No, The Holdovers was not plagiarized 

Explanation of Tatiana Siegel's coverage of the Melissa Barrera situation, pinned since some people asked for it: Lucky for you, I originally wrote a segment of this video that went into more detail but ended up cutting it for time. So here's a summary: Basically Barrera had been posting on social media in support of Palestine, and as a result was fired from the next Scream sequel by the production company Spyglass Media Group, who characterized her posts as antisemitic (of course this is semi-subjective but I sincerely believe that they weren't, and in fact Barrera had also posted in support of Jewish victims of 10/7 and highlighted the antisemitism of conflating all Jewish people with the actions of the Israeli gov.) Barerra's firing was pretty heavily criticized by fans, the general public, and many prominent industry figures, with 1,300 artists signing a letter in protest. But subsequently, our girl Tatiana Siegel wrote three different articles about this, all clearly biased against Barrera. First, there was a more general article about a couple prominent cases of people in the film industry being iced out for supporting Palestine/criticizing Israel, including Melissa Barrera (variety.com/2023/film/news/hollywood-divide-over-israel-melissa-barrera-1235804452/). There's some general biased framing in this one, mainly positioning any accusations or suspicions of antisemitism against pro-Palestine industry figures with the assumption that those suspicions are fact (“...the hostile rhetoric surrounding Israel,” “the lack of solidarity,” she says Barerra “floated an antisemitic trope” like it's indisputable, instead of one bad faith interpretation of her words), while treating the perspectives of pro-Palestine industry figures like subjective feelings or beliefs (“They believed she was being railroaded” they “feel a kinship with the Palestinian cause” they “believe Israel is the aggressor.”) It's also worth noting that Siegel interviewed FIVE pro-Israel industry people for the article, while only doing the same for ONE person who was pro-Palestine. Then Siegel was actually the one to break Spyglass Media's statement on Barrera's firing that called her antisemitic (variety.com/2023/film/news/scream-producers-explain-melissa-barrera-fired-antisemitism-1235804914/) I mostly just think it's a little convenient that Siegel happened to seek out this statement from Spyglass, and also the headline is pretty inflammatory. Her third and (so far) final article about it is from February 2nd: 'Melissa Barrera Incites More Controversy With New Social Media Posts, Sparking Heated Debate at WME' (variety.com/2024/film/news/melissa-barrera-controversy-social-media-posts-uproar-wme-1235894339/) This one is just outrageous. This is not neutral language! Absolutely nothing about Barrera's posts constituted "incitement", but if you're a journalist at a major publication you have the power to just say that and have people trust that it's true. Throughout the article she throws around terms like “incite” “controversy” “heated” “under fire” “incendiary” “explosive” “inflammatory rhetoric," it's incredibly opinionated language. What's more, the premise of this article is basically that Barrera's agency were considering dropping her. But from what I can tell, this was based entirely on unsubstantiated rumors. Nothing ever came of this, and Barrera is still with WME. Siegel just cites "sources" and "one insider." What a great journalist! Siegel was also behind the article about the "1,000 Jewish Creatives and Professionals" who "denounced" Jonathan Glazer's speech at the Oscars (variety.com/2024/film/news/jonathan-glazer-oscar-speech-zone-of-interest-open-letter-1235944880/). This was a laughable article about a laughable open letter that was literally just a google form that anyone could sign. The article originally included a link to this form, which is totally ethical and unbiased of course! Hilariously, the article was eventually updated to remove the link. I guess that one was a little too on the nose even for Variety. Similarly to Simon Stephenson's "plagiarism" case, this open letter was just not the kind of thing that should have been taken seriously by a legitimate journalist. I don't know what's going on with Siegel. She apparently is fairly well-regarded and has done some very high-profile reporting, but it seems like at the very least Israel is a massive ethical blind spot for her, and that she's not above distorting the facts of a story to get the maximum number of clicks or push her own personal opinions.

@@jane-mulcahyYou should pin this comment too. I think many people would be interested!

@@jane-mulcahy I think this is a good material for a video.

