The Throne Room duel in Return of the Jedi is not only an underappreciated gem, but it is one that has become incredibly misunderstood since The Last Jedi was released.
Thinking about it Vader truly is a broken man. To save his wife and unborn child (he only knew about one kid) he turned to the darkside and betrayed and killed his friends and comrades. Then his wife died, and as far as he knows his son died with her. So all of that betrayal, all of that was for nothing. Vader's cruelty is his own self loathing projected outwards, much like Kratos, and then he finds out his son is alive, suddenly there was hope it was all worth it, suddenly he has a means of escaping Palpatine's shadow. The decides he would rather, literally, jump of a cliff than be 'his' son. At end of Empire Strikes back when Luke escapes, Vader says...nothing. You can see the officers around him ready for someone to die, but Vader walks of, defeated. Then comes Return of the Jedi and said kid is back saying he's going to save him. At the start of the trilogy Vader was the master of the force and experienced warrior, and Luke was the inexperience child. Now, Luke is before him fully trained, and sure of his mission, and Vader...Vader is probably unsure for the first time in a long time. Interesting how his progression mirrored his son's in that way.
The reason I love ROTJ is because of how powerful it's message of redemption is. It has even greater weight with the prequels factored in. As it echoes the past with Luke's mom. The themes had substance, something the newer ones lack.
I'm sure Luke wouldn't maintain hope for someone as evil as Vader. Just look at TFA and TLJ. He'd try and murder him in his sleep. Classic Jedi trick. Palps did it to Plagueis after all.
@@ganondorfdragmire7886 that's actually interesting, the fact that Rion Johnson wrote that Luke tried to kill Ben in his sleep, the same thing that Sidious did to Plagueis just shows that the writing in TLJ that much more ridiculous.
That's the point. What he's saying is that RJ unironically made Luke do what _Palpatine_ would have done. Talk about a ridiculous level of character assassination.
They threatened him with his sister. They showed his feelings to betray him. They showed his allies smashed to pieces. And he held firm. Their attack faltered. And they ultimately turned on each other, until only the forces of good remained.
And then he tried to kill his nephew and his students turned to the dark side and he became lonely, grumpy hermit that abandoned his friends and died alone. The END.
@@matiasluukkanen7718 Yeah... Thanks Rian Johnson. You outdid yourself... I think any Star Wars fan meeting him alone in a room would go full Sith Lord on him.
Return of the Jedi is my favorite Star Wars movie of all time and Vader vs Luke in the film is my favorite duel in the entire saga. No other duel captures the raw emotion and writing it has. Such brilliance may never be replicated ever again. From Luke entering the throne room to Vader’s redemption. This movie is hella underrated
Vader vs Luke in ROTJ is one of the most emotionally powerful fight scenes I have ever seen. Even before the prequels came out there was a profound sense of gravity to this scene. The music, my god the music, only served to deepen its emotional depth. I knew there was something significant about this scene even when I was a little kid who wasn’t at the intellectual level to put the pieces together. This fight scene gives me chills to this day.
@@FosukeLordOfError That, and TROS Palpatine is essentially Palpatine in name only, considering he was stripped of all his manipulative capabilities and covert planning (as well as simply lacking any intelligence).
R P yeah me too.great battle set.but mine is the cloud city set.they made it all perfect.bespins living areas and halls looked like a 70s shopping mall
Hard to say which is my personal favorite scene, but throne room is in the top three along with the entire Hoth sequence and the opening scene of New Hope.
The Emperor’s Throne Room is why ROTJ is by far my favourite scene in all of Star Wars. The parody version in The Last Jedi felt like a cargo cult; it’s doing the bare minimum to copy visuals from ROTJ without the barest idea of what the scene actually meant.
Friendshipismagic the throne scene in TLJ was obviously a subversion of the original throne room scene in ROTJ, with the key points being the death of the Empire/First Order’s leader; however the motivations behind Vader/Kylo Ren’s betrayal of their respective masters were different.... - ROTJ: Vader betrayed the Emperor with the intent of saving his son and genuinely redeeming himself - TLJ: Kylo Ren betrayed Snoke with the intent of saving Rey but seizing power and leadership of the First Order for himself Vader switched to the light side Kylo Ren had no intention of switching (and the battle with the Praetorian guards seemed to have just kept him rooted further into darkness)
@@EricGraham94 Except Rian Johnson utterly ignored Luke and Palpatine's parts, only mirroring superficial elements and adding his own to the mix. Thus, Rey's struggle to redeem Kylo is very superficial and completely left out of the middle of the scenes. While Snoke's part is strictly irrelevant apart from being a plot device for Kylo Ren at two points in the movie. It's neither a copy nor a subversion. It's a grown man drawing a painting he saw in a museum, with the surface level understanding of a five years old...
When I was a kid, I never paid much attention to most films save for the fight scenes. But this movie was actually the first time that I paid attention to the plot due to Luke and Vader. I grew up without a father in my life, and seeing Luke try to bring his father back to the Light as a kid really moved me as it still does to this day. I don't hate TLJ because I'm some kind of bigoted sexist/racist or because I can't "appreciate" deeper themes behind a movie. I hate it because it spits in the face of everything Luke went through in the past while trying to save a loved one by just giving up without even trying. That to me is why the Sequels have failed in continuing the Saga's storyline.
Doesn't matter if you have an actual reason why you don't like it. You are a bigot anyway. Because Trump is evil and you know... socialism...and sexism n stuff or whatever.
Honestly, I decided to destroy The Last Jedi. I deconstructed it until it was a mere puzzle of a bad joke, I burned all frames with cold calculated criticism until I was happy again, freed from its power over me. It cannot hit me anymore, it doesn't matter anymore. This movie has become a pathetic joke made by a hack, and I pity all the people who worked hard on that movie under the casual troll guidance of this insecure manbaby. TLJ, and the Sequels at large, don't matter anymore to me. They can do whatever they want. It will suck, but it will be okay, because the story finished perfectly some 40 odd years ago. The rest is modern fan fiction from a bunch of hacks. And I treat as what it is.
ROTJ was probably the weakest of the three films from a purely cinematic standpoint, but it's conclusion cemented Star Wars as the greatest movie trilogy that's ever been made. Vader's redemption casts light back on the previous two movies and immediately changes the context of pretty much every scene.
Great video. Never really hit me, but yeah Luke is physically dueling with Vader, but philosophically/spiritually dueling with the Emperor simultaneously. Fantastic insight
Agreed. I miss his SW videos. The way Disney’s SW crushed him so hard to the point that he nearly lost his love for Star Wars is quite telling of how terrible they handled the franchise.
