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The IMPOSSIBLE Turn? - Engine failure on takeoff - Airplane Crashes - 180º Turn Back To The Runway 

The Finer Points
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Let’s talk about the impossible turn - taking off, having an engine failure on the upwind, and attempting to return to the airport with less than 1000 feet above ground level.
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- - - - - - - - - -
📝 Contents
0:00 - Intro
0:40 - Overview
1:37 - The Startle Effect
1:52 - Failure to Keep the Wing Flying
2:04 - Improper Preflight Planning
2:14 - Brief Every Scenario
2:49 - Pitch Forward Aggressively
3:01 - Survey Potential Landing Sites
3:56 - Practice with your CFI
4:50 - What if there’s absolutely nothing in front of you?
6:54 - Practicing the Impossible Turn
7:33 - What have we learned here?
8:25 - Wrap up
- - - - - - - - - -

Опубликовано:

 

8 июн 2024

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Комментарии : 278   
@scottmanley
@scottmanley Год назад
There’s a scientific paper which studied the best roll angle for ‘the impossible turn’, balancing stall speed vs turn rate and the answer they came up with was 45 degrees, and I believe they also demonstrated that for most aircraft having flaps deployed during the initial turn back makes a big difference in reducing turn radius, but you may need to take them back out to reach the runway. For a 45 degree bank with constant descent rate your airspeed needs to be 19% above stall to account for the load factor, but then you need to build in a margin on top of that. And nobody would ever fly that perfectly in a real situation. Exceeding 45 degree bank increases stall risk, being less than 45 means not turning as fast as you could, so a bank of 30-45 degrees is what science says you should aim for.
@PurpleFringe
@PurpleFringe Год назад
Do you have a link to the paper at all?
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
Interesting - Do you have a link to that?
@eds.173
@eds.173 Год назад
Is there enough time for the flaps to deploy before you have to retract them? Maybe if your plane has a Johnson bar. This is not a canyon turn where success is completion of a 180 and no flight into terrain. Also now best glide speed is out the window and you also have to contend with Vfe in your spiral down; too much to deal with in an emergency turnback
@Zelig2u
@Zelig2u Год назад
I saw another video about this where a test was done at 2700' AGL, comparing a 60º turn to a 20º turn. The experiment was done in a Bearhawk Patrol, which has similar characteristics as a Super Cub. By the time the 180º turn had been completed, 300' had been lost in the case of the 20º turn, whereas only 200' was lost with the 60º turn. As that pilot pointed out, load factor plays the more dramatic role in causing stalls, rather than angle of bank. That is, pitch the nose down adequately for a 60º bank and you won't stall it. To me, the big take-away from Jason's video, other than the importance of practicing for this possible emergency just generally, is that it seems like there would be real value in experimenting with the results obtained (how much altitude is lost) using different angles of bank, of course doing so at a sufficient altitude, making sure to have proper traffic awareness, and (critically) making sure to pitch forward appropriate to the degree of bank, so as to avoid stalling. If you sometimes fly a 172, sometimes a Piper Cub, and sometimes a Piper Archer, then it seems like it would be useful to be familiar with the results for each of the planes you fly. Thank you Jason for this great video!
@way2manyhobbies
@way2manyhobbies Год назад
Do you have enough time to whip that paper out, read and execute it after engine failure? I didnt when my engine failed at 100 agl....
@zachheilman784
@zachheilman784 Год назад
Keep in mind the viability of the impossible turn is going to depend a LOT on what aircraft you're in - the Air Safety Institute made a video on this called "Reality Check: The Runway Behind You" where they tested the impossible turn in several different airplanes.
@SoloRenegade
@SoloRenegade Год назад
it also depends heavily on the runway you took off from, as well as the wind.
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
And the weight/density altitude - so important to consider I loved the ASI video thanks for the reminder
@trickedouttech321
@trickedouttech321 Год назад
Agree, the Aircraft is a big part, also wind speed, and direction, a real engine failure is also a little different than an engine at idle. it does not matter if this helps or hurts what matters is it is a different variable in the reality of a real engine out. it makes reality different from practice even a little. 3 small things like wind speed, dead engine, and wind direction can add up to a good or bad outcome. However, I think practicing this is a positive any way you look at it. but should be a last resort.
@AirSafetyInstitute
@AirSafetyInstitute Год назад
Thanks for thinking of us🙂 Great content, Jason!
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
Sorry, it took this comment to remind me that you guys did that awesome video with the different airplanes. I wish I had remembered sooner I would’ve mentioned it in the video. Next time 🙌🏻
@thomasw.richter5212
@thomasw.richter5212 Год назад
And that‘s the reason why take-off briefing and emergency briefing is so important. Even when it seems boring, and you have done it dozens of times at the same runway. I do it loudly even if it seems from outside that I am insane because of talking to myself
@RetiredPilot
@RetiredPilot Год назад
I had a total engine failure at 400 feet agl. Ahead of me was an inaccessible ravine. My choice to die where it would take a long time to be rescued or turn back. The most important thing is fly the aircraft, do the turn immediately while you have flying speed, then pick the best landing place where you can be rescued. I successfully returned to the airport and landed on the runway. As stated in the vid the most important thing is keep flying the aircraft.
@user-lq7hf1ww3k
@user-lq7hf1ww3k 8 месяцев назад
= keep nose down and 45 degree bank. Flaps and cut mixture if high.
@tbeevers
@tbeevers 8 месяцев назад
Well done my friend! Every situation is different...glad it all worked out for you!
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 2 месяца назад
WHAT AIRPLANE?
@japhillips87
@japhillips87 4 месяца назад
I did the "impossible turn" on my BFR with an instructor. We were probably closer to 800' in a piper archer. I immediately pushed the nose down and banked pretty steep. When I got back facing the airport, I had to put in full flaps and slip the plane to get it down. The advice in this video is crucial. You have to pitch down to avoid a stall. And you don't need to do a gentle turn. You need to get the plane around quickly. Finally, get up with a CFI and practice this. You need to make the decision whether or not to turn back as quickly as possible. It should be second nature.
@anmihovil
@anmihovil 8 месяцев назад
I'll quote my favorite pilot - Bob Hoover: "If you're faced with a forced landing, fly the thing as far into the crash as possible."
@jeffhumbert483
@jeffhumbert483 Год назад
I was getting checked out in my Citabria last summer when the CFI told me we were going to do this…. I was always told never to try it so I was surprised …… we did it right at 500ft AGL and we had a little wind helping us but I was amazed I actually slipped the landing to put it in the numbers….. Best takeaway from your video for me was there are lots of variables…. So don’t think it will happen the same way every time
@jeffhumbert483
@jeffhumbert483 Год назад
Also I think somebody mentioned it but my CFI was also a glider guy
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@@jeffhumbert483 Glider Pilots have to do Turnbacks after departure. They are not cowards..
@speedomars3869
@speedomars3869 Год назад
You did nothing. KNOWING you are going to attempt the turn is NOT the same as the impossible turn.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@@speedomars3869 That was not an Impossible Turnback. Some guys like the name, even after they did it. Wrong to call a Possible as Impossible. Dumb..
