This was recorded at JordanCon 2021 with Brandon Sanderson, Marie Brennan, and David B. Coe. Brandon Sanderson: www.brandonsanderson.com/ Marie Brennan: www.swantower.com/ David B. Coe: www.davidbcoe.com/
"i like those fun ways of getting magic", proceeds to make magical powers only be given to people with extreme emotional baggage and trauma so severe it literally broke them. Fun, you said ? FUN ???? i mean fun for us, but still....
Regarding the idea they mentioned in passing of “magic gained by being born during a particular stellar alignment,” that inspires an entertaining idea of a world in which the nobility have highly-paid court astronomers whose job it is to calculate the dates when these stars will align, and then use that research to set dates for massive orgies or amoral breeding programs to guarantee as many magically gifted heirs as possible.
Brandons entire point is, I think, summed up as follows: It is vital that you build a rational economy with your magic system. No matter how economics illiterate your reader might be, they will intuitively distrust a poorly constructed, or non-existent magical economy. Even with magic, there is no free lunch.
I wonder how alchemy can factor into this. You know, coal into diamonds, iron into gold. If you have individuals in a world who can do alchemy, how do you stop the market from getting flooded by gold? Hmmm. I know that there is a esoteric element to alchemy, and as such maybe the only way to attain the ability to perform alchemy, you might have to be an individual who wouldn’t use alchemy to get rich?
@@johncalabria1607 My immediate thought was that you could explore the effects on a world where an alchemical breakthrough has occurred actually allowing for transformation of lead into gold or something like that. Would the method immediately get leaked? Would the genius be murdered? Would he become a prisoner of the power he worked for? To keep him safe? To keep him as an asset? Both? What would happen to international commerce? Would the inexplicable wealth of this power cause others to question? Would it devalue gold, causing a natural shift in value perception? So many different questions you could ask, and narrative directions you could take.
@@andrewhinson4323 Those are really good questions. In the last week, I’ve been thinking about writing a little short story about an alchemist, so I’m going to see what I can do about this little question
For instance the whole well use cheap magic items to purify the sewers and make the fields more productive, well what happens when those items aren't that cheap, I mean sure the nobles can have magically clean water but not necessarily everyone, or the fields on their estates might be magically more productive but the smaller time farmers might not have enough margin to be able to afford that magic.
He is one of the best people at worldbuilding and talking, it's just a shame none of the others are as good at either. I'm not saying they're bad, I'm just saying, Brandon is way too good at it. Well the more you do something the better you get. And holding lectures all the time on writing, and still managing to write more books... and all this stuff, I sometimes wonder at which speeds his head works at?
Now, he just has to work on his prose. Also, I love Brandon, but he's not the best in the field ( depending both on personal taste and objective elements - world building, character's arcs and growth, plot, etc), just the fastest and most prolific. But at least, he's got an integrity to him that some others desperately lack...( Cough cough, Winds of Winter, Doors of Stone...)
"What has t happen in order for a magic system to be believable?" Two words: Internal consistency. It has to fit the tone and setting. It also needs to follow it's own rules. These rules don't need to be explained to the reader - see soft magic systems - but if it's established that magic can't do something, then it can't do that thing without some explanation or reaction of confusion/surprise from the characters.
Is Gandalf's magic consistent? We don't really know the limits of his power, so we can't really gauge consistency. Or are we saying that Gandalf can consistently do pretty much anything?
@@TheAssassin642 Gandalf seems to be limited to doing things that accomplish goals that humans could accomplish themselves. He is a guide and inspirational figure, basically. The exception is when he is directly confronted with other "old and op" beings such as himself.
"It has to fit the tone and setting." I agree, but I think a better way to word this is: "The world has to feel like it is aware of the magic in it." If metallurgic magic exists in your world, maybe a village is built using only stone and wood using gravity-based locking joinery rather than nails, to avoid using metals. This way a village can feel somewhat protected from metal mages. Stone or wooden bowls, stone and wooden cookware, etc. Maybe they search everyone on the way into the village in order to disarm magic users.
I like to believe that Gandalf borrows his power from Eru through the Valar. I forgot how many of them are there but I assume if Gandalf needs to light up an area, he can conjure it by calling the Valar's name responsible for light... things. I'm just gonna use the Greek gods as an example. If Gandalf needs to conjure water to, let's say drown an enemy, I imagine him calling for Poseidon, and Poseidon sort of grants it. If Gandalf needs to cast a lightning spell, then Zeus grants it. I got this idea from the fact that the Valar themselves sent the Istari and vowed to support the latter when necessary. Of course Gandalf and Co. probably have spells that are maybe unique to them, or they themselves developed, or was gifted to them, but yeah, the Valars probably thought they'd pour most of their support to Gandalf after assessing that out of the 5 members, he was the only one that did the most effort. In other words, Gandalf can potentially use a wide plethora of spells and it is only limited to his own creativity and/or imagination, as well as if there's a valid reason for using it.
