Objectively Bad Art 

this is the tl;dr for the video

Love hate relationship with art here

When the dube hits just right :

@@garethharriott9582 ahaaa quite literally

@@garethharriott9582 Jesus i didn't know i would find that so relatable hahaha

Moodt

Well, does it fuck?

Me too!

Jesus was an anarcho-communist based on the actual text of the bible, but the ideologues don’t like to engage with those parts of the bible.

honestly sometimes CJ is right but those cringe takes just disgust me

me too

​@@szefszefow7562 cope

"It's so bad it's good" is also a phrase often used to describe movies, but I haven't really heard it in regards to music, which makes sense - if a musician doesn't hit the notes, it's just painful to listen to. If a movie has a really weird color balance, or the dialogue is unnatural, or the actors can't convey their emotions, then that's something you can laugh about with friends. That's also what bad movies usually appear to do, be something you can connect over with other people - it sucks, everyone in the group agrees on that, but you can laugh about it.

@@lilia3944 also it takes sooooo much more time and energy to make a movie so someone(many people) had to care enough to make it which I think can make bad movies endearing

@@Littlebeth5657 that does depend on the music tho, if someone writes a bad symphony it's still a bad symphony, but likely took way more effort than, like, a single bad pop song.

YES. Thats why I frequently say "X is the best song on the album, but Y is my favorite song on the album."

@@lilia3944 uhhhhh, not true. Don't you know what outsider music is? It's highly influential among certain musicians. It's pretty cool, I love it. It's like ear candy.

i watched it at 0.75 speed

@@dianadriver I watched it on 2x speed

how many is that?

i will have to take notes to map out what the fuck hes saying lol

me too

he's gay

@@josephsimmons1232 gays, we just can't sit straight.

@@Ab1g4il I’m screaming lmaooooo it’s true tho

He is sitting in gay

Nice last name lmao

Stealing those rules. It's a method I learned when studying art history, and I became pretty good at analysis but at the same time having it so eloquently shortened is very useful and you have my eternal thanks for that.

I feel like grasping this is also crucial for realizing how differing experiences of how "good" or "bad" something is is based on differing ideas of what was the piece intending to achieve or get through. Change any one of the conclusion from those steps, and you end up with a different idea of how well the assumed intention was achieved. I'm not saying public media like movies as art are tied to a singular intention that is "correct", but that so often it really does come down to the assumed (or preferred) intention of the art that defines the polarization of the more harshly differentiated opinions. I'm also not saying an average person sharing opinions on a piece of media has though all those steps through, but that quite explicitly and precisely _because_ they haven't and that this is exactly what might get drowed out in the conversation. It's kind of the difference between a shout match between the "thing good" and "thing bad" parties versus an informed application of media literacy in a conversation. In practice, when it comes to general public conversation rather than art critique specifically, you simply might expect to have the same premise for your opinion as your debater has, which is natural if you don't make sure to consider whether you're even talking about the value of something with the same measures with each other. How come we ended up with these conclusions that are this far apart from each other?

If you applied it to my art it would fail some of these 1) Idk I just like drawing 2) GIMP 3) Idk I was told I "didn't use all available tools that could make it much better" 4) It's picture so using other tool (program) might not matter that much 5) I don't really do it to accomplish anything but just for my own fun

@@realdragon 1) your art is trying to be fun 2) you are using color and lines and composition in a visual art 3) I haven't seen your work so i can't comment on implementation of how well you know and execute color and lines and composition 4) i dont know what generalized art style you are using (realistic, chibi, doodle, lisa frank, Saturday morning cartoon, ect) 5) Yeah, you had fun drawing it, it did what you wanted 👍👍

@@AammaK yeah, the whole reason i started using these was an in class critique where the teacher was telling a different student their poem was bad because it lacked a feeling of intimacy, while the student was telling them they were trying to convey detachment, and it was like watching the student argue at a wall because the teacher had the preconceived notion that All Poetry Is About Intimacy

what Io Selene said

OH MY GOD I DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS SO RECENT UNTIL I READ THIS COMMENT TF???? HIS BRAIN RLY CONFOUNDS ME

I found this comment funny, looked at his channel, noticed the short time between each videos and went "how dare he"

@@cjthex I would also try to apply for fan citizenship, but my pandemic thirst would lead to some embarrassing variant on "I don't usually date dudes, but I would so love to mack on this bro," so, I'm just going to subscribe and hit the bell and appreciate this parasocial relationship in silence for a bit.

