Watch this important discussion on homosexuality and the church hosted by Janet Parshall with Dr. Brown, ex-gay Anne Paulk, and pro-gay Christian leaders Justin Lee and Brandan Robertson.
Excellent moderator! Ms. Parshall is one smart lady. She was so quick to expose the presuppositions brought by the two gentleman. They seemed to dance around the obvious interpretation of the text and seems like their feelings override the biblical commands. I know that sounds harsh but that's what they did. I do agree that the Church should love the LGBT. lDr. Brown on the other hand was powerfully clear and presented truth which clears any mental fog.
+Carmen Villegas I completely agree with Dr. Brown. But it was jarring how aggressive she was. It was like watching a "debate" on MSNBC with the liberal host teaming up with the liberal side double-teaming the conservative guy. Even her volume was irritating. I appreciate how sharp she was, but as a host I wish she would have enabled her guests to interact more with each other.
Thank you Dr. Brown for this post. Your wisdom is truly rooted in the very word of God. We need more of you in this time of confusion, not only in society but also amongst Christians.
Dr.Brown wrote an article called “Why Christians shouldn’t smoke pot”. When I read this article I was a drug user at the time, and after reading his article I quit all drugs the next day. I have been sober ever since. God bless this man.
@@shawnj.o.9887 A horrible moderator? Or horrible person? And why? It's kinda pointless to just say something so unclear and not even explain why? It's just shouting into the void. You could just yell it into your pillow or write it in your journal.
I love to listen to Dr Brown, not because of the wise words and intelligent arguments he utters but because I hear the Holy Spirit through him... Pure clarity that convicts when you have the true love of God in your heart. At the same time my heart goes to the LGBT people who perceive the truths but are somehow stuck in the middle between a hypocritical church and the trend and pressure of society. May God help and bless them in their struggle, one and one! Love.
The two gay males were driving me crazy. Not because they're gay. Because they would NOT COMMIT to a stance!! They flip flopped more than a fish out of water. They either had their convictions and would not share them, or when pushed for their stance, they would say "weeeellll..." and not commit to one. Drove me crazy. Dr Brown was great, he was firm, resolute, and spot on. I would respect the other guys more if they took a stand for what they believed, and quit mincing words and terms.
Sig Guy True , SOooooooooo very irritating. Why bother joining a discussion or debate , if you won't make a firm stance . it becomes a one way conversation
mathew palmer the issue here I think that they couldn't make a firm stance is that they were basically dealing with the bible and they couldn't get around what the bible actually says on the topic, now if the bible is thrown out of the conversation, than it would be more secularism, they could actually make a stand, for instance, saying, well, homosexuals do what they want and is no one else business
That is true, Robert. I think the part that irritated me the most was the guy on the end who told Dr Brown that his stance and views were "evolving." (AKA, I don't have a clue exactly what I believe) I really don't mind if these guys have a different view/stance, but if you're going to agree to a conversation/debate with Dr Brown, you'd better have something to stand on, not just your "evolving" viewpoints.
Sig Guy I actually appreciate the fact that they are sincere in their not taking stances. If they are sincere about the truth and convinced that the Spirit will lead them to the truth, then they will embrace a view.
Sig Guy It is easy to understand that their "flux" in views is affected by their sexual orientation. If you are struggling with that, then you will be struggling with your views. Belief/theology comes before behaviour.
My question is are they willing to call it sin? If a married man is attracted to a woman who is not his wife that is clearly sinful and he should flee from those feelings and not give Satan a foothold. This is the same for those attracted to the same sex. Whether straight or gay, we're all held to the same moral standards God has set in place. 1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
But don't you think that would be partial? If I'm a man who is only attracted to men, and have been that way since puberty, by your standards only straight people can possibly have a non-sinful sexual feeling (toward their spouse). Marriage is discussed throughout scripture, especially by Paul, as being the answer to all human's proclivity toward sexual sin, if it's toward the person you commit your life to and take full responsibility for, then it is not sinful. However, even Paul's words assume and presuppose that men are attracted to women, and that a satisfactory and good outlet for sexuality is toward your spouse. Gay people, who have the same proclivity toward promiscuity and impulsive gratification, do not have any outlet for that sexuality. This is because the opposite sex does not trigger the physiological responses (ex: a man's erection) which would even enable someone to identify sexual feelings at all. Sexuality is NEVER experienced in the abstract, it's only felt when in the presence of someone who is attractive. So yes, it seems fair to say "everyone is held to the same standards", but is it just? In one case, sexual desire is allowed but just through the right outlet, that makes it very fair to say all other types of sexual gratification is wrong. But in the case of a gay person, the exact same sexual drive is supposed to be unanimously avoided and no sexual contact of any type can be expressed. So I would ask you: do you believe biblical celibacy is strictly a vocation, or can it be coerced? If it can be coerced, is that the right thing to do?
I have to disagree that attractions are sinful in and of themselves, acting on those attractions would be sinful. Like Ann said, even after she got saved and turned from the gay lifestyle that it was great for about 6 months then she started having those attractions all over again. We all have thoughts that tempt us, it depends on what we do with those thoughts.