Just from the very first few minutes: "[Genetic magic] has Implications, capital I". I love how this so accurately reflects Brandon's writing; all the important (usually magic) things are just regular words that are capitalised (Diagram, Shards (Stormlight cool-swords or gods), Push or Pull (Mistborn), etc.)
@@maxroy5246 Idk about that; implications are usually implied, and I feel like we'd probably go out of out way to make new words for magic things (or rather, assuming the magic isn't new, we'd have made new words for it back when we were inventing words)
@@lucasriddle3431 I think it all comes back to the learning curve. With a magic system that has as much to explain as Allomancy does, it might have been a poor decision to then also have made up words that would further confuse the readers.
@@or9422 It also makes sense that people would find better ways of digesting their own magic system as it's taught over generations-There are plenty of complex names for things that are often referred to with simple terms in the real world, especially by people experienced in that profession. Stuff that makes sense, especially adter explained
Time stamps for different discussion topics in the video (for my own reference mostly, when rewatching it's sometimes nice to be able to jump to a specific part): 0:00 When you think of non-genetic magic systems, what comes to mind? 6:58 What has to happen for a magic system to be believable, and how is it different for a non-genetic magic system? 14:56 Is there anything different about it not being genetic based when you're building the system to make it believable? 20:19 Interesting non-genetic magic systems 28:13 What is your soapbox issue/pet peeve about fantasy and magic systems? 35:17 Anything not asked that they want to talk about (Brandon talks about a non-genetic magic system he outlined) 36:35 Interesting worldbuilding & bland character is usually a bad story, reverse is usually still a pretty good story. Discussion of this idea. 41:47 Where do you prefer to start a project (magic system, story, etc.)? 44:20 For Brandon: the story/magic you outlined, is it Cosmere? (some discussion about what makes a thing Cosmere and how some things don't fit) 49:29 How does Mistborn magic system relate to topic of this panel? 52:11 Difference between something being inborn/part of you vs. inheriting from someone, genetics? (work in progress)
This works really well with "partly genetic, partly learned, not for everyone". Some are born changed by outside forces in ways they have to learn and master, some seek out ways to extend themselves throught the far lands, most people won't ever give up being frail, limited, comfortable, familiar full human for power.
"The fate of the world rests on your shoulders, good luck sunshine!" Is so much better of a chosen one setup than "Prophecy told us you were destined to save the world"
Robert Jordan’s sword forms stuff was a way to describe what was happening without actually describing the individual sword strokes. The names of the forms were all intentionally evocative in order to paint a picture. Obviously it didn’t work for everyone, seeing as they didn’t like it, but I always found it very effectively set the tone of the fights.
I really relate to their points about magic from D&D or games, because I deal with that one personally when I write stuff for my games. When I write a campaign or setting in D&D, I have to go down this rabbit hole of figuring out how magic affects the rest of the world, because the existence of magic means all the other ordinary stuff we take for granted would also be different. A castle wouldn't just have walls, it'd have forcefields and anti-scrying wards and magic proximity alarms, which really complicates building an interactive story where I'm not in control of what the players do, but it still has to be believable and still has to be fun.
You probably already know about this, but throwing out it just in cast and/or for others: look into Eberron, that's basically why it exists. What would the world _actaully_ look like if you used all the magic available to you?
well thats why magic tends to be rare in these settings. But a castle might not necessarily have anti magic wards. spells are actually not great at effecting stone walls and even a high level mage cant deal with 50 archers raining arrows down on them for long. So it seems more likely that instead of warding the structure, lords would hire magical protectors instead. Magic proximity alarms should be there yes, but those shouldnt be hard to implement, and they are indeed detected by "detect magic" in 5e D&D (since this is basically what the alarm spell does)
It kinda makes it more complex, but also a lot easier to take into consideration spell levels. It will make the initial slog worse, but once you get through it, you will find that you only have a fraction of the spells to deal with, since 4th level or higher will be so rare you don't really have to consider them on a societal scale, only for important locations. Some are still too good to pass up and would be worth the effort for a society to invest in, but at least not every spell has to be factored into every location on an entire planet. Another way to make it quite easy is to go the colonialism route and just section of all the spoils of magic to a small section relatively speaking. We have the technology to feed the entire world based on only a couple hours work every day, maybe even less than that. No one actually needs to starve in our current world and it wouldn't cost society much to achieve it either. But capitalism is inherently bad at sharing, the concept of charity is done despite capitalism, not because of it, so people still starve. Implement that into your world building, and you could quite easily explain how revolutionary magic still hasn't fixed all the problems they honestly could super easily. It might have quite drastic implications for tone and world building, which might be difficult to deal with in an honest way, but it presents an interesting challenge
Exactly, that's what I always think about, when I read a fantasy which has magic system, and I always love the ones that world build around their magic systems because that how it should be, if u have people who can creat cloaks that make people fly and border another kingdom, that other kingdom won't just have walls to protect their city, they should create something to counter the people who can fly and so on.
