The only link I’ve ever been aware of is the link between Lugh and the earlier continental Celtic deity, Lugus (who Caesar associated with Mercury). You covered all this ground well. Lugus’ spread was very expansive in the old Celtic world. In Iberia, his worship is attested to in the names of Celtiberian tribes like the Llugones (one of the longest standing tribes of the Astur to resist Roman conquest in the decades long Cantabrian Wars) and the names of various towns (e.g. Lugo in Galicia), rivers, etc.
J. Smith I don’t have enough comprehensive information on the CeltIberians (in the English language) at my disposal to reference the sort of direct evidence you cited. I’m simply sharing the limited information I have confidence in and recall of.
J. Smith I’m not particularly interested in the semantics you’re bringing into this. You and I both know the term ‘Celtiberian’ is contemporarily used to describe the Celtic/Celticized tribes of Iberia in general. I’d hope you’re above such pedantry.
Lugh-cifer? Fulminology and current present throughout all 3 realms. Potentially blinding and binding depending on how he is received. But always bearing light and ideas.
So, within the Norse/Germanic mythos, Loki appears to be an alien god who was a hostage among the Vanir. Thus, it makes sense to me that if Lugh was the chief among the Celtic gods; then, the Germans would want to reframe Lugh as a trickster. Just as Wotan/Odin was seen as a trickster by the +ians. Thus, my read of Loki is as Germans trying to say the chief of the Gael's is a shady trickster among their Gods. So, if Lugh was parallel to Wotan/Odin within the religion of the Gaels, it stands to reason the Germans would reframe their mythos so that Lugh became Loki. The heroic god of the Celts becoming the A-hole foil of the German gods... because, 1000 years of +ianity has shown that Germans and Celts will fight over any minor difference in religion.
I literally contemplated this just a few days ago after thinking about the lugii tribe and figured Loki could have been a bastardization of Lugh due to some cultural disconnect between the celts and Scandinavians after the Hallstatt period. It just made too much sense Loki is associated with horses, snakes, and life and death.
Loki must have been very important before being demoted to a sidekick of the Aesir. Father/mother of the world axis (Sleipnir/Yggdrasil), the world serpent (Jormungandr), the eater of the world (Fenris), and Death itself (Hel). An arbiter between order and chaos (the gods and the titans), he will die in Ragnarok whilst killing the father of the human social classes (Heimdal). I'm not going to go into whether his name means "fire" or not, but it is noteworthy that he is nearly always depicted as being bound, something which usually happens to sun/fertility gods. Every single one of those items confer upon Loki some pretty heavy cosmological importance and cannot have been just some random mistake.
Yes, the video was intended to push back against a concept I see pushed out in some internet square that has absolutely no basis. I will be doing much more in this regard in the future. Glad you like it.
There are some obvious similarities between some of the Celtic gods and the Norse gods. But I find it difficult overall to compare them. Some facets are obvious, like Taranis and Thor, but it's similar to comparing Thor and Zeus. They are as different as they are similar. The Celtic and Norse mythologies are unique.
True but humanity migrated from South to North so Norse mythology had to have been somewhat based/inspired on Celtic myth. Lugh was was clever and wasnt afraid to use tricks and deception but he also had a spear crafted by the Druids with the same abilities as the one crafted for Odin by the Dwarfs. He was also more characterized as a leader than anything
I think the Aesir and Vanir are 2 branches of the same original culture of ice-age northwestern europe where Vanir Lugh/Loki represented those that sunk/stayed/survived the flood while the Aesir and Odin were those that fled or conquered the rest of europe, eventually merging with or becoming the Indo-europeans.
in my opinion it would not be correct to make comparisons of gods from different pantheons, each god has its identity and personality and its own stories which make them unique, according to their country of origin
@@herbertrichard8203 I totally agree. It's ok you are just making a simple comparison for a quick idea about the god, but it isn't accurate if you really want to know anything about the god.
