Great info. Took the temp of my dough during bulk fermentation- zero guesswork as to when it was finished. I baked two of the best loaves of whole grain sourdough bread I have ever made! Oven Spring was amazing! Been baking >65 years. Color me happy! Thank you so very much!
@@emzoneill6735 Hi. Sorry I don’t recall. This was 3 weeks ago. But, my starter is 95-100 % hydration, and usually use about 100g. Also I use fresh milled flour. HTHs
Can’t thank you enough! As someone who utilizes evidence based practice in healthcare I have been SO frustrated by the magnitude of nonspecific information regarding fermentation. Every baker seems to “measure with their heart”. But there’s no way to create consistent results this way without having extensive experiential knowledge that a beginner would not have. My first loaf was beginners luck. As soon as my kitchen started warming up this spring I was making overproofed after overproofed dough. Can’t wait to try again!
OMG, this is such a gamechanger. Your simple chart provides so much clarity. Your video and this information really removes the mystery and frustration about bulk fermentation and for the first time, I feel confident my next loaf will be perfectly proofed. At last!!!
I had so many a-ha moments watching this! Even though I have heard you explain this before, there was something in the way you explained it that just made sense to me! I will be watching and studying this over and over. Thank you for your work involved in putting this together 🥰
Tom, because of the difficulty of measuring rise % in an irregular shaped vessel, I put a dough sample in a 1/2"-3/4' diameter prescription bottle, mark and place next to the mother load. I can then easily see the exact % of rise. I add it back when it has completed its job.. BTW, I love the scientific dimension you add to the video's. Your thoughts?
Today I used the 2 step method of temp & % rise. I baked the best looking loaf I ever baked. Great oven spring in a clay pot with a lid, even got my 1st ear. However the inside was gummy, yes, I let it cool before slicing, what did I do wrong. Cold retard 12 hours, temp was 38 deg f
FINALLY! Someone who gets it! Thank you so much for this and all of your other informative videos from the first. You have combined the mind and talents of a science teacher with the enthusiasm and creativity of an artisan baker. You should be very proud. Yours seems to be the only no-nonsense sourdough channel out there! Keep it up and Thanks again! Your friend in sourdough from CT, Dawn Ciarleglio.
Your videos and information has helped me a great deal over this last year! Thank you. Would love for you to do a video on bulk fermentation doing a different type of loaf. Like a sandwich bread when adding in things like butter/oil, sugar/honey, maybe an egg. And how those ingredients affect bulk fermentation time.
These charts are based on 90% bread flour and 10% whole wheat flour. Using different flours may produce different results, but once you dial them in for a specific flour/recipe, it repeats every time. But if a bread flour recipe works perfectly at 50% rise, a whole wheat recipe may require a 40% rise. Whole grain flours ferment faster and keep fermenting quickly after bulk fermentation, so they usually require an earlier cutoff.
Hi Tom. I recently saw a video where the baker takes off a ball of dough after the final strengthening fold, and puts it in a container of room temperature water. He said when the ball floats, that is a good time to cut off bulk fermentation and start the cold retard. Have you ever heard of this and/or looked into it? If it works, it would make things incredibly simple!
Yes, that is a method popularized by Chad Robertson at Tartine. It works sometimes but not all the time. And it works best for a specific type of recipe. It also works best on multi-loaf batches especially if you need to do the test multiple times.