@speedomars3869
@speedomars3869 Год назад
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 A turnback is not an impossible turn. Under power any turn is possible, even low and slow. If you lose engine power on takeoff, you CANNOT return to the runway. Pretending to test such a scenario is impossible because you have advance knowledge of the attempt and that changes the reaction time and possible setup. The ONLY way an impossible turn can be made is to survive one. Anyone thinking that an impossible turn is a possible emergency maneuver is asking to die.
@joelleerickson2642
@joelleerickson2642 Год назад
I'm so glad you are covering this topic! It wasn't until I started flying gliders that I realized how crazy it is this maneuver is not widely demonstrated, when it is performed on every glider checkout and checkride. I now talk about this with my students and demonstrate it at least once (difficult in my area since all the airports are usually busy) to show how they can live in an engine failure. I refuse to solo my students and just shrug my shoulders and think "I hope they don't have an engine failure on the upwind." Everyone should be prepared and have a minimum return altitude with fluctuates based on terrain, conditions, proficiency, aircraft, and better landing options. At my home airport it's 700 feet, in the middle of the countryside it's often 1000 feet or above.
@johnopalko5223
@johnopalko5223 Год назад
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Every airplane pilot should get a glider rating. There is nothing that will give you a feel for the aircraft and develop your stick and rudder skills as much as flying a glider. Plus, it's a heck of a lot of fun!
@jimmydulin928
@jimmydulin928 Год назад
@@johnopalko5223 Agreed but we must remember that the answer to what the powered airplane wants to do when no power but prop windmilling...go downhill, go downhill now. Maneuvering flight means go there, go now. The choices in the near horizon are few but easy to determine. It is a six second deal.
@speedomars3869
@speedomars3869 Год назад
Gliders are NOTHING like powered flight. To suggest such a thing sports a lack of knowledge in aerodynamics, drag and weight.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@@speedomars3869 All airplanes can glide and turn too. Duhh. Ignorance is not the answer. Besides Turnbacks are needed on GRM and mountain flying too.
@paradoxicalcat7173
@paradoxicalcat7173 6 месяцев назад
Gliders have 40:1 or better glide ratios. Your typical Cessna is 7:1 or worse. Not even comparable. It's all about climb angle vs. glide angle. Power pilots also forget that the day the engine dies for real, they probably didn't get the expected takeoff/climb performance, so they're already screwed. It is just stupid to try and turn back (and I fly gliders and I will not turn back in even those!). It's just freaking dumb.
@dojoswitzer
@dojoswitzer Год назад
Headwind and density altitude make a big difference on the ground distance used climbing to 500 feet altitude.
@eds.173
@eds.173 Год назад
Right. But headwind helps and higher density altitude hurts the ground distance. Which one will effect the glide to reach the runway more? Just asking. Also relative to headwind only off a shorter runway do you fly faster than best glide in the tailwind the turnback. I seem to remember reading about speed to fly in glider references.
@eagle2019
@eagle2019 Год назад
If you really want to increase your chances of surviving an impossible turn, install an AOA indicator. I installed the Bendix King KLR 10 AOA system in my 1978 Cessna Cardinal RG. I then went out and practiced the impossible turn starting at 1,000 feet and lowering subsequent attempts by 100 feet each time. I was able to complete the impossible turn from 1,000 feet down to 400 feet. The lowest safe return was at 400 feet. During each attempt the turn was made at 45 degrees to 60 degrees using the AOA to determine available lift. During each attempt the stall warning horn was blaring even though the AOA was showing available lift. I think an AOA indicator should be mandatory equipment in every aircraft. For me it is one of the best pieces of safety equipment I have in my airplane!!!
@Zombiesnak
@Zombiesnak 10 месяцев назад
I agree with you, but only from what I read about these things. My reality is- yesterday I flew a C172 with an AOA indicator installed, first time I have ever seen one in person. I went up to do a small x-c and shoot a few approaches/landings. I did five approaches to land and one go-around, and not once did the AOA indicator ever enter my conscious sight or register as existing, despite being almost directly in my line of sight. Apparently some training is indicated for using them correctly! :)
@neile8378
@neile8378 8 месяцев назад
AOA indicator or not NEVER attempt the impossible turn in a real engine out.. once the engine quits it belongs to insurance land straight ahead it’s called the impossible turn for a reason don’t pull an AOPA and do it
@CFITOMAHAWK
@CFITOMAHAWK 7 месяцев назад
@@neile8378 What about if you programmed the minimum altitude before take off. and know how to turnback from that and where to head, taxiway, grass or runway etc? Stupid not to know a maneuver that can save you from crashing. Same as we practice power off spirals between clouds when IFR on top. Duhh.
@neile8378
@neile8378 7 месяцев назад
@@CFITOMAHAWK No the best plan of action is to pre-brief spots where you would land if you had an engine out (straight ahead) you can use good old fashioned satellite view on google maps.
@craighill2696
@craighill2696 6 месяцев назад
Excellent! Thank You!!, Do me a favor please. Attempt the same with 10 degrees flaps left in like McSpadden did. I am curious if 1. reguired altitude is higher 2. if the AOA somehow indicates this to you in some way, possilbly by airspeed descent rate something that if you make a McSpadden mistake that you would catch it. Very Ironic you have his near identical airplane. ..... Please get back to me.
@MaverickAussie
@MaverickAussie Год назад
Brilliant content yet again, thank you Jason! Your amazing work helps make us all better and safer pilots.
@daronstevens1936
@daronstevens1936 22 дня назад
You inspire me to become a CFI. Thank you
@Coops777
@Coops777 Год назад
Great video thanks Jason. Such an important topic
@page1.partners
@page1.partners Год назад
Almost seems you'd want to plan trips/refuel airports based on what the terrain looks like beyond the runway....just to give yourself the best chance of survival in the event of loss of power on takeoff.
@Bartonovich52
@Bartonovich52 9 месяцев назад
Almost all terrain is survivable in a light aircraft crash. Even trees, houses, rocks, and mountains. This is.. provided you don’t stall or spin the aircraft.
@AwestrikeFearofGods
@AwestrikeFearofGods 12 дней назад
@@Bartonovich52 That's debatable. Are you hitting these objects head on?
@craighill2696
@craighill2696 6 месяцев назад
Great video for preflight planning!
@vitomokhtar423
@vitomokhtar423 Год назад
Great vid man, I think you did a great job simulating it
@Mxz23
@Mxz23 Год назад
Excellent video and analysis! Thank you! As a CFIG, we practice 180 degree turn rope breaks at 200FT AGL. You cannot be shy with a well executed/coordinated 45 degree bank. Rope breaks at 200FT AGL, stick forward, nose below the horizon, immediate 45 deg. left or right turn into the wind, pull back to tighten the turn as needed, considering speed allocation to prevent an accelerated stall into a spin. I'm in the process of becoming a CFIA, and being proficient in gliders making this type of maneuver, I don't know that I would take my chances like that instructor did in Georgia. Excellent work to him, and speedy recovery, but I think I will choose something ahead below 700FT in an airplane. He almost paid the ultimate price. Someone below posted 45 degrees is the best angle to execute this 180 and yes, it is. There are graphs/plots showing the least amount of altitude loss per given time in the maneuver through a 180 will occur between 40-50 deg. of bank.