I completely agree with you. Luke won the moment he tossed his lightsaber to the ground. Literally tossing his own fear and pain away, and facing whatever fate Palpatine had in store for him while also showing his father what was possible in the face of true evil. I desperately wish that episode 7 was a continuation of Luke's school of thought in Jedi training. As you stated, the Jedi who trained him were flawed in many ways. All we needed was a story involving Luke's Jedi academy.
Agreed. I feel like another often missed point in ROTJ was that Luke learned how to truly listen to the compulsions of the Light ("I FEEL the good in you...the conflict") whereas the older generation of Jedis had come to lean far too much on their own warped "point of view". Not enough to turn them darkside, sure, but you can only be so much use to the Light if you actually put your pride aside and learn to LISTEN. They kept refusing to do that with Luke, just like they did with Anakin, but unlike his father Luke learned absolute trust in the force, striking out on his own to do the right thing and even willing himself to lay down his life for what was right if necessary. Watching Luke train a new generation of Jedis with this heightened understanding of how to listen, really listen to the Force and the Light would have been FASCINATING and opened up so many new storytelling opportunities. Instead we got a grumpy old hermit squatting on an island and sucking off alien tits for breakfast 'cause...reasons. Bleh.
THIS is why i refuse to accept disney star wars as canon lukes struggle and hardship to redeem his father from the darkside even after ALL vader has done Mark Hamill is right he was playing "jake skywalker"
"Dark Empire" It's truly painful that this reference will go over most new fans' heads because it's "not canon so it doesn't matter anymore". Like, that's not gonna stop me from reading Expanded Universe material. I grew up with it all just being Star Wars, there wasn't a distinction.
Dark Empire was canon when it was released. An official sequel to Return of the Jedi. Just because Disney says it is not canon we have to accept their opinion?
Everything that RotJ did right was done so well, that the flaws can't drag it down for me. It's like trying to use a small stone to stop a hot-air balloon from rising.
@@musclestruts5032 I don't know if the Ewoks and the jabbas throne room/sail barge scene were enough to make return of the Jedi a bad movie if we forget these two things we have a really good movie as you just said
12:32 "If anything, I just hope I've given some of you a newfound appreciation for both a dual I find to be criminally underrated and a character who is more than just a meme." You, sir, have succeeded
I wished desperately that Endor was the home of the Wookies instead of the Ewoks. It would have made the movie more interesting, and the trilogy well-rounded.
The original plan was for the Wookies to triumph at the Battle of Endor. But by the time of ROTJ Lucas felt that the Wookies had become such a more advanced species through the character of Chewbacca, that them eventually overthrowing of the Empire with the Rebellion might be less surprising and more expected, so he decided to use a more downsized version of them instead.
I'm pretty sure anyone who was a Star Wars fan before TFA was announced already knew all of this, but nevertheless, I always love a good scene dissection!
This was a good analysis but I personally feel that Luke’s true enemy is not Darth Sideous. It’s his father, or more specifically, his father’s unwillingness to admit he was wrong, as you said. Luke has almost no interest in killing Sideous. His father’s redemption was the driving point. He even throws his weapon away when facing Sideous directly. That’s what makes Luke such a great character. He saves his father by his father saving him.
One of the reasons why ROTJ is my favorite Star Wars movie is the powerful message of redemption it concludes Anakin Skywalker /Darth Vader's story arc with true satisfaction rewarding the fans of the franchise with a satisfying and deeply meaning full ending
Return of the Jedi has been my favourite of the OG trilogy for years largely because of the Luke-Vader-Palpatine dynamic, it is so powerful and I think many overlook it and focus too much on Ewoks for some god-awful reason. Glad to see someone giving a compelling and eloquent overview of this movie's themes to better get the point across. Good work Boofire, often find myself impressed by your videos whenever I happen upon one.
Interesting video. Return of the Jedi is my favourite Star Wars movie, followed closely by Revenge of the Sith. It’s such a brilliant conclusion to a trilogy. I honestly don’t mind the Ewoks. What makes it for me is the whole sequence where Luke duels with Vader. If you want a definition of movie magic? That fight scene would be it!
My ma says the Ewoks retroactively redeem the idiocy of Jar-Jar by actually being helpful, and while nowadays I really don't mind him anyway I have to say I agree.
The ewoks are a metaphor to symbolize how the arrogant Emperor doesn’t view them as a threat, yet they cause quite a bit of havoc against the Empire’s “best troops”.
My biggest problem with diseny is that they a golden goose in front of them in the expanded universe! To think to star wars characters like Thrawn, Mara Jade, Ben skywalker, and the solo family Wil never be on film and it's none of it is Canonical boils my blood! I would pay good money to see Jacen solo slowly becoming darth Caedus and in last film its the duel between him and his sister Jaina! I remember as kid reading the legacy of the force series!
We all know the true reason Obi-Wan's original story didn't match up with the truth was because Lucas came up with the thought of Vader being Luke's father after ANH was completed. In universe, though, it makes sense for Obi-Wan to hide this from Luke, and not for nefarious reasons. Obi-Wan wanted Luke to train as a Jedi. That's what he wanted his focus to be. If Obi-Wan had told Luke the truth, Luke's entire focus would be on confronting Vader, his father. There's a relevant example of this in, of all things, The Mask of Zorro. When Diego is training Alejandro to ostensibly become the new Zorro, he focuses the younger man with a training method involving circles. Alejandro's pure focus to start is to learn to fight so that he can kill Captain Love to avenge his brother's murder. Diego tells him there is no Captain Love in his world until Diego says there is. As Alejandro masters things, his training moves into smaller circles to bring all of his goals closer and into focus. Obi-Wan recognizes Luke's impulsiveness, inherited from his father. Withholding that information until Luke was ready makes more sense to him. This is borne out in Empire when Luke runs off to help Leia and Han after sensing their forthcoming pain through the Force. Luke's not ready to face Vader and certainly not to learn the truth. Not only is Luke defeated, but it sends his world into tailspin. This ultimately could've undone everything the rebels were fighting for.
That’s a good comparison. Luke represents the drive towards good and survival. Darth Sideous represents glee and demise/death. Darth Vader represents those who have succumbed to the despair.
@Captain Fordo For reference: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-I8pJ4PgKFVM.html Fair warning: I suggest you have an hour set aside for complete viewing.
No its not a kreigsmarine but actually its artwork from the Warhammer 40k Death Korp of Krieg, a branch of the Astra Militarum loosely designed after German soldiers from world war 1 and 2.
