No more temples after Christ??? Ep. 19 

Thanks, David! I was actually wondering this exact thing! Like I always say, I'm puzzled as to why Latter-day Saints would use Early Church Fathers as support. St. Cyril's understanding of the nature of God is nothing like that of Latter-day Saints; the fullness of the initiation ritual he describes can be understood only in the context of a Trinitarian baptism. I'm not very familiar with Margaret Barker, except that she draws upon gnostic sources--and the early church viewed those as heretical. I'm sure she comes up with some interesting stuff though. FWIW, I think Scott Hahn and Brant Pitre do an excellent job of showing the Jewish roots of Christianity and their full meaning as reflected in Jesus.

@@allieooop3923 certainly there are plenty of things we disagree with St. Cyril about, Trinitarianism is probably one of them, but if his initiation rituals are reminiscent of early temple practices, then it's fascinating how similar they are to what Joseph Smith came up with. While we Latter-day Saints do claim to be Christ's restored church, we don't claim to have a monopoly on truth. Early Church Fathers had some great truth to offer, and probably plenty of heresy. I think gnostic texts have some great truth to offer, as well as heresy. I think it's really refreshing for Latter-day Saints to sometimes step out of their own religious culture to learn things from Catholicism, etc. Haven't heard of Scott Hahn or Brant Pitre, I'll have to check them out. Thanks!

@@davidsnell2605 Thanks for the response, David! Not knowing the details of what goes on in your temples, I definitely want to acknowledge that you may be making connections to St. Cyril's texts that I don't see. But his lecture "On Baptism" simply reminds me of adult baptisms/initiations in churches with high liturgical practices, most especially what you'd see with Orthodox Christians (body parts anointed with oil, full immersion, clothing changes). You wrote, "...it's fascinating how similar they are to what Joseph Smith came up with." Unless I'm missing something, which is entirely possible, I don't see a restoration supported by St. Cyril's texts, but rather proof of practices that have continued throughout the centuries in some Christian churches. I'm not sure I'll be able to explain this well, but I'm going to give it a shot. I'm attempting to distinguish between what I see as "doing the same things" and "truth". As a Catholic, I can watch a Latter-day Saint baptism and it might look very similar to an adult, full immersion baptism in my own church--water, same actions, words, etc--like "doing the same things". However, because we don't share the same understanding of God, I don't see "truth"/efficacy in the ordinance. I'd guess (correct me if I'm wrong) you don't see "truth" in a Catholic baptism, even if you saw we might be "doing the same things". (This would be for adult immersion, not the babies!) I think the "truth" is found in the meaning/significance/intent of the matter (water, oil, etc), actions and words, because these things in and of themselves don't possess "truth". With this in mind, I think it could very well be fair to say that Latter-day Saints are "doing the same things" in their temple rituals as St. Cyril described in his lectures on church initiation (and that some churches still do today). But the "truth" (which is THE important thing) of the ritual described by St. Cyril is inextricably intertwined with its intended purpose--which is formal initiation into relationship with a Trinitarian God. Take this extreme example: Wiccans anoint people with oil. So, they are "doing the same things" as Christians, but I don't see "truth" in the ritual. I might be coming across as super nit-picky right now, but I personally feel a need to try to keep St. Cyril's work from being taken out of context. Probably similar to how you might feel the need to defend Joseph Smith at times. Yes, indeed, Early Church Fathers have come up with some heretical stuff. When referring to Barker's research sources, I probably should have used the less loaded word of "unorthodox". I'll admit I'm intrigued by what I've heard about her. Peace.

David regardless of temples and “church history” what did YAH say about temples? And to take it one step further. Joseph Smith is a false prophet. He says there are many Gods, YAH says is the ONLY ELOHIM. Do you ever get tired of making videos to defend your faith? Because the LDS faith is so clearly flawed in every aspect. Come to the one true and most high God YHWH.

@@allieooop3923 Fair enough! Of course we'll have to agree to disagree on a few things but I largely agree with your point. The last thing I wanted to do was disrespect one of your saints, so if I've done that I apologize. From my point of view I highly respect him, but I understand from a non-Latter-day Saint perspective that you'd think my use of his work is probably blasphemous.

