I feel this. I write mostly instrumental so it’s always important to incorporate something to hold the focus…like a melody on top or a sudo vocal line. I didn’t know there was a term like this. I like it….top line…Sloppy Toppy Line.
From a slightly older generation perspective: Would you listen to Allman Bros' "Jessica" if the lead guitar was removed? No. You'd be bored pretty quickly. The rest of the music is great but it's great *as a backdrop* for that lead line.
3:37 100% agree. I often have a really hard time following lyrics, so I’m usually focusing more on the melody, instead. 7:32 you don’t even have to become a singer, if you want to keep your music instrumental. But singing along to your melodies is a great trick to find out, wether they’re actually memorable or not. That being said, there’s no real excuse in not at least trying to learn how to sing. It’s the one instrument we all have at no extra cost, and a lot of our musical intuition is based around that. So it should be a no-brainer, no matter what kind of music you make.
If you aren't singing your topline to yourself, nobody else will be. People ask "should I go to school" and my answer is YES. Not julliard, not berklee...your local community college. Take the first two music classes which will be something like "sight singing and ear training" and "intro to keyboarding" and you can usually take them in the same term. If you want to spend 8-10 weeks doing something really impactful to your music experience and personal development, I can't stress this strongly enough; everything you learn after that will benefit from having committed to the handful of weeks it takes and in some states junior college is literally free. A smattering of fundamentals goes a LONG way.
Man, you don't know how fckn helpful this video was! I often times felt there was something 'missing' in my songs and I definetly considered learning to sing; though it is really hard to get myself doing it, as I literally _never_ really sung before... Also in my little compositions, I sometimes involved a little synth melody and more often than not, these songs felt more alive and catchy, guess I created a 'top line'... Thanks so much, I have the feeling, that this realization could drastically change a lot for many of us!
Great advice. My music composition professor in college would make me hum/sing the melodies of my piano/chamber pieces to him before he let me play them for him or even show him the score. If that initial presentation didn't grab him, I had to go back and try again. This even happened when we were doing more "atonal" styles of pieces that people don't really associate with being very melodic music. If there is nothing that demands attention, your piece won't get attention.
Smart prof! Academic composing has become a lot of pseudointellectual wankery. So important to have something for people to latch onto and for at least some of the music to be *communicable*
All the instrumental bands you listed DO NOT DO IT FOR ME. I have to go like Gary Hoey, Buckethead or similar, and they also will skip the "topline" creating what I think is the best music around. To each their own, their not ine way to do anything but some people will never let it out of their head and will always write to the constraints of a listener they imagine. I am more creative than most, I imagine my listener is just the person that will match this song at the time I am writing. I love the channel, I just think I deviate from the norm in a way that is significant and I have over time come to accept it and love it.
A+. Hook, melody, voiceleading, vocals etc all serve this purpose and it's a thread throughout the whole song (or at least should be). It's really easy as a newbie to reject this concept but there's a good reason a communicable focal point that leads the listener is almost without exception a large part of bands' most loved and revered songs. The obscure ones are fun but by necessity tend to take more concentration and more listens. There's a good reason bands like Dream Theater, Opeth and other bands writing obscure progressions and time signatures have, deapite this, enjoyed such widespread popularity and fanbases.
I find in my case that best songs are those that start from some hooky melody in my head and not from some riff that I come up with, then I try to incorporate that melody in riffs and solos. I think that a lot of modern metal songwriters should try to listen to some older metal and even classic rock songs and try to learn from there because almost all of those songs have great toplines, you dont't even need to have vocals to have topline, first thing that comes to my mind are instrumentals on early In Flames albums because evry single instrumental gets stuck in my head because of great toplines.
I like how you've articulated something that I think I've always noticed but never really consciously thought about in my own music. Thinking of the songs I'm most proud of in my own music, there is usually something to direct your ear towards beyond just the riff and the vocals.
Right on Trey! I love the fact you brought up the point about learning to sing. I’ve had some negative experiences with some gatekeeping when it comes to vocals, but I kept trying! I’ve been working on my voice for a little over 5 years now and I’ve made a lot of progress! Don’t ever let anyone tell you you can’t pick up singing! It’s a skill just like any other!
