Nothing Brakes Better Than The Ford Mustang Dark Horse - Wait, What?! 

People complain a lot. I also grew up with the metric system, but I find it interesting to have to do some quick, rough conversions from imperial to metric in my head. For miles to km I just multiply by 1.5, for feet to meters I divide by 3, for lbs to kg I just divide by 2, for inches to cm (I know, not standard in engineering) I just multiply by 2.5.

Could you please edit these into the video as text? Or whatever is easy for you.

Thanks, it took 10 minutes before I understood any measurement, and the unit was two car lengths 😅

Hi, great work, great video, but as a metric system user myself I can assure you there is no unit of speed named "kph", which literally means 1000/hour. I'm sure you mean km/h, meaning 1000 meters per hour. Again, this doesn't take anything away of the great quality of your videos that I enjoy watching every time!

@@lightbulbetcetera6989 No, kph means kilometer per hour, it literally spells out to that. If you really want to get technical it could mean kilopascal hours, which is a nonexistent unit (because what would it measure, pressure for a while) but definitely not 1000/hour.

60-0 instantly.

Isn't it more like, going sideways into a curb?

True. But now Ford is sending Mustang buyers to driving school. Let's see if that helps.

Big Brake *hates* this one easy trick.

Sideways into a curb at cars and coffee is quicker than that!

I don't always understood the white board. I do however understand 60 to 0 in 87 feet, which is LESS than ten yards! I understand that is crazy. 75 to zero should be the one they test though.

@@dianapennepacker6854 Amazing how you use two length units, that literally the majority of the world population understand neither. Maybe try switching out one for an SI system unit next time :)

All hail the mighty whiteboard!

@@dianapennepacker6854less than 30 yards.

@@hashgeek929 I was joking, but looking back it was a poor joke for text. Ya know meaning I don't understand the white board or anything for that matter. Cheers!

Love this comment, thanks for sharing your kind words!

That is actually the top reason to use standard, I want more whiteboard, not less! 😅

Freedom units are more betters! 😂

That’d put me out of a job!

​@@EngineeringExplainedThis we have to avoid by any means! Keep on going the way you like it!

@@EngineeringExplained it's a good thing you converted it to "2 car lengths" at one point, cause I was about to click away due to not having a clue what these foreign numbers meant.

also helps that it weighed like 2k lbs less than a modern car lol

​@@ihavealife002🎯

I think Mustang only makes up for 1 of the 583864838474774 modern cars that the commenter meant.

​@@ihavealife002the weight doesn't really matter at all, as long as the brakes are strong enough the weight is a non factor. The hard part is the tractionm

wonder what the rx7 would do completely stock with a new set of modern tires in the stock size

It’s only because of the tires that are equipped that give it superior grip to slow down before lock up

​@@udpbooterYup! And tire wear will be atrocious with 4000 lbs, regardless of how well the tires perform in a short test.

It’s too heavy to beat the 3RS on a track

Most of the top performance cars are running Michelin Pilot "Cup 2" tires from the factory.

I assume they test it with factory tires, whatever comes with it when you buy it.

that doesn't work this way, though. cars come with different weights plus different tire widths. that's why you need a tire specific for the car you're testing. when you seemingly "equalize" the tires, then it'll coincidentally suite one car, but not others. also, breaking distance testing is essentially tire grip testing. no breaking system is weak enough to actually play the limiting factor. yes, suspension and weight distribution are the other factors that also play a role.

@@HxTurtle To some extent. Tire width and tire compound are not coupled. My thought isn't just about modern cars, but also historical ones. So often car manufacturers brag about their engineering, when a lot could be contributed to the tire manufacturers improvements. Personally I'd like to be able to separate car improvements from tire improvements

@@IrocZIV what are you trying to say? tire width and compound are directly related with each other. every compound has an optimal force that it needs to be compressed with in order to work best. is the force too high, it stops to behave like a rubber and turns into some sorta stone, in short. the wider the tire, the softer the compound needs to be in order to operate in the optimal working window.

Fast catch, there.

Lmao 😂

breaks bones *

It wasn't built by fiat tho

That was my first thought!

Ford is actually generally reliable. At least in Europe or Africa or Asia. The new Mustang should be no exception. Not sure about the other American-market Fords though

It has the most downforce then. Also you can apply more brake at higher speed without locking due to rotational inertia of the wheels.

why it front/rear grip should be equal to maximaze grip?

