I'm blown away by your videos. Just what many of us sourdough geeks dream of but don't all have the committment and scientific vigilance to carry out! Grateful that you were inspired to take this journey and to share it with the world. So much great knowledge to be absorbed from all your videos. Thank you.
Thank you! I really appreciate the feedback. I wish I had time to do even more experiments. Also check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com Lots of additional great content there.
What a PHENOMENAL educational segment! You are an amazing, helpful, extremely intelligent guy! The fact that you went out of your way, spent hours and hours of assembling this information, creating the video and all of the slides/information.....I'm in awe of you! Thank you SO much for doing all you do! I love all of your videos!! We all appreciate your efforts! 😊
Oh Tom .. I've been searching for the best cooking temperature for sourdough for more than 3 yrs.. finally i find it 👌👌 .. you deserve so much appreciation from sourdough community
Wow, that was a lot of work, it’s appreciated! I’m a long time bread baker but new on this sour dough journey, it’s a different kettle of fish! My take home message from this video is that I need to work on the 80% factor…..proofing! I’m using the Le Crueset bread cloche for my sour dough, I have yet to see a real baker use one on RU-vid, hint hint!
Congratulations on the new division, A truly must in a respected institute like yours 😂 Just love the sense of humor! Thank you very much on the effort in all your videos!
Tom, thank you for doing this. It would be interesting to compare loaves baked in a cloche and on a steel with steam added to the environment. Have you done any baking with freshly milled flour? I have been experimenting with using up to 50% hard red or hard white freshly milled wheat. Great flavor and tighter crumb. I prefer this bread for toast and sandwiches.
Thank you, John. The next round of tests will be using different types of vessels. I generally do not use fresh milled flours. They’re too highly variable for these experiments. But maybe I’ll try some for my “normal eatin’” bread. Thanks!
I taught culinary arts to students for years at a prestigious culinary school. 60% of the students were very enthusiastic, most were paying their own way and worked hard. 30% were students who showed up occasionally, studied never, never worked in food service. This 30% couldn’t even balance their checkbooks. A career in culinary arts is made up the use of mathematics and most of those 30%’rs couldn’t find a percentage if they had to. These were destined to fail and find a good government job. Went through 12 years of school and have no basic math skills. That happens in public schools where you have mostly unenthusiastic instructors and students that think success is given out like a trophy they never earned. I thing this channel is the best I’ve seen on the subject of baking bread. Go watch one of those guys who have photos of great bread, but have to use commercial yeast to get a rise.
OMG I’ve been trying to learn how to make sourdough bread while recovering from surgery. I’ve watch so many RU-vid videos in the last 5 weeks. Yours are the very best. Thank you so much. You have addressed so many of the problems I’ve had, right down to the pot size question. Love, love, love. And, your videos are not too long. Adore the scientists in your lab! 😄
Excellent treatise on sourdough thermodynamics. You explained something that it took me a while, and a couple of ruined bakes, to discover: As you said, you can never heat a loaf above boiling temperature - except after destroying it by removing all the moisture. The important thing to also know is that boiling temperature is not necessarily 212 F. It varies with altitude. 212 F is the boiling temperature at sea level. Up where I live, at 6,700 above sea level, the boiling point is about 198 F, so I am happy to get an internal temperature above 195 or so -- and never expect much higher. The problem is, that if you look up - "When is bread properly done?", the answers don't factor in altitude, and will have high elevation people chasing an impossible goal.
Do you find it cooks quicker than expected? I do. Also seems to get bone dry inside. Another aside, I've been recommended to put an ice cube in the dutch oven along with the dough, to add more steam. Have you heard that one?
I can’t thank you enough for running these experiments and making such a detailed video of the process and the results. Clearly it must have been a ton of work. But I’m thrilled with all I’ve learned from watching the video and can’t wait to put these lessons into practice.
@@thesourdoughjourney your work is very appreciated👍🏽 Today I baked with lower temperature and used your parchment paper trick, it really did impact the oven spring. Thank you from Denmark 🇩🇰
Thank you. I appreciate the feedback. I spent two years really building out the content and now with my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com and on Instagram, I'm promoting the content. Thank you for the support.
Amazing video. Such detail, so informative and great humor. I really learnt so much, and I watched from beginning to end. A true testament to your ability to communicate information. Great job Tom. Thank you so much for sharing everything.
Thank you! I’ve tried your cold bake method a few times now with good results every time. I also have an interesting Timelapse video of the loaf rising using the cold bake method (not included in the video). I’ll post this on one of the Facebook groups next week.
Hi your experiments are great thank you! I live in the UK and use Elaine’s method (no more burns from loading dough thank you Elaine x) however I use a Falcon enamel roasting pan as a Dutch oven rather than cast iron - I think that’s what Elaine uses too? So it would heat up much quicker than a traditional Dutch oven
I would love to see an experiment that shows what happens when you use your sourdough starter too early and too late. I have many times when starting out used my starter when it was not at peak or far past peak. But I never really know what to expect.
That’s a great topic that I am working on. I’ve done a few experiments recently. Lots to cover on that topic. It makes a big difference and very little data on that.