I've deleted my post and will try to be clearer. Your garbled response had gone too. I did you a favour with that. I do not mean to offend, but this video is so far off bread baking reality that I feel I must say something. I shall be polite, but blunt. This misinformed video deserves that. Your idea is only effective at all, as long as the same flour that you use, is used by the baker. As soon as any ingredients are added which give a weaker dough, or a flour is used with lower gluten levels the model falls apart. Different bulk fermentation temperatures do not govern the amount of dough volume achieved, but only how quickly it is achieved. Doughs with stronger gluten can achieve a greater volume and remain stable, than those with weaker gluten. To add to this it is with astonishing hubris that you brag about your false discovery and how great you are. Who am I to say this idea is false? Every well read or trained baker stands with this POV. Bread has been researched in every fine detail in everyway imaginable. There is plenty of room to experiment with baking, but after a few thousand years and hundreds of million of $ being spent on research the basic principles of bread baking are very well established. Yet here are you, re-inventing the wheel as a square one. If you had done even one brief search on bulk fermentation you would not have made a video as if about tyre pressures when considering how to tune a combustion engine. Bulk fermentation is the most important stage of dough development. It has three core functions. The most important one being full gluten development. As the gluten develops the dough elasticity increases. There comes a point of maximum gluten development. The elasticity increase then plateaus. This is when bulk fermentation should be stopped. _It is nothing to do with dough volume_ Further bulk fermentation after this point allows other processes to erode the gluten structure and its strength. Fortunately the time window is fairly large and so bakers have quite a bit of leeway. The baker needs to get the feel of the dough as it bulk ferments and gauge the progress. Volume is not a consideration unless the baker has learned about that specific dough mix. I could point you to a number of technical articles where this has been explored in bread laboratories to the n’th degree. However I did one quick search and came up with a half decent article on the King Arthur’s website. It covers what I have said above and a little more. The foolishness of your videoand your disrespect to your viwers is that you did not do even basic search before setting off on this braggart’s project. Also, I am shocked that you appear to know so little about the principles of the most important step in bread making. Yet, you stand there claiming the authority of empirical research in your mockery of an institute whilst misleading sincere home bakers who are trying to learn. It is that last point which has angered me and which has motivated me to post this. I would say to your viewers, go and check the King Arthur article on this. If I were petty I would go through each of your videos debunking them. However I would rather spend my time tutoring bread baking students and home bakers.
This is from the King Arthur article… “At the end of bulk fermentation, I look for a dough that's ‘risen significantly’ and is much smoother than when bulk started.” I am simply trying to quantify what “risen significantly” means for new bakers. This is not that complicated. If you read my guide accompanying the video, it clearly says that the guidance only works for the exact same recipe I am using, and it provides instructions for how individual bakers need to “calibrate” the results for their own conditions. I have created a simple tool to help new bakers get their initial baking “in the ballpark” of full proofing, then use other tools to develop the skill and craft to determine how to perfect it. There is clearly a correlation between the volume of dough rising and full dough fermentation. I am using that correlation as a starting point. Is it a weak correlation? Perhaps. But it is better than many of the tools and methods home bakers are using. It may be more effective if you provide feedback to all the “professional” and celebrity bakers telling new bakers to “wait until the dough doubles” is bulk fermentation. I can provide you with a list of links and videos to influential bakers with millions of views telling bakers to “let their dough double.” If you’re looking for people spreading bad information about bread baking, I suggest you start there. After you convince all of them to do research and correct their misguided instruction, come back and let me know and I’ll gladly remove this video. In some bizarre way I am actually agreeing with you. There is massive amount of information out there telling people that bulk fermentation should be cut off “when the dough doubles” (which you clearly would say is horribly bad advice). I’ve created a “less worse” method to help cut through that noise. I didn’t create this problem. I’m trying to fix it. If you’re looking for hubris and bad advice, I’d suggest starting here. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-e30Z1ijnWfM.htmlsi=eQ8vgOG5vSKMpaDL
@@thesourdoughjourney You grasp at one straw in the KA article and ignore the main thrust. I am not looking for bad bread You Tubers. I have a life. Your channel caught my eye which is why I watched some of it. If you want a comeback on you post, please re-read my post above. I regard criticising someone as both very serious and unpleasant. I took a great deal of care with my post. Personally I think there are two things you could do to improve your channel. 1) Learn the basic principles of bread making. Everything is founded on those. 2) Use your excellent techie skill to demonstrate them . Though, I recognise that is unsought advice. I am sure you are trying to 'fix' this problem. The problem is mainly on You Tube. However with your often poor grasp of the basic principles, you can only make matters worse. Please read a little more and become one of the helpful You Tubers. It's your floor. I have left.
Worked great for me! Have only been on my ‘sourdough craze’ since the beginning of Feb 2024 when I decided to create a sourdough starter. I’m hooked! But it has been cold here and was wondering how the dough will respond when our hot summers get here. Had a blazing fire going and thought I’d experiment with bulk fermentation times while the room was at a warmer temp. Dough temperature was 76 degrees and I followed the chart for bulk fermentation. The dough ended up being a whole different consistency, frankly I was concerned as to how the bread would turn out. It ended up with a spectacular ear, and a perfect crumb! Am so pleased, thank you!