I'd argue that a much closer analogue to Loki in Irish myth is Bricriu, who is definitely an agent of chaos. The Romans explicitly equated Lugus with Mercury and Woden was similarly identified - it's no coincidence that Latin dies Mercurii becomes Wednesday in English: Woden's day. But on the other hand there's no particular reason to assume any particular connection between Celtic and Germanic deities.
I know there's no actual basis to this, but the show American Gods weaved an interesting alternative mythology ***SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER*** The Leprechaun, Mad Sweeney, is eventually identified as a degraded version of Lugh suffering amnesia. One scene has some regressed by Mr. Ibis when he recalls slaying his father (Balor) and remembers that it was actually Mr. Wednesday/Odin he killed. The dialogue in that scene makes it clear that truth is a relative matter, which I believe is the writers saying they're just being invented with mythology. If we're going to be inventive ourselves, we can put the differences between Lugh and Loki down to a matter of perspective. Just like Odin in Scandinavia was a relatively benign god, he could have been Balor to us in Ireland.
So I am a little confused - you said that Lugh (like odin) chooses the winner of a battle. But I thought the Morrígan decides the fate of warriors and by that extension wouldn't she be the one who decides the Victor of a battle? Now I am aware that the role of the gods aren't as clear cut as something like dnd or so would let one to believe. I'm pretty sure I'm missing something as I am really new to celtic mythology. So I'd be really grateful for your insight! P.S. Fascinating video!
Actually another genealogy I found in the old king lists is very clear that in fact Sualtam, Cuchulain's "father" descends from the line of Lug. This seems to be the more correct genealogy as it was used in calculating relationships within the various Sil to establish kingship rights. The lists do not mention Sualtam explicitly, but he is brother to Fergus, and there are several examples of his genealogy linking back to Lugh. Fergus MacRoith, son of Roich daughter of Echach (horse) son of Carpri (Charioteer) son of Lugaid son of Lug Luaith (Lug the Quick/Ash - Luaithreán refers to a lightning strike in that it turns things to ash), son of Eithnenn Caiss (Ethliu Curly-Haired). So, it turns out that actually Cuchulain is both mythically and physically a descendent of Lug, but then the same goes for Cu Roi, and about half of the other famous warriors and kings.
You've given me different takes on myths I've not heard before, and also bringing to my attention different reasons why someone might think Lugh and Loki are similar that, while they are shallow, they only scratch the surface, and the reasons why they are dissimilar are equally as shallow. They are not the same deity, and I"m not going to try and pass them off as such. I've worked with both of them in my personal 'religious' practice for years and their energies are too different, while in other ways being too alike. It took me years to figure it out and in that time the both of them refused to attend a solitary sacred space I had made without the other. Lugh's station among the Tuatha de Danann is similar to Odin's station among the Aesir. Loki's station among the Jotun is a step down from that of Lugh and Odin among their own folk, as it is Loki's first wife Angrboda who rules the Jotun. Lugh, Odin, and Loki share many similar abilities, but magic and foresight make none of them tricksters by virtue of them simply having those abilities. Lugh is commonly associated with the waning sun and autumn storms by modern neopagans, though many seem to forget or gloss over the autumn storms because they think they can talk a hungry lion out of eating them if they're standing bleeding in front of it. Odin is commonly associated with divination, kingship, and the dead though the last part is only a third correct because he only has power over the dead slain in battle and that is only after Freyja has had her turn to pick the best of them for herself. Loki is commonly compared to the Christian Devil (notice I did not say Satan, that figure has its own connotations separate from the more childlike view most folks have of the Devil), and those who keep this view of him are missing out on half of what remains of the mythology they're trying to carve their religion out of. Me complaining about people stumbling around half-awake aside, I'm going to dive right in with my own personal impressions of Lugh and Loki. I can't comment on Odin because I do not currently work with him, though I can reasonably infer because so many of his character traits and energetic imprints are left behind in what remains of northern European myth. I will try to avoid doing the last bit. Lugh is a king who keeps order, using his magical gifts toward that end and even making it in the first place. Loki, while