Lord Solar Matthius wrong again , the uniform is French , the Gasmaske is Britsh and the Helm aswell as the weapon is german based ... so yeah ist just diesepunk
~1:30 I think this is quite a bit off. In Obi Wan's final duel with Vader he redeems his own doubt and guilt for killing Anakin by allowing himself to be killed. He may not fully believe Vader to be redeemable, but that doesn't mean he has all but abandoned Anakin. In their final duel on Mustafar Obiwan knew they had to go their own ways but he still loved him. This is further reflected in both Yoda's training in the cave and Obiwan's advice to Luke as he leaves for Cloud City: "Don't give in to hate" He says this knowing Luke will face Vader, holds vengeance for the deaths of Obiwan and his father in his heart, and that Vader may well know and reveal the truth to Luke. While his advice is meant to save Luke, it does also display an understanding of Luke and Vaders relationship and the warning that killing Vader may not be the correct answer for Luke *as his son* The situation is incredibly complicated and dangerous, which is why they didn't tell him the truth until he had gained more insight than his young and simple black and white view of the world allowed him. They didn't want Luke to be seduced by his paternal relationship to a man that was not truly his father in Vader, but they also didn't want Luke to fall by killing his own flesh and blood, thus destroying a part of himself: the cave training is a reflection of that. And in the end they held out hope that Luke could overcome this complexity and save Anakin from Vader, in one way or another, that could redeem them both. This is why in their lie they include the notion of Vader being a separate person who killed Anakin rather than just come up with something wholly untrue. Diverging from the original topic a but here, but some possible insight into the Jedi order using Bens line "True, from a certain point of view". Many, perhaps all things, have multiple ways of being understood. But it is often difficult for us to see past the things that matter to ourselves and realize this. This is also the true meaning behind "only the Sith deal in absolutes": a Sith makes a determination about things and acts 100% based off that determination as if it was unquestionable fact even if they are wrong or evil, *because this is easier.* The Jedi attempt to remain open and multifaceted in their understanding at all times, something far more difficult than simply deciding what is true and what isn't. The moment truth or course of action must be decided is when a Jedi is most vulnerable to falling or failing, but also when they are the most powerful. This is illustrated by Mace Windu being betrayed by Anakin and Obiwan felling Darth Maul. The struggle for the learning Jedi is in making contextual decisions and actions but not allowing yourself to be sucked away from the bigger picture, which is why the counsel refused Anakin the rank as his mind was constantly on the things that mattered to himself
@Jacob Blanton I think you've got a very good analysis of the affair. I don't believe Obi-Wan lied to Luke, but recognized that he couldn't answer Luke's very first question without stepping on an important part of Luke's training - learning through the Force that Vader was his father. That's what the cave scene represented and why Yoda told Luke he didn't need to take his weapons into the cave. Without those weapons, Luke would've been forced to talk to his vision of Vader and learn the truth for himself.
Here’s what I personally think the difference between the two overlords is: Palatine was the final obstacle. Snoke was the starting catalyst. One brings events to their conclusion, the other sets them into motion. Palpatine is the end of Luke and Vader’s journeys, Snoke was merely the beginning of Kylo’s. That’s just how I personally choose to interpret it, felt like I’d thrown it out there.
This is why I love Mathew Stover's ROTS novel. "The dark is patient, and it is everywhere, and it always wins. But in its greatest strength lies is greatest weakness: a lone candle can hold back the night. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars." It perfectly sums up in a single paragraph how Luke saves Vader. His love for his father, his ability to forgive his father, is what pulled him back. What saved him. Anakin: "Now, leave me!" Luke: "No, I've got to save you!" Anakin: "You already have...Luke. You already...have." What's even more beautiful is "Luke" is from the Latin word "Luca" which literally means "My light." So Vader was saved by his son who was his light. That's what the Sequals fail to understand. Luke is Anakin's best qualities. He is everything his father was *meant* to be. Where Anakin failed, Luke succeeded. You also touched upon my greatest complaint in the Sequels: the nature of the dark side. The dark side is a malevolent energy that is intertwined with the light side. To use one leaves you vulnerable to the other. Thats why Yoda says how the dark side is "quick to join you in a fight" and that only by being calm and at peace can you keep track of which is which. In other words, you either resist the seductive whisper of the dark and rise above like Luke...or you succumb like Anakin. There is no third option. The sequels don't understand this so their entire story is screwed from the very foundation. It's why Kylo Ren's line: "I feel it again...the pull of the light." Pisses me off so much. The light is gentle while the dark is subtle yet domineering. Compassion, hope, love, selflessness, these things don't pull on you! It's anger, fear, lust, greed, that pulls on you. It's why I loved the scene in TLJ when Rey is swallowed by the dark when "training" with Luke... and promptly so furious when they forget about it immediately after. Every single time Rey taps into the Force after that scene, she should have been swallowed right up. Especially after getting "tortured" by Snoke.
Corrupt Angel the pull to the light is not a literal pull, but a feeling, guilt, regret, Hope. It’s to show he hasn’t given himself to the darkness completely because that’s not how people work, that takes time, like how Luke isn’t immediately evil for pulling his lightsaber on Ben, Ben isn’t immediately evil for his actions, the actions are but the person isn’t you get me? It’s about complex character without saying literally “I feel conflicted about my emotions and am therefore not a totally bad guy”. I’m glad you have a total understanding of how the force works but maybe some people have other opinions and thats okay, it’s even okay for the force to contradict itself because it’s a) not real, and b) a metaphysical construct with that universe anyway. Even Yoda didn’t fully understand it.
@@elliottwatt5297 My point was that the dark side has an addictive effect. The more you use it, the easier it becomes to use and the harder it is to stop. You can't simply embrace it like Kylo and not be consumed. Anakin embraced it to save Padme and in a single day was consumed and practically became a different person as a result. Even using it for the briefest of moments is extremely dangerous. As shown when Luke embraced it just for a moment when his sister was threatened by Vader and he barely was able to pull himself back at the last second. It takes the best people and brings out their worst. If Kylo was saying he's feeling conflicted, than there are other, much better ways to say or show that without breaking the lore or making Kylo, a 30 year old trained all his life by Luke and Snoke, seem like an ignorant child.
I also thought that the "duel" in RotJ was between Palpatine and Luke himself and seemed a bit underrated. I love this part in the movie because I always felt that this was Luke's final test in becoming a Jedi: to overcome his fear and rage and redeem his father. Thus, like the title of the movie implies, The Return of the Jedi. Great vid. 👍
I have come to believe as some have posted on RU-vid that the title, "Return of the Jedi," refers not to Luke re-igniting the Jedi Order, but rather the redemption and return of Anakin Skywalker. Anakin finally defeats his dark side feelings, and then to complete his redemption, lays down his life to save Luke from the evil Emperor.
Return of the Jedi is probably my favorite movie in the series, because it has my favorite scene in the series: Vader's redemption. Which is why I refuse to buy the blu-rays, that stupid "Nooo" ruins it.