When it comes to defenses and fortifications I try to think about "what are they defending against and what can they afford?" Maybe they don't have the coin for an anti-dragon staff but they probably try to make up for it with archers, allies, or maybe dragons and griffins aren't a problem.
This first 3 minutes of the talk immediately remind me of Mashle: Of Muscles and Magic and how its setting is literally a post-genocide world where all non-magic born were slaughtered by the state to “purify” the magical population. It’s all kinds of fucked up and having the genetic component of magic play an integral and frightening part of your narrative can be extremely captivating when actually addressed properly.
Indeed. Genre jumping a bit theres also the Spartan program in Halo. All those who were killed or handicapped either testing the suit or augmenting themselves to lead up to Master Chief.
I think a really cool example of media exploring these two things is the manga Witch Hat Atelier, where the premise kinda is that magic is thought to be genetic by most of the people in the world, but the main character discovers that anyone with the right tools can do it, and it goes on from there. I think that the implications of it as it explores this kinda contrast between the ethics of those who were born being taught magic between those that aren't is just really fun to read.
34:51 This is so strange to me because I actually really liked the way sword fighting was done in WOT and think it's one of the best ways to convey interesting imagery in a fight scene. The people actually fighting refer to those sword forms like 'boar rushes down the mountain' in the same way people in wrestling does a 'lariat' or the 'Boston crab' or something like that. The people fighting knows what it's called but they aren't thinking about the imagery of the word, it's simply what the move is called. However, for the people reading, it gives so much imagery and it allows the reader to fill in the blanks on how the swordfighter is moving with a short one-line thing for each movement to keep the fast pace of a fight scene. I think it was brilliant, especially if you want to show elegance and beauty in a swordfight.
I just wanted to drop in the observation that while, as mentioned, you can get inborn magic without it being inherited, due to the circumstances of your birth, you can also have inherited but not inborn magic - the magic item that's also a family heirloom, or the ability for individuals to pass on their powers. The overlap of inborn and inherited, obviously, is where genetic magic hangs out (though genetic engineering could shift that), and you can also have magic that's neither inborn nor inherited but acquired through study and ritual.
Genetic engineers are an issue to keep in mind, if one wants magic to be genetic in a not too weak sense of the world. However, even without that Tech Level selective breeding and actually also natural selection are issues to take in consideration. If consistency matters. First thing I ask myself as a reader in many settings is "how can non-mages exist in this setting, when magic is such a huge advantage in biological competition?" Is that world too knew, or is magic something that emerged in existence a few generations ago? Mages are less fertile, or more likely to die before they have a lot of children because of being mages? If not, magic should be about as common as the ability to speak and understand language. It would not be "equal", some people would be better and stronger at magic, like some people are better and stronger in using words. However, those who cannot do magic would be rare enough to be classified as suffering from a genetic disease of some sort. People are living things, and living things are not born equal. Differences that give you more chance to survive and make more people while you are alive will spread. Those with them will became more numerous. And the advantageous difference will became more evident and powerful as time advances. If magic is genetics. Given enough time, either non-mage humans will became extinct or they will have to find a different environment where they don't have to compete with those who have magic. Then perhaps no human will have magic, and those with magic will belong to a different specie. No longer able to generate children with humans (except perhaps by magic)
@@thiagom8478 On the other hand, if magic users compete with each other, but not with mundanes, then having a moderate magical ability would be a major handicap to survival. In that scenario, you have one pressure pushing for a divergence in magical ability between mundanes and magicians, being countered by the magicians being able to seduce pretty much any mundane they want, so constantly introducing a trickle of magi genes into the broader population, and preventing outright speciation.
I see your point,@@rmsgrey . I would imagine mages compete for resources like food and shelter, better fields to agriculture, what have you, but that's not necessarily the case. Perhaps mages with higher levels of power and skill will close gradually in a caste that will eventually diverge into a new specie. While the lower 2% in terms of magical power will keep mixing into human population, making the most "attractive' humans (by whatever criteria matters) more "magical non-mages" than the average human population. What happens with those mages who are neither top 2% nor lowest 2% ? They will aim to raise their powers up to the quasi divine levels of wizard-sapiens I suppose. But what they will achieve? Perhaps the most powerful mages end up becoming "elves" (and in this setting elves are more numerous than humans). While those "lesser elves" who are not good enough to join them in the floating cities will remain as a sub-specie of human. Isolated in their own communities mostly, but still close enough to normal humans to interbreeding to happen some now and them. I still think we must give the humans SOMETHING to serve as competitive advantage. Perhaps magic users will die without some sort of substance, some variety of plants perhaps. It is common enough most the times, but will disappear when exceptionally long summers happen, making "mages grain" hard to find and leading to the deaths of large portion of mage population bellow the sky from time to time. (while the sky elves remain safe, cultivating their crops by high magic) That allows non-magic humans to keep their numbers higher than low elf population in the lands bellow the sky, most the time, in most regions.
