't treat only re-infect other people's hives that may have been treated earlier creating a bigger issue. If that person doesn't treat more than once a year and untreated foragers enter his hive and re-infect the hive he may lose his over a winter at no cause if his own.

So many bees. What are they eating? I am starting bees this year and have been working on an organic, bio-diverse food forest in my yard. I'm continually trying to plant things that are great food sources for pollinators. We are what we eat...so are bees. I see so many bee keepers relying on sugar water/ processed bee "food". I firmly believe providing them with what they would eat in a natural environment, strengthens their immunity and creates stronger colonies. Also wondering what you use for a water source for that many bees? I'm considering a small pond for one hive alone. If all goes well, I plan on expanding, but don't want them rushing to the neighbor's pools. Thanks:)

had 55 hives go into winter in Indiana never lost a hive last year ,I dont do any treatments ,all my bees are feral stock and they do excellent , back when i had bought bees from companys they always died , since i got into feral bees seems nothing can stop a hive some are black bees with babey grey bees some are more Gold like italians ,but they all do good without treatments ,so far this winter theyre doing good

thank you David very helpful

That cat is adorable

Bee keeping is a very hard work, what I have seen. Thanks for sharing your video.bi liked your video and SUBSCRIBED to your Channel.

My winter oxalic sublimation got a drop of 300 mites on the first go!

Nice. I am interested too

For what it is worth, I will be a new beekeeper in 3 weeks and I do appreciate these videos ! Thank you, will try wintergreen and will purchase oxalic fogger and acid in advance, knowing I will need to have it. Should I spray my package of bees before I place them in the hive?

Hi David new beekeeper here, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and time for all of us out here. I don't have too many people who I can ask so RU-vid has been my mother. You are a gentle calm man and easy to so see why your bees are gentle towards you, they know too. I would like to ask, as I treat with the vaporiser, but do I need to fog alternately as well?

Treatment free doesn't mean hands off. And it doesn't mean not take care of them. To me treatment free means that I don't want to put poison in my hive. Now I'm only working 2 hives and I've just got them this spring. But I'm going for the all natural type of beekeeping. Now if everything I try does not work I will use chemicals but I would rather not.

Love the "as soon as they put in a box it's unnatural" comment. You are dead on.

sorry but there are people running feral bees that dont treat snd havent for yrs. there are feral bees all over around here. they have adapted.

Hi David. You have a sizeable field there. How Ho you keep the grass trimmed? I don't suppose you have grazing animals there since there is no protection for your bees. I imagine it's quit a job to mow.

Vaporized oxalic acid only kills the mites that are not in the capped brood. Heat treatment is the only near 100% kill.

Some of the critics didn't listen to what Dave said at the beginning. He said that if there was never treatment maybe there would not be a problem. But there was treatment and now there is a problem. There seems to be a lot of different opinions about use of oxylic acid. Take supers off, treat only once a year, treat in winter only, etcetera. It appears there is some overlap cautions from the spray, and drip method into the vaporize method. It would be nice to see a learned account from someone that addresses just vaporizer method. I was told by a supplier who had previously not endorsed using oxylic that it wouldn't hurt to do several treatments if necessary. Would it ever be safe to harvest the honey for human use if you had ever used oxylic vapors? I have read it neutralizes in about 4 days? Good info Dave, wonder if those critics get a flu shot?

Hi David, Enjoy your videos and really appreciate your advice to all of us new beekeepers. When should I start fogging my hives and how often should I fog them?

Hi, thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I have gained so much from you! Knowing mites are the biggest problem for bees, I need to know when is the earliest I can treat with oxalic acid. We are in central NC zone 7b and bought 2 NUC's this spring that were not treated for mites due to the sellers failing health. Did sugar shake & do have high mite counts. My research has indicated I can treat in fall. Why do I have to wait until fall? Fall begins September 22. Should I wait until fall? Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

What do you hook the vaporizer to? A car battery?. Surely I don't have to walk around my hives with a car battery.

It is October in central Washington state. I have treated in the summer - just treated drip method for mites using oxilic acid. The amount of mites I found on the white bottom board is huge. Should I treat again? I want to use the fogger method because it is getting cold here, I'm anxious to get my quilt box on but do not know what to do? This is my first year and I'm trying but it's awfully confusing. I would appreciate any info you can give me. Thank you, Betty

Love This Vid Boy You got it right on this on .Keep it up. Don't Bee a lazy Beekeeper. Lol .