People are the fucking WORST about gatekeeping singing, especially in the US. Cultures around the world sing all the time just for funsies and aren’t constantly shaming each other about it. It takes a LONG time to get anywhere with singing, glad to hear you’re making progress!
@@treyxaviermusic It certainly does! So I’m definitely taking it with a “in it for the long haul” mentality. Slow and steady progress is fine with me haha Also, in response to your statement about the US. I have a feeling it might be connected to the major rise in pop music / pop idols in the 90s - early 2000s. They kind of established a sort of singing standard and it’s totally reinforced by shows like American Idol, etc. Not implying that there’s anything wrong with that standard, but it kinda makes it so unique timbres and vocal quirks aren’t given as much recognition in modern music. I mean back in the day you could be monotoned af (Bob Dylan, imo) but still make great music if the actual music was solid. There’s so much emphasis on (what is perceived to be) perfect production that it can be very discouraging to try to get into singing if you’re completely new to it. That and like many lead guitarists, singers also can develop a bit of a main character syndrome, which can definitely make for some toxic local communities. Thankfully, we have the interwebs and wholesome musicians like yourself, to help foster positive music communities! Thanks so much for making the awesome content, and taking the time to respond to my comment! It made my day!
Usually, I think to myself, "My riffs aren't just chords being strummed, there are something actually happening", and then I relax, concerning "what's interesting about the song, or the secction of it". Maybe I try a little harder if I ever get to play with someone. Maybe they ARE conventional riffs, I mean, low (5th and 6th strings, usually, up to 15th fret), fast picked and with some little lines changing the notes of the chords (mainly power chords, I assume, but I also use dyads of third, fourth, sixth, even second degree), applying different techniques in between. Conventional, not very modern, but still working, I guess.
My favorite types of music are rock songs. And the things they all have is a top line that never takes it foot off your neck. It’s guitar, then drum fill then verse, then bass fill, then guitar leads, verse, chorus, solo. Just never lets up.
I'll add to the example with some Elder Scrolls games. Think of your favorite ambient track from Skyrim. Got it? Great. Now ask yourself, is it as good as Wings of Kynareth from Oblivion? No. No it's not, and now you know why. Lol
I hear your argument but without some examples I can't really make up my mind about this. Is this your experience or are you drawing from some kind of foundation?
I think, lots of modern Deathcore is just intended to be background music for moshing. I tried to listen to, lets say, Distant lots of times, and there is just absolutely nothing catchy about it. No topline, just noise
Yes, yes I would listen to my everyday music as kareoke music, but it's prog or fusion 80% of the time, so there's interesting shit going on at all times lol
I never knew it was called this, I just knew there was a “voice” to a song, it could be the guitar or a vocal or something but whatever it is the rest of the song is developed to strengthen its effect.
... Wow... What an important lecture here today. Blew my mind ... no wonder why nobody likes to listen to me shred compared to like Nuno Bettencourt ... that dude IS the top line....whereas I'm the unstructured, unpurposeful mess .... Thanks Trey, this enlightened me.
Couldn’t a riff be the top line???? All of the doom soundtrack and other fan made songs in a similar style don’t have a top line but the riff is supposed to serve the same purpose
I want to write tons of songs that are not forefront and are capable of being given a top line, many kids perhaps. Just what I like, I dont make music for anyone but me. I have randomly added toplines at times but I stay away and I use my songs to sing in the car and shower. I only put them on major platforms so anyone else can do it
As someone who mostly listens to shoegaze, i have found myself listening to some music without a topline. All be it its typically not very good. Very interesting and inspiring video, glad your channel today.
I'm use to write soundtracks for short movies and that type of stuff, just now I'm starting to learn to write songs with vocals This video helped me a lot
Give some idea of your opinions on bands like ISIS (the band), Mogwai, Russian Circles, blah, blah, blah...successful mostly instrumental bands that have memorable songs with strong melodies, but not necessarily a strong (vocal) topline.
Successful is kind of a relative term, so keep that in mind - those are VERY niche bands with a cult audience. What I've heard of those bands is mostly about mastery of dynamics more than anything else, Mogwai in particular.
