NT Wright & Tom Holland • How St Paul changed the world (Full Show) 

Mark Matthew Pace That is rather PRESUMPTUOUS of you, wouldn’t you agree, Slave? Presumption is evil because when one is PRESUMPTUOUS one makes a judgement about a matter even though one has insufficient facts to support one’s position.

@Mark Matthew Pace Mate you claims are just words with no evidence to support them. Read and take some history lesson..

Mark Matthew Pace I regret to inform you, Slave, that your response is INCORRECT. 👎 The CORRECT answer is “Yes, Master”. ✅ Bless You Always, TYPICAL Arrogant Westerner!

@Mark Matthew Pace so I can see that you think Jesus's story was made up and what is the froof to that?? Not from the bible definitely

In portuguese?

where is the cruelty and abuse

I was having the same thought😄🤗

@@Carol-Vaiphei Isn't written iron sharpeneth iron!

I agree!

No sure about history accuracy, as he seems to get a very basic fact about Paul so very wrong. See Paul as a scribe, not apostle, and second his writing, for the most part, was dealing with local Congregational problems. He was the central figure of early Christianity.

Same here. I've read a few books by Tom Holland and Dominion in particular was incredibly eye-opening. I doubt I will ever consider myself a 'believer' in the traditional sense, but recongnising that my atheist humanist values are essential a rebranding of the latest Christian reformation has been utterly fascinating.

I suggest reading philosophy and getting acquainted with history of thinking, philosophy, mythology and storytelling.. also history of archaeology to understand that Christianity and the Bible are in no way first to have done anything really.. there’s been all types of philosophies and mythologies and religions before Christianity and a lot of what has gone into Christianity has been borrowed and carefully collated not only in 1st century, but also all the way throughout the last 2000 years of engineering and refining Christianity (probably less so in the last 200 or so years though.. where things have become much more ‘set in stone’ and less ‘fluid’).. I really do recommend getting to know more about the Sumerian culture, Babylonian culture, Egypt, Ancient Greece and Rome.. and only then do you have any chance to understand the context and the true origin and source and what is and what is not actually ‘Christian’.. I also recommend listening to Bart Erhman.

@@thegoodthebadandtheugly579 Actually being an Unlicensed Non-Certified historian (That sounds better than a history nut :-)) I actually have read, studied that. There are differences though between those pagan myths and Christianity. One being the Christian Myth, to paraphrase Tolkien is a myth that actually happened. It takes place in Time & Space. Over and over in the Gospels/Acts the phrases When someone was ruler, and that place was where this happened. There is a line from CS Lewis's "Surprised By Joy" that has always stuck with me. "Early in 1926 the hardest boiled of all the atheists I ever knew sat in my room on the other side of the fire and remarked that the evidence for the historicity of the Gospels was really surprisingly good. "Rum thing," he went on. "All that stuff of Frazer's about the Dying God. Rum thing. It almost looks as if it had really happened once.""

Tray Don’t Say - I am afraid this idea that you have to think outside of the box on a subject and stretch your imagination is proving too much for you…! You re the one who needs to read more outside of your comfort zone… You are hoodwinked and brainwashed - and convinced you know something. You clearly know ONE blinkered side and cling to it like a limpet… I hope you can open up - because you are heading in a benighted direction.

I don’t think that Christianity is humanist , Jesus was a racist Rabbi, his racism lead Paul to establish a new religion for non Jews and shifted the Roman world from worshiping a Roman man to worshiping a Jewish man ( via the same Myths ) while humanitarian Jews stand with Palestinians and they are the strongest supporters of Palestinian rights by Contrast evangelical Christianity universally support the oppression of Palestinians and are the strongest supporters of Zionism yet they claim their values are humanist . this example question such claims .

@Matthew Pace who hurt you?

Except that Tom Holland can't speak without stuttering.

@Mark Matthew Pace Nobody cares where you live or how many kids you have. How is that pertinent? And "truth" and "lies" aren't capitalized words.

What was the big take away for you 😏

@@tbillyjoeroth haha

It amazes me that so many operate on faith and ignorance - devoid of historical and/or doctrinal contextual knowledge.