AS a former homosexual ...and having been on both Dr. browns radio show and Janet Parshalls show , this was a great debate...lots of Godly knowledge given by janet and micheal
+Trace McNutt Former homosexual? I'll pray for you to accept who you really are and accept the way god made you. Both you and I know that you cannot change your sexual orientation. Stop perpetrating a lie to yourself and others. It's your one and only life, just be happy and live your life in truth.
Herein lies (some of) the problem(s) or a problem of some Christians coming down upon Christians who take the stronger stance (preferably via H>S> conviction) against Homosexuality.....and....preach the loving/welcoming/sympathy aspects of Christian doctrine only, as discussed here in this video AND revealed by & w/in comments, as seen here in youtube now. "Confusion." (per "imagination" or cognitive dissonance) Which leads to confrontation(s). Which usually leads to separation(s) &/or disunity via egotistic hostile argumentation by one or more parties. Yet, what needs to be expanded upon and become the "line-in-the-sand" is Homosexual ACTIVISM. Dr Brown makes mention of it, but the panel continued onwards w/out fully exploring the development of its harmful, dangerous portends thus far seen in the evolutionary trends seen in our lifetime, as well historically seen in society. Want to see what an "Activist" say/does? Look at Kemit's comment here. He has the audacity to think & speak negatively FOR Trace McNutt, who started this thread with an admission on his part, and with an appreciation of this videos panel and their discussion. I would guess Kemit to be an atheist but if a christian then, look at his true thoughts & behavior. What's the difference i'd ask between an atheist & a christian if putting out tripe like this???
@@kargs5krun Most "ex gays" are usually bisexual in reality. So it perpetuates a false and unrealistic hopes for those who are not bisexual and are homosexual.
I didn't like how rude the lady conducting was toward the guy representing the lgbt christian community. She cut him off mid sentence 2-3 times, would not allow him to finish and she spoke to him in a condescending tone when she said, "look at you over there, taking notes as if this were a race for the white house", as she laughed. She's not a very kind hearted lady. She pretends to be professional on the outside but I definitely sensed some bias and rudeness on her behalf.
3D Editor I totally heard that comment about taking notes in the other way - I thought it was a light-hearted and complimentary joke to include him in. Janet has a brusque style, but I don't think there was rudeness toward them.
Daniel Morgan Yeah what ever dude, pull your head out of the sand! She didn't cut off anyone else and didn't let them finish mid sentence like she did with that guy. It wasn't just about her snarky comment alone, if you read what i mentioned from observing the entire dialogue. She was only picking on him because she knew right away that she wasn't going to allow him much room to speak and share his views, because of her bias nature.
3D Editor To each his own. I was just stating my opinion of how I observed the tone of it, but if you have to insult me for it, I guess it makes your point moot since you're as disrespectful as you claim she is.
Daniel Morgan If you think someone saying "pull your head out of the sand" is insulting, when that is exactly what you need to do in order to see or hear what is really going on, then you need to add some layers to your skin, because you're taking it too personal.
3D Editor I actually disagree with Janet, but I’ll defend her cutting them off. They continued to avoid her questions and revert to empathetical appeals. Condescending, maybe and that’s not okay. But her interrupting was completely necessary
This is my personal testimony and I am sure there will be a ton of backlash, but maybe this will help others. If you are a Christian, I ask you to walk one mile with me. I have recently come to Jesus and it's simply incredible. It has been like winning the best lottery ever. I feel the Holy Spirit and it has helped me tremendously in life. In fact, it has allowed me to give up hard addictions - tobacco, marijuana and alcohol. Also my lust for porn. Overnight! How incredible is that. I am constantly in awe of Jesus and the the Holy Spirit and the real positive impact it has had on my life. It has also helped me come to veganism as there are dozens of verses telling us not to eat meat and blood and to give mercy - after all I deeply believe that the Creator is the only one able to take away life (side bonus - I am so much healthier now.) With that being said, I should tell you now that I am gay, and I have never ever had any sexual desire for women. Also my addictions have vanished but still I yearn to have a companion and it still isn't for a woman. First God would have to give me that desire. Like I said, I have no lust for porn or to use hook up sex apps like "Tinder" but still it would be great to find another guy that is committed to the words of Christ. However, most gays are told their whole life that they are going to hell and are pushed out of the church, naturally turning their backs on Jesus because of the hatred of humans. How terribly sad because also Gays start to lead a very lustful life as they cannot form a healthy relationship supported by community and family. For me the most important part of being a Christian is following Jesus's words. Jesus said nothing about being gay, but he did talk specifically about adultery. Jesus also said that there are some that shouldn't marry. (Mathew 19:1-12) The word Eunuch in ancient Greek could mean castrated but more importantly is just meant anyone that couldn't sexually perform with a woman. That would be me. However, My father's adultery really destroyed my family. It has had a deep horrible impact on my beautiful mother, and my brother and I. He must have learned it from my grandfather who evidently did the same to my poor grandmother. Now this was in the South of the USA in a Baptist church and was my grandfather driven from out of the church? No. If he were gay, he would have been dragged out. I now live in Warsaw, Poland and there are more whore houses in this city than churches, and you never hear the Catholic church coming down hard against adulterers, still the worst thing here are "faggots" or in Polish the word "Pedał" is used which comes from the word pedophile. Men here boast of their infidelity with other women. I see mothers and children suffering so much like I did, and why isn't adulterer the worst thing to be called? It's so sad because it really can destroy lives. Being gay doesn't have the same negative impact on the family as infidelity does. It seems to me that homosexuality is a good scapegoat and deflection from the true words of Christ and his few commandments. Also I turned away from the church as a kid cause I could see all the racism in my family and Baptist church, I mean how can someone love Jesus and hate Black people? The cruelest slave owners in the South were the most religious and would cherry pick the bible to justify satan's filth. I thought I am more ethical than all these so-called Christians. It's a good thing that Jesus left the 99 sheep to come find me in my adult life. He is so loving and gracious. I am so deeply thankful. There are only 6 verses out of the 30,000+ verses of the bible that can be used as proof we shouldn't be gay. Three of which are found in the old testament in Leviticus (Have you ever read the hundreds of other things that are abominations? According to the old law - the yoke of slavery, we should sacrifice an ox, or a sheep or some doves for almost everything. And as far as I am concerned we shouldn't sacrifice animals as Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins.) Jesus brought the new wine that cannot be kept in old wine skins - which was Jewish Law that was impossible to fulfill. Jesus's yoke is easy and his burden is light. The passage from Paul in 1 Corinthians is really ambiguous if you look at the Ancient Greek used. In fact the first King James Bible of 1611 had no such word homosexuality. The word appeared for the first time in an English Bible in 1946. The ancient Greek words arsenokoitai and malakos used by Paul are poorly translated. I encourage each of you to do your own research before judging. So I keep telling myself that I will keep reading the words of Jesus (In my Bible it's easy cause they are all in red). Jesus when asked what is the most important laws to keep said in Mark 12:29 “The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.” I truly believe if you follow Jesus's words alone and be good and do as he says, that through him you will get into Heaven. Jesus was all knowing, surely he would have said something more stern himself if he knew millions of potential souls were going to Hell. I think he would have given more advice for us. Jesus helped take away my addictions and I repented deeply for everything, but I still have no sexual/romantic desire for women. Wouldn't the Holy Spirit and Jesus strip me of that as well if it were a horrible sin like he has done with the vices in my life? For now I am celibate and will remain so unless I find a guy who also puts Jesus first in his life. If I don't find him then I guess I will stay celibate, I leave it into the Creator's hands. If he finds me a loving Christ filled soul though, I would take it. I'll keep praying and doing his word so I can build my house on his rock. I am confident that if being gay is a true sin then I will be stripped of it, I am thirsty to get into the Kingdom of Heaven and Jesus wouldn't let me stay here, he will get me up there whatever it takes. Hope this helps. May all humans find Jesus and experience His love, nothing has felt anything better in my life. We are living in very dark times, go out and be good to one another. Your mirror in Christ. Much Love.
Lige Pendergrat, one of the brave, righteous Christians in this thread needs to respond to your post. It's a very strong testimony, and demands an answer.
@@broco6608 I don't think homossexuality is a sin as gluttony, because people are cured by God of their gluttony, but I have never seem anyone who stopped being gay, not cause He cant, but It seems because He doesn't want, maybe cause It's not something that is needed to be changed.
I absolutely loved it when Dr. Brown turned with that tender pastoral admonishment to the guy sitting on his left. Such good counsel! Pray he comes to Christ.
Someone needs to tell that young man that it was *not* the Church (sheep aka wheat) that was involved in s.l.a.v.e.r.y. but the W. of Babylon (wolves in sheep's clothing aka tares). He insulted the Bride of Christ.
Bottom line, the two younger men are looking for ways to make their sin palatable or morally efficient for what they want their lives to be. They have one false idol... themselves. Choose this day whom shall you serve. The church needs to find compassion, but not relinquish any truth.
@@broco6608 Correction. You state what a translation of the bible says through the interpretation you choose to apply to it. And use that as a cover to expound awful views of others. hy·poc·ri·sy /həˈpäkrəsē/ noun noun: hypocrisy; plural noun: hypocrisies the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform;
@@broco6608 Not at all. But you cant even seem to agree with yourself! You keep speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You say you are supposed to judge, while the bible says to not judge, then you re-define judgment to make it seem like you are not judging when you just said it is what you are supposed to do. As though that makes it alright. "I have nothing against gays" While also basically saying "Just don't be gay". "i was not trying to condemn the gays" while also saying "their thought crimes will cause them to stumble". "I accept the dictionary definition" while saying "Here is the biblical definition I use". Enough with the song and dance. Putting lipstick on a pig does not hide the fact its a pig... Accepting them for who they are seems much easier than these mental gymnastics you keep playing. Time to accept within yourself that there is another way to see it.
Excellent usage of the moderator to use her discretion when the panelists fail to answer the questions. Cuts down on fluff time and keeps the conversation productive.
There is literally no way the bible can be interpreted to say homosexuality is ok. If you want to make a god in your own image you can, knowing this: That god will not save your soul.
it's the other way around. the bible never says it's wrong. misrepresenting him as objecting to two people having a loving relationship arbitrarily because of who they're attracted to has pushed many away from the gospel.
