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Niels Gregersen - Is the World Self-Organizing? 

Closer To Truth
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Are the laws of nature or physics blind in that they seek no direction and have no ‘purpose’? That’s the scientific paradigm. But the world works so well: from a very simple beginning, complexities and beauties have emerged. Some say that there are deep ‘organizing principles’ in the laws of nature such that complexities are natural and expected outcomes.
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Niels Henrik Gregersen is a professor in the faculty of theology at the University of Copenhagen. At Aarhus University he was Assistant Professor in Ethics and Philosophy of Religion, Associate Professor in Systematic Theology, and Research Professor in Theology & Science.
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Closer To Truth, hosted by Robert Lawrence Kuhn and directed by Peter Getzels, presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.

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13 май 2024

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Комментарии : 72   
@sven888
@sven888 16 дней назад
I cannot even organize the glove compartment in my car.
@JagadguruSvamiVegananda
@JagadguruSvamiVegananda 16 дней назад
Nor can you compose a simple sentence with proper syntax. 😅
@sven888
@sven888 16 дней назад
@@JagadguruSvamiVegananda Maybe you should change your name from Guru to Jackass. It suits you better.
@GA-Vic
@GA-Vic 11 дней назад
You can but you choose not to,it's much easier that way. Choosing not to decide or to not make a conscious decision about something is commonly known as: being non committal or indecisive about "it", which in turn stems from being irresponsible and adopting the "victim mentality".That isn't necessarily a negative thing,it's just a defense mechanism, hopefully we will transcend this dualistic world down here someday!🙄
@sven888
@sven888 11 дней назад
@@GA-Vic I think we are one. But.... Genesis 2:18.
@GA-Vic
@GA-Vic 11 дней назад
@@sven888 Yes, ultimately.I agree with your sense of unity. This is a dualistic world that we are immersed in,down here, temporarily, to learn from of course. We are one in spirit but divided into separate bodily vessels- as individuals. The pieces of the shattered vase will come back together sooner or later (so to speak!)😒
@jamesruscheinski8602
@jamesruscheinski8602 17 дней назад
might laws and constants of physical nature come from causation, time more than space?
@sven888
@sven888 16 дней назад
Cheers brother.
@sven888
@sven888 10 дней назад
Causation is the Initial Singularity... (God)
@bschmidt1
@bschmidt1 16 дней назад
Yes in a Conway's Game of Life kinda way
@obiwanduglobi6359
@obiwanduglobi6359 15 дней назад
When I want to learn about how to cook, I ask a cook. When I want to learn about the cosmos, I ask a cosmologist. Neither a theologist nor a philosopher.
@arthurwieczorek4894
@arthurwieczorek4894 17 дней назад
1:12. He is arguing for a deistic definition of God here, not a theistic definition. In my opinion most believers wouldn't think of a deistic God as the God they have in mind.
@sven888
@sven888 16 дней назад
That could be so.
@heresa_notion_6831
@heresa_notion_6831 17 дней назад
Rube-Goldberg machines of our complexity don't happen by accident. The key issue, dicriminating what I understand as theism vs. atheism, is whether a prior sentience was needed to get there. But even if no prior sentience was required (e.g., naturalism assumes this, imo), undoubtedly the universe "cares" for us in the sense of providing the causal infrastructure to get there. If atheism is true, in the sense of no prior sentience, a functional sense of "caring" doesn't require a functional sense of "sentience". Weird, huh?
@simonhibbs887
@simonhibbs887 17 дней назад
Perceiving that the universe ‘cares’ for us is just survivorship bias. Did the universe care for the majority of the dinosaurs? For half the population of Europe and much of Asia during the bubonic plague? For the inhabitants of Pompeii? Do you really believe the fact that those people died and never had descendants, and that your ancestors survived and did, was because the universe cared? Just look at child mortality levels in low tech tribal societies. Only a small fraction of the humans who have ever lived even survived to adulthood, let alone had descendants at all, let alone still have ones that are alive today. Human history is a long continuous massacre of the innocents perpetrated by nature, and occasionally us. Evolution is brutal and bloody. So much for the universe caring.
@arthurwieczorek4894
@arthurwieczorek4894 17 дней назад
This is 'sentience' as hypostatiation. This is mind without brain, let alone body or ecosystem or origin. What is weird is how you stretch the meaning of 'caring' to try to make your point, in this world of disease and a predator--prey relationship.
