NEW FROM THE FAA - UPWIND?! - AC 90-66C gives pilots and ATC guidance on departure/traffic patterns 

AC 61-21A (Revised 1980, 72) shows just 5 legs in a traffic pattern: upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, final...no mention of "departure" leg at all; FAA-H-8083-3A (2004, 7-3) describes both an upwind and departure leg. So, sometime between 1980 and 2004 (at least according to two books on my shelf) some pedantic FAA employee decided to needlessly add confusion to a situation that was crystal clear before. The latest AC should have just gotten rid of the "departure" leg...there's enough confusion at uncontrolled airports as it is...now we have to consider whether the person saying departure leg is really leaving the pattern, or is just confused. Great job FAA! Isn't it clearer to just announce your intentions as "left closed traffic" or "straight out departure to the West"...vs upwind/departure? That's my $0.02!

I’m a student and I personally had no confusion on this. My understanding was exactly what the ac says. Departure is departure, leaving the airport. Upwind is the opposite direction of the downwind when staying in the pattern. I have seen it in a diagram as well. I also think many have misunderstood the use of the word parallel, thinking next to. However if I fly directly over the runway I am still parallel to the runway.

You mentioned that of the two descriptions of upwind in the new guidance, the "implication" is that one of them is that the aircraft will be remaining in the pattern. If that's so, the FAA should state that more specifically. I don't think they helped the issue that much. Regarding departure if staying in the pattern, I've been taught and read that when entering the runway (at non-towered airports) to say ..."departing runway XX left closed traffic", "or will be staying in the pattern", so departure doesn't always mean leaving the airport environment. And not to say "taking the active"... Doug Draper's comment below is right on, "this will help me locate you..." To me that's the whole issue with "upwind". Which upwind are you talking about. And if it's on the dead side, in a standard pattern, state left upwind just like you would for left crosswind, left downwind, etc. Just one extra word!

As a past CFI in Canada, I've always referenced the non-active leg (parallel to downwind) of the circuit as the upwind and the leg after lift off as the departure leg.

Thank you for mentioning helicopters. The AIM does state that helicopters are able to use a traffic pattern opposite to the fixed wing pattern, AIM 4-3-3 a(3) (generally used in cases of a high volume of helicopter activity). In some cases the chart supplement will state as much, an example would be KEUL (Caldwell Executive Airport) in Idaho. I’m a dual rated pilot giving helicopter flight instruction and have had a couple instances where there’s been near misses due to fixed wing aircraft flying the upwind in our traffic pattern.

1. Upwind leg. A flight path parallel to the landing runway in the direction of landing Plain, simple. It has been there for years.

I wish the FAA was as clear in their wording as you’re trying to make it sound, Jason. Sadly, I don’t get that clarity from just a few bolded words when the literal definitions still contradict what they’re trying to supposedly clarify. Even IF they defined it to be as simple as you make it out, that system is still inherently confusing and I don’t see people conforming to it. 😞

In the interests of flight safety there should only be one named leg and it should be upwind not departure. A sensible radio call would include "departing from the upwind leg... yada yada"

Jason, you're the best...."just the facts, mam, just the facts", as the old black and white show used to say

Thanks for covering this Jason!

I'm impressed by the power you wield to get an answer so quickly, and in this form. Hell, it took me a year just to get a new registration!

Good point. Easy to forget for the older guys that don’t fly around training airports. At the airlines, you’re always departing. Thanks

Thanks for this help. Also, the side slip video may be very helpful for AirVenture when making a right base to final turn (all one turn on Rnwy 27). A little bit of over travel can be accommodated with your side slip technique.

OK. It makes sense to me. I’m good with it. Thanks FAA - and Jason!

I'm in the "upwind" camp, but I think it's most important to make your intentions clear. If I'm departing from runway 18, and my direction of travel takes me to the north, my practice has always been to join the traffic pattern and depart from the downwind leg. Which I'll announce as: " traffic, Skyhawk 123AB taking runway 18. Entering left traffic, departing the pattern to the north. ." The normal upwind call, then: " traffic, Skyhawk 123AB turning left downwind for runway 18. Departing the pattern to the north. ." If my direction of travel happens to be to the south, it would be: " traffic, Skyhawk 123AB taking runway 18. Departing to the south. ." Followed by: " traffic. Skyhawk 123AB is off the departure end of 18 climbing through , departing the area to the south. ." Whether you say "upwind" or "departure" matters less to me than whether I hear you say: "Departing the area" or "entering left/right traffic." Concisely and clearly stating your intentions beats nitpicky verbiage all day long if you ask me. Feel free to disagree! I'm open to having my mind changed. If you're right, I want to be right too. But I've never had anyone complain about it.

