What makes Kratos unlikeable, isn't that he kills gods, it's that he kills those who help him, for instance there was one in the 3rd game who makes you a new weapon, and then you kill him for no reason. In the first one there is a bridge you need to cross and a man won't lower it for you, so you kill him and use him to lower it (I forget how). And it that case you don't feel that you have done anything wrong. In 3 there is a slave girl who you shove under a lever so you can advance, and she gets crushed, even though she had done nothing wrong.
+Chase Langlands Well, no. Spartan training revolved around building military strength (particularly military formations), not just being a dick to everyone in general. In real life, there was more sharing a common lifestyle and practicing discipline (like how a real-life military works) than "throwing children to wolves and the most bloodthirsty one that survives becomes king".
Having no experience regarding this game other than what you said in this video, it seems that the message of the series shows the descent of a human being into a pure elemental force of war. The fall of a complex being with remorse and tragedy and things into the type of flat character that any immutable god creature inevitably is. It is the stripping away of complexity and humanity until the main character has ceased to be anything but a clean avatar of destruction. The player loses choice because the character also loses it. I think it switches to first person to show that Kratos ceases to be human, and has become a fully realized, flat, undynamic, unfree, elemental expression of war, free to be inhabited and expressed by and through anyone, including the player.
+Jens Boettiger I thought about something similar. What if the change to first person in the end of the game symbolizes how violent and meaningless you are (instead of just the character)? That all the bad that has happened in the game happens because you choose it, you choose to play it killing a lot of people. It may be message from the creators of the game, something like "Our complex character became a meaningless killer because you players were controlling it, you wanted every new game more violent and with less story, so we needed to do it, then the burden of destroying this character is on you, you're the controller of Kratos"
+Matheus Oliveira da Silva And yet that stupid because they didn't give us a choice. GoW is a linear game, it's not you can win by killing or through peaceful means. it's go here kill things. Doing something like that after two mindles linear slaughterfest games comes out as pretentious and not as smart. I didn't do it, KRATOS did and why didn't I do it? Because the game never BOTHERED to ask me if I WANTED not to brutaly kill this guy.
Probably the same. These guys were up their own asses in certainty about being right. That they were right fairly often made it a lot harder for them to see any sense when they weren't.
@@MarkoArillius I mean this video can totally still stand even if the new GoW franchise is perfect in every way. They aren't saying it's a bad story, they're just saying that II and III lacked the same artistic vision/deeper meaning to the story.
Actually the final moments of GoW3 were kind of clever in that they never said when to stop pressing circle and we all just kept mashing the button faster than in Metal Gear Solid. Guess it represents the audience truly embracing the violence as much as Kratos did.
Yeah, but it still don't really justify the whole hope and forgiveness dialogue from earlier. At most, it's giving you a choice between killing sues with your bare fists, or killing sues with your bare fists and beating up his corpse. Imagine if they allowed you to walk away in that last moment, when you went from third to first person. Not make it obvious, but maybe have a prompt by Zeus for punching, but still allow you to walk around.
Just recently introduced to you guys so apologies for the very out of date comment. For many of the reasons you outline, I really enjoyed the original God of War before the sequels became parodies of themselves. However, I disagree on your stance about the end of GOW3. Yes, Kratos comes back and puts you in first person to pummel Zeus w/ a QTE. But the fact that the punching continues indefinitely until the player stops following the button prompt stands out to me as it made me question my own actions. Before I knew that you could just stop once the screen went red, I kept punching for far longer than I needed to to resolve the story because I thought the prolonged brutality made sense for Kratos' rage toward Zeus. Eventually I thought it had gone on too long and that maybe my game had glitched so I stopped and the sequence ended. Why was I so ready and willing to continue mashing the button to beat the guy? Was I just doing what I thought Kratos would do (highlighted by the first-person element)? Was I, the player, taking out my frustration on the game and that final boss battle? Or was I just a automaton, responding to the button prompt as I had been conditioned to by that game and many others? It led to the most time I spent pondering the point of anything God of War related so for all the game's/series' fault, I at least credit it with how that final moment made me feel. Anyway, great series! I look forward to catching up to present-day videos and responding in a more timely fashion.
I disagree with the steady descent into ultra violence not having a point. At the beginning/end of the first game, Kratos tries to kill himself. He's hit rock bottom and just wants to end it all, after being saved we see him sitting on his throne and that it doesn't make him happy. He doesn't have his family, his wife and daughter will never return to him, of course he's going to just become more and more violent and arguably irritable and irrational, he has nothing to lose and violence is all he knows. In God of War 1 when he was a Captain his violence brought him prestige, when he killed his family and believed he could get them back through more violence he probably felt good again while he was killing. He probably thought, with every enemy I slay, with every swing, I get closer having my family again. He's been trained his whole life to believe that violence will bring him happiness, why wouldn't he get more and more violent?
Ruslan Victorenko umm then you'r not repeating the same exact thing. There's some sort of disturbance because computers always do the same thing every time.
No, they don't. Software works in mysterious ways, as do hardware. And yes, there is a disturbance; interference due to code. Let's take a simple one. Trying to reboot your computer, and Windows doesn't get to login screen. You reboot again, and does. Same action, different results. Either the saying is wrong, or indeed the world is insane, as same actions produce different results in various aspects.
MiningwithPudding All things carry an element of uncertainty of success or failure, which is why it is more insanity expecting same results upon same action. Computers more so than anything else, flawed perfectionists as they are.
This was a perfect analysis of the story. I was so disappointed that there even was a sequel to be honest. The first game was a self-contained story, and was completely fine as a standalone game. Only the realization that brand ID = $ made a sequel necessary. They could have even had a sequel in which the player could control a different character. The ancient Greek gods were spiteful and jealous. Giving the player control over a god would have allowed for the blood-soaked irredeemability without destroying the narrative. Zeus was an asshole...so were Poseidon and Hades. Athena was so jealous of Arachne's knitting skills that she turned her into a spider. None of the Greek gods were purely good...they were way too human for that.
+Doctor Nefarious He was a Titan; One of the few whom sided with the Gods in the Great War for Olympus. He was tasked with creating humanity and upon discovering how the Gods left them in the dark to be killed, he stole some of the Eternal Flame from Olympus and gave it to humanity. He is encountered in the 2nd game where Kratos gives him a mercy killing.