Very informative. Another gadget to buy but seems worth it. I'm not buying a bigger Dutch oven, just using what I have. I think you are teaching me a lot by your experiments so I thank you.
Fabulous video, thank you. Did you notice any difference in crust thickness? I've had some loaves, while trying different techniques, come out with a very thick crust that is difficult for the bread knife (I bought the one you recommend) to cut and is almost painful to eat. I'd love to understand what factors contribute to crust thickness.
Thanks! A few ways to soften the crust include: 1) add oil or butter to the mix, 2) bake longer with the lid on, 3) ferment the dough longer. I’ve left my shaped loaves in the fridge for 3 days before baking. Also, when you take the loaf out of the oven, wrap it in a kitchen towel. That will capture moisture in the crust and soften it a bit.
I'm finding this, and your other videos, so helpful. So informative, resulting in more efficient and better tasting sourdough. Thanks for all you've done on your channel.
How can I find a high-protein bread flour? All flours from different stores show the same protein content of 4 g out of 30 g. Actually, they behave quite differently.
@@thesourdoughjourney Canda. I found that the Costco Whole Wheat flour leavens good, but has low protein and bad window pan. Neverthless, the high protein Costco All Purpose Flour has good window pan but levans very badly. Do you have a solution. Thank you!
Great video Tom, 2 questions 1- have you done a video using an enameled baker compared to cast iron? I am saving my back because I bake 20 plus loafs a week. I’m using enameled bakers mostly round bakers. 2- what is that wood form you use inside your loaf pan?
Thanks. Shortly after that video, I did some experiments with an enamel roaster. It worked perfectly fine. Preheats quickly, needs a baking sheet under it to keep from burning bottoms. Those wooden forms are some “reducers” I made in my shop to shrink down the loaf pans to smaller size for 330-400g flour-weight loaves. I was too cheap to buy a whole bunch of bannetons. The wood also absorbs some moisture, similar to a banneton.
Thanks for all the detailed information. I have a question. I would like to try baking my bread in a roasting pan instead of a dutch oven, I don't have one. Would I need to create steam in the oven with water to make it work? The roasting pan I have has a lid. I heard you can with an open bake but my roasting pan wouldn't have a tight fitting lid like dutch ovens so I think I would need to create steam. Thanks
Good question. Roasting pans work very much like a dutch oven. You don't need to add steam, and you actually don't need to preheat them very long because they heat up very quickly. Probably 10 minutes or less. I'd preheat the oven, then as it is approaching target temp, preheat the roasting pan for about 10 minutes, then load the dough.
Interesting topic on the oven spring. I use two Dutch ovens same time in my gas oven one is a cast iron Lodge and one is a nice baked enamel slightly more round Dutch oven. The same dough just weighed out for two and I get different results between the two ovens. Both are nice but again different results. Your videos by the way are on the border of mind blowing as to how much information and in-depth you get. Thank you so much for all your amazing videos.
I do not have Yet a Dutch oven .But I have a stainless steel pot that cover my bread.Is this recommended or does it make no difference..Alsoo ..Do I use Double heat ( above/ under ) or /and uncovering the dutch oven/ casserole trouought the process ore FAN HEAT .And MOSTLY IMPORTANT ! i have a oven with steam Function.Can i use this funtion and leave the Pots / Cast Iron Away...Thanks for your reply if possible.
You have many options. Any covered vessel can work like a Dutch oven. With a covered vessel you would, not use fan or steam. You can use the steam function for open baking (no vessel). Generally you don’t want to use the fan function when baking bread.
Amazing how things turn out when you apply a bare minimum of critical thinking and some basic thermodynamics. Makes sense that it should take approximately the same amount of total energy to get a loaf baked to the same point, with timings adjusted accordingly. I'd pay for all these, they turned out great. Thanks for putting in the work for the rest of us.
WoW !! I saw you use that ..wunderfull Cast Iron Domed Dutch oven..( 4th of July Brothers )Where can I find it ?? (alternative ok ) Send link please.If posseble Buy in Eu.
If you used the challenger the additional thermal mass would alter the relationship between oven wall and dough as well. As much thermal mass as possible is beneficial. I have a layer of thermal brick on top of the stone in my Pico Plus ovens
The k you Yes, I got a Challenger after I made this video. I’ve actually gone back to the large red Lodge Dutch oven . I get a little better ovenspring then the challenger. The lid of the challenger puts too much radiant heat right on the top of the loaf. I tried it a few times without preheating the lid and got pretty good results. They are all pretty close in performance now. I’m also testing a baking steel with a very thin aluminum dome shell. Basically no thermal mass on top. Pretty good results so far but need to bake longer before removing the lid.