@@jane-mulcahyplease pin this in the comments or make a video, ive really been hoping to see a video that covers this topic thats not just 1-minute buzz-news coverage but actually thoughtful and researched

your pfp is so awesome

he also loses his job and pursues his dream (cooking meth)

This is the moment Paul Hunham became Heisenberg. Bravo, Vince!

This is the exact moment when Angus became Mr. Tully

EXACTLY there's even a bit in one of the Hemingson or Payne interviews where one of them mentions that part of the decision to set the film in 1970 was to distance it from Dead Poets Society. It's almost like when artists know their work isn't plagiarized, they're not afraid to mention influences or similar works!

You could also add Dune to the list for starring an attractive male main character who has curly hair, and is guided through a coming of age journey by his peers and parental figure.

Or that 2000s movie (cant remember the title) with Kevin Kline as a boarding school history teacher who develops an unlikely friendship with a disruptive student with daddy issues.

@@nenoman3855the emperor club is what it called

Frisco of Theseus

Dammit that was MY ship of theseus joke! You thief!

As a teacher of ancient civilisations, Paul Hunnam would approve of this joke

That's really one of the main issues with his claim, the boarding school setting is so essential to The Holdovers that it's not very convincing to say it ripped off a script that has nothing to do with boarding school. And yes Variety shouldn't be let off the hook here. Just flagrantly irresponsible reporting that enables unprofessional behavior like this

This is my favorite comment. Much love to mr beans holiday

Oh, I think I've seen this one!

Yeah that's not only a major difference that further debunks the idea that The Holdovers plagiarized Frisco, but also a difference in quality imo! In Holdovers, Angus is a fully realized character with agency, and Paul makes a personal sacrifice so that Angus can have a better future. In Frisco, Amy is almost like a manic pixie dream cancer patient, more of an object that exists to help Willis out of his funk. He doesn't really have to sacrifice or compromise at all; if anything the script vindicates him by portraying anyone opposed to him (usually a woman) as either a total idiot or a cruel harpy. Not my favorite type of story.

​@@jane-mulcahyevery little bit of story we read from frisco genuinely sounds like such a bad movie 😭 the quality diff is craaazy

Sounds a bit like someone read the fault in our stars in early 2012 and got really inspired before realizing it had already been optioned for a movie adaptation

haha I didn't know about the dream detail, but I was originally planning to include some discussion of other major movie plagiarism cases in this video, so I did read about that one. it's especially crazy with Avatar because that movie is SO broad and archetypical (and kind of has no pretension about it). I think it was Lindsay Ellis who pointed out in one of her videos that Avatar, Pocahontas, and Dances With Wolves all basically have the same story

@@jane-mulcahyAvatar borrows SO MUCH from “Dances With Wolves” that it was reffered to as “Dances With Smurfs” for years after it came out 😂

@@jane-mulcahyI think that was Jenny Nicholson not Lindsay but either way she wasn’t wrong

Cameron was successfully sued for The Terminator by sci-fi author Harlan Ellison, who claimed it was stolen from two episodes of The Outer Limits that Ellison wrote. Ellison was pretty sue-happy and I don't think there was much merit in it. But he now has a credit on the film, anyway

@@noneofyourbusiness4616 I read about that! I agree that it might not have been sound, because apparently Cameron still maintains that it wasn't true. I know the accused might lie, but I feel like it's telling that he's kept his story straight all these years. Sometimes it's just parallel thinking, even when the stories seem pretty similar

In one of his emails quoted in the Variety article he says "anybody who looks at even the briefest sample pretty much invariably uses the word ‘brazen.'" so I guess his friends are either equally deluded or humoring him to make him feel better

@@jane-mulcahy I can't imagine how painful it would be to humor this nonsense in person I think I'd just die lol. The supporting document has the same vibes as flat earth conspiracies.

A hospital and a school are both BUILDINGS, with PEOPLE inside, sometimes constituted of both adults AND children. Check mate.

Also following up with 'busy cafeteria' as if that isn't an inherent quality of buildings with large amounts of people in them for long periods of time, regardless of whether or not _The Holderovers_ 'transposed' (lol) the location. Military bases have cafeterias as well, do they count?

Yeah he does that a couple of times! Kinda feels like he was feverishly putting it together as fast as possible to send to the WGA

somebody call the plagiarism police!!!