@@MusicalRaichu The truth is unchanging regardless of human lusts and desires. The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit. It does not bend or warp to mans sin or fleshly faults or failings. It does not align itself with man or mans thinking. We either align ourselves with it or we are not right with God.
@@mysticalglowtv1796 absolutely right! but what does that have to do with what i said? i'm talking about the popular misconception that "the bible condemns homasecsuality" and all the harm and evil that this insidious belief has caused (some of which is mentioned in the video).
@@mysticalglowtv1796 There seems to be some confusion here about terminology. homasecsuality is a trait some people have, just like some are left-handed or have red hair. It makes no sense to condemn having red hair. even if you dye it, it will sill grow back red. Secondly, secsual orientation was not understood in Bible times and there is no reference to it that I can see. there are references to some behaviour that was legitimately wrong for other reasons, but no mention of people's innate attraction. Thirdly, lev 18 contains a prohibition on a specific practice, a man doing with it a man in the same way he would do it with a woman. if it was a blanket ban, it would say "men don't do it with men, women don't do it with women". the fact that we don't see this indicates there was nothing wrong with it. it's only ainal penatration that is prohibited. it was seen as a male taking a female role and violated gender norms. hope this clarifies it for you.
On top of the consistently SOUND DOCTRINE provided by Dr. Brown, this Moderator was excellent! Overall great civil dialogue that should show us all how convoluted this once simple stance has become. Praying for our country.
Julian Harris loved the moderator too, usually is some liberal, that throw reason and logic out the window, and go for popular creed, which is based on relativism.
Why are the "men lying with men" verses in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and New Testament. Understanding how sexuality and inhospitable behavior manifested itself in the nations and peoples covered by the anthology of stories in the Bible would mean we need to stop condemning homosexuals. And by looking in the mirror we'd see our hypocritical selves. My summary will show how homosexual and homosexuality, the person and the act, are not necessarily the same. For demonstrating it, context is necessary, something egregiously missing in traditional Biblical interpretation and translation. More than a few women in antiquity avoided sexual relations. Some died when pregnant and numerous others while giving birth or shortly thereafter. (context) Numerous babies died in-utero or during or shortly after being born. And many children died before puberty. (context) Unlike today with advances in medicine and nutrition, females and babies lives then were precarious. Women thought hard before engaging sexually. (context) The Ancient Near East, the Roman World and Greece, areas in which Biblical stories take place, were interesting places for many reasons, especially sexually. Individuals were having sexual relations with the opposite sex and their genders in many instances for reasons in addition to pleasure. Because of cults, the cult of temple prostitution, for example, for ceremonial reasons, for men vanquished by war or violence, for dominance, for the acceptance of pederasty (boy-man love), etc., heterosexual folk were having sexual relations (anal sex) with their own genders, They were heterosexuals engaging in acts of homosexuality/anal intercourse. Those Biblical scriptures are not about homosexuals and their behavior. An ax murder is not about the ax. (context) While many married women and others weren't "giving it up" (so to state), there were a few women engaged in prostitution and/or orgies. Rape played a prominent role as well. (context) God and the prophets understood if heterosexuals engaged in homosexuality, the human population, nations and cultures would be decimated. (context) Consider homosexuality in men's prisons. The overwhelming majority of those engaging in sexual relations with their genders are heterosexual. I understand many would say those men are really homosexual, but I don't think so. Those men engage in same-sex relations for pleasure, dominance and for the absence of women. But their minds, bodies and souls are still primarily oriented to females. They remain heterosexual. Do you understand that homosexual and homosexuality in this (prison) context is a distinction with a difference? (context) To understand the "men lying with men" (MLWM) scriptures folk have to do more than reflect on words in translation. It's as important to know something about the histories, traditions, legal systems, cultures, ancient languages (and problems of transcription and translation), etc., of the places in which Biblical stories take place. You won't otherwise get the context. Why were some of those MLWM verses added to the King James* Bible/KJB (and some lesser ones) in the 1940s? Go do some work, folks. Find out the roles played by hysteria, homosexuality circumcision, masturbation and (Kellogg's and Post) breakfast cereals and graham crackers (not White-oriented Black folks!). (*His Magnificence was a notorious homosexual; Sir Walter Raleigh in letters often referred to him as "Queen James.") Consider the (loaded) term "abomination": All of us are "abominations unto the Lord," at least according to the Bible. ABOMINATION" is a woefully inaccurate translation of the original Hebrew terms "toevah" and "sheketz," words used to describe some failing (moral or ethical), cult behavior, or idolatry practiced by other peoples; and these are something to be avoided by the Ancient Israelites, as they are "taboo" (toevah/shekketz). The Old English word "abomination" is a corruption. According to the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), wearing certain clothing, eating particular shell-fish and meat, lying, remarriage, not keeping kosher, fornication, adultery, misbehaving children, lewd sexuality in a cultic fashion, male homosexuality, worshiping idols and false gods, practicing witchcraft, etc., are all considered toevah (taboo) / sheketz. Why are we singling out one class of people, homosexual human beings, as the personification of the term? (context) Show less
i think all the participants agree. the problem is that there is confusion as to why on earth two people loving who they're attracted to and not hurting anyone would be sin in the first place.