Great video. A lot of work and thought has gone into this. Thank you. Just now and then you say things that are simply wrong. Pardon me for saying. Depth of scoring makes a huge difference. Over here in Europe we make many more breads than are typically seen on You Tube. Each has different scoring, placed differently on the loaf to get different blooming effects. So for instance Chad's off centre scoring was his Tartine signature. It make one side collapse outwards. In France (where he learned his craft) it is more typical to score on top, or with a bâtard with three diagonal score. Varying the depth of scoring will increase or decrease the extent of the blooming. No, it is very hard to get the inside of a loaf to 100C. Anyway the starch is fully gelatinised at 99C. Elsewhere (the adjoining article - which was superb BTW - You talk about doneness as if independent of internal dough temperature. No, internal temp. is the best way of measuring doneness. The internal bread water converts to water vapour well below boiling point. We call it evaporation in everyday life. I'm sorry you are really off on your temperatures at 28:20. 99C is the temp at which the starch is fully gelatinised. That is what we want with this style of loaf. A sandwich loaf we want 92C - 94C. With all of your temperature measuring devices and you think the loaf rapidly gets to near boiling? No it does not. The temperature rapidly rises toward the end of the bake. So it is not at 99C for very long before the loaf is baked. Once it get's there you've got your full gelatinised starch and you can finesse your crust with another fove minutes if you want. Bread crust and uncovering the D.O. The crust starts the Maillard reaction *when the loaf stops producing so much internal dough steam* allowing the crust temperature to increase to 150C. The external steam in the D.O. has already decreased by this point. It is not that necessary to uncover the D.O. just increase the time a few minutes. Yeast die off is the wrong temperature to use here. Yeast stops all fermentation at around 36C. With a sourdough bread the acidity has already reduced the speed of the yeast fermentation as well. Yeast activity in the oven is minimal and has little to do with oven spring. However as the CO2 gas in the vacuoles heats up it rapidly expands and that is most of the oven spring. Expanding water vapour also plays a big part. With your first loaf you under pre-heated the D.O. by 50C - You were not baking at 200C. Even 20 minutes in you did not reach 200C. That makes a nonsense of the test. Staying with the first loaf. At a final internal temperature of 80C The bread was not properly baked. 87C is generally regarded as a minimum. Reinhart says 93C. Sorry to have banged on a bit. I do read tech. articles and measure everything as well. Add to that 20 years of study baking and twenty before that. I'm afraid many of your ideas do not stand up to the science. You should perhaps study more before holding forth like this. I say this kindly as you are clearly a sincere person who cares about what you do. However your practical results are gold dust. Thanks for testing the cold method. That is gold dust. Thank you.
Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it. I do study the science before doing these videos. In this case my primary sources were Modernist Bread (Myhrvold and Migoya) and Sourdough Baking; A Treatise (Thomas Teffri-Chambelland). But I also produce these videos as live experiments and I just report out what I observe. Sometimes it comports with the science and sometimes it does not. I try to be transparent in what I’m doing. I live a sea level (100m) so it is easier and faster to hit 100C than in other locations. My emphasis on the fermentation happening in the oven is due to the popularity of the “cold start” method where people are not preheating the oven (and overproofing their loaves). I agree in a normal preheated oven, there is almost no additional fermentation happening. I don’t agree that the fermentation largely stops late in the process. My final proofed dough usually has a pH of 4.1 and the CO2 production doesn’t really stop until it hits about 3.8. This was my first test of Maillard reaction and I appreciate your insight on that.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you so much for the Teffri-Chambelland reference. I didn't know he had published a Sourdough Bread Book. I know him from You Tube. Impressive baker. I have ordered it this morning. FWIW I draw on a lot of research papers. Modernist Bread is fairly good, but it is patchy. Key subjects completely missed out and information too often given in brief form with very little data. Myhrvold seems to be more interested in photography. And, it _appears_ Reinhart jumped ship early on. I was disappointed with it at the price. But, yes it is a good source. I have great respect for your approach and the thoroughness and huge effort you put in. I have little doubt about your empirical findings. I was more concerned about some of your explanations which seemed founded on a less than full understanding of the processes involved. Yet even the best bread knowledge is still limited despite the many $millions spent on research. The chemistry interlinks so many different reactions. Maybe AI will sort that out. _What follows is more in the way of discussion and in no way criticism. I hope that is acceptable._ Two things stood out for me and I am grateful for the data. You had me reaching for references! (See 56:30) You found that internal dough temperature rose steadily and then more slowly at a steady rate until it reached peak temperature. It is measured, Irrefutable except by repeat experiment, further evidence. See Modernist Bread 3:290. Your internal dough temp. curve at 46:19 seemed more in line with that. Though I expect the curve will change depending on whether a tin/pan is used, or not. The curve flattens toward the end because the dough cannot reach 100C (at STP) as driving water vapour out of the loaf uses up energy preventing the loaf from reaching 100C at Standard Temp. and Pressure. Again your curve at 46:19 confirmed that. I'm sure baking in a blast furnace would give different results though. Yes, with a cold oven some fermentation must continue as the oven warms. Agreed. Oven power and insulation will have a big influence on the speed at which the oven reaches yeast inactivity levels (say 32-4C). Fan on or off too. Ah, Yeast activity and acidity. It's a difficult one. There are so many variables, buffering, the different variety of yeast present, what other molecules that might be present causing additional stress the yeast. Though it is generally held that at pH4.3 yeast activity is greatly diminished and it's activity rate is falling sharply. Your figure of pH3.8 is for zero activity? I know that at pH 4.4 I'm in for an extended proofing time because of slower yeast fermentation. But there too the LABS, some of which produce CO2 are still pretty active at that point. It get's complicated. All this said and done your approach is refreshing. I have little doubt you will bust a lot of myths along the way and so many which You Tube channels continuously promulgate by copycat. Home Bread Baking is fast becoming the last remaining enclave for 'real' craft baking. Artisan baking is moving away with accelerated methods in order to compete in the market place. And small batch baking uses different methodology to them anyway. So I think your work is very important. BTW I write home bread baking articles for more advanced home bakers. Trying, like you, to bring the science into the home and busting myths along the way. I think we may be of a kind. I hope my posts are are seen as being as sincere and thoughtful as you and your work. I have considerable respect for your response to my first post. I wish you and your project the very best.