It was a good analysis, but I don't think it was perfect. The argument stands well considering what Dan, James, and Allison were working with. Little factoids like David Jaffe not being completely there for GoW II and III, the silly dialogue and the over emphasis in GoW III, and the knowledge the three main elements in Greek Tragedy really gives the argument in this video some weight. However, I know Dan missed a subtleties in and around the development of GoW II. He also did mention the other two games in the series, barring Ascension. Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta respectively, which despite being marketed by Sony as side title, are actually crucial elements in the narrative. I won't spoil too much, but I will say there were plot elements in God of War that were almost retconned due to David Jaffe's lack of care towards the series, but thankfully were established in Ghost of Sparta. Kratos is actually a pretty sympathetic character, even at his worst in God of War III, when you understand his Spartan upbringing, lack of a father, and perpetual victimhood on behalf of the Gods constantly manipulating him and directly or indirectly putting obstacles in his path to find happiness or closure despite the loyalty that he expressed towards them in GoW 1 and Chains of Olympus. Also, Dan forgot that Zeus initially appeared to help Kratos during his raid of Rhodes in the opening to GoW II, which means even with out the necessary backstory with Zeus and Kratos's mother, Kratos still has reason to go after Zeus, even if it was "petulant" and "infantile", which, considering Ghost of Sparta and Chains of Olympus, isn't true at all.
I am slightly bothered by the fact that you didn't mention what happened right next to the faceannihilation at the end of the game, where Kratos stabs himself once again due to his guilt and realization of his consequences. I personally think that the hope talk prior to the beating part going completely unnoticed by him was meant to reinforce Kratos' descend into absolute madness. There's no getting to him, he cannot be reasoned with. He is set to completely destroy the gods and will absolutely not listen to anything or anyone until he does so. But once he does, realizing that it really hasn't done anything for him in the slightest, he is overcomed with guilt once more. It's somewhat of a rehash of the story of the first game, but it's told in a much grander, visceral way - It's supposed to be about the extent of which Kratos' desire for revenge consumed him, consuming him to such an extent that he is incapable of caring about the world around him, to the point that he destroys it completely (or at least just Greece, based on the footage of the new game - It seems they're going to make it so Greek gods only affect the places where they are worshipped, while other places remain unaffected, at least as far as I can tell) They definitely could've told the story a lot better (For one, Kratos' desire to destroy the gods and Zeus could've been handled much better as he does indeed come across as a spoiled brat who violently lashes out whenever something doesn't go his way), but the message isn't completely diluded, it's still there.
Kusuriuri I agree with you on most of this apart from the end where you claim that his revenge against the gods comes off as a bratty move. The reason he destroyed the cities was because the god's had deceived him about forgetting his crimes leading him to lose all hope and respect in them, then finding out that they were responsible for the loss of his brother and being shunned and scorned by them he went to the spartans to distract him from torment and have a familiar relationship with them which of course brought him back into war and bloodshed. Athena although having been kind to him had also been cruel and deceptive to him especially with Deimos and his nightmares. It is also worth noting that most of the gods he kills also left him no choice such as poseidon, hercules, chronos, hades and the fates amongst others, so most of his victims were justified killings.
Is the entire series of God of War a greek tragedy? In the meaning that the series itself is a greek tragedy, not in the story, but in the series. The three points are: 1: Someone of high status brought low: Check. It got each time slightly lower scores by the public and the press. It got worse. 2: The actions don't have to be bad or evil. Characters are judged by their actions: Check. It's not that the third game is bad. It's just that they didn't do some things. 3: Tragedy:Check. They found out that it stopped getting the public attention it previously had and decided to kill the series. The last game that was not a remaster was from 2013. And there's no other game anounced. So, God of war is a greek tragedy on itself.
Actually, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with the switch from third to first person. Something very important that was left out was that at the end, when you're beating the crap out of him with your fists, the sequence actually continues as long as you keep punching. I don't feel like explaining the implications of this, and why the switch makes sense, because *effort* but there you go.
I don't think this critique applies to GoW 2. Kratos was warned for how he mis-used his newfound powers, but he was just protecting the Spartan capital. Likewise, he only wanted revenge because Zeus killed him and destroyed that capital. All you needed for a greek tragedy was to look at Zeus. Zeus murders his son Kratos (actions), after prophesying that one of his sons would kill him and trying to strike first (fall from grace), and ultimately inspires the very thing he wanted to stop (regret)
Perhaps the viewpoint switch was to suggest that the player themselves revel in the violence, much like Kratos does? To bring to light, in those final moments, that the player is just as guilty of the excesses of Kratos himself? Perhaps it's to make one consider that, over the course of three games, the player (through the puppet of Kratos) has violently murdered hundreds or thousands of creatures, heroes, men, and Gods? ...Probably not, but it's something to consider.
Bronson Carder They could've capitalized on that moment, and seized the opportunity to make the player go 'whoa... deep'. But instead... it was a cutscene smash attack event... which did not capitalize on the scene... so... yeah... 'why' is askedo nce more.
Yes, absolutely, the scene could have been done better. But, I think saying that it has absolutely no redeeming value might be a bit too far. I think they tried to make a point, and that point fell a little flat, because it created a connection between the player and Kratos that had never even been alluded to at any other point in the series. But, I think part of the point is that it's a quicktime event, and not a choice or an event with more freedom to make it unfold how you want it to. By putting you in his head, and then having him carry out his actions pretty much as he would have any way, it further makes the point; this is what you've been doing, for three games now. You've been party to unthinking, unfeeling, and inevitable violence. Ultimately, imo, the major failing there, right at the end, is that they tried to do something much deeper than anything else in the game implied they would go for. They tried to have a "whoa.... deep" moment, but the moment fell flat, because there was no setup for it.
“The original post implies the person posting it thinks the games want to be taken seriously. I've only played number 3, and it seems like the creators knew how silly it was. I thought it was a hilarious game.”
Kratos descended into rage and violence as a way to deal with the guilt he could never be rid of. And to be fair, Zeus was going to kill Kratos no matter what he did, due to being corrupted by the fear and paranoia released by Pandora's box. And in the end, Kratos forever freed humanity from the influence of the gods by sacrificing himself to release the hope he unknowingly took from the box. God of War started as a Greek tragedy, but wound up as a revenge & redemption tale with an almost literal cliffhanger. I'm wondering where the fourth game will go... Oh, and the prequels definitely add some more insight into the why and how of Kratos' rationale.
Uh... and who was it that released Pandora’s Box? Oh yeah Kratos, so Zeus going insane is all Kratos’ fault, also this quote from another comment: “The original post implies the person posting it thinks the games want to be taken seriously. I've only played number 3, and it seems like the creators knew how silly it was. I thought it was a hilarious game.“
Having a change to first person may symbolise the illusion of choice. Greek storytelling also has a lot to do with destiny and how futile choice really is. Kratos goes through his journey to become the symbol of violence, war and rage, becoming in effect the God of War. By having a player in first person commit the final act without choice, you could be showing what has to happen for the narrative to be complete. Even if you yourself wanted a different ending, that's not what destiny allowed. A great example of a person who was a master of this perspective switch was HP Lovecraft, but the idea of hopeless destiny has never been restricted to horror alone. EDIT: I'd add that this is just a devils advocate viewpoint. I'm fully aware of how GOW3 plays.
i disagree with some of this. i LOVE that kratos learns nothing. why does every story need to have some redemption part at the end? why must it fallow some ancient formula? i especially love the part where (spoilers) he is holding onto the little girl, pandora, who reminds him vaguely of this daughter, stopping her from being sucked into oblivion, when zues begins to taunt kratos. kratos is so overcome with anger that he lets go of the girl in a futile attempt to lash out at zues. its a beautiful moment. in any other story kratos would have overcome his rage to save the little girl, thus showing some growth and redemption. but no. she dies. kratos is nothing but a jerk. its the way he is, and that is why he is and anything less would not feel genuine. secondly, about the first person part, i thought it very much had meaning. as a person who had played through the series, by this time you really want to get back at zues. the game has built up to it so much that when it puts you into the shoes of kratos, you eagerly pummel zues' face until he dies. nobody hesitates here to ask, why am i in first person? they go for it! greedily! the game has built up the rage for so long that no longer does kratos want to kill zues, YOU want to kill zues. i think that move by the developers was actually very satisfying, and a good way of allowing you to take a small part in what it feels like to be so overcome with bloodlust you do something which you normally wouldnt do and might later regret. it may not be a greek tragedy, but so what, god of war as a whole is one of the most compelling revenge fantasies ever.