Thank you for the video. Keep up with the good stuff.

glad to hear it being clarified

Thanks for always keeping us informed....I like that shirt too!! :)

Speaking of the FAA, I was wanting to pursue a professional flying career, however, the problem is the new rule on part 135 and part 91 state that operators have the option of forcing retirement of pilots of age 65 just like the part 121 pilots, it’s too bad they decided to do this because now being that I am 59 years old and in great health, it still would make spending a small fortune to pursue a career that is uncertain at best would not be worth it, yet they say there is a pilot shortage right?

Nothing wrong with using 'upwind leg' if staying in the pattern and 'departure leg' if leaving, it alerts everyone in the area to what your intentions are and where they should be looking to spot you

literally, just finished reading the subchapter in Sporty's ground school course (that I've had for at least 4 years and am finally committed to finishing it)

This makes pretty good sense.

I use Departure when leaving like they ask but when staying around the pattern I say just off 28 remaining in right traffic 28 then airport name. Sometimes to make thing exciting I forget the name of the airport or screw up the runway number but most often I forget my N number, I have only owned the plane for 2 years.

You're a beautiful man, Jason. Keep up the great work. The community loves you for it.

Was always wondering the difference between upwind and departure. Never have used departure leg in real ATC but still it's good to know new knowledge. Thanks for great information! Wish I could get flight lesson

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That makes sense. I can’t believe they didn’t make a bigger mess. Thanks for looking into this

Thank you! So essentially, the difference between the terms is the pilot's intentions.

If I am departing on the “departure leg” I would simply call on rollout that I’m “departing straight out runway…” with another call when exiting the vicinity of the pattern “departing the area to the … last call.”

The illustration you show seems to be a right turn pattern. Im very new to this but arent most patterns left turn? My question 2 is I always wondered that upwind or departure isnt that also for the final? Thats where I get confused. Thanks so much.

Unfortunately, this revision to AC90-66 has added ambiguity. If a pilot reports "upwind" they are in one of two places. If a pilot reports "departure leg" they may or may not be leaving the pattern. Prior to this change no one could point to a written FAA document that depicted or discussed anything other than distinct and separate departure and upwind legs at non-towered fields. Now it is ambiguous as they added clarifying words ... Sheesh!

I'm one of those pilots that was adamant about using the "departure" nomenclature because of the FAA docs. I do see your point from the last video, but it was too uncomfortable to be operating outside of FAA guidance (for pilots) by calling upwind. I much prefer the clarification the FAA came out with, I'll be adopting this new distinction in my flying. Also, what a shock that the FAA actually did something in a timely manner AND it made sense?!? I can't help but think maybe RU-vid is the way we get the FAA to fix things 😂

That makes sense to use each term in the proper context to better communicate the pilots intentions, but In my opinion, adding an extra term can complicate things. To me its better if they never included a new term.

Upwind leg would mean the leg before your crosswind turn. Upwind side/dead side would be the opposite side of the downwind. I never heard it called the departure leg where I'm at in Canada. But if someone said departure leg, I would of be able to decipher what they meant.

Thanks for seeing the bigger picture: safety and clarity. Amongst the 50% who are reg thumpers and the 50% who evangelize established best practice, I heard/saw very few on either camp that pointed out the big picture. When people shift from the need to be right to the need to be coordinated, we all are safer.

Quick, do a video about the ambiguity of the right-of-way regulations… those need quite a bit of improvement.

So when did “position and hold become line up and wait?

Fantastic guidance from the FAA. Well done.

What do you consider the “traffic area”? The pattern?

If im on the upwind leg, im either somewhere opposite the downwind leg or on the extended centerline? Not a very helpful location description. I think i would prefer to use takeoff leg for the extended centerline and upwind leg for opposite downwind.

If you're departing you've "already" announced it with your intended direction. If you're staying in the pattern that's "already" been announced too, if you're entering the pattern on the upwind you're entering on the dead side "already". What the heck... are they (FAA) just bored. Never let nerds become bored, terrible things happen lol.

First off a departure is an IFR segment not VFR leg. As for VFR, you are literally going up wind. "XY34 on upwind departing east"; upwind is your LOCATION, departing to the east is your INTENDED ACTION. (caps because bolding is currently malfunctioning)

I don't think it's going to change much of anything. 'Departure' leg is still not in the Pilot/Controller glossary under TRAFFIC PATTERN so I don't think the controller's use of only 'Upwind' will change and pilots will probably continue to follow suit.