@@vercingetorige400 tires are load sensitive. They have less friction per applied load as more load is applied. Hence you want as much balance as you can typically.

​@@ruleslawyer they are load sensitive but i think standard weight distribution and therefore weight is nowhere near to max out the grip, so you can extract much more by those with weight transfer and front biased brakes. All kinda of shenanigans can happen during the dynamic response of the body, suspensions and tyres loading and unloading and changing the grip, but with a CG in the average height, weight transfer is a necessity and an imbalance is inevitable. Thank god for the abs

​@@vercingetorige400at any given autocross, the top 10% of drivers can out stop abs. I know, I was one of them.

Thanks, he seems to think only americans watch his channel.😅

Brabham bt46 already proved this concept 45 years ago

@@CasparPietersen The Jim Hall Chaparral 2J had snowmobile engine driven fans to create suction in 1970, 8 years before Brabham. The car was promptly disallowed the next year of CanAm racing. This was from the era of when CanAm cars were faster than F1 cars.

As many had pointed out fan cars have been a thing way longer than 30 years.

I appreciate that! 🙏

Yeah it’s pretty interesting, I need to chat with Car and Driver about it! Found the chart right at the end of researching this video (linked in video description).

​@EngineeringExplained I would speculate that a significant contribution of that charts variation is thermodynamic effects at the rotor interface.

This is a joke.....right?

@@clc2328 This is a joke....right? OP makes a valid comment and includes data. You don't like his comment and data? In addition to surface, there are other factors in play here, such as ambient temp, tire compound, PSI, brake pad friction coefficient...etc. My 2019 SS 1LE on OEM tires and pads, which are not as sticky or as aggressive pad compound, stops from 60 MPH in 93'. On similar tires, surface and brake pads I'd be surprised if it didn't outperform dh mustnag. Which is a joke... even if it didn't cost as much as a ZL1/C8 Z51.

nope, if you think you can predict what kind of braking YOU can do with YOUR car within 5 feet based on tire and pad selection, you have a lot of growing up to do @@FL50ssp

McMurtry Speirling will have one next year

That word ‘need’ you are using: I don’t think it means what you think it means!

Wasn't the Tesla hypercar going to have air boosters for braking and cornering? Not heard about that project for years.

Can I have an automatic parachute please

I wonder what would happen if that fan car could shoot the air out the front during braking instead of out the back.

The Dark Horse has Pirelli P Zero Trofeo RS tires. I'm sure the carbon fiber wheels also helped.

The most optimal braking for any 4-wheel car is to have equal normal load along all 4 tires. It's imperative that there is a good rear brake bias to not throw all the weight to the front. You're correct about the weight from a simplistic physics analysis, but in reality, there is also significant tuning that gets you peak decelerating long g's.

depends if you're talking about emergency braking, for your safety, or braking that you can plan like for a corner, on the road or on a track. on the road, braking distance should only matter for emergncy braking, there is no reason to brake with 100% power before a corner. Unless you have some carbon ceramic brakes that need to get up to temperature, you always want to stay within a certain safety margin (lets say20-50% depending on people/cars) and keep that margin for emergencies. Emergency, by definition, doesn't warn you before hand so you have to take into account the time to ramp up the braking power, and weight transfer. Interessingly Fortnine did a vide oabout ABS on motorcycle, and how slamming the brakes with ABS does get longer braking distance not only because of the wheels locking up, but because also because weight transfer takes time to settle. its not only about weight, but suspension tuning On a track, you want to have fade resistant brakes and use close to 100%, but you can anticipate and setup the weight transfer before slamming the brakes. here weight naes a difference in the long run because after dozens of high speed braking, the heavier car is way more likely to overheat the brakes

@@kennwin7 Huh? Rear brake bias doesn't have any effect on how much weight goes to the front, that's down to the suspension and physics. Good brake bias means both ends of the car achieve their best braking performance.

@@pauldzim it affects the pitch of the weight transfer to the front in transient state. Of course the primary factor is CG and stiffness of the chassis itself and the road banking & incline itself. What I said wasn’t wrong. It’s more complicated than just “haha thing is heavy”. In racing it’s down to the small things

@@pauldzim You're telling me braking has nothing to do with weight transfer? What a stubborn guy. Braking performance is optimized on both ends of the car BECAUSE good brake bias allows you to evenly distribute load across all 4 tires. The friction formula is F = mu*N where Mu is the coefficient of friction (Static/Friction) from the road surface and N is the normal load. The normal load is derived from weight transfer front/rear (pitch).