certainly not a king, is a consort to a chieftess (not a docile queen) who works toward keeping the natural order that she did not make, and he aids her in this, using his magical gifts toward that end. They both seem to have similar roles in cosmic order: Lugh turns the seasons, Loki turns life to meet those changes. Lugh is the wave of holy inspiration at the altar of a sacred space, Loki is the sharp spike of breathless anticipation with a tingle of magic at its gate. Lugh can be the procrastination of an avoided project sometimes, though usually he's more of the "get off the butt and do it"; and while Loki is similar enough in this particular aspect, he is also the "talk someone else into doing it while making it seem like they offered of their own accord". To get a clear look at exactly how similar/different Lugh and Loki are to/from eachother with as little personal bias as possible, the Christian bias also gets in the way. What did each culture find to be acceptable? Not acceptable? What was the smallest community unit in the culture and how much emphasis was placed on it? How was a person treated if they stood outside of that? I didn't do much recent research before I started poking on this comment, but I have done extensive research over the years because I find the subject matter interesting. I figured out early on that the modern sense of what is and isn't acceptable is not the same as it was in either of the respective cultures at hand here. If any one of us tried to act the way they did, our peers looking at us sideways would be the least of our worries. Something else to consider is that people from these time periods didn't stay put all the time. They travelled, a lot. It may be possible that somewhere along the line, myths and gods were compared. I think I sucked at trying to explain this whole thing. Going to try one last time because I'm falling asleep, which might be why I sucked at the explanation. Lugh is cosmic order reflected in the nature of the community, group, establishment, etc. Loki is wild nature reflected in the nature of the human condition. There is no true chaos in either of these, we just have more difficulty understanding one than we do the other. The one we don't understand can bite us in the rear if we aren't careful, and it reminds us that we don't truly understand the other as well as we'd like to think. I had originally intended to clarify the reasoning behind Baldur's death (why it was revenge) and why Loki is commonly associated with fire, but I ran out of brain juice and you can trip over it easily enough when walking into a search engine. I also won't go near the latest portrayals of northern European myth in pop culture, made me cringe.
I like the facets of the Gods you see. They are both forces that put Destiny into motion. The one because He pushes literally everything that _IS_ into motion, while the other only pushes through changes that no one wants to go through, but which must. This is, of course, just one facet of the deities.
So, also, to be frank, I'm not entirely convinced that Loki exists as anything more than a force of Odin, a Consequence or Effect of Odin, who, like Lugh, orchestrates the pandemonium uf Infinity, the "action" of life...
@@Lu11abi He absolutely can be his own, apart from Odin. Especially when connected with Lugh. They can also be the same person, both ways, in my experience, or all three apart. I do find that discussions trying to parse different deities from each other end up simplified in their idea of what it is to be 'a separate deity'. These discussions tend to avoid the webbed, animist worldview, and not take into account the fact that identity is fluid, the paradox of simultaneous separateness and oneness. Especially in the 'west' (whatever that is) we have been used to another way of ordering the world for centuries, a very humanocentric world order, and our individualism plays a large role in how we even talk about both spirits, deities and our collective dead. Many people don't like engaging with the place where the mud is, and where identity is a mutable container serving a purpose, rather than an absolute. It's ego-threatening. Thing is - It is also where it's really at.
Is it not possible here that Loki was perhaps originally conceived as a son of Lugh? There is an obvious association of Lugh with thunderstorms, although how that relates to the rest of his character I can't exactly say. With that said, Lonnbeimnech (fierce-striker) is one of Lugh's epithets, whilst Fárbauti (fear-beater) is Loki's father. His mother is Laufey (leafy). For anyone who denies Loki's connection to fire, well... it's in more than just his name. I think it's quite obvious that his name is derived from the same source as the word "lock" and refers to knots, to the binding nature of oaths, and also to his nature as an entangler of sorts. But, the analogy of his parents' names (lightning striking tinder) is quite obvious.