Yawn, bring on more videos about Degrassi: Next Generation or Next Class or maybe a deep dive into Beverly Hills 90210/Secret Life of the American teenager. 😢😮

I mean it's possible! I tried not to speculate too much because as I said in the video, I think it's equally possible he thinks he's acting in good faith. But the timing and nature of his claims definitely beg a few questions. Unfortunately, if he was trying to get more eyes on Frisco, I don't think this is good publicity for it lol

One interesting theory I saw someone float is that he's doing it in hopes of settling for a "story by" credit, which would potentially net him an Oscar had it won. Note the timing of when the allegations came out, after all... RIGHT before the Oscars.

Please, I was obviously plagiarizing Lindsay Ellis's omegaverse plagiarism lawsuit video

I know! It makes you wonder if they even read the document in full before publishing the article. But if they did, that's kind of worse? Makes the article seem more intentionally dishonest.

Maybe it was ai

@@redearth6267 It absolutely was not. People are fully capable of writing inaccurate, low quality, and fallacious articles, and have been since far before ai became a fun buzzword.

you are so welcome. anyone else who has ever made a youtube video is copying me ❤️

My Grade 10 English teacher showed us Igby Goes Down in class because he said it was the closest thing to a movie version of The Catcher in the Rye that he'd found.

Ugh I love that movie. I think that’s why the holdovers is so good though like it’s designed to be a classic Christmas movie, very unabashedly trope-y and sentimental… there’s nothing wrong with that, it’s why it’s so good!

boosting by transposition 🫡

I’ve previously had the idea to comment on videos and am accusing your comment of plagiarism.

Yes the Kimba thing is definitely another big example of people taking a few misleading, cherry picked claims at face value without doing their own research. In general I feel like it's really reductive to look at movies/shows as just plot elements and character archetypes strung together, because obviously in practice two works with a couple of superficially similar characters and concepts can be completely different in execution. It's hard to buy plagiarism in fiction unless there's text word-for-word copied, or the narrative and characters are actually identical, which in both cases they obviously aren't.

haha to be fair there is an exchange in the script where Willis says "nobody calls it Frisco" and Amy says that she calls it that because that's what the beat poets called it. but Simon Stephenson is also Scottish so you'd probably be right that he is not exactly a San Francisco expert

😭 that's what's so crazy about claiming this about The Holdovers specifically, I liked the movie but it's admittedly pretty formulaic and covers a lot of well trodden ground.

I needed that laugh thank you

No, he'll just complain to the writers' guild and then leak his own complaints to the press.

@@wtfaiwpodcast I can survive that.

Yep, same movie I was thinking of, but then again thats a remake of an Italian film, and also the sort of archetype/trope/story-structure you’ll see in a lot of media. Hell, think of the Lone Wolf & Cub trope and how much thats been used in movies, the old gruff man and the younger kid is nothing new

That one would definitely make the top 3 at least. One that I didn't mention is "sneaking to asylum vs. sneaking to Valerie's room", which is comparing Angus attempting to sneak out of a movie theater to catch a cab to go visit his father in the psychiatric hospital to Willis sneaking out of his and Amy's shared hotel room to go visit Valerie, the supposed Mary analog, at her hotel room so that they can have sex. Does he think just the concept of sneaking off to go do something makes this plagiarism? I would say visiting one's sick father and going to have a hookup are pretty different actions, but don't tell Simon Stephenson I said that.

@@jane-mulcahy i can't believe stephenson forgot to mention in the document that payne also stole from his movie luca, when luca sneaks away from his family to be a human.

okay I haven't seen Fundamentals of Caring but I just read the plot summary... WAY more comparable to Frisco lolol. and yet, still not plagiarism!

i imagine a lot of people on fauxmoi took these plagiarism accusations at face value without looking into them as there’s already been other allegations made against the director of the holdovers (the other accusations have nothing to do with plagiarism though). once people on there actually started looking at the “evidence” for the plagiarism accusations, there were a lot more people saying they’re bullshit