So. if you bake smaller loaves then you can/should allow for more rise before ritard because the dough will cool faster and therefore ferment less in the fridge.
Correct. This assumes the cold retard in the fridge. You still need to final proof the dough after shaping. I’d push the bulk rise about 10-20% more before shaping, then after shaping, use the “poke test” to determine when to bake.
wow the javelin demo was incredible - thank you for your confidence, patience, and belief in all of us out here trying to understand what the heck we're doing - you're a HUGE help and a wonderful teacher!!
Thank you so much. I appreciate the feedback. It took me two years to come up with an analogy that really worked. I had a very complicated hot air balloon analogy too. Glad I didn’t need to use that one. 🥸
haha i'm an analogy junkie too - when you come up with a good one, it's a great feeling - the santa-mobile is good and funny too :) @@thesourdoughjourney
It’s good to know your dough temp all the time. I check it after mixing all ingredients, then after stretch and folds. At that point you can begin to estimate what your target rise should be based on the temp after stretch and folds. But if your room temp is higher or lower than your dough temp, the dough will eventually equalize to room temp. If the dough temp changes after stretch and folds, you want to adjust your target rise based on the “ending” dough temp. It is uncommon for it to change a lot, but it can happen.
How does this carry over to other reciepes like bagels or sandwhich loaves where I don't have to do a cold retard? If a dough is reading 80 and I gotta let it go til 30% ideally how long will that take the dough roughly. 2 hours 6? My reciepe calls for me to leave on the counter for 10 hours but it's been over fermenting
You need to push the initial bulk rise a bit more (maybe 25% more rise at each temp, rough estimate). Then let it rise at room temp and do the “poke test.”
good I know, but I don't like the explanation , "warm dough we need to cut off earlier because it keeps fermenting..." why? because this assumes that you live in a place where most of the time its warm, and your dough will be "warmer" than normal... for me its the opposite, I live in Ireland.. most of the year its freaking cold here 19-20c in my kitchen (when I heat in winter, but summer also sometimes 18c ... we have a few week "hot" when it maybe goes up to 22-24c) so for me it would be... "cold dough we need to ferment longer because, it is colder, so it will ferment slower after shaping, etc..." I know it is logical, it can be just confusing, my problem is not that my dough is too warm, I think I got flat (pancake) breads because I learnt the recipe "bulk ferment till 50% rise" but in my case maybe I need to do 75% or 100% when my kitchen (and also my dough) was around 20c
Instead of pouring water in the container and making so many markings I was wondering can you use a scale and pour water until you get the number you need? Pour water for 750 ml for the dough at the beginning and then pour how much you calculated for dough temp?
I understand your flour x 1.5 to get starting volume, but IF my recipe is 50g starter, 350g water and 500g flour, 10 g salt, wouldn't that added up get my starting volume of 910g? if I go with just the 500 x 1.5 method, won't I be off by a little over 150g? also, looking at the cambro containers you recommended, non have ml markings on them... how to. you mark your % rise with these?
The volume is different than the weight. Your calculation is correct in grams, it the milliliter measurement is volume. So, unless you are only measure water (where ml = g), the mixed volume will always be higher than the grams weight. In my experience, for a “standard” recipe as you describe, the mixed volume in milliliter will be very close to 1.5x the flour weight. You are using less starter (50g) and and less water (25g) so your starting volume may be slightly less (~1,450 ml) but I offer the 1.5x method as a shorthand, simplified method. If your recipe differs, mix the ingredients, level in a measuring vessel and use that as your starting volume.
Hello Tom, First of all, thank you for all the information you share! Perhaps this question has been asked before (it’s nearly impossible to read through all the comments) but I’m wondering if the desired percentage rise is also influenced by other things like hydration and the type of flour, the protein content and the W value of the flour? Thanks in advance for your reaction.
Yes, small differences. High protein bread flour will “ show the rise” and stand a bit taller. I usually add 10% to the target when using those flours. Whole wheat will sit a little flatter. Higher hydration also sits a little flatter. But these are all very small adjustments.