@@Replica_Films2000 , the noooooo scene is ridiculous. There is always a fly attracted to poop, or in this case, one person who likes a very lame alteration to a classic scene.
@@jamiebraswell5520 I just looked up the original scene and i realized he doesn't even say no Once i always thought he said the first no and the second one later now that i see he doesn't even say it once i think 2 things 1 you suck 2 this is a clear improvement your literally complaining about George making it More clear To the audience as well as being a bit More emotional i grew up with this version and its obviously much better hating this addition is like hating the Prequels your just Stupid.
sorry for my english (i am french) : I agree with you on the fact that Palpatine and Snoke are not the same character but Snoke is far from being pointless : he represents the "past" that Kylo has to kill in order to "become what he is ment to be" (litteraly ). This theme is central to the movie : Kylo wants to kill the past because he is overwelmed by it, by the legacy that he has to bear and whose he will never live-up to (at least it is what he thinks, altough when he effectively kills Snoke he litterally "surpassed" darth vador in the dark side, now that he is freed of his master), the first throne scene with Snoke in the movie is the representation of that. However the paradox with Kylo is that although he suffers from his past, his legacy, he deeply cherish it, and can never trully escape from it because of that : that is why his conterpart is Rey, a girl who has nothing to claim but still tries to "heal" the Past, who don't ignore past mistakes but in the same time don't let her be draged by it, she keeps moving forward (and with that we can confidently afirm that the "let the past die" line is not what the movie is trying to say to fans, in contrary to what some dumb dumb have said) . So yes, Snoke as a purpose : the representation of the Past, the "great figure", the unsurpassable force that can not be defeated : his death IS pointless, to show the ridicule of this mighty being who could have survived just by passing-on his strengtht to his pupil (where Luke's death is the complet oposite : chosen, peacefull, in accordance with what he believed but without leting his student down in the critical moment though). PS: i don't think you trully got what Luke's character was in the Last Jedi, he is our Luke (oh boy he is) but that is an other subject PS2: i watched your berserk video, it was amazing !
The difference is that all the characters except Luke (including the Jedi and Vader) think that Vader cannot disobey Palpatine and destroy him. He does so to save Luke. So Luke's faith in his father is rewarded. It is Luke's trust that is the catalyst. And we have catharsis. The goals of Luke and Vader are in sync. Although Snoke believes he is more powerful than Kylo, no one discusses this. In the first throne room scene it's establishing that Kylo is angry at Snoke, and conflicted. This foreshadows what will happen, but it doesn't have the same impact. Kylo killing Snoke is a surprise for the audience and Rey, but there's no catharsis. 1. We don't understand the significance of Kylo killing Snoke, because we don't know his motive until he explains AFTERWARDS to Rey. 2. He is still her opponent, because she refuses to join him. So he is the opponent in 7 & 8. They could remove Snoke from both movies and it doesn't change Kylo's character. He wants to be like his grandfather. He wants power. And Rey's goal in the movie is not to confront or kill Snoke, it's to get Ben Solo, after Luke refuses to help. 3. Kylo's motivated by what HE wants. It's about the past etc etc. It makes sense for the character - but that is never as satisfying for the audience as one character SAVING another or making sacrifices for someone else [being compassionate]. That's why the scene fails to have the resonance of the ROTJ scene (aside from the fact we saw almost exactly the SAME idea already in this franchise). It has shock value but nothing else. We don't know who Rey is or what her motivations are beyond "find my place" [which is vague] or what her connection is to Kylo. And if we don't know those things, then what happens with Snoke doesn't matter all that much. YMMV
@@Ruylopez778 Fair enough, I can agree with that ! My response to your points would be that first, I think this "throne room" scene was never intended to have the same impact as the "real" throne room in ROTJ (how could it have - and same thing for Snoke/Palpatine)- second that Kylo is our VILAIN, so maybe it was already a little bit early for catharsis :p Plus I think it is already very interesting that the movie explores his motivation as much as (if not more than) the "main character"for once And you know, for the moment I honestly love those movies, but It is still quite "hypothetical" : to trully know if this trilogy holds up to the franchise as a whole we need to wait for the third and last movie Without it, it is difficult to really judge the characters arcs etc, because we don't know how they end, and therefore there meaning (look at ROTJ and ROTS endings, without them you CAN NOT trully make sense of the other 2 movies of their respective trilogies - you can, but there obviously something missing, and a lot of what the characters do is explained by there respective arcs'endings )
@@lecramtsourp2801 "My response to your points would be that first, I think this "throne room" scene was never intended to have the same impact as the "real" throne room in ROTJ" Then why do it? Do something original. "second that Kylo is our VILAIN" He kills Lor San Tekka and Han, and injures Finn in TFA. He doesn't do anything bad in TLJ, really. Shoots a few spaceships. That's the problem. He is more the protagonist than Rey in this trilogy. Kylo: a "complex" ambigious, misunderstood, misguided, fallen hero, who failed to live up to his legacy. vs Rey: a nobody, we don't know anything about, who doesn't have a reason to be a Jedi, but just wants to "find a place" somewhere. Kind of directionless and aimless. I mean, there's lots of questions about 'legacy' and 'identity'.... but where is the STORY going? "without them you CAN NOT trully make sense of the other 2 movies of their respective trilogies" The problem is that the OT and PT had set up in the first two movies, and the audience knew what the motivations were for the heroes and villains and the stakes. In the ST they started with mystery, and then a twist in the second, without fully explaining everything. We don't really know why the characters want what they want, or how they oppose each other. Probably that's because there is no deep reason for the ST to exist. It's retreading an ending that already happened, instead of doing something new.
@@Ruylopez778 Like I said, I could completly agree with you but i don't know where I stand right now, I'll be glad to give you a proper awnser once The rise of Skywalker came out :) But for now: 1- The Heros and Vilain fighting together 2- "Sir the villagers - Kill them all" 3- Pull to the light, mirros Anakin Skywalker 4 - Rey journey will be whole in the last movie 5- In 10- 20 years, audience expectations will not make sense anymore, and we will judge the trilogy as a whole, the whole saga Maybe I'll have a different opinion in December :p
This may be the one and only SW analysis video on RU-vid I didn't find myself eyerolling at least once during. Not only did I agree with literally EVERYTHING you had to say, you opened my eyes to character elements I'd never even considered before (Obi and Yoda were in a lot of ways held back by FEAR, which from Yoda's own philosophy is the first step toward the DARK SIDE, or in this case--the dark side nearly winning if Luke hadn't listened to his own convictions from the Light). Great job, man. Never stop making these ;)
@@martinh1309 the pre's are terrible movies... sure they look great but they are just so damned lump. The ST is just a much better series of movies. They aren't the OT by any means but jesus they aren't the clusterfuck the PT was.