The only car I ever personally saw get sideways, slap a curb, and destroy a bunch of expensive parts at cars & coffee was a mustang. It made my whole year.

Bad handling car attracts bad drivers

Oof 💀

carbon ceramic brakes should in theory work better at high temperatures, and be less effective in comparison when they are colder - they are installed primarily to prevent fade rather than improve maximum performance (as that is always fundamentally limited by the tyres).

Do you know what the Bosch motorsports ABS system uses? I don't, but I know thats what people use to find seconds per lap in their track car, just in braking zones alone

@@mm6705 Maybe it is better tuned for racing tyres. More agressive. But as far as I know, it is still conventional on/off ABS. The Brembo system works totally different

@@OrionFH I figured it wasn't published info...but just looked it up, bosch fully monitors 6 axis vehicle forces, individual wheel speed, and controls hydraulic to maximize traction...so seems like it brembo who is trying to break into that performance market?

Interesting, the part with the vehicle forces makes sense. I don‘t think anybody else does that. Brembo might enter the market through a racing application like that. Their end goal is an e-brake for the road, which would make it possible to remove the hydraulics completely (cost savings) Will be difficult though, hydraulics are damn simple and guarantee safe braking. With their e-brake, that will have to be demonstrated

@@mm6705 Just about every racing motorcycle uses Brembo brakes, they are also used in F1.

thanks, was wondering what the fuss :) that makes sense now

Well, I guess we uncultured swine will have to console ourselves with the fact that for over 50 years, we're still the only country to have put people on the moon. We're such backwards idiots, right?

Downforce AND thrust, since they're tilted backwards!

​@@specialopsdavehe needs to do a video breaking down the correct pipe angle between down force and trust.

I don't have experience activating ABS in many vehicles but you should be able to feel it clearly through the pedal. My body feels a fairly constant acceleration but my foot very clearly feels every pulse of my car's ABS system, it's really cool to feel. I would think you can feel the abs working in everything not using brake by wire (meaning not in most EVs, anything with automatic braking, adaptive cruise control, or torque vectoring via brakes)

Downforce of the car changes when decelerating. That will probably change the balance too. I’m sure there are more factors that will play a role.

The "weight transfer" doesn't take more or less time based on the factor of vehicle weight. In fact, the term "weight transfer" can be considered a misnomer. The nose dive you feel might take more time to settle, depending on the spring rates and damper settings. But the nose dive is not the weight transfer, it's just a side effect OF the weight transfer. What we call weight transfer is actually just the force vectors changing direction, and this happens instantly with, concurrently with, and proportionately to the change in braking force between the tire and the road surface. It is felt at the contact patches immediately, whether the spring has compressed yet or not.

@@johnhunter7244 Just like there are different engines with different behaviors, so too are there different ABS systems with different behaviors. My 2006 Exige exhibits absolutely zero perceivable pulsing through the brake pedal. It does not have any of the systems you mentioned. It will consistently out-brake my GT3RS w/ the Porsche carbon ceramic rotors. Not by a huge margin, but it will. I don't know whether Lotus designed the ABS system themselves, or if they just bought it from some third party manufacturer, but it is fantastic. On track, I pretty much just full stomp the pedal and let the ABS work its magic every single braking zone. The high horsepower cars put a couple car lengths on me down a straight, and I make up the deficit in the braking zone practically every time. Well, at least into the corners with substantial braking required...it doesn't hold true in situations where the brakes only need a brief tap.

@@xtnuser5338 interesting. A lotus exige is certainly a good example, I know it has absolutely none of those systems. My car I'm feeling it on is a 2010 Hyundai Genesis coupe 2.0t track (includes brembo brakes). AFAIK the braking system is stock except for pads.

Hopefully, it will change the publics perspective on the mustang

​@chirst5874 It shouldn't as it is a very limited production car that the public will never be able to own

He is talking about the Dark Horse, not the GTD model

@@betrayedpredator8826 that's what halo cars are meant to do

I'm pretty sure the regeneration/braking of electric motors is usually way more limited than the acceleration

I bet it produces so much heat that it is pointless for longevity

It would be too hard on the batteries to try and charge them that quickly.

Very good and often overlooked point when it comes to performance tests. Would be nice if we were more thorough with these performance tests and results. But that takes time, effort, and resources.