I am a long ferment baker. This chart isn't working for me because I keep my dough in the fridge for 36-72 hours. What is the adjustment that needs to be made for a longer cold retard? Or perhaps Tom will build us long bakers a chart for 48 hours and 72 hours :). The other question is my challah bread. Love the eggs, sugar and oil in my bread! Perhaps Tom can build us a chart for these richer doughs?
The chart is more of a “method” than a scientific certainty. It is based on a popular lean recipe and a 12-24 hour cold retard. If you cold retard longer, you would go for a lower percentage rise in the bulk fermentation. Move down in 10% increments (I’d start with roughly 10% less for each additional 24 hours in fridge) until you find the sweet spot. Once you find it for a recipe and temperature, it does not change.
Love your content - quick question: How would the time/temp scale be impacted by machine mixing to a more medium gluten development? Most of us are probably only getting low gluten development with our hand mixing. Since I've moved to a spiral mixer, I've been struggling a bit with bulk fermentation where I was not previously. Larger batches are needed now so the hand mixing needs to evolve to spiral mixer batches. Ideas?
I don’t believe the mixing method would impact the % rise. Especially if you do it consistent. Perhaps your mixing is warming up the dough? Do you take the temp after mixing? It’s also possible to over mix with a machine mixer.
Tom can you please clarify the “starting point” for establishing target rise. In your video you use a rule of thumb of 1.5 which you multiply by the flour amount. My recipe uses 600 grams of flour which gives an estimated starting point of 900grams or ml. However I measured the actual starting point of 1200 grams and that is significantly different from the 1.5 rule of thumb. Can you clarify for me please
1.5 times the flour weight in grams give you the ML (volume) starting point. The gram weight is the sum of the weight of the ingredients. Unrelated to the volume. It’s a little confusing because I’m using grams to derive milliliters. That’s why I call it an approximate rule of thumb.
For so long I've been guessing at what variables to change based on instructions from books and videos on WHAT to do but not WHY to do it. Such a relief to find someone who so clearly explains why things work the way they do. Loved the santa low-rider analogy too. Hilarious
When you first find out your starting volume, when you put the first piece of tape with 750ml, how did you find that mark? Where the edge of the dough was on the bowl?
If the dough is domed, you want to flatten it or imagine if it were level. Once you know that starting point for a recipe, it is always the same. So get a good measurement one time and make a note of it.
How does lowering the hydration affect these times? I’m new to sourdough and I have found living in the tropics where it is very humid I have to lower hydration. Or is it that I was just bulk fermenting wrong?
Theoretically higher hydration dough will ferment faster, but I’ve not really observed that. Humidity is a factor because your dough temperature will equalize with your room temperature much more quickly in a humid environment. But in the end, it is always just about the dough temperature. The dough is 75% hydration or higher so it doesn’t “feel” the humidity and ferment faster, it ferments based on the dough temperature.
I hear A wisper from Sarah Lou ..She hits me about" the topic you rarly talk about... Flavour".Is it so that Long and cold fermentation makes the bread more Sour /tang..She only puts it in the fridge for 2 hours ...ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-fMaFpO_CRiM.html This is a real topic !
Thanks, Tom. You have been explicit in that this will work repeatedly for the same dough formula. How do you think volume of bread made impacts this? Certainly, more mass will take longer to cool in the refrigerator, other thoughts?
If you out 10 or more loaves in the fridge, for example, it will raise the temp in the fridge and take longer for all the loaves to get down to fridge temp. Some people also see seasonal differences in their fridge temp. Everyone needs to make small adjustments to dial it in for your circumstances, but it will then be very repeatable.
You mention in this vid 2 vessels 1) one vessel to do your stretch and folds and coil folds and 2) one vessel that has been calibrated to measure the %percentage% of rise... You don't mention... How many stretch and coil folds need to been done before putting into the final vessel for the final rise determined by the temperature of the dough... can you point me to the video that covers this info... GREAT STUFF!! THANKS!!
Thanks! The “standard” number of stretch and folds in the Tartine Country Bread recipe (which is what I often follow) is 4 or 5 rounds with 30 minute rests. Some people also do a combination of stretch and folds and “coil folds.” I go through all those details in depth in this series. Tartine Bread : The Art and Alchemy - Part 1 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-CqN4iYBoqdo.html
Great videos and science behind it all to back up and explain it all. Living in the uk we are a lot cooler so more like 21 C so starter activity test ( circa 4 hrs at 27 c I think it was) is more difficult to judge. Very less rise in this test at 21c.