@@kasperhawser6431 OT: something to say, well executed (mostly) PT: something to say, poorly executed ST: nothing to say, with competent execution (they didn't set up goals or motivations properly)
I don’t think he was there yet. That’s the beauty of the torture scene, it takes seeing his son in pain to realise that actually he can do something. If that was the intention of Vader’s blocking Luke then I feel it undermines that, but not as much as the special edition version does.
No, Vader was protecting Palpatine. Both of the Sith wanted Luke to fully embrace his fear and anger before attempting to kill them. If Luke destroyed Palps on impulse, he may have regretted the decision and shied away from the dark side. Vader also had to show he was still loyal to his master, even though he was planning to use Luke to usurp him; he knew Palpatine was testing him in that moment.
what would you say about Kyle Katarn then? He has been everything and everywhere. Light side, dark, back and forth, completely severed himself from the force at least once, and still came back.
Wow. I love this. I've enjoyed the choreography of the other light saber duels, but the emotional point between Vader and Luke has always been the important part. The articulation you've offered explains my childhood perspective when they first came out. Thank you
I really like your analysis. Most people have pointed out Sidious' line of dialogue about a lightsaber being a Jedi's weapon being a reference to how Sidious probably just uses Force lightning (pre-prequels) and so forth, but the idea that he uses apprentices like Vader to do the physical fighting as a pawn while he guides them through manipulation is a very interesting point that I agree is overseen. Also I too believe that Return of the Jedi has the best lightsaber fight in context and choreography/blocking. Honestly Return of the Jedi is my favorite of the original trilogy. Yes Empire is the best in so many ways, but I love Return of the Jedi. It's where the saga movies should have ended (the prequels could still be made) while the expanded universe took over from there
Boofire, your idea of Kylo Ren turning to the Dark Side to get close to Snoke to kill him is literally the crux of his character in mine and a fellow writer named Squasher's rewrite of TFA. I don't know if you read it prior to this, but I was genuinely surprised that you came up with the same idea. But as they say, great minds think alike. If you're interested, I have the story here: www.fanfiction.net/s/12935052/2/Star-Wars-Rewrite-Episode-VII-The-Force-Awakens
I figured Snoke tricked the New Republic into attacking Luke's academy and Ben became Kylo Ren with other survivors joining him as his knights to avenge their fallen comrades joining the First Order to fight the New Republic Jedi who are nowhere near as powerful. When Kylo killed Lor San Tekka he did so to spare him both the likely tortue and also protect Luke using Lor San Tekka's words as an excuse to hide the truth. However Snoke already knows coercing Kylo into killing Han THIS action is what goads him into killing Snoke that act making him a true Sith.
You put into words what I have always known and have tried to explain to others on many occasions and failed. I will be linking this video in the future!! Thank you!!
My favorite scene in the return of the jedi is that when Luke briefly gives into the dark side and chops off vader hand stops and looks at his own! He realize that if he kills vader he become no better than him in the long run! So when Palatine orders him to join him and he refuses Luke knows he was going to die than rather kill his own father! Even though most people would haved because vader killed millions himself but Luke was a jedi like his father before him!
@@watermelontreeofknowledge8682 You do realise it's based on a long-running manga and not just a franchise consisting of a single film, don't you? Who am I kidding? Your comment already answers my question.
I used to watch Return of the Jedi the VHS Special Edition so much as a kid growing up in a family that loved movies. The VHS was worn out like crazy. Good thing the dvds and blu rays now give me the chance to rewatch it as much as possible.
11:25 There was an AWESOME theory that said it was actually Han Solo who turned the lightsaber on and impailed himself. So when Kylo says “I know what I have to do I just don’t know if I have the strength to do it” and Han Solo says “I’ll help you”, they were both talking about killing Han to make it look like Kylo was on Snoke’s side. I’m sure this was NOT intended because JJ Abrams is an unimaginative tool, and because if you look really closely you can see Kylo Ren leaning forwards to impale Han, but I still thought it was relevant.
Heres something that will blow your mind that I recently figured out by rewatching the movies....when anakin turned to the dark side palpatine was being force lightening to death and anakin jumped in killed mace and turned evil, when darth vader turned to the light side palpatine was force lightening luke to death and darth vader jumped in killed palpatine and turned good.......George always said it rhymes it's like poetry lol.
That whole dark Empire Luke idea for Ben would have been so cool and would have explained his unstable lightsaber. If he's just faking turning to the dark side then attempting to bleed his Crystal wouldn't have worked properly hence why it's unstable. It's just a shame Disney didn't have any creative people working on the movie.
Snoke was killed after only two outings. Palpatine was killed after pulling the strings behind all the events in the Galaxy throughout the time frame of six films. With prominent, PROFOUND appearances in five of the six.
@@Auzzie015 the baddest evilest dude who killed ben and chokes people to death and shot down all the plucky redshirts knelt to him and called him master... that was profound
I missed these...and honestly, I'm kind of hoping that at least with Episode 9, Kylo gets kickstarted into a path of redemption, since I honestly hate that they didn't change anything with Snoke getting killed by Kylo. Like I would have hated Kylo joining the good guys because it just makes the films a bit boring, but seeing him turn against Snoke because he was being treated like crud seemed a bit believeable, especially when Rey was taking the spotlight from him. Like I feel the only character with potential in the Sequels was Kylo Ren, and yet nobody wants to make him the Dark Jedi/Grey Jedi because the status quo must be maintained and Rey is our new chosen one. (On a side note, would have liked if Rey had turned to the Dark Side instead, and then had the other heroes try to save her from the influence, and maybe Kylo goes on his own personal journey now that he has no master to follow. Like The First Order and Resistance conflict is the least interesting part of this trilogy. Give me more character development with a side of starfighting and blaster/lightsaber duels.)
I think his whole arc is to become the vessel of the darkside so Rey can kill him and end it. I believe it will take light and dark to defeat the Emperor Wraith.
@@LgiovanniF If that were the case, think a sacrifice would be the ideal way to handle this. Like if Kylo becomes the embodiment of the Dark Side just to be slain, I don't think it would be as satisfying a conclusion to his arc as say realizing the foley of his pursuit to become Vader, and accepting that to try and save those he still cares about - in this case, Leia, assuming she's still alive in this universe by Episode 9 - as well as redeeming the Skywalkers lone, he'd have to give up his being in order to save the galaxy. (Though I'm also mixed about them going the route of Palpatine possessing Kylo's body in order to accomplish this too, mostly because then it wouldn't be Kylo showing his stuff when fighting.)