Thank you. I appreciate the thoughtful feedback and insights. I’ve done some interesting studies of starter behavior using sealed pressure vessels and pH meters. It is not an ideal lab setup but I’ve run over 100 experiments and documented some interesting observations. Here are a few summaries. thesourdoughjourney.com/white-wheat-or-rye-what-is-the-best-flour-to-feed-your-starter/ thesourdoughjourney.com/can-you-freeze-your-sourdough-starter/ thesourdoughjourney.com/can-you-use-an-unfed-starter-directly-from-the-refrigerator/ I’d also love to get your opinion on the “acetone” odor in a starter (particularly a new one). thesourdoughjourney.com/my-sourdough-starter-smells-like-acetone/ You can email me directly at thesourdoughjourney@yahoo.com
@thesourdoughjourney Hi Tom Thank you for all of those links. That is right up my street. I shall enjoy those. Currently I am trying to meet some deadlines. I've saved the links for later. Thanks. I have no research evidence on why natural leavens sometimes smell of acetone. I do know that it can occur when it has not been fed for quite a while, or if it is kept above ideal yeast temperatures, say 32C(?). My guess is that the environment becomes either too acidic for the yeast, to hot for it to function or a lack of nutrition leading it to go into stasis. I suspect that unwanted bacteria can then take hold and it may be they which produce that chemical, or smell. Occasionally a new leaven might develop that smell if it is slow getting started and again I suspect it is unwanted bacteria at play before the yeast colony becomes strong enough to control their activity. These are guesses. I use whole grain flour to start a new leaven. Comparing it to white flour the nutrient and amylase levels are much higher and the starters develop much more quickly. I also add a little rye flour for the high amylase content which makes maltose from the starches and gives the yeast a boost. Kept at 26C - 28C a starter can be ready for the first bake in 48 hours. Though it takes approx. four weeks for the LABs to establish as it does for all starters. I mention this as the fast start up never gives me acetone smells. Also I store my starter in the fridge where it sits quite happily unfed for a week. Again with no acetone smells. The French like to add fruit to their new starters for the amylase in the fruit. I suspect a little diastatic malt would be a good booster for getting a new starter going for the same reason. TBH I've never needed to do this. I read about people struggling to get a new starter going. Always they are using white flour. Leaving temperature control out of the equation, (I suspect often the kitchen is too cool), I really wonder whether starting off with a nutrient and enzyme poor medium is wise. I merely take 50g of my wholemeal starter and feed it up with white flour when I want a white flour dough. It's still ready to use in 4-6 hours. The wholemeal / whole grain starter is much more robust. But, that is merely my way of managing starters. Which brings me to starters. Mine is a rolling one. Whatever leaven isn't used just goes back into the fridge. That is my starter to feed up for the next bake. I have a rolling leaven. No discards, no fuss, always works. Thanks for the links. I think the work you are doing is superb. There is such a great need to build up a body of knowledge appropriate to home baking if only to act as a bulwark against poor method and methods inappropriately brough over from commercial baking. Cheers.
Wildly informational video! Thank you at the institute for my ever learning sourdough bake experience 🙏 anyone who bakes sourdough ought to invest the time to watch this video of yours. Thanks 😊
thanks for gathering so much research - putting so much time in energy into this investigation WOW! and then the spider...Bravo for the dedication to sourdough. WOW! is the heat a wave or a particle ? HA .. I dub you the "well rounded baker." thanks again for all your time and energy
Thank you for the Video and the time you put into the science of Sourdough. Your new staff are a huge help! I've only made 12 loaves of sourdough and the biggest change for me came when I started using the cold retard on number 11 and 12. Prior to this video, I was pre-heating my pan for 45 minutes, and I was leaving the lid on. Thanks for the great science of sourdough.
Just watched this video again &, as usual, learned more. I, also, follow proof bread. From what I've been able to observe, is that PB sets their deck ovens in the 420-430F range. I know/understand that there are major differences between a commercial deck oven & my home oven Dutch oven method. Based on your video, I'm going to try baking when my DO is about 430F. Wonder if I'll see a difference?