@Jmnp08
@Jmnp08 Год назад
Your calculus isn't correct on this bank angle thing. Bank angle is almost irrelevant if you don't have speed and enough lift force to complete the turn. You can absolutely lose more altitude in low bank angles turns if you are too slow. If you execute an abrupt steep turn and pull too hard, you will spin in. Period. Also, anytime you change the wing angle from parallel to the "down force" you will lose percentage of lift performance . This is made worse with higher load factors, excessive pull in the turn etc etc... This is simple, your climb rate must exceed your descent rate. That's all there is too it. If you climb at 500fpm and descend 700fpm, you're toast. Flip those numbers and you might have a chance. Bear in mind the GA aircraft glide like bricks at best.
@Mxz23
@Mxz23 Год назад
@@Jmnp08 as an aerospace engineer with 10 years of airplane and wing design both in research and industry, I can assure you 45 degrees is your best bet. Yes, you are right about speed, but that is a given that you can't perform that maneuver without the necessary speed as load factor increases your stall speed. No need to explain to me the basics of what any competent pilot knows. I'm a flight instructor in airplanes and gliders as well. It is not "my calculus." It was done by other credible scientists and the substantiation behind it is sound. That's the whole point of this discussion - how high is high enough to safely execute a 180 turn in an average aspect ratio single engine airplane. That includes speed. There are plenty of books on aerodynamics both for pilots and for mathematicians backing all of this up. Feel free to go learn about it.
@Jmnp08
@Jmnp08 Год назад
@Mxz23 I'm pretty up to speed on this guy... I'm practically an engineer myself. The question here is really... what is the best way to complete this turn with minimal altitude loss, least amount of load factor (increased drag and energy loss) and complete this in the shortest time interval.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 10 месяцев назад
@@Jmnp08 45 degrees at Vglide minus 5 knots more or less. The minimum sink speed (MSspeed).
@davidwhite8633
@davidwhite8633 2 месяца назад
Yes, it would be interesting to find out what that instructor in the vid did , and why. Wonder if he’d give an interview ?
@jamesarmstrong1532
@jamesarmstrong1532 Год назад
As a new pilot, I welcome these videos. Good info and good job. Thanks
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
You’re welcome! 🙌🏻 thanks for watching
@alessandrostruppa4069
@alessandrostruppa4069 Год назад
Wind makes a huge difference too. Can be at 500ft while being 1000ft from the runway or 500ft and 3000ft away from the runway…..
@SGTSnakeUSMC
@SGTSnakeUSMC Год назад
Good stuff! I started practicing this after the Ford crash. 40 or so bank into wind and focus on best glide speed for your particular weight. Slip instead of flaps if needed.
@yveslegrand9826
@yveslegrand9826 Год назад
I did practice this Impossible turn many times at about 500 ft. I am an ultralight pilot and it's a lot easier as the flight speed is much lower and you can basically turn on the spot...as long as you are fast enough to push the stick. The routine was push, turn again the wind (rarely dead in the track direction). The good thing with ultralight is that losing the engine is just normal and expected all the time once you manage to start it...
@thebackdoorhq
@thebackdoorhq Год назад
This is Gold...God bless you.
@Jjengering
@Jjengering Год назад
Yeah I wouldn't attempt this turn back without around 6-700ft... Even then it needs to be well practiced. Definitely something I need to practice.
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
Agreed. That’s the main point I was trying to convey
@joeheitz1833
@joeheitz1833 Год назад
Really good stuff. Good job.
@lrmorrison999
@lrmorrison999 5 месяцев назад
Years ago a high time military instructor taught me how to exit a high altitude box canyon in a Cessna 172. Conventional training says go into slow flight with flaps and make a gentle 180 turn, which he said would get you killed. His approach was an Immelmann, if you had the power which a 172 does not. The next best option is as follows. If you have 300+ of air under you and have 65+ knots of air speed, immediately pull back to the vertical and before coming to a stop, kick the rudder full left or right and turn the aircraft back down the same angle you started from. As airspeed increases begin to pull back to level. You should be able to accomplish this with only a loss of 200 feet in altitude. We practiced that at 10,000 feet to see if I could meet the 200 ft loss limit. I succeeded !
@sebastienflorence3882
@sebastienflorence3882 Год назад
As usual, and excellent content! Yes my CFI likes to make this kind of exercise with me and repeat "nose down, nose down...". Where I practice (EDAZ), there are lot of forests and engine failure after takeoff should be tricky to manage. But we prepare that as you recommand. I would be happy to meet you this summer when we will make our vacation in California.
@SI-lg2vp
@SI-lg2vp Год назад
Good example and tips for all pilots. This is explains why its important to pair with an experienced CFI for training. I learned that experience matters in a career with 13 million miles of flying passengers.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
Most CFI are Mild Maneuvering CFI's. They want that mostly. Lame.
@martinh88
@martinh88 Год назад
At my flight school we teach landing straight ahead (within 30 degrees left or right of our nose) below 700ft AGL. I think your video does a great demonstration of why.
@speedomars3869
@speedomars3869 Год назад
That is the correct training. Always look for an emergency landing spot STRAIGHT AHEAD.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@@speedomars3869 Into houses ? Stupid. Learn how to turnback well. Ignorance is not the answer.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
Into houses ? Stupid. Learn how to turnback well. Ignorance is not the answer. Duhhh !
@jj6457
@jj6457 9 месяцев назад
No one seems to be able to answer the question, what if the airport is surrounded by forest... No choice but to put it into the trees... How would you plan for that? Stall the aircraft right above the tree line? Try to aim the plane so that the wings get torn off and slow you down? I can never get a correct answer on this.
@CFITOMAHAWK
@CFITOMAHAWK 7 месяцев назад
@@speedomars3869 Right into a guess house with 20 people inside? Or into that SuV with 4 kids inside ? Should i hit the doors or the windows?
@davewilliams639
@davewilliams639 8 месяцев назад
This topic should be revisited..I know of two such incidents in the last couple of weeks...too many!
@asarangan
@asarangan Год назад
Great topic, and a great video. One thing that always bothered me about this discussion is the need to push agressively forward to the extent of feeling zero G. You are not the only one who has stated this. I've heard this repeated by many others. I have done this exercise many times, and never saw the need to be agressive on the controls. Just releasing the controls will make the airplane reach its trimmed speed by itself. I teach students to relax the controls to let the airplane fly itself. In most GA planes, you cannot stall the airplane by releasing the controls, even if the trim is all the way up.
@eds.173
@eds.173 Год назад
I think I agree and would add getting a coordinated turn started soon after releasing or non-aggressively maneuvering the yoke/stick. That will help get you away from a stall and into the turnback more quickly
@neependse
@neependse 7 месяцев назад
This is a good point -- I almost never need to aggressively push down -- and I tested this in 172s and 182s. I am gusssing most small GA airplanes will pitch down when power is reduced (due to low tail airflow), they often SPEED UP! Opposite is true when trimmed for slow flight and you apply full power -- hence the need for the "Elevator Trim Stall" maneuver for instructors. Sadly this is only one of several inaccuracies that are being taught about this.
@scottwaters2651
@scottwaters2651 4 месяца назад
Good one mate.