@@todd1936 That's the frustrating thing about this video. Three of the participants also have that impression, yet we now know that that view has been well and truly discredited. I know Baldock and Oxford's work hadn't been done then, but after books written by Vines, Lee himself, Edser (in Australia) and I think Baldock's first book had been out then, they should have realized even back then that the issue was still undecided. See how accommodating Lee was, but Brown and the two ladies were disgustingly dogmatic. The moderator shocked me by how callous she was. As a moderator her role should have been to be neutral, let alone not care about people's suffering.
@@SaltyWatermelon436 If by "God has spoken" you mean what's written in the Bible, then I disagree. The very concept of "homosecsuality" didn't even exist when the Bible was written. It's an artificial category created around a century ago. But the Bible very clearly addresses the fundamental human psychological needs for companionship, mutual support and familial relationship in Genesis 2 and it unmistakeably says "it is not good for man to be alone". The idea of asceticism including forbidding people from marrying is also said to be wrong. That's God's standard. On the other hand, there is no categorical statement that says two men or two women mustn't have secs or shouldn't get married. That's a doctrine people invented based on reading things into the Bible. Rather, this human invention has caused horrific harm including but not limited to loss of faith, damaged relationships and death. It is verifiably depraived and should have been rejected decades ago. The fact that the doctrine is unstable and has mutated over time should have been a red flag that we ignored for far too long. The trouble is that now that we've invented this theology (I suspect what you mean by "consistently and repeatedly on the subject"), it's very hard to ditch. There's also the loss of face involved in admitting we were wrong and needing to apologise that gets in the way. Change is happening but it's very slow. There's a chance Oxford's book might make a difference and catalyse change a bit more quickly, but who knows when it will even be published.
@@SaltyWatermelon436 Responding over comments like this is a difficult way to have this conversation. I think we agree on a lot of things. But the view that you describe has only been in existence for a few decades. Please consider the matter from a historical point of view. The construction of the category of "homosecsual" and the usage of the word in the Bible by mistake led the protestant church away from the traditional Christian view, viz that all non-reproductiv acts are wrong. Thus two men in bed is traditionally considered wrong for the same reason a husband and wife doing it with their mouths or using contrasepshon is wrong. I think protestants rightly abandoned this idea. But more recently the concept of "homosecsuality" was invented and considered a disorder, so no one questioned that it was wrong. When the H word started appearing in the Bible, people just accepted it as a reference to people giving in to disordered behaviour. When scientific research eventually revealed that it was a harmless natural variation and that two men or two women could live perfectly normal lives, society started changing in views. Unfortunately, by that time the use of the H word in the Bible made the belief that it was sinful entrenched in people's minds. However, the church needed to justify its position and find reason for something harmless to actually be wrong. So late last century, they invented the theology you describe. Gen 2 really only explains why people get married but contains no statement to suggest two men or two women should not. But since it only explicitly describes a man and a woman, they popularized the idea that doing anything different is a sin. This is a recent doctrine. I was around when it started becoming popular. I never heard before the late 80s. As a result, they said attraction to the same secs is a sin people should repent of. As we now know, it's impossible to change one's orientation, so people failed to repent. Many were hurt and even lost their lives in the attempt to change. In response to this dreadful failure, many changed their doctrine and started saying the attraction is only a temptation, not a sin, so if you can't change, stay single. But even this has proved damaging. As a result, many are finally accepting the scientific consensus that it's a harmless natural variation, but since they've been led to believe that God says no, the right option, they say, is to remain single. This is yet another view, one that even contradicts the scripture that says "it is not good". So you see, the persistent failure of this teaching has led to its instability. It's not a problem with God's word. The problem lies in how it has been misinterpreted and misapplied.
It's like calling someone a Christian fornicator. A Christian will not fornicate as a lifestyle! A Christian will not accept sin as part of his lifetsyle.
This isn’t true. You can’t say a Christian “will never” do something, without basing their salvation upon the results of their works. I myself am an example. I’ve fallen into some bad sins as a believer, as well as many others I know. Do you not believe backslidden Christians exist?
That was in 2015, today Brandan Robertson is calling Jesus a racist. Tomorrow Brandan will call himself the new God. How sin will take us lower each step of the way.
Dr Brown explains his position very well. All the panelists are good presenters. This is a great video. I wish the host/moderator had introduced herself.
OMG -- this was so excellent!!!! God bless everyone on the panel and all those who heard this powerful debate (of sorts). Praying for ALL people struggling with sin period!!
Celibacy seems like a temporary fix to me. If God is great and powerfully enough to save us, created all things from nothing, is He not just as great and powerful enough to change our sexual attractions? You gotta allow your faith to grow in Him and be able to see past your situation whatever it may be. We so limit God by our emotions and feeling that we blind ourselves to limitless potential of a God who is desperately in love with us and only wants the best for us. Never settle, dream big.
mleavel10 Amen. "Seeing past your situation"... Thank you for saying those wise words. I'm not struggling with "that", but, in general, I was saying to myself, and to God, the other day that I need to increase my faith. You really helped bring my walk with God into perspective. God bless you. 🙂
mleavel10 ideally to us, but God may have a bigger plan in celibacy for us; and as Paul said, we will focus all on God then rather than needing to take time for our family :)
This is a conversation that is very much needed, it wasn't intended to be a debate but a dialogue of different view points. If we can't get it right on this issue in the church, how can we even think we can minister to society? I respect Justin Lee and Brandan Roberts for at least participating in this dialogue. They are completely accurate in saying the church response has been inadequate. I so appreciate Dr. Brown and Anne Paulk for humbly speaking the truth in love. Janet Parshall does an excellent job in facilitating this whole discussion.