You are hilarious AND very sexy in a Dan Akroyd kind of way! Thank you so much for all your nerdy tendencies, and I totally vibe with your wavelength and presentation skills. I will continue to try with my sourdough, although my main intent is to use freshly milled flour for the health benefits. No one sees my bread besides my family, I’ve convinced them I can walk on water, and my loaves always taste delicious. (Think more girl next door than Cindy Crawford, and instead of rocky ups and downs, she’s a happy wife with a happy life type of sourdough loaf.) I LOVE AND APPRECIATE your videos, you are definitely making me see there are thousands of variables that can keep both of us awake at night, but at the end of the day, it is the pursuit of the exhilaration that keeps us baking! PS: Love your brother also. You make a great team.
Wonderful experiments. Thank you for your assiduous attention to detail. Your approach made me think of the delightful book "Lessons In Chemistry" without the dog or social drama. (It’s now a series….) Thanks again for your videos; I’m putting them to good use.
People bake for different reasons. I like to bake for the aesthetics from time to time, as do others. And an open crumb has a different mouthfeel than a closed crumb. But for toast and sandwiches, I love a tighter crumb.
@@thesourdoughjourney I agree completely but I ask why do you bake bread if not for adding butter or cheese or something. For plain bread an open crump is fine. If you want to add anything to it it's not fine. What do you think the percent of people who bake bread do it to eat it plain? All I'm saying that an open crumb is not the grail people who actually want to use their bread as store bought substitute for home use should be chasing. If you want Instagram bread then chase the open crumb. If you want bread you can use at home then don't. Chase taste instead.
😲 Wow! Really eye opening to find the dutch oven temp so different than the preheated oven! I MUST get an infrared thermometer! Sometimes I get to my oven right away and sometimes I'm busy and let it go a bit.....and this could answer for some variations in my bakes....really surprised!
Great explanation but I’m constantly confused by every single time saying F and C temps. It might be less confusing to have done two videos saying F on one and C on the other for home bakers like me.
SUMMARY: *You can bake at lower temperatures, but it takes longer **Preheating helps, but isn’t really necessary ***Cooking at too high temperature hurts oven spring
Based on the 400f test I would say 425f would be a fine choice, that 25f will greatly speed browning after lid removal. Radiant heat is based on surface finish, but the performance in the infrared spectrum is not always connected to performance in the visual spectrum. This will also effect the calibration of your infrared thermometer, most are calibrated for an emissivity of around 0.7 to 0.8 (wood and rocks), a theoretical perfect blackbody is 1.0 and a finely made first surface mirror (highly polished metals, light does not enter glass) are around 0.02 to 0.06 and select forms of black carbon are 0.98
Curious to see a comparison between loaves baked in a dutch oven (flat top(lid)/bowl-shaped bottom) and a cloche (flat bottom/bowl-shaped top)-my intuition tells me that having the “leaky” part at the bottom (as it would be with the cloche) would mean that the steam would stay in the vessel longer, helping with oven-spring during the first phase of baking.
A good question I don’t have a traditional cloche right now so can’t say for certain. I do have the Challenger pan, which is essentially like a cloche with the seal at the bottom. I don’t see a material difference in the baked loaves as compared to my Dutch oven. And I don’t see more steam escaping when I open the lid. But I should do a side by side test.
Maybe I need to keep my lid on the entire time in my Dutch oven 🧐 bread had risen great the 1st 20 min but when I took the lid off I lost some of the rise & my bread was barely done in the center with very small holes & chewy 😢 what did I do wrong anyone? I’m new at all of thi.. I did bake it at 425, it was golden crisp on top, score could have been deeper too, it was in the refrigerator for 18hrs, dough looked really nice, so everything looked great, it’s the oven temp that failed me I believe
i admire you dedication to the science involved in your baking.. After watching I go have a question. What if any effect will Elevation have on the temp and bake of my sourdough? I live at an elevation of 4369 very low humidity oven is Propane gas. I have heard hta gas has more moisture released as it burns resulting in slightly higher humidity in the oven. Also does ELEVATION have any effect on sourdough starters and proofing?
This and your other videos are remarkable and fascinating to me. If you can, please let me know if you have any idea or interest in knowing if Chad R went through these kind of tests to determine his recipe or if he found what worked and never deviated from it?
He seems very analytical, but I’m guessing he developed his methods more through observational trial and error, as he was running a one-man bakery, doing everything himself and baking hundreds of loaves a day.
Tom, great video. There is so much drivel spoken as so called scientific method. My limited experience has shown me that good results can be achieved with minimum equipment and care. I use a stainless steel pot with a glass lid in an oven that has a top temperature of 200c. I turn my oven on 5 minutes beforehand with the pot in it and bake in 2 parts, lid on for 30 minutes, lid off for 30 minutes. then I turn off the oven and put the naked loaf back in the oven with the door open on the rack for 20 mins while it cools. I get a great spring.
What about adding ice cubes to the dutch oven? Does that impact oven spring? Since it increases steam and would prevent the crust from forming maybe it could also increase oven spring?