@@H250V im thinking more that palpatine is the vessel (wraith) or otherwise... ben would then become the vessel with the destruction of palpatine, but where the emperor maintained himself as a dark force ghost Ben would not a willingly dissapate or (fanfic) obi wan, luke, yoda possibly qui gon purify him with their lightside essences and wipe out the darkside for good. (bit matrixy) I'd like to think that ben might live after revealing the benevolent nature of his plan. but this is all fanfic
I was 8 when I saw Return of the Jedi. I remember the scene where Vader stands at the rail. It was different body language than we were used to. There was the baddest of the bad, showing vulnerability. The scene when he's watching Luke be electrocuted, I remember it was as if the entire audience was thinking the same thing "Is what we think is going to happen, going to happen?" What a sweet moment when Vader finally grabbed the Emperor. It was the first time I ever cried in a movie.
Your commentary on RotJ is very good, but your interpretation of Snoke is simplistic and short-sighted. First of all, Snoke has an obvious role in the story in that he is a partial catalyst to Ben Solo's fall, which then forms the core of the Sequels' story. Even if that is all he did, that still makes him important in the same way Maul and Dooku were (steps on the way to Anakin's fall and therefore Vader's eventual redemption). Even though he is dead, the damage he has done lives on in both Kylo Ren and the First Order, and it's up to Rey, Leia and the Resistance to find a way to fix that damage. That has the potential for compelling stories right there, because throwing an evil guy down a pit doesn't automatically undo everything they did, a concept that the ST is basically built on. Secondly, Snoke's death in a manner similar to Palpatine's but with a different end result is important (not just "subverted expectations") because it highlights a major difference between Vader and Kylo's arcs. Vader was a man that no one (including himself) thought could be redeemed, and so no one tried until Luke. Kylo Ren is a man that a bunch of people believe can be redeemed (Han tried, Leia has faith, Luke kind of tried, Rey definitely tried), but he keeps rejecting the offers of redemption. Vader hated who he had become but felt he had no other path left in life, while Kylo seems to WANT to be a bad guy, and most of his frustrations revolve around his failures to be good at being a bad guy. This makes dealing with him a much different challenge than Vader, which is a good thing, since we don't just want the Sequels to repeat the OT beat-for-beat. In fact, removing Snoke as Kylo's apparent final challenge while still keeping him on the Dark Side means that he can't be redeemed just by fighting a worse guy. (Unless IX uses Palpatine for that, in which case I'll feel a bit disappointed.) If Kylo is redeemed, there has to be another way to do it, and we'll have to see what Episode IX has to say on the matter to know how well the writers' solution fits the story, but, once again, Kylo's arc being different than Vader's is a good thing. Lastly, Kylo and Rey teaming up against Snoke and the Praetorian Guard does have an effect on the plot, even though they go back to being enemies right afterwards. Because for a little bit in the middle of TLJ, they ended up as friends, if only for a couple of minutes. While their archenemy relationship seems to be restored by the end of the movie, the fact is that it CAN'T be exactly the same, because both know that they have the potential to be friends again. If Kylo gave up his power, or Rey her morality, they could easily be friends again. But neither one is likely to do that, and this colors their relationship, as each one somewhat understands and sympathizes with the other, but their desires differ enough to still make them foes. Kylo and Rey have a more complicated protagonist/antagonist relationship than any similar pair in the main series, and Snoke's death being in the middle instead of at the end is a big part of that.
This was very well done. Good job man. I love this duel a lot, it has great choreography and emotion. Even though it's 16 years before TPM, you can tell it's got the beginnings of the music and fast-pace of prequel fights. I agree about it being between Luke and the Emperor, and love how it builds to a climax. Jedi Fury is one of the most awesome themes, as you see the silhouette of Luke attacking Vader. My favorite though is the Duel on Mustafar; you can't top that.
this is a great vid. the title scared me (me thinking, oh great ppl are going to misinterpreted Vader's redemption) but yea this is a no brainer yet... it feels necessary you make this video, and its amazing
I've always understood these Throne Room scenes this way since my childhood. Luke is confronted with the Emperor, and as Yoda warned him, he should not underestimate him. The Emperor is built up well throughout all the imperial pov scenes in the movie as this looming threat to _everyone_ all while Vader is shown to have changed his gear, now that the Emperor is coming. He's not representing him and punishing left and right anymore. In fact, he is demonstrating some sort of mercy even, something... unexpected, and unsettling. The Emperor plays his role perfectly in the movie, and seems quite used to play the puppet master. I've always thought he was the best handled character of the whole saga. Until now... You know it's coming. They're gonna ruin him...
I have been a Star Wars fan since birth. I have been constantly learning my whole life. And you continue to show me things I have never considered. Well done.
It's a discovery and revenge story. If Luke and Palpatine crossed sabers, what would be Vader's job. Vader is already a failed apprentice that the emperor was stuck with. And Vader enslaved himself by getting the government he said he wanted to abdallah. Except for the rebels Peace runs through the galaxy . Peace is not freedom
I grew up loving Star Wars, and of the original trilogy, RotJ is definitely my least favorite of the 3. Despite that though, this scene is certainly my favorite in all of Star Wars, and very possibly my favorite in all of cinema. The subtext in this scene is so deep and meaningful that there's virtually no discussion of it online. I suppose it may go right over a lot of peoples heads. When I see this scene: Vaders jab about corrupting Leia is the last straw for Luke. Father or no, Vader was directly behind the murder of Lukes aunt and uncle (The only family he'd ever known up to that point), personally responsible for the murder of Ben kenobi, had tortured his best friend on cloud city, and had personally maimed Luke. In addition, he was a part of forcing Luke to witness the destruction of the Rebel Fleet at the hands of the Imperial Navy. And that's not even touching on all the other atrocities Vader had committed or been a willing participant in (Alderaan, etc.). Luke had every LOGICAL reason in the world to hate Vaders guts and despite all the training he'd received, he simply couldn't keep from lashing out with those feelings. Up to that point in the fight it had been pretty evenly matched. Vader could push Luke back, Luke could push Vader back, but neither side dominated. Once Vader made his remark about Leia, Luke flipped his proverbial lid and came out swinging. There was absolutely zero finesse to Lukes saber fighting then, just raw, untamed savagery. And for the first time in the fight, Vader was soundly dominated. Luke pushes him back relentlessly, every swing having all his anger behind it, every swing meant to take Vaders head off when he pins Vader against the railing. Vader is so overwhelmed he can't even keep his feet under him and Luke doesn't even slow down in the slightest. He just keeps hammering at him like he's swinging a baseball bat and eventually maims Vader the exact same way Vader had done to him in ESB. Luke shoves the lightsaber in Vaders now helpless face and we get a good look at Luke, who's about skewer Vader and (if his facial expression is any indication) love doing it. This is the point that the Emperor goads Luke about killing his father and taking his place. We see Luke look at Vaders severed stump of an arm and then Luke looks down at his own mechanical right hand. Back to Vaders severed hand, then to his own Mechanical one again. He clenches that fist and we can hear the gears and machinery whirring and clicking in it as a horrified look comes over Lukes face in realization of what he was about to do. The hand was a metaphor at that point. You could have plucked the mechanical hand off Luke and put it on Vader and it would have been 100% in place. That metaphor extended to Lukes behavior. He'd just indulged his rage and as a result, nearly killed an unarmed person he had completely at his mercy(Not a very jedi thing to do). That scene was Luke falling to the dark side just long enough to get a very good and ugly look at what he would become if he continued on that path. He literally had an example of his future pinned to the ground in front of him, and with the parallels in their behaviors he realized "There's what I'll be if I continue, and we're already just a little bit alike". Luke then visibly calms himself and steps back from the helpless Vader, deactivating his lightsaber and tossing aside as he tells the Emperor "Never". When he made that choice he was basically stating "Better to die than become you". What makes this scene even more powerful is that Anakin Skywalker once had a similar choice and he failed......but his son didn't. And my favorite thing about all of this? Absolutely none of these things are spoken out loud. This ALL communicated via imagery and facial expressions, and smart camera work. It's rich and it's profound and it's SUBTLE. There's absolutely nothing comparable to it in the sequels(Not movies I like). Literally every character and scene never has any thought beyond the most immediately obvious, and every thought and emotion in every characters head is immediately blurted out loud. It's lazy and sloppy and just plain bad in my opinion. Thank god we still have the Original Trilogy.