So what you are saying is they went the Death Note route to get you so immersed in the plot, somewhere you forgot about your morals and start to become part of the character and his/her ideas
exactly mrnight. you start to feel the things that the antihero/villan does and you applaud when his evil deeds come to fruition, when normally you might be disgusted by such acts. that level of immersion is a mark of a good story, imo, even if it doesn't fallow some per-determined Greek trope. however, i do see how some people would not be able to get into the character as much as me and i see how this effect could be lost on them.
You guys completely forgot to talk about GoW1's ending, which essentially ruined the whole Greek tragedy aspect by rewarding Kratos with godhood. In fact it comes out of left field so hard I think it was the producers wanting a happier ending, not the director.
*spoilers inbound* I think you forget the part where within 15 minutes of playing GOW2 you lose that godhood. As a whole, Kratos life still REALLY sucks. Even when he takes down Zeus he never truly wins *spoilers over*.
Actually, it is part of the tragedy. In mythology, a hero who dies (even through suicide) may enter the fields of Elysium and find eternal rest there. On the way, he may drink from Lethe, the river of forgetfulness and free himself of all shackles. When Athena forgives him (which she explicitly does) Kratos would have been allowed entrance to Elysium, since he became a Heros. But by making him an immortal, he is denied forgetfulness and will forever remember the horror of his mortal life. That is the height of his punishment.
***** This comment pretty much encapsulates what the ending of the first game was supposed to mean. The only problem I found with the ending was its presentation. It really should have emphasized the tragic irony of Kratos's fate - that, as he can't get away from his violent nature - the one thing that caused him pain the entirety of GoW's narrative - he would be doomed as the cause of violence and destruction. It's really weird looking back on it though, because the actual mood of the scene I felt didn't match with what the story was trying to say. Maybe it was a misunderstanding between the development team, but it was really weird.
I feel this kind of thing is an issue with a lot of RPGs, not having justifiable reasoning for your actions. Sure we all like to go on killing sprees from time to time but that's never thought of as part of our/our character's story. One of the worst examples of this I can think of is detonating the Megaton bomb in Fallout 3. I feel this would have been so much better if they had worked more on Mr. Burke (the character who convinces you to do so) giving him more quests and slowly through dialogue have him attempt to convince you that the residents of Megaton are impure, their exposure to radiation means they'll likely become ghouls and as a vault dweller you are one of the few examples of pure humanity left. If there's ever a time when someone's asking you to kill someone or in this case wipe out a whole town in a world where humanity is crippled "Lol I'll pay you bro" is almost never a good enough reason.
+ben zhong But this is the problem with most RPGs. You actions really don't matter. You can go on a mindless killing spree, but then return to the main plot as if nothing's happened. You can generally express quite ambivalent behavior and it really does not matter. Sure, it's part of the fun to be able to do crazy things just for the sake of it. But, I would prefer games in which your actions truly matter. That would make your character and the world around you much more alive and interesting.
Sorry but that's a load of bullshit. How is this problem endemic in RPGs? This trait is far more common in games like GTA, Saint's Row etc none of which are RPGs. In addtition JRPGs are super linear with the story so yeah again you dont really have the ability to go on mindless killing sprees. The only time your specific problem pops up is in maybe Fallout and i dont know Fable...(and that's not really an RPG)
ben zhong The problem is with motivation not choice. I generally don't do something in fallout, or some other games, unless I can justify it by some reasoning (generally not aligned with my personal political, social or philosophical views) If the only reason being given to me in game is money that's pretty poor. Imagine if you asked the former tribesmen in Caesars Legion what they think of the legion and they said "Yeah my friends and neighbours were slaughtered raped enslaved and crucified but I'm getting paid it's fine" Money is the weakest motivation especially when doing something morally questionable definitely when doing something undeniably wrong.
That's more of a problem with you then fallout and also money is the most powerful motivation of all what are you talking about look at the Spanish with South America look at the British with India look at colonisation in general . All these horrible things done for money. Even in the case of the tribesman in Caesars legions ... yeah that totally happened the Roman Empire would often recruit people from conquered lands by offering money and lands so i dont get your point...
kratos never feels remorse for killing the gods, he feels depression and anger that he is powerless to bring back his family, and none of the gods will help him, he never regretted killing ares, thats not why he jumped, he jumped because athena and zues deny him his reward of forgiveness of killig his family/making things back to how they should have been, after he finds out how uncaring and crummy the gods attitudes are he goes on a revenge streak, theres nothing wrong with him killing the gods, he saved human kind by de-establishing the arogant theology and giving humankind hope and power over their own lives, that is pure win for kratos, he took everything away from those who thought they could keep abusing human kind at their whims
but he didn't really save humanity in the end. because of his actions the world was in complete disarray only leaving the remnants of humanity the last vestiges of hope and having them to rebuild all that he destroyed both directly and indirectly. and in his wake left many innocent dead and the rest to scrounge for a way to survive in the chaos he created.
in god of war 1 he jumped not because of anger its because after all the killing, all the running and ALL THE FUCKING KILLING AGAIN, he got nothing no hope no reward just him his memories of sins, that my friends is guilt and impotence
Well in the God of War Universe, the gods basically control everything in the world, so when Kratos kills a god, the difference in the world is shown. When he kills Poseidon the sea is turned into one gigantic clusterfuck. When Helios dies the weather turns permanently cloudy. Each god had a role in that world, and one by one Kratos destroys it. Then again I've heard people make arguments that by killing himself, Kratos restores hope to humanity.
And let's not forget the events of Ghost of Sparta, which serve to only fuel the fire of his rage against the gods. (Basically, what happened to his mother and his brother)
Chase Langlands Don't forget Chains of Olympus, where he had to forever give up an afterlife in Elysium with his daughter so he could save the world from crazy bitch-queen Persephone.
I think this is a clear-cut case of sequelitis. The first game had a clear, well developed character arc. It was complete. It was final. The vision was realized. This made it an instant hit. As a result, greedy executives with no vision beyond "MOAR MONEY!" demanded a sequel, and then another, with no understanding at all of what made the first game good. The problem is that the people running the show are not artists. They aren't even smart. They're just rich.