Thanks. At 21C (or lower) there is little risk of overproofing. You can easily push it from 75-100% rise. I love that dough temperature. Very forgiving and makes great bread.
Wrapping up, we control the rising and the dough temperature at the same time? What if a dough reaches 80 F but not the target volume? It happened to me. I was waiting to see my dough with lots of air, bubbles, curve on the sides and double in volume to end bulk, but it didn’t happened. I cold proofed for 12 hours, i got a gummy crumb bread kind of pale, no ear.
It’s best to maintain a target dough temp throughout. If you plan to bulk ferment at 80F, try to mix the dough at that temp right from the start (use 90F water for example). If the dough temp changes during the process, use the ending dough temp to sync up the target rise. But it’s less predictable if the temp changes a lot during the process. If your dough didn’t hit the target rise you should wait until it does. Unless it really appears to stall out. If that happens it’s almost always due to a weak starter.
I do not use Einkorn. It is a little tricky to work with. But the principles still apply. If you keep records of your temperature and percentage rise, you should be able to dial in the proofing in 3-5 bakes. Once you get it dialed in, it should be repeatable.
I"m from Brazil and it's kinda cold today around here, so I let my dough BF'ing inside my oven with 2 lamps on... It got too hot inside it, and I just took my doug outside, measured it's temp and it's in 28ºC, with a percent rise of about 25%. The dough is now preshaped, just waiting do be shape and then to go to sleep inside my fridge. Let's just hope for the best.
What if I’m putting around 30 loaves of sourdough in a fridge. Will it take longer for these loaves to reach 41 degrees. Do I need to cut time off of bulk fermentation to compensate?
It’s impossible to say, but your instincts are correct. By loading that much warm dough in the fridge at one time, it could take longer to reach the target temp, but some refrigerators are pretty powerful and can rapidly adjust for warm temperature swings. I’d probably take the dough temp in the fridge periodically and if it doesn’t get down to 50F in about 7 hours, I’d assume it my take longer to get down to 41 so Ild pull the loaves earlier. Then in the future, cut back on bulk fermentation slightly to adjust. Once you get it dialed in, it should be highly repeatable.
It applies to sourdough only. And generally works with any dough and any amount of starter/preferment. Significantly higher or lower hydration may not “show the rise” the same ways as this baseline recipe with is based on 75% hydration.
They actually build height, but if you do them consistently and adjust your percentage rise, you can repeat it every time. If I did a 30% rise with no stretch and folds, I’d probably look for a 40% rise with stretch and folds. The aliquot method is the same principle, but unless you keep the temperature of the aliquot the exact same as the main dough, it will rise differently. Lots of people struggle with that. I just prefer to measure the main dough, and once you get a recipe dialed in, it works the same every time.
If I use a smaller percent of starter, I realize my BF time will be longer, but am I correct in thinking I can still follow your chart as long as the percent rise and temperature are consistent when I retard. Also, will it work roughly the same if I adjust the hydration?
I usually make 4 loaves at a time. Is it possible to separate 1 loaf worth of dough and put it in the measuring vessel for bulk fermentation, or will I need 4 batter bowls (I already have one so would need to get three more).
Yes, i do that all the time using one batch as my measuring sample. Make sure the dough temperatures stay consistent between the batches, or you’ll get differing results.
It’s very tricky, but there is one way to do it. It’s described here. You need to keep the dough very warm (80F/27C) for about 3 hours before moving it to the fridge. But this method works. NEW!: Sourdough BREAKTHROUGH: Two-Stage Bulk Fermentation - For Busy People ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-DDOfIAgyCy8.html
No. The dough will become less sticky as you do more stretch and folds, but it has nothing to do with the end of bulk fermentation. That guidance is wrong as misleading. I can make perfectly proofed dough with no stretch and folds that is impossibly sticky, but perfectly proofed.
Yes. Mid the dough using warm water so your initial dough temp is 80F. Then keep the dough at that temperature. Many people use a proof box, or sometimes your oven with the light on will work (assuming your kitchen is not that warm).