A very common trope is also "It's inborn, but we have no effing idea how it happens. Two magic users having a baby has no more chance of a magic baby than any other pairing."
I will give Brandon at least $320.45 of suspension of disbelief. I'm in it for the long haul. I mean, you kinda have to be for the Cosmere since the magic system still has not been (and probably won't ever be) fully revealed in how it works. Is there a "Adonalsium Particle"? We may never know.
Yea actually I disagree. Brandon Sanderson gets like $.60 from me because he doesn’t Need anymore than that. He’s just so good at building Magic systems that just Work. You don’t need to do the Harry Potter “Magic works without words now Because.” Or the “Gandalf is Gandalf, therefore Magic- any questions? No? Good.” Stuff.
On Brandon talking about interesting world vs interesting characters. I think one of the most important ideas in storytelling is that the world can be interesting, so can the story, the magic, the lore, the cultures, but at the end of the day, characters are what we relate to, and we always perceive the world through their eyes. Even if you tell the most simple story about a rock bouncing down a hill, you can make people invested in that, but its because they're humanizing the rock and relating to its painful journey.
I related to the rock but thought it was having a great old time bouncing around frolicking down the hill until you started talking about how painful the tock's journey was 😢
@@Big3Taxi don't worry, nothing but a few scrapes and chips. Once it got to the bottom it discovered a pile of rocks that had also fallen. They'd all been through the same journey, and finally they could all rest in the company of their peers. Our little rock found the perfect spot, right next to the most beautiful quartz crystal. They lived happily ever after relaxing in the sun, welcoming new friends who made the journey.
Tone affecting versimilitiude: i just realized this is what made me always like the atmosphere of games like Half-life or films like Akira. The gradation from the common to outlandish happenings is smooth and consistent, and most of the power is explained.
Tolkien did several things - Object-based magic like magic rings, species based magic - wizards & the shapeshifter (wizards are not 'human') & elves have magic (although it looks like that elves also seem to have a genetic component, not all elves can do magic). He also touched on hedge magic, magic for everyone in herbal potions etc.
Elven magic is craft-based, or skill based, and spiritual. All elves are capable of doing magic, even if some haven’t developed the skills needed to do so. Of particular importance is music, because Arda was forged through the music of the Ainur, so among the most powerful magicians were musicians, like Finrod Felagund and Luthien Tinuviel. The Dwarven and human magic is also craft-based. Think about Aragorn’s sword, the doors of Durin, and the Hobbits’ anti-wraith daggers. The elves (and ents) just have eternal lives to hone their craft and skills (though ents just sit in the woods all the time so their magic is more natural). The elves also have a better understanding of the world on a metaphysical level, which allows them to do things that would seem magical to a hobbit, or the reader. If you spent 4,000 years making rope, you could also make magic ropes like the Galadhrim gave to the Fellowship.
Also has genetic magic in that certain lineages of a single species (esp. humans) are special. For example, "the hands of the King are the hands of a healer," so Aragorn can heal people from overexposure to Ringwraiths. And Aragorn can safely lead his group through the Paths of the Dead and command the Oathbreakers. But, those abilities also object-based (enhanced?) so that he needs kingsfoil and Narsil to fully exploit them.
It's interesting that now RU-vid is giving me videos on magic systems when I'm in the middle of crafting a system based on burning incense to affect the mind and body of those that can smell them. Among other systems in my story, like eating coal to breathe fire or imbedding gems into one's body so your soul can power the enchantments found within. Trying to make my magic systems more of a cultural thing (like what Marie mentioned at around the 26 minute mark) since the story isn't really about the magic itself but more on using it as a way to promote interaction with other characters. The video definitely reminded me of some things to keep in mind as I develop the magic in the story further.
There is a series (I've only read the first) that has powder mages - they gain abilities by consuming gunpowder and have the ability to make bullets do amazing things. Brian McClellan is the author. Might be a good resource for ideas.
@@laraleepn I've heard of that series before. Can't really recall the name of it right now, though. I barely finished reading Mistborn last month on a friend's insistence and that got me on this train of thought in the first place. So I wouldn't mind picking up another book to read through for more inspiration to draw on. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
@@bittermadman627 I hope I can realize it too. I rarely get around to writing down the ideas that tend to pop into my head. And my confidence is such that I don't see this particular story getting published anytime soon if at all (and especially given the subject matter I'm attempting to do tackle). So I'm mostly stuck writing it out on a google doc until I either get bored or find some place to put it up in. Maybe even try to do it for NaNoWriMo, if I feel daring enough. But we'll see what happens.