I doubt that the Loki we have from the medieval Icelandic literature presents him in a way that the pagan Norsemen would of understood him but there are hints that do suggest that he may have some older or perhaps indirect relationship to some figures from Celtic mythology. Loki killed an otter that turned out to be the son of the dwarf king Hreidmar in animal form and recompensed him with a cursed treasure so that the king was slain and his treasure claimed by his other son Fafnir who then assumed the form of a dragon to guard it. This dragon was slain by the Norse hero Sigurd at the urging of his foster-father Regin (another of Hreidmar's sons) who then instructed him to cut out and cook the dragon's heart but to eat no part of it. Of course Sigurd burns his finger on the heart and puts it in his mouth tasting it and immediately gains the ability to understand the language of the birds learning from them the truth about his foster-father, the treasure and the dragon. Similarly the Irish hero Fionn Mac Cumhaill is instructed to cook but not eat the Salmon of Knowledge by the poet Finn Eces, but burns and sucks his thumb gaining it's powers. The Welsh hero Gwion Bach is instructed by the witch Ceridwen to watch and stir the Cauldron of Inspiration for one year which is full of a potion she is intending to give to her son Morfran, instead three drops spring out landing on Gwion's thumb which he puts in his mouth gaining all it's powers. He flees assuming various forms and Ceridwen pursues also in various forms, in one example he becomes a salmon and she pursues him in the form of an otter. Loki also assumes the form of a salmon to hide from the gods but Kvasir, a wise being born from the collective saliva of the gods, sees the shape of the net that Loki has thrown in his fire in the ashes and has the gods make a new one to catch the fugitive who he also correctly guesses has taken the form of a fish in a nearby pool. This same Kvasir was later murdered by two dwarfs who mixed his blood with honey to create the Mead of Poetry which is the source of all poetic inspiration. Loki seems to have originally had some role to play in divine inspiration not as it's source but rather as some kind of adversarial catalyst which triggers it's activation. In Norse mythology he often takes female form and gives birth, as a mare he birthed Odin's eight-legged horse and in the underworld he birthed eight witches over the course of eight winters, while the witch Ceridwen eventually caught and ate Gwion Bach and gave birth to him in his new form who became the poet Taliesin.
There were also a group of people referred to as Lugi in the early AD who lived in what is now Southern Poland who probably have some name commonality with Lugh and had geographic proximity to the peoples from whom stories of Loki come (including Balts=Baldr?). You never met an Irish trickster?
Your theory that Loki's name has to do with knots makes sense to me. Loki is chained up in the underworld after all. Plus the word "Loki" is probably cognate with the English "lock," which can refer a mechanism for trapping people or to a knot of hair.
Cnut = a braided whip, Harticnut means severe whip. Loki is also cognate with 'luck' what in latin translates as Felix (the lucky) or Festus (the feaster, playboy) In hebrew/aramaic/arabic it translates as Amram/ Omri/ Omar/ Imran (the prosperous). Close related to this are the names Baruch/ Barak/ barrack (the rich) and Zacharias (the blessed). Jacob and Esau were a Twin, by their birth Jacob held a grip (lock) on Esau's heel. Jacob means griper, grabber, pretender, overtaker and thus also inheritor, heir, prince. Jacobs mother is the witch Rebecca/ Rebekah , Re/ Ra = Sun and Beekah = valley. Literally the mother sets the boundaries for her blind husband (Isaac/yithsak), what is basically a dying (and rising) sun-god. The sun rests between 2 mountains (the twin) in a valley (the mother). she is trapping her husband. Also the mother ties (knots) goat-skin on Jacobs arms to betray old Isaac. As a fire-god Loki/Jakub is a priest or hously man where as Esau lives in the wild. a bound life versus an unbound life-style. A binder and a looser.
What do you think about any parallels between Balor and Odin? Both have one eye and chieftains of their tribes. One of Odin’s given names is Báleygr, meaning “flashing eye”, or “blaze eye”, I’ve read Balor also has a name meaning meaning something very similar. Beyond this I don’t see much parallel. Has anyone else pondered this? I’d also draw somewhat of a connection with Lugh and Odin in that they became named chief after the loss of hand of the previous chieftain.