When I am flying left closed traffic in the upwind is it still ok to say that I really buttered that landing?😂😂

OK, Now I actually read the referenced AC 90-66C. Appendix A, page A-1 diagram illustrates plainly that indeed the UPWIND leg is parallel to but distinct from the departure leg. A mirror image of downwind. I think you are misinterpreting the document. Expectation bias I believe. Still love ya. Keep it coming. And come to W24 and you'll finally understand.

Where I live it's definitely upwind. CALLSIGN departing upwind 34 climbing 3 thousand feet. That area on the other side from the circuit is the non traffic side. So when joining overhead you would descend on the non traffic side. Radio call for example would be CALLSIGN descending non traffic side 34.

That outcome is what I would have expected logically - that it would be "upwind" in the circuit, and "departure leg" if you're departing the circuit area. IDK, it seems kinda obvious really...

I'm your fan BUT, as I said before, upwind on DEAD side of pattern is misleading. Come visit us in VA. One way in landing to west. One way out taking off to east. Right against KLYH class D to south. If entering pattern from east or north, to avoid flying through Departure path and without making straight in, an UPWIND or Cross Wind entry is preferred. It is the mirror image of downwind. You MUST reference the runway for it to not be totally ambiguous. Come see us some time.

Silly. The AIM is clear and specific regarding this subject. The final approach and departure leg are connected to the runway. All else is in the pattern, initial climb-out, crosswind, upwind, base, and downwind legs.

Yea this is great and all, the FAA still doesn't mandate aircraft fly with radios so that is still a thing...

If I depart on crosswind, that's the departure leg, if I depart downwind that's the departure leg... How can I call upwind departure if I can depart in so many ways/legs? UPWIND.

Interesting they said "is often used" instead of "should be used". It's like they are purposely trying not to be specific still, and acknowledging or even supporting a lack of consistency. Anyway, i should show this to me DPE from my PPL check ride 😂

I still say this is too confusing. Should be one name. Period. Upwind is opposite the downwind. Upwind representing 2 places in the area seems dangerous. Also, look at the ATC definition of upwind. It’s parallel. They mean to refer to the side opposite downwind NOT a path inline with the runway.

Ok … No changes … Got it Did we really need an AC for this?

Here's my theory. It shouldn't be departure leg for the same reason ATC isn't supposed to say, "Line up for takeoff". If the pilot just catches the "takeoff" and does so, bad things can happen. Using the word departure would mean you are departing. Staying in the pattern is absolutely not departing.

Maybe “into position & hold” isn’t the most dangerous part of airport jargon any more 😮

I’m not forming the same conclusions from reading the new AC. It seems the FAA is just saying the the term “upwind” is a separate term than “departure leg”. They still say that the upwind is parallel to the landing runway in the direction of landing. The bold sentence just says that upwind is “often” used to reference the flight path after a takeoff or touch and go. In your video you claim the bold says “it also shall be used for take off and touch and gos”. I may need reading glasses but I’m just not drawing the same conclusion as you from this AC.

Departure leg my heading when leaving pattern. Upwind is upwind. Shouldn’t have to explain that. Seems this AC made things worse.

This issue should have been settled 100 years ago.

It should be the opposite leg.

Please remember to say Right or Left upwind as related to the runway. This will help me locate you, especially at a non-towered, uncontrolled airport.

the first 400' AGL is still upwind to me. Then the turn to departure leg ....

Departure is not a leg. Period. A leg is a portion of a larger whole.

You gotta be kidding me? What was this change based on? Too many accidents, near misses? Or did they just have nothing better to do . I'm going to cover all the bases by now using the term upwind departure leg lol

This doesn't clarify anything. It makes it more confusing. The FAA is using the same terminology for two different things. "N12345 on the upwind". Are they climbing on the extended runway centerline? Are they parallel to the runway at pattern altitude? According to the FAA now, either is correct. The same term for two completely different things. This is dangerous.

I've always (>40 years) called it the departure leg to differentiate from the side of the pattern opposite the downwind. Leave it to the FAA to formally conflate the two. There should not be confusion in the pattern. With their guidance, how do you identify an upwind departure or pattern entry (opposite the downwind)? SMH....

Yet another opinion trying to nail down a precise location for a term that has no precise location. Upwind is parallel to the landing direction. Parallel. There is left upwind, right upwind, and when not specified, it can be close to the extended runway centerline or BE the extended centerline. The AC says just that, and how I've been operating as ATC 30+ years. In the same way pilots specify the location of their downwind, like midfield left downwind or right downwind abeam the numbers, they need to specify where their upwind is located in an uncontrolled pattern. The AC doesn't change past practice. It's only made some people camp out on insisting upwind can't be in the same general area as a departure leg. Upwind can even directly overlap a departure leg. When I have 5 planes in the pattern and I see a 6th plane about to enter 45 to downwind, I'll tell traffic just off the runway end climbing out, "Continue upwind, I'll call your crosswind for traffic entering the 45." It's 100% correct book phraseology.