@34:50 I never saw this style as bad or problematic from Jordan. I saw it as an interesting and artistic way to paint a picture of a fight scene, or other scene without having to give all the details. He actually packed a lot more information in with very little effort. Rand's walk in the palace was Cat Crosses the Courtyard. Right away, you know that this is a prideful, strait backed, head held high walk with a purposeful stride that takes nothing from how alert Rand is of his surroundings. And, Jordan told us none of that. He just gave it a metaphoric name that we could use to paint the picture in our own head. Move on to sward forms; He didn't have to tell us how anyone stood or stepped. He didn't have to tell us how the sword was held or swung. He transitioned from one metaphor to the next to give action to the scene without slowing down to add in details. To me, this is one of the things that Jordan did best in his writing.
Probably just a result of classes, but I’m enjoying working on a magic system built on a world that is essentially a giant computer, though before the concept of one would ever occur. The original goal was to create a certain experience (a lot of my ideas begin that way...), that of programming reality. It really digs down into the ritualistic side of magic, and the idea that wizarding is all about preparation. As I got further into it, those problems from implications started popping up. (Though implications can be trouble after the book is out, they’re great world building inspiration.) A magic system with this much potential freedom and so deeply rooted into the world could cause all kinds of havoc. So thinking more into it, magic is essentially hacking reality (unless someone is “born” with it and already has the magic precoded into their existence). The power hungry would seek to gain further access, which if found would create greater possibility of existence unraveling. Also a fun thing, this universe is all for sand box table top, so I can have all sorts of world ending story hooks just waiting to be sprung.
My favorite kind of magic system is the kind that isn't explicitly stated to be "magic," something ever present throughout the world that influences people's daily lives. For example, bending in Avatar the Last Airbender. Unlike most magic systems, bending in Avatar is explicitly stated not to be magic despite it obviously being "magic." It behaves more like a martial art and that's how the writers intended for it to be. Taking inspiration from this; the magic system that I use in my writing behaves the same way. One obtains a magical ability unique to themselves based on their ultimate goal in life. Anyone could use magic, but not everyone does; the reason for this is because you need to be a specific type of person to use magic - the kind of person who would sacrifice themselves or more for their dreams to come true.
I loved that Brandon got them started on giving examples of non-genetic systems, and I wish all of them had spent more time on this topic. I think it's so useful when an author shares their knowledge of the genre with aspiring writers, and I think just the tips on what books to read, look for is probably more valid than the entirety of the arguments presented in this discussion, in no small part because a large portion of it didn't stay on the mainissue of genetic X non genetic magic systems...
David Coe's explanation of how you can stretch and bend the rules of your laws of magic within your own novel immediately bring the Lord Ruler to mind in The Final Empire. His powers are fantastical and seemingly godlike, but I'll be damned if Sanderson doesn't do a helluva job restricting the powers to the rules of Allomancy and Feruchemy....and Min's budding understanding of those rules are what allow her to win the day. GG Sanderson!
When Brandon Sanderson talks about Runelords, a book I found on my own that I’d never heard of but got rid of because I didn’t know if I’d ever really read it, now I must find it again! I must read it!
I started supplementing my hard sci-fi with urban fantasy back in 2010 which tends to stick to a harder rule set in their magic systems and I really appreciate that. so I usually reference the magicians or the Dresden files over harry potter when discussing such things personally. It equals up to a different kind of escapism I guess because you have potter who gets whisked away into some secret world which allow him to distance himself from "Real world" problems while Dresden never really escapes and Coldwater's escapism is temporary. I'm a audiobook fan so I listened to elantris some years back and just finished The last empire a few days ago and now I'm in warbreaker figuring things out.
I love soft magic systems that are simultaneously bound by general rules and still can be symbolically heavy and preserve wonder. FFXIV's Aether is a good example because the magic system serves as both the problem and the solution and we can see characters like Urianger and Y'shtola go back and forth with eachother and be like "okay I don't see the full picture but I'm on board with the pieces rn" there's also that idea that the system is hard for the characters, but not to us looking from the outside-in. Which i think is equally as awesome.
I love how Marie and David probably wrote down their names on their nametags themselves, but someone else most likely stepped in to write down Brandon's name. We all know exactly why xD
@@firelinecrazy7992 - I was referring to his writing lectures, which he uploaded sometime last year. His handwriting is pretty bad, but he himself likes to make fun of it during his classes. I was assuming pretty much all of his subscribers watched those, so I'm sorry for the confusion.
The concept of a child chosen by society mentioned at 36:00 is actually the main conflict in Beyond Redemption by Michael R. Fletcher. Fantastic book (have yet to read the rest of the series) where belief shapes reality and personal delusions, when strong enough, manifest as "powers".
@@cbpd89 yeah exactly how I feel, also after being in war Jordan tended not to go into to much detail and the forms let the reader imagine the fight instead of being stuck in the play by plays that some books have.