@sven888
@sven888 16 дней назад
I agree.
@heresa_notion_6831
@heresa_notion_6831 16 дней назад
I was not advocating an omni/agent view of God; just discriminating the difference between atheism and theism, as I understand it. I don't think you can rule out "caring" from either viewpoint, because the universe does things, at least in the sense of a blind tropism, to "organize" matter/energy/information. Disease and predator-prey relationships are not the only kinds of relationships possible or existent, although they do seem to figure into the universal algorithm for "self-organization". Humanity has the ability to lift itself out of the process of (normal) evolution and avoid the fate of the dinosaurs, if they want to. This is a tightrope walk, but at least we're given a tightrope. Finally, it's foolish to think of the "problem of evil" as somebody elses problem, and the fact we're given the means to solve it (at times) is something one could have faith in.
@simonhibbs887
@simonhibbs887 16 дней назад
@@heresa_notion_6831 >I don't think you can rule out "caring" from either viewpoint, because the universe does things, at least in the sense of a blind tropism, to "organize" matter/energy/information. I have to say I appreciate the very precise way you express your ideas, it makes them relatively easy to drill down on. I think we need to unpack a few concepts there. What is caring, and what do you mean the you say ‘the universe’ does things. On caring, you said the universe "cares" for us in the sense of providing the causal infrastructure to get there. So that’s an intention towards a specific pre-conceived outcome. How can we know this though, what source do we have that would indicate that this outcome was intended as against any other outcome? It seems like a claim like that would require evidence of this intention existing prior to the outcome. On the universe doing things, the way you phrase this seems heavily loaded with anthropomorphism. When a molecule catalyses a reaction forming other molecules it’s that molecule which is having this specific effect at that specific time, not ‘the universe’. Self organisation is literally about the components objects of system themselves organising, they and the system they form are the ‘self’ that is organising, as against an external influence imposing or ordaining an organisation. Not ‘self’ as in consciousness obviously, ‘self’ as in internal or intrinsic to the system in question. I think it might be useful to discuss the nature on intentionality, because caring about getting to an intended state is intentional. To me, what makes a system intentional is that it some representation of the end state it is trying to achieve. So it has some criterion that it must satisfy and it takes action to meet that criterion. If ‘the universe’ had or has an intention to meet an end state, we should be able to find this representation somewhere. To take two trivially simple examples, a ball rolling down a hill has no representation of any end state it’s trying to achieve. It’s not a dynamic system, it will eventually reach a point of equilibrium at the bottom of the hill and will stop, but you can’t determine where that will be by examining the ball. A thermostat on the other hand does have a representation of the temperature it’s trying to achieve. You can determine what that temperature is purely by examining the internals of the thermostat. If ‘the universe’ has an end goal to care about, that representation must be somewhere to be found.
@arthurwieczorek4894
@arthurwieczorek4894 16 дней назад
2:50. "...nurtures the universe...." Miracles? Some kind of intervention? What about the devilish intervention? Isn't the devil a part of the religious world view?
@sven888
@sven888 16 дней назад
I love you brother.
@steve_____K307
@steve_____K307 15 дней назад
We must acknowledge that the Truth of God’s existence (however it might turn out) is one thing, but the Truth of any particular world religion is quite another. We must proceed without the distraction of any of them.
@arthurwieczorek4894
@arthurwieczorek4894 15 дней назад
@@steve_____K307 In my mind one of the basis for proceeding is Lee's Elucidation. A finite number of words must be made to represent an infinite number of things and possibilities.
@steve_____K307
@steve_____K307 15 дней назад
@@arthurwieczorek4894 Any chance you could reword that? What are you saying?
@arthurwieczorek4894
@arthurwieczorek4894 15 дней назад
"...[God] nurtures the universe...." Is he saying God intervenes in the world by way of miracles? The Devil is also a part of the religious view he mentioned. So does he think that the devil intervenes in the world as well?
@arthurwieczorek4894
@arthurwieczorek4894 17 дней назад
'Is the world self organizing?' Is that the same as 'Is the world natural?' To say that the world is not self-organizing would be to say what in positive terms? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
@sven888
@sven888 16 дней назад
Very true.