Growing up I never cared for any of this stuff. Textures was hands down the greatest band to my ears, they had a great following by being original. Yes, it might have been a target market but drawing circles was the greatest albums to my ears. Lots of misinformation and I'm not downing your videos but I never cared about any of this as a consumer, I just think people are lacking in intellect nowadays and require some guideline just like hip hop or that caca catchy music. Also vocalists water down the music at times, in my asshole opinion bands are better without vocalists unless the vocalist is ok with technical structures and being on rhythm with odd time meters. I dont play music to get popular so my opinion probably doesn't matter but I will say one thing and that's the mere fact that creating technical music and pushing my limits made me a better musician. Play for fun guys, stop worrying about structure and be original
@Gear Gods was just sayin I never really payed attention to all that stuff. I definitely enjoyed the video but was surprised to hear your take on structuring songs. I just never cared for any of that personally is all. Either way keep on making videos my guy I'm always looking forward to your stuff. Not much a fan of the songwriting stuff but as far as everything else I fucking love it lol.
thank you for those tips, I really like the karaoke analogy, that was helpful. also, that guitar is awesome, what is the body, neck and fretboard material is it?
Roasted swamp ash body, maple/walnut neck, flame maple fretboard, you can see me order it here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-a_s8girLAJs.html
I can understanding how the term "top line" can be confusing for some. I have a degree in music and honestly can't remember ever hearing the term. I think in my day we just always called it a melody. Music and lyrics, chords and melody, music and melody, etc... Anyhoo... the part that went with the chord changes. I just always assumed as a songwriter, unless you're writing background music, you needed both parts for song. Kinda makes you scared for the future. Hopefully music doesn't devolve anymore. 20 years from now, GearGods contest # 2. "Guys... you need more than just a 3 minute drone of one note for song."
The problem is that "melody" is IMO not descriptive enough. Sometimes it's a riff, sometimes it's growling vox, sometimes it's voiceleading -- whatever is being used to lead the listener.
I think, Trey calls this a top line because a focal point in the song can be anything, for example rhythm of intro breakdown in The Downfall of Us All by A Day Remember. This song has a great chorus and verses, but the first thing come to my mind when I think of the song is the intro. Also drops from hard trap or dubstep came to my mind. So I think top line is just the first thing that would come to your mind when you think about the song
Yeah they didn't use it in any of the classes I took either, it's basically a pop music term and since I was mainly a jazz performance (lol ask me if I can play autumn leaves) and then composition major it didn't get kicked around. It's everywhere in the music industry and songwriting circles though, and I like it because it applies across all genres
OMG I love "Friends" by Satriani too, I used to listen to the entire "Extremist" album on my walkman while cycling in the fields. Another great instrumental band is Apocalyptica, their album "Reflections" is just brilliant and full of such top lines. I think there used to be an ad about car tires that was using a song from that album, that's how catchy they are. 😆
thx for the video they one thing that i always confused in song writing is fills or bridge, something that connecting one part to another. I struggle soo much in that area it'll be good if u can put the light on it, thx
I studied music so much that they gave me a piece of paper to show other people that I know what I’m talking about. It’s called a topline because it’s not always a melody, as I mention in the video.
I just wanna throw it out there that IMO some legendary songs actually have multiple "toplines" (some more prominent than others), and spread over various instruments. Bohemian Rhapsody, Stairway To Heaven, Smells Like Teen Spirit, Chop Suey etc. You know the second these songs start which song it is even without lyrics or vocals. Generally the vocals then take it to the next level (which also IMO is one of the most difficult things to achieve as a songwriter - making the lyrics and vocal melodies greater than already great and memorable music).
I actually had never heard this term. I suppose I've always written songs with vocals, so I already had a top line. But I think the moment that really explained what a top line was, to me anyway, is when you explained there's ambient music playing and then stopped talking ( ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-PQNYBDEKYz8.html ). I honestly didn't notice the ambience until then. My ears tuned it out, but of course that background music fills out the video. Your speaking is the top line!