Yeah and they still call it 0-60 🤡

There is nothing disingenuous about this. They are trying to achieve consistency across timing modes. At the drag strip your staging lights are 1 ft apart so after the light goes green the clock doesn't start running till you break the last staging light.

about 4 blocks worth of cars n coffee burnout's!

@@michaelfried3123 yah track tires

​@@michaelfried3123That's bold assuming it can go 4 blocks without crashing.

In road conditions, no one performs emergency braking several times in quick succession.

@@tolepbut in true terms of ultimate braking performance multiple stops would be a true test.

@@tolep That just means you're not pushing the gas pedal hard enough

And a new set of tires because you know those things are incredibly soft. This car is 500lbs heavier than the gt2rs. To get this kind of stopping distance, they're definitely making a compromise somewhere.

Those tires are like bugatti tires but for stopping.

@@tortol4847 indeed, physics will always be physics

@@tortol4847Yep, cheater tires win magazine tests, but last 5 minutes in the real world.

$2,000?? More like $20,000.

I imagine this would only be for setting stopping records, right? This wouldn't take into account changing environments, tire performance etc. would it?

@@arog7493 Right. It's the ABS feedback that's causing the oscillation. Run the "course" a few times with the ABS active. Then replace the ABS with a forcing function algorithm that stays just under the point of switching from static friction to dynamic friction...without ever leaving static.

actually ABS dont allow (or at least tries to avoid) locking of the wheels. It releases pressure before wheel locks up. Chatter noise caused by the valves in the ABS hydraulic block, vibration on the pdeal is the pressure modulation.

@@gaborb I'll stand corrected if you can tell me how the ABS knows it's gotten as much static friction as it can without sensing dynamic friction.

@@toddmarshall7573 during straight line braking the maximum force can be achieved at around 10-15% slip depending mostly on tyre compound. So abs can use this as target. in reality it's way more complicated but hopefully this is enough for understanding that locking is not necessary.

LOL, no. an unloaded semi likely has way too much weight on the front tires but that is a function of the application design.

Most likely because the tires are designed to deal with the full load. Rubber compounds and constructions need to be extremely hard to deal with that weight. So the tires don't really work without the weight forcing them into the ground.

@@dimitrimariutto Would you like me to quote the DOT manual for A-Class CDL training or would you like to google why you're wrong?

@thquake8574 yes, the CDL does state that loaded trucks stop in less distance but as i said, it is a function of application design. The spring rate on tractors and trailers is set for the maximum weight it can carry and the high spring rate likely causes the suspension to bounce the tires when unloaded, thus removing traction during the braking phase. On dry, smooth pavement, the unloaded trailer should stop in less distance; in other situations, the loaded trailer would stop better. But with improvements in ABS and braking systems of late, I suspect unloaded trailers stop in less distance than loaded ones in most cases. just found an internet article that references the CDL: Section 6.1.3 Brake Early Control your speed whether fully loaded or empty. Large combination vehicles take longer to stop when they are empty than when they are fully loaded. When lightly loaded, the very stiff suspension springs and strong brakes give poor traction and make it very easy to lock up the wheels. Your trailer can swing out and strike other vehicles. Your tractor can jackknife very quickly. You also must be very careful about driving "bobtail" tractors (tractors without semitrailers). Tests have shown that bobtails can be very hard to stop smoothly. It takes them longer to stop than a tractor-semitrailer loaded to maximum gross weight. In any combination rig, allow lots of following distance and look far ahead, so you can brake early. Don't be caught by surprise and have to make a "panic" stop.

Well, uh, yeah that’s exactly what a numbers/stats test is. It’s not like they quantify how many times it takes to optimize 0-60 or chassis behavior under max breaking into a turn…

I’m sure plenty of places will track test this car and provide lap times.

Boggles

I think it is different. The issue that people have with 0 - 60 mph without rollout is that it is not actually 0-60 but nonzero-60. Whereas both of these 60-0 measurements are true 60-0. Just with the difference that one assumes you can immediately apply maximum braking force (by going above 60 mph and measure only the part below 60 mph) and the other incorporates the real pressing of the pedal exactly at 60 mph, which takes some amount of time. Both are relevant for different things as Jason pointed out in the video and you can get both in real life. If you brake from above 60 mph, you will get the motortrend number for the 60-0 braking distance. If you start braking exactly at 60 mph, you get the CaD number. Simple as that.