@Capt_Mahmoud
@Capt_Mahmoud Год назад
great CFI & great lesson 👏
@InvisibleCitizen
@InvisibleCitizen 6 месяцев назад
My instructor initiated several take off stall practice starting at 800, then 700, then 600, then 500 ft AGL. I learned at a crop dusting school. We practice some crazy stuff. Three to five seconds is a long time doing this emergency proceeder. That was 45 years ago and I am fortunate to have never had to use it!
@Skyhighalaskanart
@Skyhighalaskanart Год назад
Great advice! Thank you! I am going to ask my cfi to work with me on this.
@JamesGood
@JamesGood Год назад
Nice video, thanks for the reminders. Good to meet you the other day.
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
You too james! Hope we can fly sometime
@davidparker8752
@davidparker8752 Год назад
All great advice and content. It was nice to see you attempt it yourself. Obviously us students respect your ability and surely experienced pilots as well. My CFI could have done more in this area of training but was a damned good instructor regardless. Pulling that throttle back when not keeping your hand on it is a great idea. I always love your content and teaching style. Keep it up.
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
🙏🏻 🙌🏻wilco
@speedomars3869
@speedomars3869 Год назад
No such thing as a valid test of an impossible turn. Having pre-knowledge of the attempt adds a buffer of time you will not have when it actually happens.
@VooDooDaddy46
@VooDooDaddy46 8 месяцев назад
Currently in instrument, just got done with PPL; I'm going to go through this with my CFII. Thank you.
@ScootBraun
@ScootBraun Год назад
During my PPL Checkride, I was asked to do an impossible turn at 500agl. The examiner asked me to climb at Vx in a 172, and it actually made the turn quite handily, to the extent that I had to execute a forward slip or I would've touched down too far down the runway.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
Dont climb a Vx. Bad for the engine and pushing nose down is harder too.
@davidwhite8633
@davidwhite8633 Год назад
⁠@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Which Vx are you referring to ? The one in the POH/AFM , which is full flap or Vx [clean] which is often not found in the handbook for many aircraft ?
@ranjrog
@ranjrog Год назад
Another point to consider is a partial loss of power on takeoff. Had this happen not too long ago (with my CFI) and we easily made it back to the runway since we could still make some power. I now brief what direction I will turn (into whatever crosswind there is) so that my chance of making it back to the runway increases with a partial loss of power!
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
Right. Most engine fails are partial power. I practiced on Cherokees from 400 agl, troubleshoot while doing a Teardrop Turnback if cant climb at all.
@MichaelCarrPilot
@MichaelCarrPilot Год назад
It’s important to also note the importance of staying coordinated, especially when so close to the ground. You mentioned spins at 8:15 at least.
@speedomars3869
@speedomars3869 Год назад
You will do none of it in the actual emergency. your head will explode and if you did not plan to land straight ahead you will spin and crash faster than you can reach for the stick.
@paradoxicalcat7173
@paradoxicalcat7173 6 месяцев назад
That's like saying it is important to add fuel before every trip. If you need to be told that, GTFO of the cockpit!
@MichaelCarrPilot
@MichaelCarrPilot 6 месяцев назад
@@paradoxicalcat7173 ok. Say that to those that get too slow, don’t pay attention to the ball and spin to the ground.
@mktwatcher
@mktwatcher Год назад
Obviously depends on aircraft type/model, wind/weather, density altitude and how much you have your aircraft loaded etc.
@speedomars3869
@speedomars3869 Год назад
No. It is not possible no matter what aircraft you are in.
@lucmatter9601
@lucmatter9601 7 месяцев назад
The longer the runway, the stronger the headwind, the lighter and slower the aircraft, the more possible the turn gets. Airspeed is key. So is a good pre takeoff briefing, including all these elements. Check!
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 2 месяца назад
i TAUGHT TURNBACKS in the 1990's. To about 20 students then i went to fly private jets than dont do them. I put a blue line on airspeed indicator and an altimeter marker on altimeter.
@MustafaDane
@MustafaDane Год назад
Isn't it departure leg? (Upwind is different)
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
Also called the climb out leg. Upwind Leg is the one opposite the downwind leg. The one used after a go around from base or final.
@NorthwestAeronaut
@NorthwestAeronaut Год назад
Great video Jason! But remember, it’s the DEPARTURE leg that we lose power/cut power on for simulated purposes. We’re not on the upwind unless we aren’t getting blown over there off the extended centerline. Lol.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
That is a bad habit to call the climb out or Departure leg as THE UPWIND. Or to call the EFATO Turnback as "The 180" as he does many times up to now.
@eds.173
@eds.173 Год назад
I think Jason does call this the Departure/Upwind leg in his prior Patreon and/or podcast on the possible turn. However I have the same concern as you regarding the terminology. I've asked numerous experts including Jason, about this and the answer I get is that it's custom, even though it's not correct terminology according to the AIM and other sources. For a good blog post on this google this one by Jason Blair: "So where in the pattern is the upwind".
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@@eds.173 BAD Custom. Like pilots calling over Joes Bar.. What? You dont know where Joes Bar is? Its on the mid upwind.. .. GEE.... F them..
@rodneyhilton2155
@rodneyhilton2155 Год назад
This training and Steve from Flight chops video saved my life on a take off a few years back. Encountered carb ice event after rotating and climbing out over highway. I knew not to turn back, did gradual turns, and kept picking places to crash. What is your advice on application of carb heat after full throttle is applied? Do you recommend touching mixture? Thanks for the video. Stay safe.
@marsgal42
@marsgal42 Год назад
Tests in my Musketeer suggest an impossible turn becomes possible at about 900 feet AGL. It won't be pretty, and there isn't much margin, but I'd (probably) make it. I was also taught to keep my hand on the throttle until 1000 feet AGL. When I did a checkride in a 172 a couple of years ago the instructor threw several simulated engine failures at me. The big thing he was looking for was best glide speed - NOW - before doing anything else.
@TheBappy56
@TheBappy56 Год назад
Glider training requires a return to field after a 200' rope break. I've done one pre-solo and I actually had to worry about how much runway was remaining. I had an instructor on board and up at about 6000' DA. It came in handy one day at a negative DA day in a 150 where I had a 150' engine failure and I almost had to put it on a taxiway. Luckily the engine came back and stayed but the pitch over was eye-opening for sure, as well as how engrained my emergency procedures were. I recommend glider training in pretty much all cases now.
@TgardnerH
@TgardnerH Год назад
I first soloed in gliders, and I love how deep that muscle memory of "nose down, roll, keep the speed up" is.
@speedomars3869
@speedomars3869 Год назад
Gliders are NOT powered aircraft.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@@speedomars3869 Lady, airplanes can also glide while turning, Unless you are not a pilot and freaks out.
@speedomars3869
@speedomars3869 Год назад
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 Hope you do not consider yourself a pilot and get into an aircraft and try to fly one. You have no cue what you are talking about. Granny.
@davidwhite8633
@davidwhite8633 2 месяца назад
@@speedomars3869But the aerodynamics , power-off, are the same. Read TgardnerH’s comment above again.