This is the most fantastic analysis of the story I've ever seen. Mostly because it resonates perfectly with my opinion. And this analysis amounts to a complete analysis of the entire original trilogy! Well done!
Was so with you until you started talking about Luke's incident with Kylo. Earlier in the video you were talking about Vader seeing Luke briefly lose himself and subsequently finding his way back, which is the same thing that happens when he senses big darkness around Kylo and his future. While horrific, his deciding momentarily, without thinking, to prevent what he thought could be the next Darth Vader (which he feared a lot because he saw first hand the consequences of an individual like that's influence on the galaxy) feels not to be as bad as his much longer walk on the dark side in ROTJ. Don't understand how people can't consider that luke could easily become the person he was portrayed to be in TLJ. Do love the idea of double agent Kylo though, would have been incredible, great video and much respect
3:07 "Obi-Wan and Yoda... are weighed down by a past they can't escape... In a way, Obi-Wan and Yoda have lost sight of what it means to be a Jedi..." (!) O_O !
Great Video BOOFIRE, your Star Wars content is always the best. These comparisons reinforce the reasons why I love the old Star Wars. Legends will forever be my Cannon not this alternate timeline. I am going to kick my feet back and listen to the 20th anniversary dynamic reading of the Thrawn Trilogy. And imagine if they just made films after these brilliant novels. May the force be with you always.
As a child of 10 in 1978-79, I was immediately drawn the character of Darth Vader so much grown up felt the need to explain he was the bad guy. As a wide eyed kid seeing the opening of new hole and Vader in was the first impression. At first , he was on a to recover stolen plans. I honestly loved every character in the movie and didn't see the good versus evil as much as cops and robbers. Vader was a beloved character and. I can remember at that point of the movie, luke got a few boos from those wanting Vader dead. Then a deafening response of cheers and applause when Vader tossed the emperor down. People were on their feet . some people stormed out of the movie at the majorities reaction. I think geoge loves saw this and changed the storyline. Which at time, would have been like a storyline of a teenager turning Jason good in Friday the 13th. That cemented the original trilogy, the 2nd 3 had that moment of table rising and his appearance was too little too late. Vader had to be the Skywalker in this last upcoming movie
Yeah Disney fucked Star Wars up the ass. I’m not paying to watch that shit..... I honestly was pumped about TFA until TLJ came and fucked EVERYTHING UP.
Also ruined the ending of Star Wars Rebels, overall, what's the point of George Lucas's original 6 movies if the ending makes them meaningless? Spoilers: Anakin's apprentice survived. Luke creates the new Jedi Order fixing the issues from the old one from the prequels with advices from Ahsoka, this is the closest thing to the EU but in reality, way more canon than Rey (which character development and training?)...
Zontar no, Vader is still "meant to have the role of the dragon" if the confrontation had gone ahead in a traditional sense. It's just that the dynamic is a bit different. Like in LOTR, it's not about defeating the villain with strenght in a clash or good vs evil, but defeating evil itself. In the case of SW it's the tragic fallen one becoming the hero again. The true moment of victory for both Luke and Anakin is the moment Anakin manages or chooses to come back to save his son. So instead of a hopeless fight against Sidious, who is too powerful for both at that moment, the dragon decides to sacrifice himself so that such hopeless fight won't happen, and for the right reasons, as in his love for his son (of course in LOTR the victory is different as it's evil which undoes itself in the end).
Great video. A lot of excellent points made. On a side note, if you don’t mind me asking, where did you find the artwork of Vader-Luke fighting in front of Palpatine?
One other thing I like to point out. Dont know how much it means in symbolism (if it even does) But, at the end of all 3 OT films. Vader looks down - ANH - He fights Obi Wan, after Obi Wan vanishes Vader looks down to check the robe. ESB - Luke drops himself down the a shaft in cloud city, Vader looks down in almost disbelief. ROTJ - Vader throws the Emperor down a shaft and looks down watching. After I thought of this, I was interested to see if Anakin does anything similar in the prequals towards the end of each film.
Normally a character looking down at the camera is used to make them seem bigger, usually to convey power or importance, but it's possible there may have been some other motive, or it could just be a coincidence.
Love saved Anakin. Love saved Luke. Love defeated the Dark Side. The Force used a son's loyalty and admiration and a father's need to guide and protect to defeat the wickedness and selfishness of the Dark Side. The embodiment of the Dark Side. The most evil of evils. Making a father and son battle to the death is as grim as it gets. But Luke and the Light Side pulled through. The Emperor had the full might of his Death Star fortress and the lethality of his best military assets. He commanded the Dark Side and could perform unthinkable things with it. It couldn't save him. None of it could protect him from the weapon used by the Force.