Most people with a natural methodology are OK with survival of the fittest as they think those surviving are the best of breed. Personally for me oxalic sublimation x 3 times during brood breaks or winter/spring when there's no flow makes sense and should keeps mites controlled. The bees alone can't 😔

Are your nucs painted black? I rarely see black hives. I char my hives and apply rosin and wax. I keep them in the shade to deal with the summer heat, so the black finish isn't an issue. Do have issues with sun/black finish?

I'm with you man, Honeybees arent even native to the states so anyone stating they will become resistant to mites that could be true but that would require us to import the bees from Europe, but even those bees die off from mites. One thing you didn't mention is its not the mites that do most the killing but the viruses they transfer from their bites... but again good video, i've been debating on posting one my self about this whole treatment free beekeeping trip. My first 2 years I was treatment free with success, then the third year I lost all 9 hives.

Thanks Dave, really appreciate your videos! I have a question about treatment. I’ve watched a few of these videos using the oxcilic acid, can you use it with the Honey supers on? Also I’ve seen used with and without a mask on. Also there is one called Apiguard that is placed in the hive, but that one cant be when supers are on. Which do you believe works the best, just getting started with a few hives. Thanks for any assistance.

Like your videos. Do you still use these two products to rid the bees of mites?

How do hives survive in the wild? Without anyone keeping the mites, beetles, improper ventilation or what ever

Im looking on getting starting...

I want to get started for just my small household for honey. I'm overwhelmed since it seems most are commercial beekeepers. Do you have a video on how to start and maintain bees on a small scale? Thank you!

Do you by any chance ship Nucs?in these 5 frame nuc boxes I mean (sorry new to bees, I know some people do mail bees but in different screened packages) I saw a different video of yours talking about your friendly stock of bees(but you are not anywhere near me,lol)

Hey David. I'm very much enjoying you RU-vid vids. Please keep them coming! Very helpful! I've been studying beekeeping for about 5 years. I lost my first hive 2 years ago and just started a new colony this year. I have a question. I went into my new hive late this morning. The new hive is 14 days old. It is a captured swarm. They have built out comb on all but two frames and three of those frames are full with capped brood. Another frame is about 1/3 drones and the rest of that frame is brood. The others are being draw out. I noticed on two frames, one frame has a capped queen cell and on one other frame there were the starts of 6 more what looks like queen cells. I removed those but left the capped queen cell. Thing is my existing queen is laying beautifully. There is even an abundant of fresh eggs and larvae uncapped in one frame. The patterns of all the capped cells are right on Q. They are also making lots of brood box honey. My question is, why are my bees making queens, and why so many queen cells are being built. This confuses me. Can you help? Thanks in advance!

Do you have any experience with thymol-based treatments other than the fogging mixture? I'm thinking about trying Apiguard.

Is there a reason they use alcohol instead of distilled water for the mixture? Unless oxalic acid will not dissolve in water, seems it would be even less toxic? I don't know yet, I plan on testing when I get a chance...

Scientific beekeeping is saying the OA with the fogger isn’t working, only the sublimation method. What do you think?

Hi, found my answer in your post to Phillip. Looks like I can treat with oxalic acid anytime. I guess most information said treat in fall because less brood?

Do you grow bees to make nucs to resale or are you growing them then tranfering them to bigger hive?

I have no bees, yet. I do know, by watching your videos that proper beekeeping does consist of proper management. They do need to be taken care of. They need hepl. Have you heard of the Bee Gym? No chemicals. The bees seem to adapt to it well and groom themselves when they arrive at the entrance and the mites fall off and onto the grease board. It looked pretty interesting, not sure how effective it is.

I have mighty mite strips. Are they ok? I am new and not sure because everyone is an expert. They all tell you what to do but don't explain. Thanks for all the info I really appreciate it.

Hi can I use mustard oil for fogging instead mineral oil. And one can I fog during mansoon season

How u mix the mineral oil and alcohol am

if they would have adapted, then why didn't the bees where the mites come from do it, and how did they get here if they adapted in some other country?