@Marcello1b
@Marcello1b Год назад
My brother fly. I totally don't, but, for sure, I'd love it. This "saefety crash" course is a great valuable course I'm going to send it to my brother.... Hopefully, he won't do it "for fun" but with full preparedness. I have another brother who has full flight simulator program and gadget. I'll tell him to try it also. And, Thanks for the tips!!!
@jannepeltonen2036
@jannepeltonen2036 Год назад
I did a club checkout flight in Northern Finland and the FI made me practice the impossible turn. We were able to turn back consistently from 500 feet AGL (Cessna 172P, two people, airport more or less sea level). After the turn, we actually had to slip slightly to avoid overshooting the (long) runway, it was a pretty windy day. Seeing the ground rush up to you in that steep gliding turn was quite an experience.
@jannepeltonen2036
@jannepeltonen2036 Год назад
That said, my pre takeoff briefing still comes with 'push, XX [speed depending on the plane], shallow turns, forced landing in the front sector' :)
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@@jannepeltonen2036 A building ? A school bus full of students ? A tractor trailer opposite direction? A National Guard M1 tank ready to fire ? A landmined field? You ex wife waiting for your alimony ? Forgetabout it. 800 agl feet on my grumman. and im doing the Turnback to opposite..
@hugovandenberg313
@hugovandenberg313 Год назад
An essential part of our pre takeoff briefing is what to in case of an EFATO. Returning to the airport is only considered above 1000ft AGL. My CFI regularly pulls the power after takeoff, just to keep me sharp.
@way2manyhobbies
@way2manyhobbies Год назад
Great video. I had an engine failure at 100 feet after takeoff. I remenber saying " "airspeed airspeed airspeed" as i made a gentle turn to my right and went down in an overgrown pasture which ripped my right gear off, spun me 90 degrees before i hit the ground. Walked away without a scratch on me due to the low stall speed of my AC, deceleration and shock absorption from the overgrown saplings in the field.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
I taught EFATO and LOTOT turnbacks to many in the 1990's. It depends on weight and winds mostly. And practice. I had to do one partial power from 300 agl, and 3 i know had to do with bad engines partial powr from 400 and 700 agl. Those were done on short wing cherokees and C150. We had houses around the airport. No power i taught on my cherokee 150hp from 800 agl but only if climbed at over 700 fpm. You cannot do no power EFATO Turnback if did a shallow climb.. You wont reach the airport and will be An Impossible Turnback.
@jimmydulin928
@jimmydulin928 Год назад
Excellent coverage of the considerations of possible turns and the impossible turn. Eleven of my thirteen engine failures happened below 200' AGL, so many possible but no impossible turns. Concerning startle, I had the advantage of them happening mostly crop dusting and patrolling pipeline in tired small airplanes. I expected to have an engine failure every time I went out. Concerning the push to unload the wing, which I totally agree with for those using Vx or Vy as appropriate, I never had to do that. My default was acceleration in low ground effect, all the way to cruise in crop fields and on long runways and then pitch up only enough to just clear any obstructions I could not rudder turn around. For low altitude orientation, 17,000 hours of which I flew, I teach never pitch up without zoom reserve airspeed for maneuvering. Zoom reserve airspeed works with or without engine power. For turns I teach default relaxing all back pressure in all turns. Thus all turns are 1 g, regardless of bank angle. Again good lesson. What you covered I always had and only broke three of the aircraft: Cobra in combat, Pawnee turnover in soft field, and I poisoned myself enough to mess up a forced landing in a CallAir and cartwheeled it. I was so far behind the airplane in that one that it should have killed me, but it just broke the right wing spar in two places and tore the engine off with little damage to the rest of the airplane and none to me. Until we get that thousand feet, airspeed and not altitude is life. I instructed but left the prep for the PTS/ACS Vx or Vy as appropriate to other instructors because along with doing so much low work, I just couldn't make myself go there. I really disagree with teaching as default a technique that is almost never appropriate. Even though we left max loaded from mostly short strips spraying, we always gleaned every inch of low ground effect energy possible and never overflew obstructions by more than a few feet. The farmer said I had hit a tree more than once, but it was only down wash. Safe maneuvering flight techniques kept me alive.
@RaineyParker
@RaineyParker Год назад
"Zoom reserve airspeed works with or without engine power. For turns I teach default relaxing all back pressure in all turns. Thus all turns are 1 g, regardless of bank angle." AND "Until we get that thousand feet, airspeed and not altitude is life." Sage advice from a true low-level pro. I can remember the magical way my flying fell into a flow... the moment I stopped loading the wing in turns. Thanks again for sharing these. pearls.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
Agreed Mr. Dullin. Learned to fly on Piper Colt flying brick. Always kept nose as low a possible on take offs and Vy climbs just in caseengine fails. CFI made me do a few Vx take offs at 60 mph on that short wing before i soloed at only 10 hours/17 years old in 1969. But i never did those Vx take offs myself even when he wanted me to do them when solo. If that engine coughed, I could stall it before pushing nose down. I was a 125 pound skinny kid, so my CFI wanted to see how good the Colt will climb with me only on a Vx take off when soloed. I didnt do that and he asked me why not when i finished the 3 touch and goes solo. I Learned much later that stupid Vx take off high AOA have killed thousands of pilots. Too much angle change needed to gain from Vx to Vglide speed if engine quit. Also high wingers dont have a fuel pressure pump to keep fuel pressure on high angle climbs. They should. I think that high angle on a say dirty or old gravity fed system can block fuel pressure a lot to carburetor.
@jimmydulin928
@jimmydulin928 Год назад
@@RaineyParker Sure. As Wolfgang explains the law of the roller coaster in Stick and Rudder, we can trade zoom reserve airspeed for wings level climb a bit before releasing that back pressure in the turn where we trade that extra altitude for airspeed. Levelling the wing again before pull up (steep crop duster turns), we avoid graveyard spiral. So turn of any bank at 1 g and maintenance of altitude if we wish that rather than diving into the crop field. Nothing wrong with level turns during instrument flight where all control input is limited by honest fear, but they are certainly more dangerous and not necessary in maneuvering flight.
@drakepuckett94
@drakepuckett94 Год назад
The two airports I primarily fly out of have open fields all around so I would definitely attempt to land in one of those if I didn’t have enough altitude to execute the impossible turn 😅
@Captndarty
@Captndarty Год назад
I agree, 100% and practicing this down to the altitude of which you won’t return. Every airplane and pilot are different so practicing in a specific aircraft is paramount. I’ve practice in my Rans as 21 and have been able to get it down to just shy of 250-300 feet.
@n1vca
@n1vca Год назад
Great video, very good advice, can be life saving! Thanks so much. It is quite difficult to learn this reflex, which is the opposite of what most non professional pilots or wannabe pilots like me, would do, keeping it level, when you have to actively enforce a dive in order not to stall and stay in control! Please make sure when you try this closer to the ground to inform the tower beforehand to avoid heart attacks from watching you! Also try stuff like that on a modern simulator first to get a feel for what is theoretically possible before you do this in real life near the ground. And make sure you know the best glide speed of your aircraft to maximize the range and turn into the wind, making the radius smaller in order to hopefully make it back without a damage. If the runway is busy or difficult to reach, but the taxiway is not, do a Harrison Ford and land on it, since this is not about playing by the rules, it is about surviving and minimizing damage.