@Ben Whitney I agree with Dagda having some Odinic qualities, especially as having “all father” type titles, and association with poetry and inspiration. It’s interesting that the Dagda has a club that can both kill and resurrect, much like Thor with Mjollnir. I don’t think any of these deities ever will have fool proof direct correlation with each other, but it’s easy to find common themes between many indo European gods; hammer gods, spear gods, one eye, thunder, sky, rain, underworld, horses, poetry, etc.
@@garygnu4629 yeah i never see a concrete connection, i always viewed them as cousins. Doing research online ive seen plenty of stories where The Morrigan even helped call people for Odin. So i see them in a distant familial setting
@@benjin3993 The All-Father title is much disputed. Most scholars now believe that in origin it seems he never had this title. Also, there are many hints that Lug also was considered one-eyed in his inauspicious form. Cuchulain becomes one-eyed in his rage-state. Lug closes one eye when performing magic, and he has charioteers named "Fir Golla" one eyed man. He is the grandfather of one called "Fir Suilne" man of the eye, as well as the ancestor of a certain Eochaid who is one-eyed, and then surrenders his remaining eye due to a malicious trickster. He is guided by an unnamed mysterious stranger by helpful magics who brings him to a place of many reeds which when he digs there creates a lake. When he washes his face, his eyes are healed. The Christian god in then invoked, but called "The god of bright winds". and the genealogy had Leo Lamfhada (Lion Longhand) descend from a figure called Gaeth (Wind) son of Imgaeth (Stormwind). Clearly the genealogy is being used to express an elemental connection.
Zebedeus = the prosperous twin-father of John and James. a trinity to compare with Hermes (mercurius), Aplollo (destroyer, Mars) and Pan (revivor, Venus).
In my personal gnosis given from both Loki and Odin is that Lugh is a bit like a combination of both deities which was later split off into Loki and Odin by the Germans. This is just personal gnosis but I still personally believe it.
O hEachaid meaning Horseman, Hoy, Haughey, Hoey, Dal Fiatch dynasty, The Darini, Clanna Dedad, Tuatha De Danann ancestry, Haey East Iceland, Old Norse, Hoy Island Orkney Islands, very much enjoying your channel, we have all come along way.
I first watched this video 3 years ago, when I started on my journey into druidry and wanted to learn more about the Celtic gods. Only recently, when I've been working with the Norse pantheon for about a year by itself, did I Loki admit to me that they were one in the same. I know that this is more of a "scholarly" than spiritual channel, and my claims are only UPG, but it gave me some comfort, knowing that Loki was always waiting for me. He and I have formed a very close and dedicated relationship.
Lugh's great strength unlike Thor is not his great physical might but his ability to manipulate the outcome of a battle with his mind in this way he is closer to Athena in the way he manipulates battle strategy. This is very different that Loki who is seen as a trickster who uses magic to manipulate and deceive his opponents in battle rather than the type of trickery used by Lugh which is more about cleverness and wit than it is about illusion and deception.
I understand Loki is, who the Sumerians called enki! A creator god & god of mischief. The god that helps man by gifting them with knowledge from the gods, in which Enlil wanted to destroy humans (great flood)
@@annemiller6360 I should be more clear. I don't believe they are the 'same'. Thing with Loki is, being a major catalyst in the affairs of God's & humans... Just a tool for 'Wrawlda' or spirit. Chaos, creating, destroying... There are to many parallels... 🔥
And Lugh was killed for violating the law about Ogma. Yet you have him alive when he was dead. Why didn't Aengus and Midir go after Lugh for murdering Ogma? Why did they wait for Ogma's sons to do it?
Honestly the deaths of Celtic god's needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. Apparently balor killed macha in the second battle of math tuiread and yet she's still around to curse Ulster during the times of cu chulainn, the dagda apparently died in the beginning of the battle andnyet he's mentioned numerous times after very much alive, and lugh was dead apparently and yet appears to cu chulainn aswell. The only God we can say definitely died at one point is Nuada. Also where can I read about the exact circumstances of lughs death?
Is it possible that Lugh is, instead, related some way to Utgarda-Loki? He seems almost like an aspect of the Prajapati type deity, the supreme creator, craftsman, and cosmic, impelling fire? That COULD explain some of the conflation with the more traditionally known Loki.