@@food4thort everyone operates in some level of ignorance. Faith or no faith. It’s just part of people learning to grow up. Not enough people have had to face reality enough to even be aware that they are ignorant. If someone doesn’t teach them, and they don’t think it’s important enough to look and learn on their own? What are you gonna do? Can’t make a horse drink water but you can salt his oats and make him thirsty.

@@food4thort I think it has to do with our culture and school system being to comfortable and not grounded enough in reality 😕 no one taught me anything about history or shared stories with me growing up. And frankly I didn’t care about learning. Just getting good enough grades to memorize answers to tests to appease my parents who I didn’t even have a relationship with. It’s all messed up for a lot of people.

​@@mamajo5867 But that's trickery, isn't it?

every time you drive your vehicle across a bridge or through a tunnel, you are acting on faith that it is a trustworthy structure, because we haven't met the architects or teams of construction workers and evaluated their fitness and capability for creating such strucutres prior to driving across them or through them. We probably haven't certified that the city has properly audited the structure, either. We just use reasonable evidence of other cars before us passing through unscathed, and take a reasoned gamble that we might be able to also have similar success. The Bible asks no one to put their mind in a waste bin, it asks each person to examine the evidence and make reasonable conclusions. I Jn 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life- the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us- that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

Absolutely!

Well said

This is an interesting idea. Do you mind explaining for me in what ways these three cultures are idealised respectively today?

Liam Johnson Media, Philosophy, & Political believes. Stargate, Percy Jackson, & Harry Potter (to a lesser degree) are all media related things. Also, anything related to Atlantis is from all three. It is a well know set of mythologies, that requires little new material to market. Philosophically speaking stoicism is making a comeback in pop culture. Of course, the Republic is always worth the read. Any number of other names (most of which I have to look up how to spell) show up. Epicurean philosophy is almost always talked about, but not always in vogue. This, of course, is also intertwined within any media or political discourse using these. Politics is just clear really. The ideas are through out the political sphere, due to the fact your personal philosophical view informs your actions & morals. That blended with whatever media has influenced you, lays out your political views often. Some people go with their gut, but they say these influence them. A large amount of these ideas are not new, but come from the Rome or Greece. The Republic we live in, the democracy everyone thinks it is, etc.. The epic is brought out, but the history is forgotten. We do this to our detriment. Not to say you should not read the originals, but the pop culture usage glosses over things. Things like a stoic killing himself because he told the Emperor he had deaden himself to that beyond his control. Of course, he told it to a madman & that didn't help either. Still, I could not accept stoicism as a way of life, it does have some good points. God Bless

mackdmara Very interesting, however I would not say many people, especially of my generation, are stoic in their approach to life; Epicurean, yes, but there is no sense in which millennials realise that they are owed very little. Also, there is very little discipline or self control in them. But you may be referring to some other aspect, or to the intelligentsia?

Same!

Yep. Paul sent me here. Great guy. He’s nonstop content, commentary, and critique.

@@Btn1136 he's still at it!!!!

absolutely!

Jesus is MORE awesome for the poor and the downtrodden, and all those who're helped by religious organisations and who find religion to be a source of comfort.

Only in Calvinism, which is one minority stream on the fringes of Christianity. There are other ways of looking at these questions and resolving the paradoxes.

Austin James I agree! When Paul spoke at Mars Hill he drew the Roman citizens in by finding the common beliefs they shared. When we have hearts for justice, God's salvation is close by.

Interesting to find you on this RU-vid comment section Austin. I hope you're doing ok in Lubbock. Cheers.

Ghost writers

relaxthenrefresh thanks!

Bazton I agree

@@fraukatze3856 The easy way to interpret Pauls writings is to ask the church that has the original interpretation, the Catholic church

@@eamonnmurphy5385 ....but not The Roman Catholic church 😎

@@1969cmp Paul was a member of the original Church which was the only Christian Church in existence. It went on within maybe 50 years to be known as the Catholic(means Universal) So, Paul was a member (in effect) of the Catholic Church! Why would we not rely on that Church for its interpretation of what Paul's writings say in preference to interpretations of individuals over 1500 years later? They knew him, they understood him. He believed in their beliefs! They passed down these understandings!