I keep getting recommended tweets about the ContraPoints/PT drama and it's so confusing because I really don't try to engage with that sort of thing since I like both of them... it seems like some stuff happened behind the scenes so who knows whether any of it was intentional, but I agree with you, you can't really pin down 'glamorous high production value video essay' as a style that belongs to any one person. I feel like the actual content and presentation of their videos are different enough that I don't really see why anyone feels the need to get mad about it

Totally agree with the idea that people just jumped to side with the initial accusations, but I'll note that the discussion of the full document framed this as damning evidence of plagiarism, however I'll admit I did not follow up on this story after the day it was published. I think Jane's video is just an important reminder that we're not all experts, or even qualified at all, to comment on particular topics. While it's valuable to be tuned in to news of any sort, we can't just accept the framing of anything, particularly when it comes to subjective topics (manufacturing consent and all that jazz).

@jane also totally agree with you agreeing with me! While I do engage with their content regularly, I personally do not give a fuck about any personal beef between the two.

no no no you're mistaken, my youtube video is actually inspired by an obscure french youtube video from 1935!

oops my bad! should be fixed now

lol I like "steams my rice." my dad has occasionally said "fries my potatoes"

I also used the term manic pixie dream cancer patient in a reply to another comment lmao And as a professional American who went to a French immersion elementary school, I agree! Merlusse can be kind of hard to come by so here's the version I found, I think it's complete: ok.ru/video/1450815261253

Oooh thank you !

Yes so many bs accusations of plagiarism in the music industry. There are only so many chord progressions!! But let's be real the 'plagiarism by transposition' argument is just begging to be used in a terrible music lawsuit lmao

​@@jane-mulcahy yeah... plagiarism is a real problem (ai hi) but the plague of lawsuits like these take advantage of the ignorance of outsiders unfamiliar with an art's form, structure and conventions to sue their way into money and credit at the expense of other artists :( really suspicious of corporations, labels and managers engaging in these practices at the expense of art... you just know these generative @1 companies aka the real plagiarizers will try to copyright every melody if we're not careful shutting down this shit :(((

I'm afraid I've only started noticing this stuff recently, and only really when it comes to this one writer! I'm definitely going to be keeping my eyes open from here on out though

😂 it was only like an hour long!

Oh wow, I have heard about that but haven't gotten around to watching the guy's video he made about it (I also still haven't seen Malignant). I won't judge too much without having seen all the evidence, but I think at the very least you have to make both screenplays available if you want to make your case to the public, especially if you're being audacious about it. Otherwise it just makes it seem like he has something to hide.

@@jane-mulcahy Now I'm obsessing over this again, so I double-checked and found the first ten pages of the guy's original script on his squarespace page, and they DO NOT help his case at all.

@@hurgenflerg2133 he somehow found my tweet about this video and replied with his video asking me to look into it... maybe I should check it out but I probably wouldn't make a video on it unless something really caught my attention

@@jane-mulcahy I think it's worth looking into just because of the mess of it all, even if it doesn't end up being something you want to make a video about.

I’d watched that screenwriter’s videos on the case and came away from it pretty convinced, but that just goes to show that stuff like this can be presented in super biased ways!!! Kinda disappointed in myself for not looking into it further.

Ok I probably should've finished the video before writing this because I didn't know he currently has a film adaption of his book in the works, which just makes the whole situation even crazier. He actually stands to lose a lot by making this idiotic stand and he apparently didn't have anyone around him to point this out or look closely at what he was doing and say "hey man, maybe don't"? It's just pure ego at that point. Like, he's somehow managed to succeed in the thing he set out to do and he STILL has this pure confidence and sureness that he's brilliant and he's been wronged because there's a really tenuous connection between some shit he wrote and a much better work that everyone liked.

I know!! I agree that what I've seen of his writing is not very compelling. And yet he's successful! Adapting his own book for Edgar Wright?! As an aspiring screenwriter myself (😔) most people work so hard and never make it in the industry, and even many of the ones that do get their scripts produced still can't make a living off of it. I can't imagine having a pretty successful screenwriting career and potentially nuking it all for this ridiculous petty nonsense? And yeah who knows who he's surrounding himself with, because in the article he says 'everyone I've shown this case to calls it "brazen"' which makes me think he's either surrounded by yes men or his friends are humoring him to make him feel better.