The moderator is only interested in her opinion and Dr. Browns. What was the point of inviting the others? Her agenda and “Christian love” is not helping the Kingdom grow!
Brandon is just wrong. He's a wolf in sheep clothing. The very definition of someone who can study a book and get a piece of paper to say they studied it but not truly understand it.
Marriage is not something that must invoke the Church to consummate- it is the carnal (fleshly) union of a man and woman; This is why the apostle Paul said: "Or do you not know that the one being joined to the prostitute is one body? For it says, "The two will become into one flesh."" The union of the two via the act of consummation is the beginning of the marriage. No church entity is required.
I feel like Dr. Brown always shuts down this argument with only one response. He makes it extremely plain by letting the bible answer the questions directly. Praise the Lord.
Nathalie Nelson all sin is sin, but lemme say(partly out of exhaustion 😂😂and experience) The problem is not that folk don’t have a God-conscience about same sex attraction/homosexuality. The problem is..... Folk don’t want a Final Moral Authority - it disrupts “me”. There is hope tho.....for those who want to be set free; for those who know that following Christ requires denying self those pleasures of the flesh, no matter how sincere, strong or heartfelt one feels about being a “gay Christian” - the identities don’t match. You can be a believer who struggles with same-sex attraction truly desiring to be confined to Christ; but can one be a “gay Christian”? ....not for long. /Bklyn👑
Respect to Justin and Brandon in being able to share how they did. Must be intimidating to know your in discussion/ debate against DMB; well done young men, as you keep following Christ would love to hear your thoughts in a few years of this journey. DMB thank you, as always, your clear, scriptural and Spirit lead response inspires me to engage more lovingly proactive. I have enjoyed Justin and Brandon's feedback and sparked good thought, especially at 1:03:00 response! Thank you
Nice guys but sincerely wrong on this issue. Since this took place Brandan Robertson has become full false teacher. This is what happens when the Bible is not your authority on life issues.
Shawn I would contend that most gay-affirming Christians are not picking and choosing, but simply interpreting differently. There are plenty of Bible-believing affirmers, even if these two don’t represent the position well
@@cavs23rox There is ambiguity on certain doctrines such as rapture, tribulation etc. There is no ambiguity on sexual purity. God created men and women for one athother. Period. Gay affirming Christians are at least compromised Christians if they're even Christian at all. Jesus calls us to deny ourselves and pick up our cross not embrace our broken sexuality. (Both heterosexuals and homosexual)
Wow, that was fantastic. Thanks for posting this. I am impressed that we as believers can have a conversation without getting immediately fleshly, defensive and angry. I see it is possible to walk in truth, patience and love at the same time. It is possible and necessary to stand for righteousness and to not be hateful and hard towards people.
Dr. Brown was on point in this discussion and the words of wisdom given by Dr.Brown was cautionary for the young man, at 31:20 on the video. I know this video was done about eight years ago. Now, I've seen the young man is now openly gay pastor, leading so many in error with his anti-Biblical interpretations of scripture. He has been on major platforms against those, Dr. Brown, Dr. James White and Sean McDowell and still has not repented of his sins.
It's Brown, White and McDowell that need to repent. Their view has caused extensively documented harm to thousands if not millions of people. Here's a sample: Clark et al 1989: "Judaeo-Christianity has instead encouraged homofobia in society thereby fostering antigay oppression which dehumanizes gay individuals, undermines gay couplings, and exacerbates familial tensions between gay and nongay relatives." Schuck & Liddle 2001: "Reactions included shame, depression, and suisidal ideation" Rodriguez 2009: Christian doctrine causes "confusion, self-loathing, and despair" DeAngelis 2009: found that parental rejection had a drastically deleterious effect on secs minority youth, leading to greater mental health problems and harmful behaviour including attempted sue-side Subhi & Geelan 2011: found harmful effects of the conflict gay people experience between their faith and their xesuality, including damaged relationship with parents and attempted sue-side Sowe et al 2017: “the religious-based disapproval of homoxesuality may amount to more than a harmless expression of religious beliefs, instead operating as a distinct form of oppression with potential psychological consequences." 2002 study by Shidlo, 2002 study by Haldeman, a 2022 study by Forsyth, a 2018 study by Green, a 2021 review by Knitz all consistently found that attempts to get people to "repent" from their orientation harmful.
Wait… isn’t that guy far stage left the guy who said Jesus sinned through racial discrimination and was called to repentance by the superior wisdom of the Syrophenician woman? I think he had a bunch of TikTok videos like that.