I like and agree with your analysis of the three-way duel between Luke, Anakin and Palpatine. Where I disagree is with your subsequent lack of analysis regarding The Last Jedi. In fact what you refer to, correctly in my view, as Snoke's pointlessness is exactly one of the points TLJ tries to make that reinforces your interpretation of the ROTJ duel. As you say, the ROTJ duel was never just about "defeating the ultimate baddy" and it was all about the difficult path to redemption. As a result a three-way duel between Rey, Kylo and Snoke would immediately be seized upon by viewers (who know about ROTJ) to be interpreted in a similar fashion. But since the first minutes of the Sequel Trilogy we know that the shadow looming over Kylo is not Snoke … it is Anakin's legacy. The swift and unglamorous end of Snoke reveals Snoke to be just what he is … a powerful but narratively insignificant agent of evil and it is an open invitation to the viewers to ponder the question what made the ROTJ different. Unfortunately to many fans chose to go down the lazy path and just complain about "bad writing" and how their expectations were upended. The point however of the duel in Snoke's throne room was not to upend expectations but to make clear these expectations hinged merely on form but not on substance. The substance of the Sequel Trilogy lies beyond the form. And that brings me to your comment that Luke in the Last Jedi was out of character, which I disagree with for exactly the same reasons that make me agree with all that you have said about the ROTJ 3-way duel here. You rightly point out that Obi Wan and Yoda are compromised characters in ROTJ and in fact in the whole Original Trilogy. Just like the OT Anakin is broken, so are the OT Obi Wan and Yoda. The sense of failure weighs down on all of them but in Anakin's case turning against Palpatine would be an outright confession of that failure and thus this holds him back. In Revenge of the Sith we witness the failure itself but the process of wrecking their souls occurs off-camera in the intervening years. That brings me to Luke and the last segment of his duel with Palpatine. Interestingly Luke's last action as a combatant is surrender visualised by throwing away his lightsabre. He does not surrender to the dark side of course, i.e. not to Palpatine, but he does surrender to the notion that more violence and sabre-rattling on his part will not end the conflict. In that surrender he declares victory by that famous like " … like my father before me!" In his surrender not only does he reiterate that he cannot be turned, not only does his gesture of throwing the saber away emphasizes that he has no need for armed defense as he cannot be turned.He acknowledges there and then that he views his surrender to the light-side as both immutable now as well as extending to his family heritage. The first step in Palpatine's defeat is that the son openly declares his allegiance to the light and to his father. The second step is that Anakin takes that 'hand' that Luke stretches out to him and casts away Palpatine's shadow. Now this resolves the conflict between Anakin and Luke but it is only an intimate redemption, there are no other witnesses and there is no chance that the Galaxy as a whole is going to accept this turn of events as the true story. So off-screen there is a large reservoir of disappointment and failure ahead of Luke after ROTJ. The end of the Empire does not bring a new garden of Eden. In fact, conflict rages on albeit on smaller and more localised scales. The shadow of Vader's legacy amongst the citizens of the Galaxy hangs over both Leia's and Luke's lives and … ultimately … over Kylo's. A history of failure perhaps no longer weighs down on Anakin, Obi Wan and Yoda … but it does on Leia and Luke. The Sequel Trilogy presents both Luke's failure in terms of reigniting the Jedi Order as well as Leia's failure politically to pacify the galaxy as direct consequences of the legacy of Vader and Empire. Kylo's turn to the dark side is the adolescent's attempt to deal with that legacy … Snoke is meaningless other than as a "seducer" as the "snake in paradise". His role is essentially finished when Kylo's temptation has taken effect, by the time of The Last Jedi he is a narratively powerless relic with no other use than to be cast away. However the political legacy of the violence-obsessed imperial order as well as the legacy of the rules- and code-obsessed Jedi Order still need to be dealt with. Anakin may have found redemption in ROTJ … but the galaxy at large still struggles with the age of Sith and Empire. Kylo embodies this conflict and the Throne Room scene of the Last Jedi was necessary to make clear that this is not just another redemption story. The Last Jedi was also necessary to show that despite Luke apparent "victory" in ROTJ, that was only a victory in the intimate and narrow confines of his relationship with his father. Although crucial as a step in the military defeat of the Empire it was only a first step towards the expulsion of the "spirit" of Empire and authoritarianism from the galaxy, only a step towards the restoration of the Jedi as an order of Light. That Luke could be tempted to strike down Kylo was in character, as he was equally tempted to strike down his father. That he chose not to after a brief moment of contemplation was in character as he did so to in ROTJ. But where in ROTJ his brief hesitation to do the right thing had no impact … in TLJ it "came with consequence". A consequence reinforcing the shadow of a legacy still present in the galaxy, emphasizing a temptation to which the new generation was exposed. This is a conflict that is fundamentally different from that of ROTJ but it is no less necessary as a conflict in order to truly come to a close with the story that started with "lil' Ani" all those decades ago on Tatooine.
I like how deep you're diving into this, but I respectfully disagree. TLJ neglects to show what luke learned as a result of his lashing out. Once Luke took Vader's hand, he immediately realized that what he had done was not right, he learns that there is a better path to take, and throws away his lightsaber signifying that he has learned this lesson. He saw his father laying on the ground without his hand, and realized that lashing out as he just had was a path to the dark side, as his own hand had been taken the same way. I feel like someone as teachable as luke would never forget a lesson like this, and never raise his lightsaber against his nephew when his whole arc in the OT was being able to see the light in someone who most thought was beyond redemption, and kylo was hardly beyond redemption himself. Even if the Galaxy never accepted Vader and saw his redemption, luke wouldn't be corrupted by something so insignificant when he had already stood up against the darkside's strongest champions and was victorious. What makes Luke in my opinion the greatest Jedi to ever live was that his power didn't come from his dueling ability or his physical strength, but his incredible resolve and ability to see the light where no one else could, and stop at nothing to bring it out. This is all my interpretation, of course, I really did enjoy your comment
Luke smugly drank green tit puss from a space walrus. No amount of analysis or introspection can fix this. Also a lot of what you are inferring about the "shadow of Vader" was given no context in the sequel trilogy and carries the same cinematic weight as "Jar Jar did it." I like the idea had it actually been explored. But it wasn't.
You need to stop thinking EP 7-9 is canon. The Star Wars saga ended with EP 6. When Lucas sold the IP to Disney, all the rest is just fan inspired fiction.
Well. In the new canon they "vanished" Luke after RotJ completely, then returned him as a loser and coward who have his one moment and decides that "that was it, I'm not gonna do better so I'm gonna conveniently die now". When I was growing up, Luke was my hero, more then Leia even. EU made me never fall out of love of Skywalker-Solo clan & friends. They were family overcoming hardships and having ups and downs and loving each other to the end. Disney made them all miserable, hopeless and broke that family apart, it looks so sickeningly on purpose and with current Disney/sjw/deconstructionism philosophy I really began seeing there some agenda... Also, showing the old hero in bad light only so the new "hero" could "shine" is just primitive.
I've always felt ROTJ's was the best duel in the saga, not only because of the psychological battle at play between Luke and the Emperor, but also because of the wonderful score by John Williams, particularly the bit when Luke loses it and strikes at Vader in anger. It's truly a perfect composition. Pity they later ruined it by having Vader yell, "Noooooo!"