The video explains how. The times begin when you add the starter. The temperature is important throughout the process. The ending temperature is most important for determining the final percentage rise.
Check out this method. Better for warm kitchens. NEW!: Sourdough BREAKTHROUGH: Two-Stage Bulk Fermentation - For Busy People ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-DDOfIAgyCy8.html
THANKS!!! After multiple fails with recipes that called for a 100% bulk fermentation rise, I finally got my loaves to rise by stopping at 75% or less. Thanks for explaining how it works.
@@annabruzzese7300According to the chart (shown at 4:45): "Bulk fermentation begins when starter is added," so unless your dough temperature is changing wildly between the mix and your last stretch and fold, that's when to take the temperature for this guide. Also see 31:30 of the video. This is from the article on the website: Is the target bulk fermentation temperature the “ending temperature?” No. It is the average (and ending) temperature. Bulk fermenting your dough is not like cooking a steak where you are trying to raise the temperature to a desired end point. Bulk fermentation works best if you can maintain your target temperature throughout bulk fermentation. Use tools such as a desired dough temperature calculator and a proofing chamber to maintain a constant dough temperature throughout bulk fermentation. Temperature fluctuations during bulk fermentation can result in uneven dough fermentation with some parts of the dough fermenting faster or slower than others. The appropriate target percentage rise is more influenced by the ending dough temperature because that temperature influences the fermentation in the downstream steps. Bulk fermentation times generally are driven by the average dough temperature during bulk fermentation.
Hmmmm… ok.. Question….. I wish to make sourdough baguettes…. Therefore does this not completely mess up calculations? I’m kind of thinking it does . Regards KCB.🤔
@@thesourdoughjourney I’ll experiment .. Test number 1. I’ll try a 80% rise at 80 Fahrenheit (bulk fermentation) divide and pre-shape. Refrigerate for one hour Final shape and rest for one hour /cut. Hot bake 420 Fahrenheit .. 16 to 20 minutes..(not forgetting to spray with a little water whilst introducing to oven) I’ll update you … 🇬🇧👍 Regards KCB.
This video is PRICELESS! You have a gift, Tom. Much appreciated!! 🙌🏽👏🏽 Wish I had this when I first started but, this just validates I understand the process correctly. Thank you!
what is the max amount of time you'd guess you could cold proof without over fermenting if your dough was at 75 and cut bulk fermentation at 50%? Could it last 3 days?
3 days is about the max. You’ll lose some height and it will become more sour. Every fridge is different so I can’t say for certain. Try 1 day, 2 days, then 3 days and see how the three loaves look. It should be repeatable once you figure it out.
I’m confused on what he means by the volume of the dough? Does that mean the weight of the starting dough? I understand multiplying the starting volume and target percentage weight, but how did he find the line that is the target percent rise on the vessel? I wish he would have shown that for those of us who are not strong math/science people . 😅
This guide explains it better than I can do here. thesourdoughjourney.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/The-The-SECRET-of-Bulk-Fermentation-Measuring-Dough-Temperature-and-Percentage-Rise.pdf If you have other questions, email me at thesourdoughjourney@yahoo.com
What if my dough already since the start, due to our tropical weather hot and humid, is constantly above 27C? Even lower than 30% rise? Like 10%? If one does not have a/c or fridge, do you think it's not suitable for us to make this kind of long fermentation bread?
@@thesourdoughjourney thanks for your answer. I'll try again, been trying so many times, I got underproof gummy crumbs mostly and overproof maybe once or twice...
Another outstanding video! You've covered all the variables, and answered every question that came to mind while watching. Your analogies are excellent illustrations. I might just finally get the whole bulk fermentation thing down! Thank you for being the scientist on our behalf!
A question: How do you adjust the guidance if everything is same (20% starter, 2% salt) except that you make 70% hydration. It's very hard to find good flour for 75%, best I can find here is a 12g/100g protein strong white flour.