The moon is generally associated with skill. There is a figure called Luan in the Dindsenchas. Luan can mean radiance, or moon. I doubt the moon god would be seen as a significant ancestral figure like Elatha.
@@FortressofLugh Are you going to discuss the details of the Personification of the Moon since there is no mention of it in Celtic Mythology ? You have Sirona Gaulish deity associated with Diana. Arianrhod and cerridwen. Someone told me that Aengus could be a possible Moon god or Midir ?
Lots of cosmologies have both Gods of the Moon _AND_ Goddesses of the Moon. So there's no rule that there is a single representtive of any celestial body. Lots of mythos have entire families around the sun, the moon, dusk and dawn and so on. We may not understand how ancients thought about the sun and moon in any way. Thy might think we're idiots for thinking they had anything like a "Moon God" at all. It's just not that clear in the actual Mythologies...
Through at least one genealogical tract. Though Sualtam MacRoich is also the decendent of Lugh (as is Fergus). Fergus MacRoith, son of Roich daughter of Echach (horse) son of Carpri (Charioteer) son of Lugaid son of Lug Luaith (Lug the Quick/Ash - Luaithreán refers to a lightning strike in that it turns things to ash), son of Eithnenn Caiss (Ethliu Curly-Haired).
It is funny you mention this, for instance Thor wasn't always known as Thor, he had older names amongst the Germanic folk like Thunor (used by the Saxons), Thunraz, Donnar, Thundaraz and the find knew him as Ukko, but here is the thing, Thor before he had Mjolnir, he used a axe, Taranis the Celtic God of Thunder used a axe same with Perun the Slavic god of Thunder. Hell Perun has been depicted with a hammer and a axe.
🤨 The over Moral of Lugh is at the exact opposite end of the spectrum (Order-Chaos) compared to Loki the mischief maker. THE OBVIOUS SIMILARITIES ARE NO DIFFERENT from any other deity sharing characteristics with that of another culture who's deity hailed from the opposite end of the earth. Loki before the Christian sources rewrote and told fabrications, was said to be born a Fire brand and his birth is explicitly described as being born of a Flame. Lugh was a bearer of Wisdom hence the meaning of light which is his radiance and is not the same as Loki as a bear of flame and fire.
Loki is not the son of Odin though. He is the brother of Odin. That is a common misconception associated with the period of Asatru. Lugh is the son of Dagda, not the brother. This could of course be a symbolic rather than physical meaning. I think there are similarities yes but if one was to consider the gods as archetypes of human consciousness, it changes the whole perspective one would read the sagas and mythology. To gain some clarification on this subject I highly recommend Bock Saga. It presents a different perspective of everything concerning Norse mythology. It will clarify a lot of things concerning the other sagas and also now allow the true connections to be made concerning other tribes on the planet. It even presents root and van language terms so you can properly interpret the terms being used and the languages in which we speak to this day. Best to you and your path of studies 🤘🏼
some poetic elements do overlap from what little I know of Veles, but ultimately no. Veles' myth is the reverse of Lugh and the similarities are surface level. The mythical roll Lug plays is king and lightning-wielder who drives the underworld forces beneath the sea. In Vedic sources he is probably closer in his roll to Indra, Marutes or Rudra. Like Indra, he kills the son/s of Danu, secures crops and is skilled in many arts(Samildanach/Satakratu) with Indra also called "lord of light" and "winner of dawn" and "Skillful". Lug is consistently said to be the leader of war when not depicted as the king. There also may be a suggestion that the original enemy fought was a serpent, but another video will come eventually dealing with that.
Yeah I think that Lugh is more a reflect of Slavic Jarilo, but the "growing old" Autumn Jarilo, so...Svetovid maybe? Veles isn't Autumn as much as He is Winter, when the solar Life God is dead or an infant (who Veles Himself is taking care of in the hero's helpless state, I love that detail SOOO Much! Veles is so cool, lol) but that aside I am looking at the same Pashun wild-God Hermes Pan Wanderer In-Between_Things associations that you are...