@eds.173
@eds.173 Год назад
Great comments. The Redbird FMX has helped me develop the muscle memory for this maneuver, and evaluating success when changing parameters, such as runway length, wind speed/direction etc. Also back pressure on the yoke/stick will be necessary to maintain best glide since the maneuver is a descending spiral. There should still be enough margin in a 45 degree bank at Vbg to prevent an accelerated stall
@neependse
@neependse 7 месяцев назад
The impossible turn is all about climb gradient (ft/ mile) vs power off descent gradient (ft/ mile). It has some to do with runway length. It has almost nothing to do with altitude (300 or 500 or 1000), especially on a straight out. I am not an instructor (yet!) but I am hoping we start talking about these variables and come up with some basic set of rules to help pilots -- these rules can be applied on the ground (part of takeoff brief). The challenge (and this is where you can help!) has been how to take the relatively complex math (I am working on a spreadsheet) and figure out a simplification such that it can be used as thumb rules. Happy to talk. But without the actual variables at play ... pretty much all material on this is hard to use.
@mooneyviews8390
@mooneyviews8390 Год назад
Funny you chose KHWD as your visual example of an airport with limited options. That’s my home airport and I’ve always been concerned about the lack of options there. The golf course is too close to the runway to be realistic in most cases. I think about the marshy section along the coast of the bay as the best option below 800 to 1000 feet. What do you think?
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
I agree - turn left if you can
@j.henderson5273
@j.henderson5273 28 дней назад
Thank you Jason! You are my RU-vid CFI. I am not a pilot, but I have enjoyed studying GA. I have been observing the “impossible turn” topic and the pilot decision of choices of “never attempt” to possibly “consider”. @zach’ comment notes from the ASI’s video that certain aircraft (and conditions) give a little more favorable probability of performing this maneuver. High wing aircraft in the sample (Cub/Cessna 172) satisfactorily performed the turn (at various altitudes). The only low wing aircraft, Bonanza struggled in the test. Since altitude and distance appear to be key variables, wouldn’t it always be good consideration to choose the “best angle-of-climb” vs “best rate-of-climb” as possibly achieving higher altitude and minimum distance from the airport to raise the probability of making the impossible turn more possible?
@eds.173
@eds.173 Год назад
Great video and topic. I'm surprised there's no mention in the video or the comments below on the Possible Turn articles/webinars by Barry Schiff years ago or Brian Schiff more recently. I think these will end up being classic. (Both explicitly state however, as you do, that the turnback should not be attempted except when landing straight ahead is not a viable option). Brian even has a worksheet describing the technique and where you can plug in the numbers for altitude lost, height at the end of the runway, and adding 50% to the altitude lost as a cushion for other factors. They recommend a climb between Vx and Vy as a compromise between too high an AOA (Vx) and too great a distance from the runway (Vy). They recommend a 45 degree bank at Vbg for an optimal, safe turn radius. (Master CFI Russ Still told me that in a descending 1G turn, laws of physics dictate that the airplane must accelerate, and to arrest this, back pressure is required in the same amount as required in a level banked turn of the same bank angle. In this gliding banked turnback he says use enough back pressure to fly at Vbg to control the airspeed, though he prefers a 30 degree bank for a safer margin above stall.) The other thing the Schiffs recommend is that the pilot is proficient in the maneuver, and that requires recurrent practice AT ALTITUDE in the airplane you typically fly. Personally, I think that practicing this real-time after takeoff, should be left to the experts such as you or those in the AOPA video demonstration. Otherwise, a good alternative is practicing the maneuver in a good full motion simulator such as the Redbird FMX, as I've spent several hours doing. Finally, unless the maximum rate of climb in fpm is dramatically greater than the maximum glide rate of descent in fpm you'll have difficulty getting back to the runway. A Bonanza is a good example of this difficulty whereas it's well within the capability of other high performance airplanes such as a Mooney.
@junetebarts1334
@junetebarts1334 Год назад
I had an engine failure on climbout at 600 ft in a light sport. The "startle effect" is real. After that, I pushed the nose down and turned cross-wind and then downwind. Once I had reached about 100 ft, I turned base, then quickly final - landing on the same runway I took off from. My instructor always taught me to circle, not to do the impossible turn. I have never seen a video that shows that.
@fishhisy
@fishhisy Год назад
Feb 23 2021, I lost my engine after take off departing LVK 7L, and I was 100 feet AGL my only option was a highway overpass, and on roll out I had a rear end collision with a car. No injuries and a clean flying record, thankfully.
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
Is good to hear that story and I’m glad you’re all right. There weren’t many options at 100 feet AGL but it could’ve ended a lot worse. There was a similar accident out of Concord. We’re a little girl got her leg cut off on the way home from soccer practice from the spinning propeller.
@fishhisy
@fishhisy Год назад
@@TheFinerPoints I've never really practiced engine outs to that extent, just the normal ones that are required for checkouts and the like.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@@fishhisy Coward CFI you had. I taught 4 kinds of EFATO in my 1990's CFI years. In the millennium, with youtube there is no excuse to skip the main 4 kinds of EFATO.
@babyUFO.
@babyUFO. Год назад
6:25 You began this scenario with "If the engine stalls at 1000ft" ... crossing the 2000 mark isn't even an option at this point.
@ronsflightsimlab9512
@ronsflightsimlab9512 Год назад
Great topic... I think statistics lie to us here though. The ones who make it don't always end up in a report... But almost all the ones that don't get reported. THAT said, if you practice this enough, I don't think there is harm if the altitude AGL is within your personal minimums. My home airport is boxed in by freeways, so I intend to take my students on a drive around them to identify hazards... Can't hurt.
@afdchocolatemilk2107
@afdchocolatemilk2107 8 месяцев назад
Well AOPA's Richard McSpadden a propionate of the impossible turn, recently died trying to make the impossible turn. I'm pretty sure if he can't do it in a cessna and 20,000 plus hours flying, there is little or no chance of me doing it in my Mooney. So I will still with 30 degrees left and right looking for a safe place to land.
@davidstelmaschuk4198
@davidstelmaschuk4198 Год назад
Can you do a video if you have to land straight ahead or do an emergency landing and trees or water are your only option what is the best approach for that. What is better to pick trees or water? IDK.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
Most of those are crashes, not landings.
@mktwatcher
@mktwatcher Год назад
Good demo, Thank you
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
He didnt finish the landing from 500 agl. LOL..
@Spinattitude
@Spinattitude Год назад
That CFI had balls of steel.
@messianichebrewshawnkawcak1550
The CFI did what he had to. I am glad the airports around the part of New Mexico I would be flying in are desert with few obstacles. The Albuquerque airports have open areas, Socorro is the same way, Interstate is an option at a couple airports. The high density altitude, especially in the summer would be an issue.
@andreaberry3553
@andreaberry3553 Год назад
Great video - just note it’s the departure leg not upwind
@andreaberry3553
@andreaberry3553 Год назад
Upwind is on the opposite side of the field from downwind and “departure leg” is the path you’re on when you takeoff but before you turn crosswind or depart the pattern
@nealhere
@nealhere 8 месяцев назад
Today lake placid.