TheSmackerlacker To be fair in GoW 1 there was a symbol on the floor of a man fighting Zeus. I think there was always an idea to leave it open for others.
TheSmackerlacker You can make a case for the genre as a whole. The gameplay is deep if you crank up the difficulty a bit. it's not Dynasty Warriors repetitive, but some combos are pretty overused
I think it is important to understand that some people do not change. Kratos was never the hero of our story. He is a terrible person with very few redeeming qualities. Whenever we see an opportunity for him to change, he'll fuck it over. He truly is terrible, and whatever we might sympathize with him for, we'll still ultimately know that he's the villain. But what I truly like about God of War as a whole, is that you are the villain. You may not realize it, but you are. And you'll justify not being a villain through whatever means necessary, just like Kratos.
But what if this time he does redeem himself in the new series? What if he actually tries to grow, to try to make sure his son doesn't follow in his footsteps, to perhaps learn to be better than he was? Redemption is a long and hard road paved with many obstacles and reminders of our failings, and the new game demonstrates that more so than any of the original games.
He's still the same. People misunderstand most about maturity, that they think it means content like violence sex or drugs. That is not what maturity means. Maturity deals with HOW that content is presented. Thank you so much for this message. I only hope some can understand it especially if games are to be in fact seen as an art medium.
This is a great analysis of the original GOW trilogy. I did think however there were too many split second artworks with words that I couldn't read in time and were very distracting to your narration. I would recommend not putting words with the artwork, and if you do, give each word ~2 seconds worth of screentime. Just my 2 cents..
He also tried to kill himself because he couldn't live with said nightmares. If they had relieved him of them, then he wouldn't have the revelation EC claims that he had.
I love the GoW franchise, but by the end of GoW3, I hated Kratos. He has no redeeming values other than his sheer perseverance and that he is capable of love under very specific circumstances. He's easily the bad guy of 2 and 3. The thing about hope makes perfect sense given the myth of Pandora's Box, but it only came about at the end of GoW3, far too late to really give it any importance in the narrative.
That is the freaking point of Kratos. Did you even actually understand the story or did you just think because he is the protagnoist he is supposed to be good. His tragic flaw was his own rage and inability to accept his own faults. That is why the latest two God of War are good because we get to see a side of him that was covered by his rage during the trilogy.
I know this is a year old but you got the story wrong in my mind. Kratos was at best a murder wind up doll for the Gods to punish Ares for stepping into Athena's domain. And in spite of that, he is honored in death on Olympus and when they bribed their contract killer with power, he started roughing up all the gods for denying him his choice. This sparks kill streak number two, where his will actually gets broken near late game over what he did to a spartan soldier. His drive was restored when he was coached by the Titans to aim the grief at Zeus and the third game comes along with him betrayed by the titans on top of it! By now Kratos may see this tug o war as unending unless both sides are killed off. Add onto this that the last item of the box is coveted by Athena after the Zeus kill, and you can see the gears turning... With this power, a new pantheon that may deal the same fate to others as this last one did to him is too much of a risk to take. By killing himself, this one power gets handed out to humanity, instead of the Gods, to form the world in the wake of this death. Certainly not his end game goal but something to ponder. Kratos's win is a clear Phryyic Victory.
I disagree with this video. Not all characters in entertainment media have to have a "redeeming" quality to be part of a good story. Sometimes a great story is meant to just be told, not to be associated with. We can just enjoy a story without putting ourselves in that story.
Let's be real here, the series turned into a cash cow: it went from Greek tragedy to Greed tragedy. You can 'disagree', but you can't stop facts from being facts.
BrEnNo1023 Actually I don't disagree with that part. 99% of game franchise are cash cows. They are made to produce profit and God Of War is no exception. I disagreed with the video due to the posters exclaiming that because Kratos has no redeeming qualities by the end of his journey, his story is bad. I might be paraphrasing that a bit but that's the take away that I took from this video.
Rain - Man I feel, personally, that the unique nature of video game storytelling makes it pretty much mandatory for the player to have some form of empathy with the character in order for them to get anything out of the story. I empathized with Raz in Psychonauts, with Alucard in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, with Cloud and Yuna in Final Fantasy VII and X (respectively), and even with the Hero of Bowerstone in Fable II despite being basically a self-insert for the player. But Kratos? I couldn't stand him. By the end of the first post-boss fight cutscene in the first God of War, I WANTED him to die. I WANTED his quest to end in failure because he was a remorseless, bloodthirsty, unforgivable dick. That was when I put down the controller and stopped playing. Good gameplay, for me, can't save a game if it has a horrible story (I'd rather have no story at all if that's the case), and an unlikable main character will kill a story for me.
But the story of God of War was intended to be a tragedy, you were intended to sympathize with Kratos. Something that the third game fails at miserably
“The original post implies the person posting it thinks the games want to be taken seriously. I've only played number 3, and it seems like the creators knew how silly it was. I thought it was a hilarious game.”
Honestly, why is it that bad for a character to NOT learn something? For a player to not "learn" something. The ending of God of War 3 made some bad stylistic choices, sure, but I don't think it's necessarily bad to have something like a monologue about forgiveness and hope, disregarded by a character who has steeped himself in violence and brutality. Honestly, it's an archaic way of looking at things, that a character has to be a better person, or has to grow or learn something at the end, for it to be a good story. Fuck that. I'm not saying character growth isn't good, but why does it have to be positive? That just feels like trying to dictate writing, which is always going to be perceived in different ways by different people.
I used to be on the same page as Daniel here. I am Greek so this goes double for me. I was raised into believing that the Greek Pantheon was benevolent until I red some stuff about how many kids Zeus had or about the way the greek gods punished Arachne, Adonis, Hercules, Ulesseus and tons of others. They were portrayed as teenagers abusing their power. Which was fine for ancient times. I didn't exactly agree with the portrayal of gods in GOW II forward and the things I was forced to do in III were not my cup of tea. What kind of guy keeps going even when he sees that his actions destroy the world ? And then I red an article on Kotaku which shed new light on the subject. Kratos in GOW II and III is no longer a man in the strictest sense of the world. David Jaffe used to say that he would have him become the embodiment of death if he worked on the sequel. And that's what happens here but in a way that is . . . well, relatable. Kratos is a soldier. Much like Brando in Apocalypse now or D'Onofrio in FMJ, war has and will leave him scarred, regardless of how much baggage is behind him or what he has witnessed. There will not be a 'I have seen everything' when it comes to war. You don't just stop doing what you were accustomed to doing because you have reached the peak of the mountain, ergo, killing a god. It is not how war works and it is not how post traumatic stress disorder works. Kratos is suffering from PTSD through the entirety of GOW II and III. I have met people like this, they are not in touch with the world around them. Their perception of reality is distorted and they follow a course of action that seems logical only to them. Same things would be heard in VA or AA meeting, me thinks. Kratos has killed his way forward for most of his adult life, being a Spartan general and all. His violent life coming to a halt is not something he can come to grips with. The last time he tried it, the gods denied him the satisfaction and made him a god. Dan is right, Kratos has no redeeming value. But that doesn't stop him from being an interesting character throughout the trilogy and not a caricature. This is not a character like Asura, who is angry for the sake of being angry. This is a man whose inner peace has repeatedly been denied. He is a bit like Anton from No Country For Old Men, he is the way he is because he sees no other path he can follow. And whatever other path there was, is now gone. He is a bad guy and not many games give you the opportunity to play as one. His actions are not always justified, much less logical but these are the notions that someone who doesn't see another course of action goes through. What is a gigantic plothole is not the fact that Kratos killed 90% of the Greek pantheon. It's why, when presented with a time machine, he chose to bring Gaia and the Titans to his own time instead of trying to save his family. That's something I never understood.