When do you start to treat and how often?

I will treat but I will not use chemicals unless I absolutely have to. Before I will try more natural methods.

I want to know your counts before and after the mineral oil. Nobody who uses mineral oil ever give the numbers

Hello from Greece I'm new beekeeper (2 years) and i don't want to use chemicals in my hives. Now i have 30 of them. I'm watching the videos of "Don The Fat Big Man" but my english are not so good. I'm interested to buy a fooger and use it with 100ml alcohol and 25-30 gr oxalic acid as i saw in videos, but i don't understand how long and how many times i have to do the therament, if the external temp have limits and what season of the year i can do this. for example: every 7 days for three weeks and the temp between 10-30 Celsius Here in Greece the new bio therament is tapes with oxalic acid, water and glycerine but we don't know yet if the result is over 90% Thank you for your time and sorry for my English

Did you have any problems with queens or their production of eggs/larvae etc etc when using oxallic acid treatment ?

David good work. This video was the first one of yours that I watched and subscribed after watching the follow up.Your title on this one caught my attention because I am new. Have watched most of Dons the fat bee man. I will be going through your list. As Grand Ma taught us if you can't say something good KEEP QUIET.

New beekeepers take note! This video isn't really correct. Oxalic acid is dangerous and can cause serious respiratory problems in humans if inhaled. It is toxic to brood as well. Acid is acid regardless of the source. Oxalic acid does exist as one of the more effective ways to treat mites, but I'd still caustic. The comment about doing nothing doesn't make sense. We were doing nothing when they first arrived and here are. If that logic were your we wouldn't need to treat today.

The problem with varroa mites is they have to have other hosts than the honey bee and bumble bee but what are they?

Are you still using the fogger for varroa mites?

While oxalic acid is naturally occurring, almost all oxalic acid is manufactured in huge industrial chemical plants. I use it, but let's be real. It may be "naturally occurring" but it is still a chemical by definition.

David, who are you buying your acid from I see florida on the label. tks John

Just wondering what is the mix when you use the propane burner style

I have 8 hives, 5 of them already have supers on them with caped and uncapped honey, Will this harm the Honey. I have been lucky for the last 6 years and have not had mites but something changed this year and now i have them. I have been checking every year and i have only had problems with hive beetles.

David can we add oxalic acid to mineral oil instead of grain alcohol

Barnyardbees I'm in Western North Carolina and I here the climate has an effect on the fogging. What's your thoughts

David, do you still use the fogger?

So I have been watching a lot of your videos, and although there are things I disagree with, for the most part I find your videos entertaining and educational. However this video dismays me. Give treatment free a try, and losing lots of bees is not giving treatment free a real try. It takes three years minimum for nature to select out the bees that should not contribute their genes to the next generations. 1st year, you lose a lot, 2nd year you lose less, 3rd even less and 4th year generally speaking you see no more or less losses than those who treat their bees. You don't keep buying new bees, you use increase methodology to continue increase from the hives that successfully over-winter. Those hives produce drones and queens to breed with. Breed them liberally from your survivors. Eventually you equalize and you stop losing any more bees than usual. I have been keeping bees since 1985. I didn't treat back then because I was just a kid, couldn't afford those expensive medicines, but I wasn't losing colonies left and right. I wasn't treatment free by purpose, just by fact. The ONLY time I had to buy new bees was because I moved across the country and couldn't or didn't want to take the bees with me. You my friend have NOT yet given treatment free a try, at least not as of this video.

Is the cat there for "Mouse" treatments? :)

Thank you

I've respected your videos for a long time. This is sad you say those not treated will die. WRONG. I'm not recommending you now to all my beekeeping friends as I have in the past. I've not lost any more bees than anyone else around here. I read the state reports every year. Those who treated with all those things you mention lost 50 -75% last 2 years. Strange how this happens as queens die and bees die or abscond after treatments. There are alot who chose to live a natural life after dealing with health issues. I use powder sugar dusting and brood breaks. My losses aren't any higher than any others around. I just came in from my bee yard. Not I don't do commercial but do make money with my bees and queens. Who go onto a treatment free hive as they've learned how.

do u make all your boxes out of OSB wood? if so how does it hold up in the weather?