It's also nice because of how descriptive without actually describing anything the forms can be. Stuff like "the Boar Charges," and "Cat crosses the Courtyard," Invoke images in your mind without actually telling you exactly what happened, it's an elegant solution.
how. dare. you. Kidding. I totally agree with you, plus it emphasises how deeply into their training they are as the viewpoint character immediately recognise sword-forms while battling.
This criticism threw me, too. I never got the impression that the characters were stopping to think about what they were doing (with the exception of that one move you know the one I'm talking about that I won't spoil but that makes sense too). Jordan was relating to us what they did on instinct.
Stormlight was the first Epic Fantasy I had read, started it this year. I just was so caught up on every detail, I kinda of memorized dates, writed theories and all. But now, damn, I wasn't confused and making the math wrong, the timeline just, it's there i guess. (A little mad over how much I tried to understand the time flow in the books for nothing)
Wait, does Brandon not monetize this channel? I just realized that I never get ads when I’m watching his videos. You need to be payed for this Brandon!!
Yeah, sanderson will make plenty of money from using this platforn to make fans aware of his merch, i mean did you see that doomslug shirt? Take my money please!
Coe's talk about a finite budget reminded me of Spawn. Now that's an interesting magic system. The "given powers by powerful supernatural entity" thing's been done of course. But Spawn got a one-time finite amount of "magic" - once he spends it all, it's gone forever. This is both "hard" and "soft" because his precise powers aren't defined, but if he does something spectacular he's that much closer to hitting 0. AND he doesn't know his limit - can't feel it.
@Diego Palacios paiva I actually don't know a lot of Spawn lore; I just found the premise intriguing. I do know that once he learns about the limits, he tries to use his powers as little as possible
@Diego Palacios paiva Which again is intriguing because theoretically at any given time he could do something huge, I dunno, turn into a dragon, blow up a city block. But instead he tries to be efficient
Reminds me of Peter Parker's webbing cartridges, or the average Hollywood gun - it's always possible to run out of ammo, but only if it's dramatically appropriate - and there aren't actually rules for how many bullets a gun holds, nor any way of tracking how much webbing Spidey has left.
@@rmsgrey True except that in Spawn's case, there's no way to even awkwardly "reload" under pressure and suspense. If he's out, he's OUT - and that actually means he's dragged back down to Hell. So -- and again I only know the premise, not all the long history of the lore -- they can't have him "run out" dramatically in the moment like being out of ammo or web goop.
I really enjoyed this discussion. There is something deeply satisfying about listening to creative people discuss their own separate approach to their brand of artistic field. I listen to groups of horror directors do the same thing. Very inspiring.
@@MrAngryCucaracha Yeah, Horror Cafe. It's hosted by Clive Barker and has Roger Corman, John Carpenter and . . . others that are very good but I can't remember their names right this second.
Great stuff as always! David B. Coe is criminally underrated. I put him in the same category as Brandon when it comes to pumping out a steady stream of consistently good books that span multiple sub-genres of SFF.
I'm creating a story where nobody is born with manic but instead make deals with aliens that exchange powers for there characters' five senses. Exchanging all five of your senses nets you five powers of your choosing (granted you can't see, feel, smell, taste, or hear)
I absolutely LOVE high sacrifice magic systems like this. Something like "you have to be blind but you get hyper-sensoric abilities that allow you to orientate yourself" is really interesting I think because it gives the character agency automatically by giving the protagonist an obvious issue to deal with. But also it's interesting because of the intrinsic "everything comes at a cost" mentality that most cultures on Earth have.
@@milospollonia1121 that's what really draws me to this idea! I was thinking of making the protagonist blind just so that he can only make four trades if that's something he even wants
This is a great panel that helped me think more about the nuances of how magic is used in storytelling! It should probably be added to the conventions panel playlist at some point.
Hey, thanks for posting this one. I hadn't thought about "non-genetic" magic, before, but this one got me curious and informed the story I'm writing now
David B Coe at the 19 min mark is really insightful, as well as Marie Brennan at the 52 min mark and the answers through the 56 min mark. And that point about being respectful of the reader at the 59 min mark (also follow up immediately after).
I have always enjoyed various magic systems, whether it's more implied and part or the world or its genetic etc. So long as the the characters and plots are well written I'm usually in. 😀
I don't like comparing authors, because it's not nice to compare humans to eachother, but i have to say that my respect for Brandon grew even more when the other authors were "attacking" Harry Potter and Brandon did not play ball. I absolutely loved that.
Magic systems are best in my mind where it is accesible to everyone, but not just any one can reach mastery due to the ammount of work it takes. Almost like qualifying for the Olympics. Every one can become powerful and do amazing things...but that does not mean everyone will.
@@nickchavez720 Personally I’m more interested in exclusivity than "talent” a magic system that anyone can become adept at but most have no idea that it exists. I hate magic systems that need terminologies like muggle. Imagine finding out that magic exists but was inaccessible to you? I would probably kill myself out of rage.