The moderator seems very harsh and she comes across as a bully which isn’t good for our church. Dr. Brown should have led. He was knowledgeable and kindly in his tone/more compassionate
I thought she did really well. It's not bullying to expect an answer to the questions you ask and the young men were not answering questions. I think her responses were appropriate in holding them accountable. How else could a conversation continue if questions aren't getting answered? 🤔
@@robbinsnest6163 yes but she was terribly biased. a moderator should not be biased one way or the other but should facilitate the participants engaging one another respectfully and fairly. i think the participants did exceptionally well in spite of her, not because of her, even with someone as disagreeable as brown on the panel.
I’m 30 minutes in and neither of the younger guys have used any scripture. So if your not using scripture to prove your view your using man’s logic to justify it. Man’s logic says there is no God because there isn’t any proof nor does science prove God. This is man’s logic.
It seemed that some simple questions didn't get asked. Is homosexuality a sin? The answer is yes. The people who affirm particular sins have to also be the ones to claim the possibility of a lack of innerancy, which is exactly what these two gentlemen did. We must as followers of Christ, be willing to truthfully admit that we all have struggles and be willing to give them to Christ and TURN. I was a drug addict for 9 years, I was born again in prison. And when I was faced with the truth of God's Word I saw myself for what I was, a sinner in desperate need of a savior. But I have to be real, sin is sin. With the power of the Spirit of God we can overcome.
So, if someone is a homosexual, like Allan Chambers (last president of Exodus international, and ex-gay ministry) and many other in mixed orientation relationships, who affirm that heterosexual relationships are the type of relationships that God blesses, but they cannot deny their attraction to men, are they sinning even when they engage not in any practice? if homosexuality is a sin, then even when someone never acted on those feeling, they are still sinning. If the answer to that question is yes, then you are saying that people with this orientation have NO hope, because none can claim that the orientation goes away forever (Ask Alan)vIf you answer is no, then homosexuality is NOT a sin itself.
sophia jackson how do you mean? Because from a standpoint of human definition there has to be gay Christians, or put in a better way Christians who are gay or struggle with homosexuality. JESUS saves all, regardless of which sin they struggle with. There are Christians who struggle with adultery, Christians who struggle with kleptomania, drug using Christians. The difference is, like Dr. Brown said, adulterous or homosexual or etc is an adjective that A.) Doesn't define who you are B.) Will die through CHRIST in us. That us to say Gay Christians wont be Gay too long, Christ conquers all. Gay Christians exist as in Christians who struggle with homosexuality, so i would disagree if defining the term as such. However, in a spiritual sense, CHRIST washes all sin as if it weren't ever there. And in that sense, indeed there are no sinful Christians at all.
With love.... read Romans 7. Being made into a new creation is a transformative process, not instantaneous. Your position is the cause of much UNBIBLICAL shame and self-hatred in Christians who struggle with same sex attractions
You're supposed to look at culture through the lens of Scripture, not look at Scripture through the lens of culture, which is what the 2 gay-affirming guys do. But I feel bad for Justin Lee, the lady conducting the "debate" was very rude to him.
Even though I greatly appreciated the conversation, I can't help but notice that it slowly became an attack instead of a discussion, even though the speaker at the beginning of the talk stressed so clearly that it was to be a conversation, not an attack.
Justin stated on his first response that he was invited to discuss what the church could do to welcome the LBGTQ community. How much was that discussed? Where is the Fathers heart in the panelists and moderator?
@@charlottekirkman3830 We could compromise on the Word of God and become apostate. That would certainly welcome the "LGBTQAAIP+ Community" Former Same-Sex attracted person here btw. So good luck trying to emotionally manipulate me.
@@Vampyrekai no desire to manipulate you. That is obviously ineffective as this debate proved. You and I are not enemies. Father’s heart kept in the forefront will always be beneficial to the church and the Kingdom.
Been following Dr. Brown for years and I also listen to John MacArthur on a regular basis. MacArthur would never deny the salvation of Michael Brown and visa Versa. While MacArthur is a cessationist, it's a secondary issue.
Amazing Dr. Brown! You're a true gift to the church. Thank you for your long held and well thought out response to this issue. Even though I disagree with you on the topic of God's sovereignty in salvation, I love that we have so much more in common that we come together on. Grace and peace!
This entire panel is treating homosexuality as if it were an apple that God told a famished Eve to hold in her hand for one week without taking a single bite.
Jesus said if you do not deny yourself daily and do the will of God you are not worthy of being called a Christian. In other words, there are no "gay" Christians. Period. Jesus came to save us from our sin, not in our sin. If you cry out to God today for mercy you will find it. I myself and many others have been delivered from deep sexual immorality. I am living proof. Trust in Jesus today!
This conversation is so very needed and so key for the Church. These are very intelligent, mindful, and full of wisdom remarks and questions and rebuttals, that they are hitting a lot of the major points of both arguments of the side of the issue. The Hostess is a very smart hostess who is very keen on the questions, sub-questions, and that unspoken.
God bless you Dr Brown. There's no way I'd be able to sit in between those two flip-floppers (Justin Lee and Brandon Roberts); all while clearly and calmly articulating the truth of scripture. You're awesome.