Hey I Have two warre hive do they work I get my bees this friday. and is it ok to put Russian bees and Itialians side by side

Treatment-free beekeeping is situational, just like everything else. You can't be treatment free with 10 hives. You can't be treatment free if you get mitebombed by neighbors. And you can't be treatment free if you get your bees from "Moms&Pops Packages'n'Queens" who have not heard words "mite" and "resistant" used in same sentence. It is all numbers game, really. If you start with 10k hives, you'll be lucky to get 10-20 hives that exhibit consistent low or no mite infestation. If you start with 100 hives - good luck, you'll need it. So, what do you do? You buy VSH/TF queen. Then you make some splits, all is great. By 4th or 5th generation, your queens' will be too diluted by local gene pool to exhibit any VSH/TF traits. Again, what do you do? You spend a small fortune re-queening 100 hives with VSH/TF stock every year. That gets pretty old pretty quick. The answer? You saturate your yard with YOUR drones and begin a comprehensive queen breeding program. That requires knowledge, experience, tools, proper workflow and very accurate records. If you are a beginner - again, good luck, you'll need it. And even if you do succeed in running your own self-sustaining treatment free operation, it will all go down to shit the moment commercial beekeeper stages couple thousand of mitebombs a mile away. So, is treatment free doable? Yes. Is it situational? Yes. Do you need to have ton of hives and know what the hell you are doing? Yes. And no, it is not something that new beekeeper should undertake and have any hopes of success. But don't write it off for everybody else just because in your situation it did not work out very well.

good job David. I agree with you totaly

how does your queen mating nucs work

Glycerin is a way better carrier for the oxalic acid.

Is the OV treatment the same for a NUC vs a ten frame?

I’ve been reading through the comments and I’m perplexed at the level of resistance to treatments. I see a lot of “ well I know this guy who is treatment free and he does fine”, but I don’t see a lot of “I am treatment free and I don’t have problems”. Here’s how I see it: 1. Mites make bees miserable and kill colonies via the spread of viruses etc. 2. OA is not harmful to bees, ESPECIALLY at recommended doses. 3. OA kills mites. Seems self explanatory to me, but then again, I’m just a non PHD-holding, bee keeping red neck. What do I know?

So are you a fan of Pro Vap 110?

Most of the TF people I talk to refuse to do mite counts because they do not want to know the truth. That their hives are not doing good. They are not making stronger bees, they are making stronger mites..

Oxalic acid, thymol, etc. are just as much chemicals as the other treatments typically referred to as 'chemicals'. The concentrations used for treatment are orders of magnitudes higher than can occur in any natural exposure; and therefore it is wrong to conclude that these substances would not be harmful in those concentrations, simply because low concentrations also occur naturally. The only way to draw valid conclusions is to look at actual scientific studies of the impact of specific substances on honey bees and their effectiveness against mites. If you actually do that, and make an informed decision; youll find that even though oxallic acid might be an OK choice, but only if used in brood-less periods, there are far better alternatives among the so called 'chemicals', most notably amitraz, which if used in controlled doses and in a slow-release formula (f.e. apivar), comes out on top both in terms of limited impact on the bees AND effectiveness against the mites. Thymol is a rather bad choice; oil-evaporation i have not read any studies on yet. In addition, even though im not an advocate of treatment-free beekeeping myself (hard to manage the risk), i have seen evidence to believe its not a myth at all. A queen-breeder near me claims he has been going treatment-free for decades and has less than 1% losses a year (an overwintered nuc i bought from him last year also was doing really really well despite a large mite-infestation). A local French honey-producer I spoke with, says he rarely treats for mites, only if there is a notable problem; and claimed that would be the common approach in France. With 100s of hives, if you control your own breeding stock, it might effectively be a better long-term plan to not treat, even though the losses might be high the first few years.

Do you know anyone who has used heat treatment for this? Seen a couple of vids showing as much, electric and solar based

well said

This is not killing the mites in sealed cells , correct?

You talk about 100% kill from oxalic acid but unless I missed it, no where in the video or the discussion do you mention that oxalic acid only kills phoretic mites and does nothing to mites in capped brood. To be effective treatments need to be repeated several weeks.

Does honey bees make honey out of cauliflower that will help destroy mites at least that is a hypothesis I thought of I'm wondering if anyone would know