+Katsas Georgios Do the Greeks still believe in the Pantheon? Is it still practiced as a religion? I don't mean to offend by the way, I'm legitimately curious, being American myself.
+Pie Pierrot (Eta) Well, some do. It is an extremely short percentage of the population though. Ever since the Byzantium came through here, our religion has shifted to Christianity. The Orthodox kind.
Bear with me here: Imagine if the final battle were to be Kratos fighting Zeus, all the while Zeus gives exposition into Kratos' misdeeds, mistakes, and former revelations; the battle continues, periodically Zeus keeps giving the exposition during breaks in the fight; making more sense, Kratos starts to give in to the guilt, the urge to fight starts to slowly leave him, so much so that he barely has the drive to use the blades, and they go limp; a little more dialogue, and Kratos begs for some type of forgiveness, having finally comprehended what he has done to everyone in his blind rage; Zeus feeling pity for this husk of a man gives him some sort of a choice, maybe Zeus can bring his family back from Hades or something redeeming in exchange for Kratos receiving a severe punishment (i.e. Prometheus' punishment), maybe being able to see them forever in his torture, or he can be sent to the underworld and maybe rule the underworld. The choice being saving his family in exchange for eternal damnation and pain, or he takes power, but the souls of those closest to him are completely obliterated and he will never truly be complete. I can see it all play out.
In God of War, Kratos had a simple goal- kill Ares and avenge his family. His reward of becoming the new God of War was just an unexpected perk. Then God of War 2 happened, and Kratos's goal (kill Zeus for trying to kill him) was... understandable? I guess? The third movie (kill ALL THE THINGS [except Aphrodite]) was just weird. Kratos was so consumed with getting even with Zeus that there really was no ending for the game after Kratos accomplished the goal. No godhood, no peace, just... nothing. I'm SOOO glad God of War 4 gave Kratos a simple goal- take his son to a mountain to spread his dead wife's ashes- and that he was much more rational than the rage monster he became near the end of 2 and all of 3.
I've been thinking about subscribing for a while, but just now I realized I should do it. You guys really are a good channel, that deserves a new subscriber. I don't really like subscribing big channels, but you are not that big and quite worth it.
I am kinda interested about what you think about the channel now, if you even respond after 8 years. What are your thoughts on this channel as of now, as it was very different before. Was subscribing worth it to you? Are you still subscribed?
I will say this, Kratos does come off as a bit more sympathetic if you play Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta, as it does add some extra background as to why Kratos is such a raging prick in the second game. In Chains of Olympus, he was forced to give up any chance of being with his daughter again in the afterlife in exhange for saving the world from annihilation at the request of the gods. In Ghost of Sparta, Zeus turned Kratos' mother into a monster, forcing Kratos to have to kill her. The gods also took Kratos' brother from him due to a birthmark he had and a prophecy that "a marked warrior would bring about the end of Olympus" and proceeded to have him tormented for decades by the god of death, Thanatos. Then when Kratos finally reuinites with his brother, he is killed in the ensuing battle with Thanatos. And after all this, after he just buried his brother, Athena congratulates Kratos for "letting go of his mortal ties to the world" and tells him he is "ready to be a god." With all that happens before and after God of War 1, it's no surprise that Kratos has isolated himself on Olympus. And when Zeus finally betrays him out of fear (he thinks Kratos wants to become King of Olympus, which Kratos has no intention of) and kills him, as well as slaughtering every Spartan alive, of course Kratos would focus on killing Zeus. Kratos himself also said he didn't wish to destroy Olympus, that he only sought the death of Zeus. When Athena tells him that the gods will stop him, that's when he decides that "If all on Olympus would deny me, then all of Olympus will die." Still a good video overall. Hopefully you come back to review how Kratos has matured in the new God of War.
But when a lot of these story threads are tacked on after the first game's atrocities and the finality of Kratos killing Zeus in the third, it just feels like filler.
The premise of this video is wrong in its execution. Name a painter of skill, then someone that isn't skillfull at painting. Compare a painting from both people. Just because one lacks skill doesn't mean is bad, doesn't have value, or is devoid of meaning. Both are art. Both have value even if one is less skillful than the other. Saying GoW3 has no redeeming value is snobbery. If it had no value, the game wouldn't exist, and in fact wouldn't cause EC to create a 8.5 minute video about it. It surely wouldn't have had a remastered release in '15 or an at least 80% positive review rating overall. What is has is different values from the first game in the series. And indeed different values from the video creators themselves. Just as much that some people enjoy the first game more than the third, many enjoyed the third more than the first and equally some enjoyed all three equally, but in different ways. Much like the game series story arch itself, the video also leaves its own premise from the start and becomes a rather soapbox style critique on how the 3rd installment is a bad game. This was, by description, a discussion of the triumph and failing of storytelling. But by criticizing Kratos for acting like a flawed man-child and claiming the game itself has no value or the developers are wrong because of the character's actions is incorrect. Storytelling is not the plot. Storytelling is the mechanism of how the plot is delivered to the player. Maybe Kratos is just a flawed man-child that takes no responsibility in his own actions and responds to everything with violence. Does that make the game bad? Does that make the designers wrong? No. It makes Kratos an immature prick, and the game a realistic lens of that character. Make sure that the topic is correctly in focus when creating such things. A video on storytelling should only be how the game tells the story, not the subject matter in the plot itself or how it went afield of how you think the story should have gone. That leads to head-canon and fanfiction and a different series of videos entirely.
There is nothing that could make me agree with this post more. BRAVO! A lot of people forget that a good story doesn't have to be an enjoyable story. Similarly, a lot of people forget that for a main Character to be a good Character, they don't have to be an enjoyable Character, or even fall on the good end of the moral spectrum. The notion that for a Video Game Protagonist to be good in that role, they have to have "redeeming qualities" is far too constrictive. Seriously, people should look up "Villain Protagonist" -- it's a thing, it exists, and reading what it entails is bound to be very interesting to a lot of people.