I would also say, people who are heterosexual, in some ways, have a similar issue from the point of view that men and women are not supposed to indulge in sex before marriage. Despite this, I gather that most “single” Christians experience sexual unions between opposite and, occasionally, same sex individuals. This is, initially, where the problem lies, along with the failing of the Church, throughout, to stand up and be counted. What is the biblical attitude towards sex? Church? Together with an elderly parishioner, we felt it necessary to speak to a young, cohabiting couple about sex before marriage. The young man is learning and is trying to be obedient to God, but his long term girlfriend, who is not yet a believer, has a child by a previous partner and is unfamiliar with the gospel. It is very difficult to address this issue when the clergy are seemingly unwilling to deal with it at the pulpit. The Church needs to standup and be counted. ✝️
@@anniemc459 trouble is, these "moral" standards do harm, in reality they're immoral. young people see their bad fruit. when the church tries to stand for its traditions, people reject not only the church's harmful teaching, but the gospel as well.
This was not a debate nor a discussion. It was three against two ( and for that matter, two of whom could not and would not even take a stance for the other side). This was embarrassing. It is a sad day when "Dr." Brown and divorcee Paulk appear as the "experts." They have to debate inexperienced youth half their age because any mainstream, educated professional would chew them up and them out.
Ethan Waters Thanks for the very kind and gracious words. :) Seriously, my door has been open for years for public or private debate and dialogue on these very issues, and it's the so-called "mainstream, educated professionals" who, with rare exception, refuse to engage. Let the truth come to light. Also, what's your problem with the "Dr." title? What must one do in your eyes to earn a recognized doctoral degree? Just curious to know -- unless you're simply spewing hateful bias.
Ethan Waters, Blessings; the majority of people who are spreading erroneous, and heretical teachings ( the idea that it is okay to act on your same sex attraction(SSA) while being Christian) are young with respect to a handful of people. Dr. Brown is a lover of TRUTH first, and then his fellow man (and woman; no pun intended.). Listen to his testimonies of how he engages with homosexual people of all backgrounds. If you ask me, he is more than qualified due to the fact that he has had so many loving and righteous relationships with people of different backgrounds whom struggle include SSA.
If 100 percent of believers disagreed with God's breathed words, 100 percent of the believers would be wrong. Doctrines/teachings of God are not decided by a person's feelings, thinking, imagination, likes, or dislike! God's breathed words are crystal clear about this.
The description "pro-gay Christian leaders" says a lot. I do not see Justin or Brandon as "pro-gay" vs pro-Jesus Christ. Clearly they are pro-Jesus Christ or they would not be committing their lives to Him. They are Christians who study the Bible and practice compassion while loving God with their heart, soul, and MIND, as Jesus instructed us to do. Like EACH of us, we consider much of the message of Christ as it applies to our own life (and sinful nature). Jesus spoke in metaphor and parables so that His disciples would THINK about what He was actually saying, which requires questioning in order to KNOW Him. He did not come as an enforcer, he commanded we love one another, and not to judge. Only God knows our heart. Yet, here we are again, Christians boldly determining on camera who will, and who will not, inherit God's kingdom. John 3:15-17
Very productive conversation. It boiled down to: (1) How can a single christian (gay/or not) be fully satisfied in celibacy, and (2) How should we (parents firstly) minister/counsel children that find themselves SSA. These are two questions everyone should start thinking about now and implementing as soon as we've reached a decision. May LOVE and TRUTH (compassion for our gay family/friends, and an unflinching stance on prohibited gay sex) be our guidelines!
Because the church has got it wrong on theological and eschatological views, this can not be used to compromise the truth, sin is still sin, and no it can not be culturally interpreted, because many of our cultures are not in line with the word of GOD.
The two well meaning misled gentlemen do not seem to understand that the Word of God is absolute Truth which means that it's not just up for interpretational whims to fit the culture of that time.
@@wishusknight3009 I guess the point is; If you are going to interpret a piece of scripture in a completely new way that has never been considered for the past 2,000 years by anybody else, you better bring a mountain of evidence with you. Do you think it is coincidence that these new "interpretations" are springing up at the same time as that lifestyle has gained widespread social acceptance?
@@Wolfschanzeful Haven't new interpretations sprung up all through that 2000 years? You know, the ones that have 40000 different sects of christianity to show for it. Are those in the same category? How do you determine which ones are truth? And what "lifestyle" are you talking about? Also, the comment was about people who are gay. Not some lifestyle.
I think the problem is this: Justin asked what does the church do with a single Christian whether they be same sex attracted or not? He remarked that church will tell people like that to be celibate and then do nothing more for them........but this is the problem, he's pointing the finger of blame at someone else, some organisation as if to say, "you're responsible for me, do something!". Personel responsibility has been abdicated here. The church is not your keeper, this is an issue between an individual and God. You turn away from sexual immorality and leave the rest up to God. People, the church can't say, "great you've left homosexuality so now here's we what we have for you, here's the life we are going to give you".......People don't have that power, only God does. If you put your sexual immorality at the foot of the cross that means you're trusting God, even though you have no clue what will happen next. Thats what faith is. Plus this is all to make out that a person's relationship status is the most important thing in life. Its not, I know plenty of married people who wish they were single. The mistake so many singles make is to think that their relationship status is some sort of affliction, its not.
God loves you exactly where you are. However, he loves you so much he will not let you stay there. Transformational inclusion not affirmation inclusion. Brown.