Jesus this just makes it more confusing. Guys it really was not that difficult and sorry I don't agree with Jason on this one. It *was* clearly worded and very easy to understand. Departure leg: from where the plane rotates to where the plane turns crosswind. That's it, very simple. Upwind: the path parallel the runway in the "dead zone". That's how it is in the pilots operating handbook. If someone says they're on the upwind, you're looking for them parallel to the runway *at pattern altitude*. If someone says they're on the departure leg, you're looking for them from the surface up to crosswind. Those are two *very* different things and that's why they had two different names. Thank you everyone for making this way more confusing than it needed to be.

CFI nerd talk LOL

Ah, so what. As long as you can understand the instructions the ATC could call it the broken leg for all I care. If, as a pilot you want to make a big deal about it and let it bother you, good luck.

Once again common sense plays no part in aviation. Departure means departing the ground. As in, “N123 is departing runway 4 , staying in the pattern.” when was the last time you heard someone say "N123. Departing. Xyz (airport)and not give the runway number? Using “Upwind for that airspace as well as the “dead Side” creates the potential for two aircraft to be in conflict, Exspecially when people are distracted from the radio, such as a student and instructor talking about takeoffs or nonsterile cockpits with friends going for joyrides. A taxiway is a taxiway and a runway is a runway and a ramp is a ramp. Why the FAA would give two different airspaces the same name only shows they want to make life more difficult when trying to follow their rules.

You have sown TONS of confusion in the aviation community with the previous video. Can't go anywhere now without people spreading incorrect information. Departure Leg and Upwind are clearly defined and depicted in AIM 4-3-1, and now clarified again in AC 90-66C. Hopefully this settles it once and for all.

Disagree, Jason. Your interpretation is effectively advocating for a lack of situational awareness by using a single word to describe two different locations in the pattern at a non-controlled airport. I believe you and others are reaching this conclusion because you are applying controlled operations (Tower instructions & controller/pilot glossary) to AC-90-66C Non-towered airport operations; you’re adding context to AC90-66C that isn’t there. Try reading the upwind note “often used to reference the flight path flown after takeoff (or a touch and go)," as a cautionary note and not an instructive note. ETA: AC-90-66C Non-towered Airport Operations explicitly defines “upwind” - using the words ‘separate and distinct’ and an illustration. How can we interpret it any other way?

Due to the new DEI mandates, we will soon refer to the "crosswind leg" as the "trans leg". Also, ensure that you clarify your aircraft's preferred pronouns with ATC on check-in.

Disappointing video on a few fronts... the early parts of your video (and excerpt from video 1) referring to the "I've always done it that way" mentality is something we as aviators, and especially instructors, should strive to avoid. It's ok to bruise our ego, admit a mistake and change behavior. Secondly, your paraphrasing of the AC is incorrect. At 4:27 you state "It clearly states in bold that it also will be used for takeoff right after takeoff and touch and goes, right so if you’re staying in the pattern is the implication there because and you only know that when you go down to what they say about departure and again in bold says departure should only be used when leaving the traffic area" ... The bold section does NOT say "will also be used". The AC states "often used to reference" ... perhaps the AC should've been clearer in stating "often incorrectly used to reference". Notice the earlier phrase of "the upwind leg is separate and distinct from the departure leg" which invalidates your basis of them being the same. Also, in the departure section, you paraphrase as "departure should ONLY be used when leaving the traffic area". This is not stated. Paragraph 6 on page A-1 never states Departure is *only* for departing traffic. Departure LEG is defined by geography, not pilot intentions. Departure CLIMB is defined by pilot intentions. Moreover, the diagram on pages A-1, A-2, A-3 clearly show departure leg and upwind as being different. Notice on A-3 where step #4 DEPARTURE can be followed by step #5 CROSSWIND. In general, I don't understand the persistence of the "upwind" crowd. Why make pilots look in 2 completely different locations for traffic describing themselves as upwind? Why not use distinct language for each area around the airfield? Otherwise, we should just merge departure/crosswind/downwind/base/final/upwind into a general "I'm nearby, try to find me"

Can’t even start a video of yours anymore without suffering through several ads. Pure greed on your part. Especially for yet another video you have already covered.