@andolink
@andolink 16 дней назад
It seems obvious to me that any conception of God as the source of everything that is, begs the obvious question about the origin of God and, therefore, makes the idea of God as the beginning of everything profoundly unsatisfactory.
@steve_____K307
@steve_____K307 15 дней назад
Your comment frustrates me. We've heard it so often and it amazes us that people continue to express it. The reality is that nobody avoids the reality that “something” fundamental exists at the foundation of creation, and that "something" necessarily is eternal. Take your pick, is it unconscious or is it conscious? We only have the two choices: Either, 1. The [eternal] material universe created Consciousness, or 2. The [eternal] Consciousness created the universe. Again, nobody avoids acknowledging that “something” fundamental and eternal exists.
@tonyatkinson2210
@tonyatkinson2210 13 дней назад
@@steve_____K307”created” consciousness? You’re assuming it’s not emergent
@steve_____K307
@steve_____K307 12 дней назад
@@tonyatkinson2210 Well first, your comment was off the actual topic, but you can use any word you want to express the concept of something material [and unconscious] bringing into existence consciousness. So "created", "emergent" are expressing that same thing in this context.
@tonyatkinson2210
@tonyatkinson2210 11 дней назад
@@steve_____K307 I disagree. They mean entirely different things , especially in context. But whatever, you’ve clarified now. You don’t mean a deliberate act of bringing something into existence
@ronhudson3730
@ronhudson3730 17 дней назад
“God” existed before the universe, if “God” is defined as the state that allowed for the eventual universe. The universe is defined by its ability to evolve and self-organize to the state it is in today, because of the fundamental parameters of the universe. Perhaps the universe is the product of the intention and mind of God. Perhaps it is how “God” experiences itself - through creation and our experience - and the experience of other sentient creatures on Earth and elsewhere.
@simonhibbs887
@simonhibbs887 17 дней назад
You can define god as you like, but defining god as the cause of the universe is simply a statement of your belief about god. It doesn’t establish that the cause of the universe actually was god.
@sven888
@sven888 16 дней назад
My thoughts exactly.
@24t44yn
@24t44yn 16 дней назад
The world is a fallen world where there is good and evil, pain, temptation, sin etc. according to Bible this world isn't a perfect world. Also because there is free will God has designed our reality so that it is both possible to believe in Him as well as not believe in Him, hence a reality that might in appearance not seem to require God.
@obiwanduglobi6359
@obiwanduglobi6359 15 дней назад
Ockham would certainly give a simpler answer: I don't believe in God because there is absolutely no reason for me to do otherwise.
@steve_____K307
@steve_____K307 15 дней назад
We must acknowledge that the Truth of God’s existence (however it might turn out) is one thing, but the Truth of any particular world religion is quite another. We must proceed without the distraction of any of them.
@evaadam3635
@evaadam3635 17 дней назад
"Is the World Self-Organizing?" This World is organizing and reorganizing itself driven by the natural laws designed by our Divine Creator to maintain its order and balance... ..and the creation of these naturals laws relied on how our Creator gathered, arranged, organized, and fused spirits from His Spiritual World to form all elementary particles of matter... Details of this knowledge is a forbidden fruit for satan & followers not to discover... .. however, our free aware immortal souls were not created but splits of the Holy Spirit. Only our human vessels belong to the physical world designed by God.
@arthurwieczorek4894
@arthurwieczorek4894 17 дней назад
Does what you are saying mean that the world is not natural, that it is instead magical, controlled by ghosts? I think it does.
@sven888
@sven888 16 дней назад
Very correct. Blessings to you brother.
@Rosiedelaroux
@Rosiedelaroux 13 дней назад
No it’s not
@fortynine3225
@fortynine3225 17 дней назад
Self-organizing that is a nice way of putting it. We might think now we are organizing ourselves but it is still the universe doing its thing since we are unconscious driven by design...
@sven888
@sven888 16 дней назад
You know it.
@BeesWaxMinder
@BeesWaxMinder 16 дней назад
I've been thinking this since the 80s🤷‍♂️
@catherinemoore9534
@catherinemoore9534 17 дней назад
💯👌
@butterchuggins5409
@butterchuggins5409 17 дней назад
The world is trash
@simonhibbs887
@simonhibbs887 17 дней назад
You made me think of Forkie, the toy the little girl makes in Toy Story 4 that keeps trying to throw itself in the trash, because that’s what it’s made from.