@@draconariusking8328 I also like the idea of a universally accessible system of magic, but I also think that there has to be a talent element in order to make it realistic. Nen from HunterxHunter is a perfect example of this. Anyone can theoretically use nen, but very few know about it, and even if you do learn of it, some people simply catch on wayyyy faster than most, even though there’s no “midichlorian count”-esque mechanic that says they should.
@@draconariusking8328 I agree! This is something that has also always bothered me a lot. And seems to be in MOST magic systems for some reason. This is the whole reason why I clicked on this video, lol. Trying to figure out a non-genetic/talent based/"special people only" magic system that works well and makes sense for the book I'm writing.
I like the system of sympathetic magic from Patrick Rothfuss’ Kingkiller chronicles as an example of a “non-genetic” magic system. You learn it but some are better at it than others just like any subject, etc.
=================== Books Mentioned =================== Harry Potter Series - JK Rowling Wheel Of Time - Robert Jordan Lord Of The Rings - (You know who it is) Runelords - David Farland Tigana - Guy Gavriel Kay The Hand of the Sun King: Book One - J.T. Greathouse Elantris - Brandon Sanderson Stormlight Archive - Brandon Sanderson Mistborn - Brandon Sanderson The Thief Taker Series - DB Jackson NB: I might have missed some, or the title might've not been stated overtly. Please correct me in a reply.
I like Brandon's reference to the real science of the world when talking about his magic systems. I would only add that people don't confuse the magic and science in their stories (for each other) because even though both can follow logic (which is what I think he meant by that), they are still two very different elements to the world.
14:46 I personally have no problem with sensing power levels. When they tried to quantify the force in the Star Wars prequels with midichlorians, it didn't work as well for me. 34:52 I disagree 100% with this criticism. The sword form names is actually a great way of world building without taking you out of the action. It would only work as an example, if he described the swordform, where it originated, why it got that name, etc. 35:04 So what? You're going to have a blank page in the middle of your book to show how blank Rand's mind was? 🙃
i agree that the first criticism was dumb. There might be scientific ways to measure the source but we cant expect our characters to have these methods with their current technology. The second and third criticism kinda missed the mark but do have some merrit. I feel like using these swordforms was a pretty convenient way for RJ to get arround describing fight correography in detail. He just calls certain moves some arbitrary name and the readers have to come up with the choreography themselfs.
I've been made my own non-genetic magic system (maybe this will be not so non-genetic or more like "inborn" wit it). The people in my story got their magic by the *Sea* 's generosity. The rule is simple: whoever born at the sea, will granted a gift of magic. Because the sea itself seeing them as their own child. So, almost every sailors are basically a magician. I won't spoiled the rest lol.
That might sound ridiculous, but I like magic system in Naruto. It's a combination of both genetic and non-genetic. Everyone can learn how to use chakra, but not everyone will be able to reach the top. You have to be born with it, or be exceptional in other ways.
I love Brandon but I feel so sad for the other authors because most of the questions are related to Brandon's magic systems and it seems that no one had really came for them 😭 Great interview btw, love listening to this man :')
Theres another kind of magic system we dont really talk about that much, which cannot be confined as a hard magic system nor a soft magic system. Youll find it almost always in anime and manga, and rarely anywhere else. Jojos and One Piece are really classic examples of this. Technically, theres no rules on what a devil fruit or a stand power can or cant be, except for a few ground rules like how all devil fruit users cant swim and stands can only be seen by other stand users. But the powers are clearly defined in their limitations from a case by case basis. I think this allows for the flexibility from a worldbuilding perspective that soft magic writers want, while still making something solid to latch onto for us hard boys. Plus, having a special ability that is uniquely one characters just feels nice.
Pierre Grimbert did a similar thing with a pregnant character in his Ji series, and it was really cool: the basic premise of the series is that there's a place where gods are born and shaped, and a pregnant character spends time there, which has consequences in a sequel. I won't spoil it for yall, but I recommend it.
Completely disagree about their critique of WoT naming sword forms. It feels less like the characters thinking it through mid fight and more like an observer naming them. It allows for visualisation of the forms without describing the physical movements of their bodies; each form connotes an image to me.
Quick question: Who here wouldn't absolutely love a comedic character who is desperately trying to educate the entire team about Alistair the Alliterative when everyone else is fighting for their lives?
Will someone shut the dam bard up? said the barbarian as he swung an axe larger than he was. I couldn't give a bent copper about Alistair the Alternative. Alliterative. Do you want me to split you with my axe?
Make it actually part of the system. The more people present that understand the background and intricacies of the spell the more effective it is. Jujutsu Kaisen does this to give its exposition an in world purpose.
The problem with the Implications of Harry Potter is that all the kids sleep through History- which is taught by a dusty old ghost. Hermione is the only one who uses her brain in the series, which is another reason it can stay so light hearted. Harry just isn't very smart.