My typical process was to come up with a series of riffs (typically at least 3) that worked well together to form the basic melody. drums and bass would be added. for instrumentals, the riffs were often the top line, but some had lead guitar top lines over the riffs. Some had vocals (complete with verses and choruses) and guitar solos, and the topline would switch between riffs, vocals, and solos. This approach served me well for 3 CDs and 5 EPs worth of recorded material, until i needed a female vocalist to continue in the direction I wanted to go. Unable to get a vocalist, I just kind of stopped writing and recording music altogether. That was over 20 years ago. Now I'm retired and thinking about getting back into it. But for the last couple of years i've been mostly building guitars instead of playing guitar. In one song, the topline was general MIDI instrument #121 "guitar fret noise" pitch shifted up 2 octaves so it sounded like a glass harmonica. That song also had a guitar solo. It was a heavy metal ballad. Sort of "Tool" meets "Love Spirals Downwards".
Would love to do the full songwriting course man. But honestly just IMO you should have options to buy each section individually. I would buy just the topline one right now if it were an option. Again, love all the content man!
I considered that but since I didn’t structure it that way, if you bought only one part of the course it wouldn’t make sense out of context, it doesn’t have very clearly defined parts like that unfortunately. Since it’s mostly me writing a whole song, I go through it more by song section than by concepts like topline.
That's too funny, and so true! I can't find a singer so we do instrumental music. I learned how to sing because I wanted to know how to sing. Duh! In my first prop band, they stuck a microphone in front of me and said, "Sing this". So we had 4 part harmony. It may not have been perfect, but it beat the crap out of all the bands that had 1 singer. As for the "topline". It's the melody, or hook. But it's what people want to listen to. The best advice I ever had was form Randy Bachman. He said that when you write a song, it needs a melody right at the start. It draws people into the song and once you have their attention, you have to have more melody to keep[ it there. He only wrote a ton of hits with BTO and the Guess who so what would he know about song writing? Nobody has ever heard "Taking Care of Business" I bet!
Great video Trey, couldn’t agree more with learning to sing, you don’t have to be amazing, I sounded like dog shite, now I just sound like a dog shit stain....hahah
Could you do a video about analyzing songs/listening to records you love for inspiration in songwriting? I was thinking about how fucking great Screaming for Vengeance is today but I cant really put my finger on any point on the record and say that's the make or break point that puts it above and beyond. Fairly sure the answer isnt only sick riffs bro.
Once I learned to sing and play I found myself on stage as a frontman and then they had to listen to my guitar playing . If you audition as a singer / guitar player you will usually win out over a guy who doesn’t sing
@@treyxaviermusic Yeah, I can't think of one either. But it would be extremely interesting if we could find an outlier from a well known band. And see how it panned out.
But Shylmagoghnar DO have toplines. They are, after all, a MELODIC death metal band. They use classical diatonic harmonic structures and they have a vocalist that chants in the guttural style.
You rate/roasted my band Alinea during one of your live streams, we are no longer together, our drummer got diagnosed with Pancreatic cancer and is not going to make it. but I wanted to say thanks for your input and it meant alot. I enjoy singing and have been practicing alot lately. Singing and playing is alot harder then what you guys make it look haha but when u mentioned that in the video, it hit home with me and was inspiring to hear. I need to go my own way. Im Solar guy ha. Keep doin what your doin brotha, you rule🤘
Makes a lot of sense, right! But, if anything, shouldn't it be the other way around? Since a topline is actually the thing you want to "say", the focal point, shouldn't you start with writing this focal point first and writing the chords and baselines after, so you can give your topline more meaning or emphasis?
I'm sitting here thinking about a top line in the context of my favorite band, At The Drive In, and it's not specific vocal melodies or instrument parts that stick out for me. It the whole filtered through their energy. The opening thrust of One Armed Scissor is a kick in the chest. The bridge of Cosmonaut is bananas. The sway of Lopsided. Watch them play One Armed Scissor live on Letterman. It's on youtube. That set is what I mean. My band, Stationary Giant, tries to capture that same feeling. If we aren't feeling the tune ..... we don't record it and we won't play it live. You can hear on a recording wether or not the band is into it. A great hook is ..... great ...... but if you're not playing it like you f*cking mean it then people will notice.
Right. Feeling is more important IMO. No emotional content is junk, top line or not. I've honestly never heard of this term before but I think he means ear worms. I hate ear worms.
Genuine question/discussion point here: what would you say the top line of a breakdown is? Is it the drums? The guitar? Is it a moment where there is no top line to create/break tension?