Loved your video ... so informative and entertaining! The only note I'd want to add is that Elaine Boddy, in the video of hers I watched, uses an enameled roasting pan not a cast iron dutch oven. I suspect the difference in baking pans has a pretty large effect on the finished product as well as all interim temperatures.
thanks for doing this video! I have noticed some of these differences but never quantified them except the pan size and shape. The convection conclusion re baking parchment was a total surprise. would aluminum foil just slightly larger than the dimensions of the finished loaf work better? or might it burn?
Thanks. I’ve had success just using a smaller piece of parchment paper. Just under the bottom, not up the sides. I also use new perforated silicone mat called Bread Mat from RoseHill Farms. Works perfectly and is reusable.
The mystery of dough #5 - Do I believe it's the parchment paper? Maybe, but couldn't you also have hit a large air pocket within the bread and got an off reading as well? Great video!!!
Love your videos, have gone through so many in just a couple of days. I did want to comment on one thing in this video, which is the observer effect, and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Initially when Heisenberg discovered the uncertainty principle, he thought it was an example of the observer effect. However, this reasoning wasn't correct. The two are separate concepts. The uncertainty principle is an inherent property of nature, not just at the quantum level, but at all levels due to nature of waves. It can be observed in water waves, and sound waves as well as electrons and light. There are coupled properties, where both cannot be known above a certain degree of certainty, and this is because of the nature of those properties, and not because of our observations of it.
Thank you! You should win a prize for being the first one to correct me on this. I realized it was incorrect after I had actually shot that segment of the video, before it was published. But I left it in, 1) because I knew it was similar enough that maybe I could get by with it, and, 2) as a test to see who would catch it. Congratulations! Can I send you something as a prize?
very cool & informative details... So, my method that i fell into accidentally way before i ever even heard of the oven off method is: Preheat oven & Baking Steel at 500F for 35-40 min. Place a thin walled 6" deep 2/3 size metal hotel pan in for a couple min while i score the cold dough (850g-1,100g) & spray it all over with water. Slide it (on paper) onto the steel & cover it with the pan like a Cloche, then turn OFF the oven. 12 min later turn the oven ON to 430F & continue to cook another 10-12 min before taking off the pan/cloche, and sliding a cookie cooling rack under the dough while removing the paper (prevents burning the bottom). Cook another 20-30 min to desired color. This is BY FAR the best oven spring & crust i have ever gotten and i have tried almost every option out there over the years.
@@thesourdoughjourney Haha, im pretty sure it existed well before i turned my oven off on accident a year ago, i just had not actually ever heard of it as a real method before i looked it up after that happened, LOL
Wow parchment paper!! I just baked a smaller loaf and was wondering what went wrong. The parchment paper was wrapped around the loaf and was pretty blonde around the edges and had to take it out bake on the rack for a few extra minutes. Thank you!!
Schrodinger's loaf: perhaps the sourdough both produces ovenspring and fails to produce ovenspring in the Dutch oven, until when the lid is removed, at which time the wave function collapses and the loaf has either risen or not.
Excellent information. I’ve been using a thin metal trivet inside my 7Qt. Dutch oven to eliminate burning on the bottom of my loaves. Am I losing some oven spring by not allowing the parchment paper to sit directly on the hot Dutch oven’s bottom?
I was thinking about heating my ductoven and the lid on the stove to get it hotter while the oven is on since it would take way longer for it to reach to the same temp of the oven
Not sure you shared the recipe? Did you follow Tartine by the book? I’ve been reading about longer times for autolyse flour and water before starting the bread process? Finally, I like using seed mix any thoughts on additional water and timing to add them?
Tartine, by the book. Always. You can add them any time. Usually after the second stretch and fold, I’d laminate them in, in lieu of the third stretch and fold.
Hey Cle boy from another S Euclid boy I I went to Costco and got 20 pounds of bread flour comes from Utah it’s made in Utah red wheat 16 bucks what a deal bill ptc ga
i like the idea of smaller parchment paper .then using larger piece to slide off into the dutch oven .. was huge help ..i start at 550 degrees .. for ten min ... then lower to 450 .. i find that the Flour i use is a Biggy .. different flour .. different results .. thank you for this video .. oh and yes letting loaf rest to room temp is a Must .. .
THIS STUDY THAT YOU DONE FOR THE TEMPERATURES USED TO BAKE BREAD WOULD BE MORE COMPLETE IF IT INDICATES WHAT AMOUNT (IN WEIGHT) OF RAW AND FERMENTED DOUGH THE BAKEING TIMES ARE APPLIED TO.
Another enlightening video, thanks for the content Tom. Quick question, what technique would you recommend to achieve a tighter, more closed crumb (an unpopular result, but one I’m looking to achieve as I like to butter/jam almost every slice of bread) without sacrificing hydration? I make a 77% hydration, 25% whole wheat/75% bread flour loaf as that seems to be the texture and flavor I like best. Would it boil down to a more aggressive pre-shape/shape to deflate the loaf more than usual?
Thanks. A few options. 1) ferment it longer. Check out Episode 4 of When is bulk fermentation done. 2) add some fat to your mix (olive oil or butter), blend in a lower protein flour. 4) De-gas when preshaping.