David C you wasted so much time But I disagree with your art statement some art is just bad either because of skill or a lack of creativity from the artist, art like storytelling can be objectively bad
Very true, but that doesn't make a very fun gameplay. Unless, of course, you made a Greek mythology themed horror game about a mortal who pissed off one of the gods. That'd work.
Then you play newest God of War. They curbed the spectacle creep a bit. They added on tragic backstory. They made him start over and try to have a peacefull life. Then he was forced to fight demons of his past that caught up with him while trying to prevent the same fate for his 2nd child. I was glued to the screen.
If the GoW 1 Kratos sees the other Kratos's from 2, 3 and Ascension he would feel ashamed... and smash them instantly. I didn't like Kratos enough but I feel I want to replay God of War 1 after this great video.
I feel like somebody who watched this must have been a driving force behind GoW (2018). "No! You don't understand! They're RIGHT! I...I have to fix it." Studio guy: "...I don't know..." "What if I use Norse mythology? That's *really* popular right now." "SOLD!"
Good points, but the switch to first person at the end of GOW 3 did have a purpose. It was meant to symbolize the terminal point in Kratos' quest for revenge. Sure Kratos had already done incalculable amounts of damage to Greece already, but, Zeus would still be able to fix it. When Kratos kills Zeus, the first person view is meant to symbolize that, now, there is truly no going back. Kratos killing Zeus means he destroys Greece, permanently.
I'm a little late but I just beat God of War 3 remastered and I think the point of the finale of the fight is when you're prompted to mash the circle button even after the entire screen goes red with blood, the prompt never goes and you have to decide on your own to stop hitting Zeus, and that might be why the perspective shifts to first person, to convey Kratos deciding to end his vengeance.
I don't mind remorseless killing, but Kratos should have shown some regret at FIRST, building up to the endless murder. Or, alternatively, have Kratos slaughter the gods, look at what he's done, and at least do something that reminds us he's human, and maybe realizes he's butt fucked the world.
I wonder what it'd be like for Extra Credits to make a retrospective and explore how God of War 2018 evolved from this early direction to create one of the most meaningful game stories ever.
Comparing this video to the one about innovation: In the innovation video you mentioned that the indie developers should sign over all rights to their idea to the AAA supporting them. But wouldn't that create the exact problem you are describing here? That someone lacking the original developers vision takes over? I am no expert on games by ANY means, so I may be completely wrong. I like this channel a lot, and I learn a lot from it but that innovation video always made me just think "What? No! That can't be the solution. Lean and hungry? Signed over rights? That sounds like a nightmare." Far far to easy for the people who already have power to abuse the ones who already have little power. I have seen a lot of people voice these concerns in the comments, and while I am no expert, some of these people seam to know what they are talking about. I am not asking you to retreat your entire statement, but maybe... answer a few of the comments or make a video explaining what you meant? OK far too long message. Leaving now. Bye.
The redeeming part about that sudden shift to first person is that if you keep hitting Zeus, the game doesn't end. That entire previous section is about Kratos letting go of his rage and then they shove you inside Kratos and test to see if you were paying attention.
BREAKING BAD SPOILERS:You could probably view it as one. The total and utter destruction of one from a fairly powerful position. Yeah, Walter is pretty much annihilated.
Tristan Phillips i'm not the one who made the original comment but if you can, please do. I get Greek tragedy now but what is modern tragedy? How does breaking bad fit into that?
Well, it's harder for me to explain modern tragedy, i'm far more akin to Greek. But, modern falls under our hero starting with nothing, often gaining nothing, losing everything, and stuff along those lines. If it was Greek tragedy he would've started strong or healthy, but BB had the main character ill and poor, and he had to rise up, and inevitably fall down. The real breaking point is the end. (SPOILERS) He gets revenge and saves his sidekick, while in Greek tragedy he would've either left forever, or died. He does still die, but all that heroism at the end is typical to Greek, more modern, a happy-ish ending.
Here's a quote from John carmack, a dev in ID software: "A story in a game is like a story in a porn movie, it's expected to be there, but it's not that important"
While I do agree, slightly, in regards to the GoW III there is still one preceding and rather massive plot hole that occurs at the end of the second game. Kratos gains the use of a gate that can take him back in time. To any when he wants. And he doesn't go back in time, deck himself in the head, and save his family. WHY!?
Going back to this video, I have to say the art and caption selection is absolutely wonderful. This is probably my favourite EC in terms of visual companionship to the verbal content.
Did you guys even play the original God of War to completion? Kratos was in no way remorseful for killing Ares. He was all too happy to do it. He attempted suicide because even doing what the gods (mostly Athena) asked, he was still abandoned to suffer. His suffering was the fact that he was tricked into killing his family, and the guilt-driven memory of that drove him mad. He thought he was promised that in exchange for killing Ares, his visions of his past would be removed. They were not. Therefore, he lost all hope and attempted to end his life. That said, I have to mostly agree with you about God of War III's ending. While I actually appreciated the developers trying to use Pandora's hope line as a message for Kratos to accept, the rest of the ending was completely weak and poorly done. For all that talk about hope, Kratos doesn't have any at the end, despite being full of it earlier. In the end, he still kills himself by falling from the cliff. To be honest, the ending in its entirety was poorly done, except for diving into Kratos' psyche and him remembering Pandora's message as the only thing he could still cling to. This is coming from someone who very recently finished God of War III but has little love for the series. I think you guys should try to pay more attention to game narrative because it seems like a lot of things you state were wrong or utterly missing, I felt were delivered fairly well. I also think you fail to understand basic characterisations and story plots given. There were many story- or world-enhancing elements I've noticed in some games that it seems you didn't catch for one reason or another. I mean absolutely no insult with this. I'm sure there are things you notice about the same games that I miss. I just think there were enough clues and statements given, and I feel as if you guys overlooked those. Again, that said, you guys were spot on with some things like the ending of III being poorly done. As someone who fancies myself as a storycrafter, I understand what they were trying to achieve, but I think they could have tried harder. Still friends?
well... the reason the story is so bad is simply because they did not need a story. they just wanted money so they kicked out the expensive director and just made a money machine. I guess the extra credits team already know this but now you know as well :D
Maybe the tragedy the trilogy is trying to convey is that despite everything that’s happened and everything he’s experienced Kratos can’t escape who he is on a fundamental level. That even murdering his own family can’t provoke such change and that no amount of vengeance can either. Maybe the shift to first person combined with the removal of any freedom for the player is to further cement that notion that Kratos is a ludicrous, violent murderer and that there is nothing he can do to escape that reality. Maybe it’s a metaphor for the inevitability of our own base nature. The reason Kratos remains a mindlessly violent murderer is because he is incapable of escaping that most basic nature and the shift to first person with no ability to do anything other than be a murderer further demonstrates that fact. It seems to be a commentary on the inevitability having to be who you are, a statement of pure determinism. As Achilles says in Troy, “I chose nothing. I was born and this is what I am.” Kratos is a madman, a murderer, a purely violent being and there’s nothing he can do to escape that reality.