It was sort of an odd revelation to me growing up that Harry was sort of a magical jock. Like, he's best at Defense against the Dark Arts and Quidditch right? Fighting and Sports. He just had that archetypical dork look so I didn't think about it that way for a while.
How do they not study the technology of a world(muggle) they supposedly coexist with? It’s so stupid that most wizards didn’t care to understand or learn muggle culture. How else would you properly assimilate? Otherwise the Rowling magic community would be super small, interbred, ignorant, and highly racist/speciesist. We already know that the last is true.
He got Es, a few As, and an O in DADA all while under the watchful gaze of a literal inquisitor, suffering under insomnia, and running a secret club that he taught, and you think he's not smart? Harry is way above average intelligence. And Hermione isn't like a genius, she just studies harder than he does. I don't know why people think Harry is dumb.
@@moomoodefloof The point is not to assimilate. They have a muggle studies class that no one really takes aside from Hermione which Ron finds hilarious given that she's muggleborn. It's so looked down upon by the pureblood fanatics that the Muggle Studies teacher is actually killed for inciting bad behaviors in children. Plus there's the law about the statute of secrecy which you can go to jail for breaking apparently. Never mind the implications that has for mixed marriages and halfblood children. I think it's supposed to be a parallel of Jim Crow and apartheid
This is interesting because (whether you enjoy it or not), My Hero Academia ***SPOILERS FOR THE MANGA AND ANIME ----- DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T READ OR WATCHED IT*** actually hits on a lot of these points. The main protagonist is born with literally ZERO magic (hero powers or quirks, but I will refer to as magic) yet he inherits a piece of magic (Quirk) which has the potential to become the most powerful. But this is only because of the people who had it before him and because of the character himself. It's a very interesting dynamic and something which hasn't been explored often in western media (from my experience).
I read a lot of Mercedes Lackey books(Heralds of Valdemar/Velgarth), and love her magic systems. Basicaly there is a pool of magical power that a few people can tap into. This requires a natural Mage level gift and training, plus some are stronger than others. (Some can barly manage a basic fire spell to light a camp fire, others can build a hotpool for bathing for eg). Blood magic users tends to be evil. Then you have the self powered personal 'gifts' of the Heralds (everthing from mild empathy telepathy, fetching gifts up to the one or two pyrokenetics. (Not Mages)
Potholes (breaks in the world building) are potholes. You travel down the road the story is taking and occasionally the is a bump. If the journey is interesting you ignore occasional small bumps. The bigger the bumps and the more often they come the less the top is worth it. That's why I hated the water of irreplaceable resources for comparatively little on Waterworld but ignored it in Mad Max II
I think this is another areas where the MICE quotient is relevant. Idea-based magic systems will be "hard", character-based magic (like which depends on moral issues, like moral purity, or being able to make a sacrifice to exchange for magical power) will be soft. Event-based magic would be situations that depend on an event happening that won't repeat for a long while, like an astronomical conjunction) is pretty hard; and setting-based magic will depend on relationships or status, or environment, can be hard or soft.
The core point in the “believable” is internal consistence, I believe. If a setting is consistent its cosmogony, history of nations, and the sort of people who lives in it belong together. As long as you are able to explain the system without being boring it will be believable. The most believable cosmogony I ever saw is Aristotle’s Physics of Natural Places. If happens to not be how our universe is, sadly, but it explains all things (that normal humans see with their own senses) with gorgeous simplicity and perfect consistency. However, explain a world without being boring is tricky. Use familiar elements makes that task easier. And New Darwinism is fairly familiar to about every audience able to read nowadays. It happens to be the way most of us believe the (arguably) real world functions. Most people probably have a cloudy and imperfect notion about “Evolution” and “natural selection”, but they have a general notion, and that points in the same general direction. Which is, broadly speaking, the direction New Darwinism points to. No one has to go in the fine specific points of Genetics to get that familiar taste. People do selective breeding since before written language, the notion that you get animals a lot more aggressive if you cross the most aggressive dogs you have with the each other on purpose for a few hundred generations is so self-evident that any “scientist” who tries to “disprove” it will sound like a liar. For good reason. Is an interesting exercise to imagine how would be the world if was not a general truth (general, not universal) that children inherit their physical characteristics and temperament from their parents. Broadly speaking. Or how would be a world where individuals where actually “born equal” in potential, with the same advantages and disadvantages (even if only in the organic level). One thing that is obvious from start is that a setting with any of those characteristics would be radically different from the setting we are living in. The (arguably) real world.
Also, to be fair, I think Marvel is gonna do the interdimensional travel with the MCU really well because they have an incredible team working on this stuff and have decades of successes/failures in these endeavors from which to draw inspiration and learn.
I think of the suspension of disbelief is a kind of willing contract between the reader and author. Both parties must act in good faith or one side will back out.