Tom - Does the Tartine method consider bulk fermentation to be from Salt until it gets shaped and thrown on counter/fridge? Or is it from when you start fermentolyse?
This has always been one of the most confusing aspects of Tartine. In the book, Chad Robertson does not count the 30-minute fermentolyse step in his bulk fermentation timing. Every other recipe and baker would start the clock on bulk fermentation at the time the starter meets the flour and water. So, in all of my videos, I assume bulk fermentation starts when the starter is added and it ends when you pre-shape the dough. (Note: the dough is still fermenting, it's just not "bulk" fermenting, because now you've divided the dough. That's what the "bulk" refers to, is "undivided dough.") The rest time on the counter before it goes into the fridge is kind of a no-mans land that I usually count as part of final proofing time.
Hi Tom, Thanks for doing this. Very interesting to see that the preheat impact on the third and fourth method. I think the point that should be made here is to check the temperature of your oven with an oven thermometer. Your oven actually reached its preheat temperature within the time that your oven let you know it was ready. My oven for some reason consistently is not at the desired oven temperature when the oven tells me it is. I’ve learned this by using a thermometer inside the oven. So when my oven beeps at 25 minutes it’s still under temp. My oven needs more like 40 minutes to get to 500 degrees. So I’m wondering if the bake methods that recommends the long preheat is to take the factor out that ovens reach temperature at different rates but that all should get there by an hour? Curious your thought on this. Also on the cold method, I’ve preheated my oven without the Dutch oven in it and then put my bread in that way and I get nice oven spring. Hoping maybe you could do an experiment with cold oven cold Dutch oven and preheated oven cold Dutch oven. Again I fear since my oven is slow to get to temp not preheating the oven would have an impact. Thanks Robin
Thanks. Yes, preheating time is more important that the oven thermostat reading. In this video, most of the temps I show are infrared thermometer tests of oven and Dutch oven temps, not the oven reading. I’ll try the cold Dutch oven in preheated oven.
Yes! I like the idea of a consistent process, such as fully preheated oven & room temp dutch oven. There'd still be variations in the dutch oven of course, a heavy one would warm more slowly. In Tom's experiment, for instance, I wondered if the small DO might cool off quicker while the bread's being added.
Question regarding final temperatures. How does high altitude affect target final temperatures? Since water boils at lower temperatures at lower atmospheric pressure, are the target final temperatures also lower?
I learned a lot, as usual. Glad I watched until the end! I have 2 different size DOs and use parchment paper. Some great info on those issues! Thanks for your dedication and thoroughness.
@@thesourdoughjourney Ha! Yes, that was meant as a compliment. Because of your thoroughness I now have two options to deal with my smaller DO. I can keep using slightly oversize parchment paper or put the smaller one in later during the preheat. That was a remarkable catch by you!
When I inserted my pH meter into the starter, it deflated a bit. I was going to report to you about Dr Heisenberg at work, then I saw that he joined your team. 🤣
What about put on top burner of your stove and heat your dutch oven before u put it in the oven ? To insure that you get a head start so your Dutch oven is ahead of time
The upfront mixing develops the gluten. The stretch and folds build layers and height in the dough. Both are still required, but you can be much more gentle with the stretch and folds if the dough is well developed in mixing.
Tom, you are just killing it man....I've improved my bread dramatically through my studies at the institute. The loafs I bake now, well...I think the cool kids would approve. If i didn't have two small children to feed Id send a pile of money. Your explorations and teaching are unmatched. You deserve to be sourdough famous, that's for sure.
I wonder if the difference in the shape of the pans made more of a difference, than the color....the ceramic coated Dutch oven is round, and the other is rectangular.
It is possible. The shape of the pan influences the radiant heat coming off the pan walls. But my intuition also tells me the color absolutely makes a difference. The dark pans run HOT!
You are the man! My first loaf was a brick. LOL! I’m doing the second loaf now. I reduced the to 425, Bake time will be longer. I didn’t have high expectations. I’ll eventually figure out my variables . You are so right in speaking about everyone’s equipment and loaf are different. It’s not a one size fits all. If nothing else, I’m having so much fun trying ! Thanks, Tom !
I have a 1958, Frigidaire, french door oven (in Sherwood Green) and I tried your 400 degree bake with the variation you suggested. Anyway, after 45 minutes with the lid on I looked at it and took it out after only ten minutes. I immediately stuck gage in it and it read 210. It's even a bit black on the bottom but otherwise ideal. I'm just shocked at quickly it baked
Wow, amazing details...thank you! you've answered so many of my questions. I am pretty new at sourdough, made my starter with Ken Forkish book. Now I am only using my freshly ground wheat berries from wheat Montana, protein is 8%. It's a heavy loaf and I am usually underproofed. I'm in north Idaho, pretty cool in my house. Been using a 4 qt Dutch Oven but will try a larger one. Also had trouble with too large of parchment paper. Been experimenting with hydration levels..very thirsty flour. Last one was 80%, will try 85% with large DO. I use the overnight retard......great flavor. Not getting much oven spring! Small crumb. Any suggestions for 100% whole wheat? Will try your lower temp. :)
Thank you. Whole wheat is challenging, and fresh-milled, even more so. I would try blending a fine-grind whole wheat (or even white whole wheat) from a local mill with 50% of your home milled wheat berries. Check out my video on experimenting with Bread Flours to learn more about how different types of flours work. But if you are trying 100% home-milled whole wheat you will end up with pretty dense loaves one way or another. The Perfect Loaf website has some recipes specifically formulated for higher percentages of whole wheat. Maybe check those out too and see what he is doing with hydration%.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you so much! I will definitely check out your video on Bread Flours and also The Perfect Loaf. I appreciate your honest opinion on 100% whole wheat. :) I thought so, but I will be happy with the best I can get with it. .......and you are right, it's a Journey!!