Oooh! As far as Kratos' characterization being discarded in favor of a caricature, we can't forget the bit in God of War III where he murders a random girl to open a door. Because, I mean, it's not like one of the first character traits established for him is that he will go to nearly any lengths to try to save women. I mean, that entire boat sequence in the first game? Mass hallucination caused by swamp gas.
Aside from the brutal killing of Zeus, I disagree about games 2 and 3. Kratos was a Spartan general, his duties were "fighting and killing" to conquer. After his familicide, the gods lie and tell him the way to redeem himself is to "fight and kill" Ares. Even after he's killed by Ares, the gods revive him. Later on when he tries to suicide, the gods deny him that too. His whole life has been about fighting and killing, and without a purpose that's what he does when he's a god. He dies yet again and the titans say, hey are you a pussy? go there and fight and kill some more. Kratos becomes tragic in the sense that he's Rambo, a killing machine that doesn't know what else to do, because each time that's the only option they give him, with even death, an escape, being denied to him.
Can you guys please revisit this video? Some of the comment responses on here are brilliant, and I personally think you guys did a pretty haphazard job by dismissing the first person view at the end because you were trying to fit your own narrative.
I can think of an easy way to insert choice into that final first person perspective scene with quick time events: have the fail state be the choice. Have it so that NOT pushing the buttons leads to him deciding "No, I won't rage murder kill this guy" That would actually be interesting thematically. Because as videogame players, we are trained to do quick time events. It is what everything we have done up to this point as told us is the answer. And we don't dare to NOT do it, since we just went through a long and arduous journey (we played the last level, creating progress and we watched cutscenes). That would be a perfect mirror for Kratos' propensitytowards violence- it is something he as ingrained as 'the only option' into his psyche. Even if he can later recognize it was a bad move, it doesn't instantly change that knee jerk reaction. For Kratos, violence is so ingrained that it is a big, instantly done button press to murder someone, but not murdering someone is a carefully considered act of restraint (the opposite of normal human behavior)
TheFableGamer just because they use a console doesn't mean they're a peasant look at me and my family, WE'VE PROBABLY HAD EVERY FRIGGIN' CONSOLE THERE IS and we've all got computers
I guess if the developers wanted to continue on the whole culturally-significant-tragedy-through-action-game motif, that would probably mean finding a new protagonist after Kratos finishes his character arc and is driven to despair at the end of GoW1. Which would create its own host of problems, because Kratos is a damn iconic character, and how would you sell a sequel where he's _not_ the player character? Really, GoW is a victim of its own success. If GoW1 was a critically received game but not as phenomenal in sales (or maybe vice-versa?), then maybe the potential _God of War_ sequels could feel more free to leave Kratos's story finished and explore other characters and stories. Like, a contrasting sequel protagonist that has his or her focus on another pantheon, like Celtic or Egyptian or Chinese or Nordic. It could've given a nice booster shot to the franchise's longevity and kept Kratos from becoming stale.
God of War is my favourite series of all time. ... and this is my favourite Extra Credits show of all time. "I mean, are we asking too much of a video game here? -NO... we aren't... and we should never ask that question again." -6:15 Haha, brilliant!
I think that the switch to first person is one of the better things with the ending. There is no end to the time you can punch Zeus, you can continue to beat him over and over and over and the game won’t progress until you stop.
I disagree, here's why. The game was about Kratos freeing humanity from an oppressive arrogant pantheon of gods. He cares for Pandora and he goes from the first games redemption to blind hate to liberator of men. He lived in a time where the gods were everything and he felt they abandoned him in his most dire moments. After that he realises what the gods are (overpowerd people) and that they are nothing special. He goes on a quest to free humanity and bring hope to the land. The end of the third game is not a destroyed world. It is a world without gods, and a world where human beings can shape their own lives. If you look you can see the souls of the people flying around and that shows that they are no longer bound by the gods..... I'm rambling now and I think I've more or less explained my thoughts.
I don’t think Kratos ever felt guilty about the people he killed during his quest in GOW1; all he wanted was to be cured of the nightmares that fuelled his guilt over killing his family, and the gods couldn’t/wouldn’t so he resorted to suicide.
I think that most Hack and Slash Heroes are very one dimensional. Kratos is Rage. Bayonetta is Sassy. Dante is Cocky. I also feels it helps to have characters like this when your games are so over the top. It gives the gameplay a different view when you know why you are murdering everything in site.
After playing and reading reviews of the 2018 God of War, it kinda feels like Cory Barlog watched this video and was inspired to address this exact problem
So then, Kratos is a murderous rampaging villain. That explains his presence in Mortal Kombat. Then again, one of my characters is like that until he sees what he has done, what he has accomplished, what he has destroyed, and calms down, so that he may take responsibility for his actions and lead his new-found people. But he passes on shortly after, leaving the bloody memory of his actions fresh in the minds of those he conquered while his daughter assumes her father's role as a leader.
Not everyone in the Mortal Kombat universe are rampaging villains. There are good people there, too, who are merciless in combat but have more human sides to them when they're not punching holes in each other. Sonya Blade, Johnny Cage, Liu Kang, Raiden, Kitana, Jade, Jax, Kung Lao, Kabal, Stryker...pretty much everyone on Team 'Good' in MK is fundamentally a good person who just happens to do horrible things to their enemies when they relly, really deserve it.
Ok. 2 problems here. 1. You forgot about the PSP title Ghost of Sparta, which actually gives reasons for his actions in the events of God of War 2 and 3. To give a bit of brief context, Kratos goes look for his long lost brother, who he thought died and feels guilty for not protecting him. By the time he is reunited with his brother, Thanos, the god of death, kills the brother and the gods do nothing to help him. In fact, they were behind the kidnapping and imprsionment of his brother and now that they see that the last of his family member is now dead, he can continue to focus on being a God. Which angers him even more. 2. While, yes 3 isn’t the greatest game ever, I would consider that the 2018 reboot/remake/reimagining will actually develop him even more. Going from a Greek tragedy to a Norse tale of wisdom and truth. What I’m trying to say is, these guys are claiming that the fact that Kratos’ actions in the sequels have no significance when they actually do (and yet they claim to be professional gamers?). And saying that Kratos becomes a mindless killer that will never be redeem is a little far fetched considering that the next game in 2018 will make him redeemable now that he has a new family (or at least, his son for now). I think the new game shows that Kratos is trying to be redeemed.
I cringed so hard watching an interview with the makers of god of war and them calling it a classic Greek tragedy. Like no, those need hubris...the hero needs to fail because of themselves. It’s not just a sad story where people die. Kratos maybe reflects, it was crammed into the last moment and it’s debatable. It’s an engaging game but it’s not a classic tragedy. It’s just playing as one in the first game, and not anything at all in the second and third. I see god of war as a good example of what not to do when attempting to write tragedy.