@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you for coming back to me. I just wondered lwhat volume increase should I expect in the final fridge proof before bake - 30% ; 50%; 75% or 100%
I kept seeing this chart come up on all the Facebook groups and they didn't quite understand it. I knew absolutely nothing about sourdough or how it rose or how it was different from regular yeasted breads. Now I know! It's been a couple of months so I'm definitely going to try this! I really think lack of oven spring is related to over fermentation. Thank you so much. Funny thing is my kitchen isn't even on here.. in the winter it's about 62° on average lol
At temps that cool, sometimes the dough will ferment but will not “show the rise.” Here’s my study on that topic. thesourdoughjourney.com/experiment-24-hour-bulk-fermentation-using-a-cold-proofer/
Yes. Sometimes I’ll take off one loaf worth of dough and measure that one in a separate vessel, then use that as a proxy for the whole batch. But make sure the temperature is the same between the two.
With inclusions, you need to wait until all the inclusions are added to mark the starting line. Some people add them on the second stretch and fold, for example. I don’t believe it would change with enriched dough. That dough will sometimes rise faster or slower, but we ignore the time here.
Does this work by taking a SMALL amount of your dough and putting it into a smaller measuring vessel and watching that one while the rest of the dough is in a different vessel for bulk baking ? So Instead of taking all the dough, just using a small amount of it?
That method is less reliable unless you can keep that sample at the exact same temperature as the main dough. It is the same concept, but a less reliable method, in my experience.
Thank you, I’m just trying to see how this would work when baking 12-15 loaves at a time. I think I’ll give it a shot and make sure to check the temperature of both doughs and keep them close to each other. I can’t imagine the temp would vary too greatly.
If you’re making that much dough, I’d put one loaf worth of dough in a separate measuring vessel, and keep the dough temps the same. The temp,will stay much more stable with a full batch of dough versus a very small sample.
You do have some control over fermentation after cutting off bulk. You can choose how long to bench rest and whether and for how long to let the dough rest after final shaping before placing it in the refrigerator.
This is probably dumb and you probably answered this, but the hours on your chart do they start when you mix the starter or after stretch and folds when you sit it on your counter?
You can ferment at 14C. It takes about 24 hours. thesourdoughjourney.com/experiment-24-hour-bulk-fermentation-using-a-cold-proofer/ You can also final proof at room temp. Use the “poke test” to determine when to bake. www.theperfectloaf.com/how-to-use-the-dough-poke-test/
@@thesourdoughjourney generally its as low as 14 and as high as 18 and i left my dough last night at 11:00pm after stretch and folds and woke up at about 7am (so like 8h) and it had more than doubled in size, should i have left it more ?
If the dough temp is 18C it can go a bit past double in volume. Go by the rise, not the time. Your starter or flour may ferment faster than mine. But the % rise does not lie. And as the dough temperature gets close to 14C, you can go as high as 150% rise. It’s difficult to overproof at those temps. Also measure your dough temp with a thermometer. The dough temp doesn’t change as quickly as the room temp.
After 4 months of trying to make sourdough bread, temping the dough and following this chart finally worked for me!!! In this 4 month process, I even bought a bread proofer, which actually made my bread worse. Turned out my dough was very warm and I was overproofing my bread. Once I cut off the bulk fermentation at about 3 hrs 45 minutes, my sourdough bread is perfect…..the bread of my dreams.
8-12 hours would be for 70F. So 68F would be more like 11-14 hours. But the timing is just approximate. Use the percentage rise. At 68F it should be about 85% rise. Once you get below 70F you can overshoot the target rise without much risk of overproofing.
I’ve been using this method for a while and occasionally I will test the “1.5 x flour” method by also dumping the dough into the vessel and comparing results. It’s nearly identical every time. Until today! My recipe is 1000g of flours at 75% hydration, 20% starter and 2% salt. Starting volume should be 1500ml. But it was actually 1265ml when I dumped the actual dough into the vessel. Any reason there could be this much discrepancy, or did I mess up somewhere?
Instead of 800g of Bob’s Artisan Bread Flour, I used 780g of Bob’s AP flour plus 30g of Bob’s VWG, and my usual 200g of Bob’s whole wheat. The starter was a mix of bread flour and some rye, which is also usual for me. So the only difference was AP flour plus the extra gluten.
Just looked at the nutrient label. The bread flour is 36g per 1/4 cup. The AP is 34g per 1/4 cup. So if anything, the AP would mix up to more volume. I will do this test again sometime and see what happens. Thanks!
Every 30 minutes. But the most important temperature for applying the target percentage rise is the ending temperature as it is finishing bulk fermentation. I think I discuss this in the video.