I believe it took less time to discover penicillin than completing this experiment. I hope you don't mind but one thing is bothering me. Did different temps (and resulting springs) affect taste at all? Very objective I know, but maybe you should cut back on the thermodynamics dept and hire a tasting committee? Thank you for the effort with this and all your videos.
Thanks. Baking methods have no impact on taste unless the crust bakes up much darker on certain loaves, but these were all in the same browning range. The texture of the crumb has a slightly different mouthfeel but no real difference in taste.
Tom...Do you not like the taste of barley or are a a wild yeast purest. On a related topic way not throw a 1/4 Teaspoon of quick rise yeast. It doesnt kill the wild yeast or does it. I mean its beautiful thing to ride and have a relationship with a horse but if i had to take my wife to the hospital i would take the car. Why not take advantage of a modern technology. Are you anti progress? Again i love everything you teach. just asking
I am a sourdough purist. Adding commercial yeast definitely works, and there is no harm in using it. But I am all about learning and teaching the skills of pure sourdough without the assistance of commercial yeast. Many sourdough bakers are deeply committed to only using sourdough, and that is my philosophy and my target audience. The flavor and texture also changes when you add commercial yeast. I can taste it with 90% accuracy in a blind taste test. Lastly, the long, slow fermentation that comes with wild yeast fermentation is what breaks down the gluten and makes the bread more easily digestible. That is another reason some people do not use commercial yeast. It diminishes some of the nutritional benefits by rushing the process.
i respect your position and your bread making abilities ...but think about it, its a bit fanatical, cult like .wild yeast just just an old technology. But i should shut up. I HAVE YOU TO THANK FOR FINALLY LEARNING HOW TO GET AN OPEN CRUMB. Thanks again for all the many hours you put in and for sharing it with all of us.
Oven on/off methods, various types.....these are really hard to quantify because different ovens do vastly different things. ESPECIALLY electric vs gas with the different venting systems. But also because of kitchen temperature variables and how that interacts with the oven's thermostat. A hot kitchen that's been cooking all day will draw less heat away from an oven so the thermostat in the oven will cycle less. And, an oven thermostat varies widely, especially in contrast to say....a house thermostat. A house thermostat will click the heat on when it drops a degree or two (depending on thermostat and how it's internally set based on a house's insulation abilities). And this is different with an oven, where some ovens may work in 20 degree windows or more. It would be VERY hard to test these types of methods. I do think the "starting with cold oven" method" is a worthy candidate, which I first heard from youtuber Ben Starr. This method provides very serious benefits in time and energy saving for a busy person, or a very money conscious person....practical benefits.
I agree. The “oven off” method was kind of a fad last year that has now come and gone. I believe the cold-start method was popularized by Elaine Boddy. I’ve seen B. Starr use it in his most recent video. I find, if you are baking one loaf, it only saves about 5 minutes of oven time.
Electric prices have gotten ridiculous. I think the most cost effective thing I can do is bake 2 loaves at once. Need another combo-cooker/dutch oven. Freezing is a no brainer as it's very easy to refresh a frozen loaf to nearly just as good as fresh baked. I keep my cooked loaf in the fridge after 1/2 day, and toaster oven slices as needed, so I don't need to put the oven on to work a frozen loaf. @@thesourdoughjourney
Wow. Great content here, thanks for such thorough documentation of your methods! On loaf five, looking at the crumb, it seemed to me that there were sections (particularly at the bottom) where the crumb was notably more dense than the prior loaves (although it's a bit hard to tell from the images in the video). It seems like the low internal temperature may also be the cause of this...
Great set of experiments. Like your temperature writeups. In the list of necessary elements for success in spring, I was surprised that you did not mention a well-fed active starter.
Fantastic experiment Tom, love your dry sense of humor, I was a little disappointed that your brother was not one of the new lab employees. One question, how come you didn't do the cold oven cook first followed by the low temp cook, wouldn't that have saved some time?
Thanks. Good catch. I actually baked #2 before #1 but had already set up that sequence earlier in the recording and thought it would confuse people to bake them out of order! I’ll figure out some way for my brother to make another cameo appearance.
@thesourdoughjourney may I ask why, since the autolyse has just the flour and water. There would be no fermentation happening. Or is there a deeper reason? And I appreciate your answers. I'm 1month and 1 week into my journey and finally made 2 successful loaves after 35 lbs of flour waste!