@@eamonnmurphy5385 Paul was a member of the original church for which the church governing body was based in Jerusalem. I'm fine to use the term catholic but more accurate is simply Christian. The Roman Catholic church has a series of mishaps mostly based on power and poor theology as well as historical revisionism. And this was a problem from early on when the church in Rome was an outpost as most Christians were in the east part of the empire, and as mentioned earlier, the governing authority of the church was the Council in Jerusalem, for which Paul was under.

You have no idea how much of a pun that is for Marvel fans

@@thatguyk.5306 this guy ...

👍

i get the Spider man reference, but does it also mean the historian in the video is not a Christian? Or considers himself only as a cultural Christian?

@@BibleLosophR correct. At least, that's what was said in the beginning of the discussion in the video

As a former Christian, Wright is probably one of the more reasonable and erudite Christians out there. Both he and Peterson are stuck in pretty rigid thinking though, which constrains their intelligence, that's for sure.

That would be an interesting discussion. Wright represents the Historical-Literal, and Peterson the Psychological-Allegorical interpretation of the Bible texts. It would be an interesting wrestling match between Religious and Scientific analysis of the same stories.

William Oarlock Let me guess, you are the savior of mankind? When is your book coming out?

D Z How do you judge if someone is “rigid” in their thinking? Wright has been under fire for his views on the atonement, which is pretty orthodox Protestant theology.

Lol to your comment.

I've had the same thought. Wouldn't that be an amazing discussion. We can hope.

Nick Vis - Yes Nick, good of you to see this and also mention it. I cringe when I listen to Peterson concerning Christianity. He states early in his "Maps for Meaning" that he just cannot accept the Virgin Birth nor the Resurrection, nor of course understands that a new nature, a new inner creation, a new heart is required and this can only be given by Christ if we see him for what he is!

This comment is now on almost every video. JP is going to have a busy year it seems

....and throw Ravi Zecharias to help JP jump the gap from mythology to history.

@Khalid Ibn Alwaleed I believe he is referring to the content and not the fact that they agree. Not hard to find white Europeans who don't agree with all this though.

10camels many people do not truly study and analyse what they believe in. Christianity is a key component to understanding the Roman empire and the Middle East both of which Tom Holland has studied in depth. As such it should not be surprising. The great thing about Tom is that he tries and succeeds not to impose his own narrative on his findings. As such, here he sounds very much a Christian because he does not scoff at the beliefs he is discussing.

10camels , Something something “Not everyone who calls me Lord,” something...

Welcome to the 21st century. Christianity is alive and well but working underground.

I was brought up in a fundamentalist home and never felt a thing from the dogmas I was taught....yet listening to him I was both in awe and almost brought to tears at once!

@@gucker07 Right to the target!

You should buy Holland's "Dominion" as well.

THIS

Peter Jongsma a great way to put it 😊

Paul. Was a charlatan who changed stories and for what he deserved

@@markbeltra4927 don't speak like a muslim

That book sounds interesting! I’ll get it

It is a shame it took 1900 years for the "Compassionate" part to surface.

@@davidfrisken1617 Not sure you have watched the whole video at the time of posting that.

@@davidfrisken1617 yeah... obviously you didnt watch the video.

@@joserangel7346 I stopped at 52:55, so not quite to the end. What did I miss?

@@davidfrisken1617 Acording to your previous post... everything.

agree

Awesome discussion between N T Wright and Tom Holland and Justin Brierley a great host. I have listened to this show 7 times and hung on to every word. Very edifying. Thanks

That is because atheism: has no great story, no great leader, no great central teaching, no absolute truth and has no ethical roots!

William Brown Tom Holland isn’t a Christian

Lynn Adamson 0:53 (intro)

Tom Holland isn't a Christian. And when he said he was he meant it in a cultural sense. I think it was nice seeing a discussion rather than debate regardless of religious belief. They should do more discussions, with people with less radically opposing positions. I'm an atheist, but I can appreciate Christian thought. And I love the Bible. So I love discussing it.

@@1000whispering wow, I love you bro. Quite rare to see an Atheist like you 🙏

Wright studied classics and history at Oxford...

Colin Dowson ok Colin 😂