@kene8895
@kene8895 Год назад
How's the status on PP online ground school for windows and android?
@Pilot-Ali
@Pilot-Ali Год назад
That’s why I use full length of the runway, so during engine failure I can land on remaining runway under me with full flaps.
@MasterCarguy44-pk2dq
@MasterCarguy44-pk2dq Год назад
My brief is 700 ft agl with 1 pax onboard. 600 alone. And knowing the wx is soooo important. I think we need to bump up the standards for ppl on wx, check lists, briefings and require the 3 t'n'g every 45 days not 90.
@MrShenron89
@MrShenron89 Год назад
I also like practicing salvageable bad approaches/landings incase you don't get a second chance. It's really good to differentiate when to go-around and what can be saved. Obviously, when in doubt go around!
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
Many crashes on go arounds from flare with full flaps. Learn how to fix the flare.
@eds.173
@eds.173 Год назад
Learn how to fix the full flaps (while in ground effect) during the go-around, at least in Cessnas...
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@@eds.173 If you know how to fix the flare instead of going away from it, you wont have to go around from a bad flare. Duhh !
@offshoretinker
@offshoretinker Год назад
Without being silly and you have enough height to make the turn and have the runway in front of you it is not impossible. However, if you've been told that the turn is impossible and you have never practiced it, then when you see the groundspeed increasing and you are flooded with adrenaline then your brain will shut down and all you want is for the groundspeed to slow - hence stall spin. The secret is practice, practice, practice and adopt the aircraft standard of DMMS (defined minimum manoeuvre speed) and being pushed by Dan Gryder to get it adopted for GA.
@tomasgomez7083
@tomasgomez7083 8 месяцев назад
Perhaps airports should be required to own an empty field at an appropriate distance from the airport to allow for a safe landing if there is an engine failure on takeoff.
@MasterCarguy44-pk2dq
@MasterCarguy44-pk2dq Год назад
I see SO MANY ppl pilots even some with an IR silently doing chk lists and skipping briefings.
@user-el9zt6em8v
@user-el9zt6em8v Год назад
it's important to note that the impossible turn is more than 180 degrees. it's more like 360 if you draw it out. A 180 degree turn would put you parallel to the runway. maybe 500 to 1000 ft away. you need to turn more than 180 deg. to get back toward runway centerline and then turn again in the opposite direction to level out. It is only a 180 change in direction.
@amrhosny9330
@amrhosny9330 Год назад
can you share the make and source of the IPAD yoke mount
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
It’s made by PIVOT case (use code TFP on checkout!) it’s the only system I’ll use because it’s a universal mount and can easily be moved around in flight.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
Many so called "Experienced Pilots" are not experienced on Turnbacks Maneuvers, Be on GRM or EFATO. So that experience on other easier to do maneuvers DOES NOT COUNT WHEN YOU DO TURNBACKS. Same with accelerated stalls, go arounds from flare with flaps while turning, spins and aerobatics. That is why they crash on those maneuvers. IE; "It's a different kind of flying" (Altogether) LOL. I used to teach all the above maneuvers when CFI for 9 years. Airline pilots were the worst on those maneuvers when on singles.
@kdmello1
@kdmello1 Год назад
I always wondered if it would be possible to do and aggressive 180 with full aileron and rudder. Something like a hammerhead stall turn. I would love to teu this at altitude. Thoughts?
@Bartonovich52
@Bartonovich52 9 месяцев назад
No.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 2 месяца назад
i TAUGHT TURNBACKS in the 1990's. To about 20 students then i went to fly private jets than dont do them. I put a blue line on airspeed indicator and an altimeter marker on altimeter.
@RaceMentally
@RaceMentally 8 месяцев назад
Great video. I have your app currently. We tried this last week in 97-100* weather. My question is should I turn into or away from the cross wind? Also, we were very close to making the runway. Muscle memory and immediate turn and best glide we did.
@tbeevers
@tbeevers 8 месяцев назад
Turn into the wind...turning with a tail wind will push you further away from the runway. Just keep the nose down
@RaceMentally
@RaceMentally 8 месяцев назад
@@tbeevers saw a wreck recently where this happened. Pilot stalled and passed.
@davidwhite8633
@davidwhite8633 2 месяца назад
@@RaceMentallySo it was a LOC-I ( loss of control in flight ) accident, not a turn back accident ?
@altbob
@altbob Год назад
I want to get my wife rated with at least a Sport license before I rent a plane and the two of us set off on a cross country vacation somewhere. But man, I dread the day she has to experience a simulated engine out.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 10 месяцев назад
Those were Possible Turnbacks not "Impossible Turns". Lets Be clear. Pilots cannot be confused guys.
@fillywinks
@fillywinks Год назад
the _improbable_ turn
@tstanley01
@tstanley01 Год назад
It's easy in a 172. Try it from 1000 AGL in a grossed out A36 or SR22...
@daveg5857
@daveg5857 7 месяцев назад
1:30 What study or studies are you citing with the 99.9% figure?
@Bartonovich52
@Bartonovich52 9 месяцев назад
These turns can be impossible no matter what technique you use. Many light aircraft will have departure angles that are shallower than their glide angle. This is through things like high weight, high density altitude, low power, and no wind. You aren’t making it back to the runway at any altitude unless you made a turn with power.
@Dafnessific
@Dafnessific Год назад
Seaplanes, rise up (or settle down, as it were).
@FencerPTS
@FencerPTS Год назад
I often wonder if there is an optimal angle of bank where the maximum turn rate vs altitude lost is achieved.
@SoloRenegade
@SoloRenegade Год назад
of course it will vary by aircraft, but that would be an interesting thing to calculate. Airspeed will also be a factor. Rate of Turn vs Rate of Descent Maximize rate of turn while minimizing rate of descent. Where do these things cross each other (what bank angle/airspeed)?
@FencerPTS
@FencerPTS Год назад
@Solo Renegade agreed, quite a few variables going in, but it could be done at Vbg to control at least for that variable. After that, it's a matter of various weights...similar to the performance tables for the C172 could do it at 2200, 2400, 2550. Of course, the bigger the radius the further we have to glide to get to the runway way. If the radius is small we might have to turn a total of 200 degrees amd glide very little, but if the radius is large we might have to turn a total of 400 degrees amd glide a considerable amount. And all of this with a large tail wind component. So maybe we have to simplify this to a 270 degree turn?
@pilotavery
@pilotavery Год назад
Steep as possible. If you bank 60°, yeah you lose altitude twice as fast but you turn four times as fast so you spend a lot shorter going the wrong direction
@SoloRenegade
@SoloRenegade Год назад
@@FencerPTS and don't forget runway remaining when teh engine failed, as that affects how far you have to glide back too. And a cross wind could help you do just approx 180 and still be ok. The problem is that there are just too many variables for a given situation. All of which affects the ability to make the turn, and all of which would need to be known ahead of time by th pilot. But from a purely Rate of Descent vs Rate of Turn evaluation...that is more practical. How many degrees you'll need to turn to get back is of no concern for the calculation, and neither is the altitude at which you started. All we care about is what is the best rate of turn for a given aircraft at a given weight (I'd calculate it at three points: light, medium/typical, and heavy load) and bank angle. Or you could just do a light load and heavy load and interpolate, but it might not be completely linear relationship. But you're going to find an optimum bank angle curve, and then calculate the rate of descent for a given bank angle. and you'll have to do this for given speeds, and you'd start at best glide and check higher and lower speeds from there.