What do you mean? There was Hubris in God of War. When he went to burn down the village/temple to Athena he was at the front door of the temple when an oracle told him that he would regret going in there, having excessive pride in himself, Kratos went into the temple and killed his family. While this was orchestrated by the gods, it was his arrogance and lack of discipline that ruined his life. Before that, when he was a child, the oracle told Zeus that a man bearing the mark Kratos had would bring the end of the gods. Well Kratos at that time didnt have the mark, but his brother did. After they took his brother he got a tattoo of his mark as a tribute to him. The gods did not realize that they were the cause of that prophacy and the that the prophecy was talking about Kratos. Throughtout the entire trilogy he has had many moments of self reflection. One moment of this was when he had to kill his mother after she was cursed and turned into a monster for telling him who his father was, and another time after his brother died. He realizes through the whole story that he has become a monster. All he wanted was to have his wife and daughter, he only wanted to be a parent but Ares wanted him to become a perfect soldier, and in order to do so Kratos would need to lose all ties to the mortal realm i.e his family.
I like all the videos I've seen so far but I feel that the analysis of this series is a bit narrow. Okay so looking at how the third game talks about hope through pandora makes sense considering that the myth actually mentions that Pandora's box held all the evils of the world but also housed hope. I'm sure I don't have to go into lengthy details about the plot but the third game does go full circle as far that theme goes. In the first game the Kratos is Hopeful that he can find redemption but once he finds it he is realizes that what he really wanted, freedom from the guilt of murdering his family, was not what the gods were offering. This is what turns him into a man seeking vengeance after he is betrayed by Zeus. Look at why Zeus betrays him. Is Kratos really that bad I'm comparison to Aries? Well there is no context so fuck it haha. But Kratos was doing what the God of war should probably do: death and destruction to his enemies. He still has remorse for people who had never betrayed him like the Spartan Captain whom he killed out of self defense, but every instance like that strengthens his resolve to murder the god Zeus. And Zeus is the only god he intended to kill. All the other gods got in his way and since "the gods can't be trusted" he just takes them out of the equation. But I've digressed too much. The first game is about redemption but living with the mistakes you've made, the second game is vengeance for broken trust and promises, and the third installment is hope and letting go. If my last statement towards the last game doesn't make sense just think back to the final QuickTime event where Zeus gets his face pummeled. It only ends after you stop punching his face. I seriously spent 20 minutes doing it and only stopped out of frustration and confusion when my screen was just a red glow, but when I stopped the game moved forward. So I agree with some points in the video but I feel that this analysis is kind of shallow and a bit narrow. They also never mentioned how David Jaffe actually wanted Kratos to kill all the gods and then become the personification of death before witnessing the birth of Jesus as a sing of…wait for it…hope haha. Seriously just look at the interviews with the game directors.
This franchise is THE exemple to be followed in the future, the form they did to improve the story without denying it's fails, but instead using then in the narrative as a important aspect of Kratos personality is just fantastic. Not just because it is good, but also because it brings to light a way to turn bad writing into good plot and characters for a sequel game, I don't remenber any other good exemple of this in games before.
You made very good points, but I don't agree that much. Okay, yes, by the third instalment, Kratos is very much irredeemable. But if you play the whole saga in chronological order (Ascension, Chains Of Olympus, GoW 1, Ghost Of Sparta, GoW 2 and GoW 3) you'll notice something: Kratos is ALWAYS screwed over. For example, in Ascension, it is obvious that Kratos is not the same character as in GoW 3, he's more human and you can see him suffer with the weight of his actions revealed to him at the end of the game. In Chains of Olympus, he has the chance to see his daughter again, but must leave her or otherwise the world will be destroyed by Persephone. In GoW 1, he only obeys the gods because he thinks they can make all his nightmares about the killing of his family disappear. In Ghost Of Sparta he's forced to kill his mother and when he finally found Deimos, his brother, (that was the objective throughout the whole game), he dies 15 minutes later and after defeating Thanatos Athena still can't erase his nightmares. In GoW 2 he's killed by Zeus because he feared that Kratos would bring Olympus' doom. GoW 3 is all about Kratos stopping at nothing to have his vengeance against Zeus. His rage led him to lost his humanity. Only when he finally kills Zeus, he stares at his hands and looks all the damage he has done to the world thinking "What have I done?", And commits suicide to give the power of hope to the remainings of humanity. Obviously, the spinoffs and the prequel have "compelling" stories to make Kratos somewhat redeemable, because they realized that he was an asshole through most of the main trilogy, so they tried to show his drift from humanity to justify his actions.
Except his attempted suicide in 3 is kinda redundant, since he already tried back in 1. Also, the fact that by the end of the main trilogy, the gameplay and story beats brought by the Ascension, Chains of Olympus and Ghost of Sparta were already a bit stale and redundant. We know Kratos defeats Zeus The Big Bad "King of the Gods" in 3 and we know of his shame of his actions in 1. At that point, everything else is mostly recycled filler.
The first God of War is the only game that is really worthy to play in the franchise anyway. There are way better Hack n' Slash series out there such as Devil May Cry, Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta yet this one is the most popular. This game also sets up for dumbing down hack n' slash games and making people seems to think that every Hack n' Slash game is a rip off of this.
I love both styles - obviously the latest one in 2018 is more complex and relateable but being vengeance incarnate in the most brutal fashion can be just as satisfying. If it doesn't speak to your literary sensibility, that's understandable. A more poetic way I look at it is, this is Sony's Troy. An explanation for the fall of the gods at the hands of Kratos(player) that will reshape the destinies of all future generations.
I actually enjoyed the scenes between Kratos and Pandora because you can tell her positivity in the face of hardships does grate on Kratos yet he can't bring himself to harm her; be it because of this attitude or that she reminds him of his dead daughter.
and the complaint is that, we are pretty sure Kratos is the killer. Since the linear gameplay did not allow us to do anything but what Kratos wanted to do. Randomly putting us into first person is definitely just a game gimmick because you can't just shove us in that situation and try to make us all accomplices cuz we're not. We never had a choice but to do the damn quick time events ;) cuz i sure as hell didn't want to slaughter some of those gods, but... Kratos!
But if we were killer then who was phone?? No but seriously, you can't just throw in a twist at the end without building up to it. Unless it changes your interpretation of past events, it's just nonsense.
the8u9 No, you are. The only way to win is to set the controller down. Why does Spec Ops: The Line get praised for the same device, but GoW3 is irredeemable for it? Oh, right, because Kotaku doesn't like it.
they probably weren't going for this, but sometimes when the villain realizes they are the villain, rather than change, they either will end their life or get even worse because they can't accept the reality of their actions. maybe in between 1 & 2 kratos was broken/burnt out, and then eventually he subconsciously twisted things in his mind to give him meaning again. It potentially shows the desolate reality of that mentality. Revenge is a never ending vicious cycle. He first seeks revenge for what they made him do, and then in two seeks revenge for what he did but accuses them of forcing him to do. The first person view could make you reflect on yourself. The player continues the madness, excusing their actions as just playing a character. but when the perspective switches, they might consider the possibility that they themselves have become corrupted.