I gotta respect Catholics too, you guys are really devoted to your church. We all gotta stick together in these troubling days.

They are just Catholics in hiding following the Sunday worship instead of the Sabbath that God created,.. the change of the ten commandments. .. !! CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH page 523 3rd commandment ( Gods word is the 4th Commandment) both false churches.. read Revelation

Our church is being bashed because our priests and pope are failing us. Vatican 2 took the beauty of our church and utterly destroyed it while also covering up and hiding the sexual abuse of our children from our clergy. Our church has lost its way and thank God that there is a traditonal catholic movement pushing to return to the pre vatican 2 church. Pope Francis is a devil. He is uttering blasphemy any chance he gets and promoting that pagan idols such as pachi mama deserve respect. Absolutely disgusting. He has lost his way and must repent. He is encouraging all sorts of un Godly beliefs and is smearing what it means to be catholic. We used to be the light of the world, and now we are witnessing the light of church be extinguished by unfit and underlying clergy men thag abandoned christ.

Good questions, that certainly would be interesting to know. It would also be interesting know if the Jews themselves have a legend of their temple veil being torn at that time.

​@@caseykaelin9430there is no information about a torn curtain or an earthquake outside of the Bible. Josephus is the main historical source of the time, and says nothing.

Nevermind I see it below.links wood be nice

A Methodist woman named Margaret Barker (she's still alive and kicking) wrote a fascinating book called "Temple theology" that delves into the importance of temples in ancient times, it's really interesting.

@@davidsnell2605 Thank you I will definitely take a look. So appreciated!

Just like the Temple of Solomon being destroyed but is being rebuilt.

@@blenderesque708 There’s no need for temples. Christ is the temple.

That is not correct, the saints were still going up into the temple even after Christ's death.

@@germanslice actually everything I said is a biblical and historical fact. Only Jewish Christians continued to go to temple until it was destroyed. As the book of Acts said they met “house to house”. Gentile Christians were not expected to go to Temple.

@@germanslice Yeah, but then the Christians stopped being Jews and of course stopped going to "temples". (And they soon got into big trouble with Rome, because Jews in Roman Judaea were exempt from serving any Roman gods, but non-Jews and followers of unrecognized new sects such as "Christianity" were not.)

@@colinredmond Ezekiel tells you that there's going to be a temple of God built in Israel later on in the future and when the temple is built it will heal up the waters of the dead sea, so it don't matter than the temple got destroyed back in 70 AD because the temple worship in Israel is going to be restored back again in a day when temple worship of God will be all over the earth in Zion in the latter-days. That's why the Latter-day Saints have got all these temples in Zion. For temple worship has already been restored back again on the earth as part of the restoration of the gospel and soon Israel will start building their temple. So it won't be just the latter-day saints who will be wearing the temple clothes. for the Levite Priests of the Jews in the future are also going to again wear the temple garments as they done in the days of old. Because there's going to be a day of restitution of all things (Acts 3). so back are coming all the prophets, and the apostles, and also bringing back also temple worship and the temple clothing to prepare for the second coming of the Lord and ushering in also the Milennium.For in the Milennium the planet will have temples of God on it

Agreed, those ancient texts should be taken with a grain of salt. Even within the Latter-day Saint belief system we believe Christ's original teachings were going through a long process of corruption throughout the centuries following his death, so what early church fathers had to say was probably hit and miss. Haven't heard of Saint John Chrysostom before! I'll have to read up on him.

David Snell, thank you for your work! My belief, as one turning from Eastern Orthodoxy to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, is that the Spirit of our living and risen Savior, Jesus Christ, was suppressed by the rituals of the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches.

David Snell, One may gain many cautious insights, from reading the early church fathers. A major problem: people laud Saint John Chrysostom, who spoke terribly, of the Jews,

@@davidsnell2605 Cool. Islam, a NEW religion late on the scene, had to pretend that all the Hebrew and Greek scriptures were corrupted, and that they were "restoring" the truth by replacing it with whatever they made up about Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Jesus, etc. Joseph Smith did the same thing, inventing his own version of Churchianity, adding, subtracting, and redesigning at will, claiming to be "restoring" a lost "original" faith, invalidating all others who claim it. Christianity itself kind of did this to Judaism. Embrace, extend, usurp.