@alemoncada
@alemoncada Год назад
​@@SoloRenegade I've always had a problem with his much runway remaining i actually have. I mean, during climb after rotation i don't see the runway anymore, so how do I know how much of it is left? Or maybe it's doesn't matter, cause ad soon as my engine quits and i nose over, I'll see if I do have runway left! You see, I'm making assumptions but i don't really know
@lifestory2598
@lifestory2598 Год назад
Besides this all, your prop is idle but not giving drag - as it would on a seizure or whatever
@TheFinerPoints
@TheFinerPoints Год назад
Yeah. and I was the only one onboard at sea level
@charlescz1974
@charlescz1974 Год назад
Dead engine non-rotating prop or feathered prop is lowest drag for a calculated glide ratio. Airspeeds higher than prop speed makes for a reduced glide ratio due to the rotational prop drag; unless your glide ratio takes this into consideration. However, your possible turn video here is great for being prepared for a fast recovery, and don’t panic. All pre-takeoff checklists must include the emergency plan for a given runway.
@lankeyswainable
@lankeyswainable Год назад
I'm a former bush pilot with a low level rating. I found in a cessna 172 it's possible to achieve this turn above 300ft agl. The ground shy reaction is real it makes people not fly the plane to the ground. Nose down and turn with the stall warning on but aircraft not stalled and the stronger the head wind on take off the further you will get towards the runway.
@outwiththem
@outwiththem Год назад
Did you land it, or cancelled the BS before landing it. I did them in 1996 in training with 11 knot winds to a 4.4 feet runway. Did 4 in training. More later as CFI myself.
@lankeyswainable
@lankeyswainable Год назад
@outwiththem made it back to the runway any time above 300ft agl. Less than 300ft the runway environment was achieved
@outwiththem
@outwiththem Год назад
@@lankeyswainable Was that with partial power? That can be. But no power, and waiting 3 seconds before turning? umm ! something is BS there.
@lankeyswainable
@lankeyswainable Год назад
@outwiththem when bush flying and low level flying your always on edge and ready for the turn back. It's what we brief before take off. If it just a cough in the engine and you have turned its no problem but if not you are facing the Runway with a tail wind so you do make and land it if your good enough
@outwiththem
@outwiththem Год назад
@@lankeyswainable I partial power. zero power, even with only one on board a c172, i doubt it. UNLESS YOU HAVE A LOT OF WIND to help you come back.. see ELM channel about that..
@boosterhuiz2779
@boosterhuiz2779 8 месяцев назад
Best way to know what your plane can and cannot do, is try it, at altitude. haha.
@mrkhan2983
@mrkhan2983 Год назад
Its always better to do it at min 700ft AGL with 2 people on board on standard 172.
@flybobbie1449
@flybobbie1449 Год назад
With total engine failure, more drag is produced when idling than when you practise by pulling the throttle. My last engine failure 6 months ago in a Tomahawk from 700 feet i departed runway 22 and turned left and landed on runway 34. Most important thing was to take control from student and stuff the nose down for 80 kts and turn. Then wings level glided at 75kts not best glide 70 as there is no margin of error, nothing to play with. Landed no problem. Seems like water in fuel.
@davidwhite8633
@davidwhite8633 2 месяца назад
I think you mean windmilling , not idling. Yes the drag is a lot in the former because there is no thrust at all and the POH gives only a 8.5 glide ratio for a windmilling prop. Pulling the throttle gives a deceptively shallower glide angle because there’s some residual thrust at idle RPM.
@flybobbie1449
@flybobbie1449 Месяц назад
@@davidwhite8633 Correct i used the wrong term, windmilling more drag than closed throttle idling.
@flybobbie1449
@flybobbie1449 Месяц назад
@@davidwhite8633 Yes perhaps we should set say couple stage of flap to simulate the real performance with power loss. My old Battle of Britain instructor said about stopping the prop if on fire, could also improve the glide performance. Done it few times over the airfield.
@davidwhite8633
@davidwhite8633 Месяц назад
@@flybobbie1449 Yes, he was right about the stopped prop and further improved glide ratio. Of course, if the engine seizes ,it will be done for you ! No necessity to pitch up to near stall warning horn to stop it. In the unlikely event your prop is featherable then pulling the prop control to full coarse pitch will do even better for the glide ratio.
@flybobbie1449
@flybobbie1449 Месяц назад
@@davidwhite8633 Well in his context it was to stop feeding fires. He said he saw aircraft diving trying to put out flames, but aircraft just burnt up.
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 2 месяца назад
YOU NEED TO KNOW TURNBACKS.- Not only for EFATO. You need turnbacks also on Circling Approaches, Flyover Turnbacks, Box Canyon turnbacks, overhead airport to enter the 45 after. Many accidents on those 5 places were the pilot made turnback errors and crashed. His fault- for not knowing Turnbacks well. A 180 is not a full turnback, just an U Turn. Turnbacks are bigger turns that finish at almost or the same place you were before. A course reversal, not just a heading reversal 180 turn. Turnbacks are more than a 180. Many CFI's call a 180 a turnback. No its not. TO TEACH TURNBACKS; It is better to teach "Turnbacks To A Flyover" FIRST. The GRM TURNBACKS first, then the emergency and circling ones later on after you do them level flight well. I taught them all 2 decades ago and researched about the accidents causes on them a lot. Most pilots dont know those maneuvers well and do them very wrong, or stall and crash. Even ATPs crashes. 1-The Teardrop Turnback to a flyover a spot on ground do it first. Fly at Vglide speed slow flight over highway (w. a Crosswind). With flaps 10 degrees. 1,000' agl. Fly over spot on highway, turn away from wind 40 degr. , then into wind. Fly over the spot on highway again, after flyover repeat same steps on other side. Do 3 on each side until perfection Teardrop Turnbacks. One turn turnbacks require 2k feet dist. from flyover spot. Dont do them yet. Those are more difficult and dangerous. Later on i will type about those Hook Turnbacks. Cropdusters do them only after getting low in weight. I used to call them Question Mark Shaped Turnbacks. 2k distance after flyover, Vglide speed, bank 45 degr. more later on that QMark ? Turnback. 2-Then Box Canyon Turnbacks Scenario (Climbing Vx but at 60% power only to sim a 10k density alt.) Then the Circling Approach overfly + Turnback, then the LOTOT Turnbacks and no power EFATO at end. Some day you will have to do those maneuvers. Some say to keep the ignorance. But Ignorance is not the solution, IGNORANCE IS THE PROBLEM. Most pilots that crashed doing turnbacks on those 5 places were Turnback ignorant 1
@bradcohen3801
@bradcohen3801 Год назад
I practice this regularly, best I can do in my 601 is 500’. Period. End of story.
@slipstream5542
@slipstream5542 Год назад
as R A "Bob" Hoover said ... if crash bending/ the airplane iminent the n FLY the airplane as far into the crash as possible
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