@butterchuggins5409
@butterchuggins5409 17 дней назад
@@simonhibbs887 we are all made of trash
@arthurwieczorek4894
@arthurwieczorek4894 17 дней назад
I've found nice things in the trash.
@0-by-1_Publishing_LLC
@0-by-1_Publishing_LLC 17 дней назад
Look at all the comments that aren't showing up. ... Obviously, RU-vid isn't self-organizing.
@billyblim1213
@billyblim1213 17 дней назад
How do I look at them?
@0-by-1_Publishing_LLC
@0-by-1_Publishing_LLC 17 дней назад
@@billyblim1213 *"How do I look at them?"* ... There all buried in the "newest first" section that nobody ever looks at unless it's a +5-year-old video.
@sven888
@sven888 16 дней назад
Some secrets should not be spilled.
@S3RAVA3LM
@S3RAVA3LM 17 дней назад
Buddha has revealed the way out and through the bottle neck. Superimpositions, ideas, beliefs, preferences, bias, identifications, all obstacles. Any kind of favoritism or bias, is but a notion and limiting factor. Science vs religion or metaphysics vs physics or christianity vs islam or liberalism vs conservative or identifying with anything, be it name and form or even the body - what truth is there in any such notions of these dualities other than condition, therefore a mental disposition - going to base your Truth concerning 'ALL THIS' from a relative and trite perspective? That doesn't seem scientific. You can't see God but what you do see is what exactly....science? Do you see science? How does one denominate ALL OF THIS anyways? God is an appellation no different than doctor other than the lofty degree it's designation represents. It seems the only persons who deny God are those whose idea of the Divine is but the notion of a man hiding up in the clouds. Even those who think the prediction of a multiverse now cancels out God, is a sentiment most worthy of repudiation even in the person claiming it. God is such a tricky topic here in the animal kingdom. The wise man acknowledged 'the one' as beyond being, essence, the intelligibles, that no mind or intelligence can grasp, and is the ultimate cause of all things, and this is a fact that 'the one' can not participate in anything, therefore exempt, but all participate in the 'good', and no diminution ever occurs in 'the good' or else none of this could have even been, be, or become. An over flowing fountain within itself, from itself, by itself, pre exists all things, extends to all things giving all nutriment and subsistence, and always exempt and impervious. God is important because only true realization therein does deiform arise. We aren't making the rules up here, or the laws, although there are men today who do hanker in 'lording it over' all things. We can go downstream, or we can go upstream to the source. Who dares say there is no soruce abode of a river? Who dares say there is no soul because you can't touch it? Who would claim that truth, justice, virtue, essence, harmony, law, revolution, the very universals, who would say these are mere contingents? The Divine is important for our deiform, our realization from whence we come and where we go. For acknowledging the principles and universals and not for our own selfish gain, but for our fellow man, nature, animal, and for all life, to become one with the universals revolution - the procession is the reversion. Not for my own sake do i acknowledge God, but for your's. Some muslims want to be right about Allah being the true God; Christians want to be right about YHWH as the true God. They worship only an idea of God and not truly the Divine. They have vested interests. Some just can't acknowledge or engage in God, and so the Sun has always been the great symbol of. Everything you have is by the Sun. But still, God is just such a silly notion. I guess vanity in some completely hijack their own GOD-given intellects, they can't even see what the intellect is even if it were steering them in their faces. The brilliant splendor of the Sun, the very spiritual essence of God, is too, in man. There is a light in man. Religion is so silly though - but is it really religion, or is religion merely a medium that reveals the fallen nature of man! Yes, that's right. We see the same contention over sports, soccer, and even politics, and race. I guess, calling all this, or denominating ALL OF THIS as science isn't so bad, comparing with religion, as this does reckon Reason but to only a sensual limited degree and transforms men into folly materialists. All of this for me is magic. Whenever a new breakthrough there is in a science, for me it's miracles brought to fruition; these universal formulas there awaiting, and by the intellect, to reveal it. This is all a miracle.
@sujok-acupuncture9246
@sujok-acupuncture9246 17 дней назад
Holy place , holy book , holy pen , holy car , holy t-shirt , holy house , holy roads , holy men , holy women , holy children , holy father, holy mother , holy rubber pencil .... And the human mind shall create more hollies... Everything is holy in this world.
@sven888
@sven888 16 дней назад
I see your point but why make it so complex?
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