Marvelous ladybug show omfg I'm dying

Yeah he’s the most genuinely interesting person I’ve seen thus far. Usually people try to sound smart and unique but you can tell he’s ACTUALLY smart and unique.

Im so glad I found this channel tbh

I agree!

Lotta words. All true

I couldn't have said it better myself. No, really.

I love TLoU2 and think TLJ was the best of the new trilogy. People do not like my opinion.

@@hollandscottthomas I 50% hate you.

As someone whose favorite Star Wars movie is TLJ, but thought TLoU2 was boring, I feel like I can just postpone my gender crisis by waiting for you to figure yours out and slapping "anti-" in front of whatever you come up with.

@@hollandscottthomas i do like your opinion because I think the same

Those kinds of movies shouldn't be encouraged by your liking it dude. They only further contribute to the political and social polarisation of modern society

Came to say this!!!!

Same

@@3g0st I also have adhd, and in my experience, our brains run incredibly fast and are constantly seeking new information, meaning we have a lot of brain time to think up ideas like this and because our brains are wired differently it’s hard for neurotypical people to catch our drift, so when we find someone like this that is the Captain of our drift it’s incredibly rewarding and reassuring, and the fast paced, often jumpy organization of the points gives our brains the exact kind and speed of new information it wants and we reach a point of balance that feels to us like that normal information processing feels like to neurotypicals, but because it’s so hard for us to meet those requirements it’s a much grander level of release and dopamine than when an neurotypical person matches their rate of input

@@3g0st tldr anything that could be seen as over stimulating to most people is the desired level of stimulation for people with adhd and when we reach it (which is rare) it’s a huge dopamine rush

Gosh I just found him and he is SO good for my poor adhd addled head

why does this guy keep commenting on CJ’s videos? are you like some kind of weird stalker??

@@doctaflo i believe it’s his brother, i think he mentioned this in his wandavision video or the noface one

@@seemin8286, Lol, i know, i was just being cheeky :0) i got here from Ben’s Twitter feed - love his work on Mr. Sunday Movies’s channel

Did that mob came?

Most people NOT on the internet right? Because 90% of the time that line is met with elitism if not straight up casual racism and sexism depending on how insane the person is and/ or the situation. The person now finds a away degrade or look down on others who are essentially not them or don't share their point of view.

Sure, they can do that. But they miss the opportunity to observe the self-reflective "eureka" that comes when you realize that Shakespeare was right: nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so. When you observe beauty in the world, you're observing it in yourself. Who wouldn't want to stay with that for a minute?

People definitely need to LEARN to like or dislike stuffs and to be able to articulate WHY they like/dislike such things.

That's well and good, but a lot of people unknowingly interpret criticism of their tastes as an attack on them as a person. Like if I said Star Wars the Rise of Skywalker sucks to my friend who really enjoyed it, they may not see that as me shitting on that movie in particular, but rather as me implying "you're stupid for liking it". Ideally we as human beings can see past that, but from my experience, a lot of people don't (even me from time to time)

@@gnarwhal7562 i tend to find frustrations with that myself, as someone else who doesn't like the star wars sequels. like, i do want to express why i don't like them, but if someone else happens to be a fan, i would feel bad for explaining myself just because people did that to me before with other things i liked. sometimes it's positive, like when you are inadvertently being turned into a capitalist moderate who is complicit with fascism by 2016 anti sjw youtube videos. other times, it is just sad. being technically good is not a prerequisite for enjoying something, nor should it be. we would all be miserable if that were the case.

mediocrity is the call of our age though... don't you ever feel like they are trying to fool you into this 'mediacrity?' art that is government propaganda or art that is a rich kid without talent but an expensive degree? What kind of art is real and authentic in this world of government pushed mediocrity? hmmmmm.... Maybe we should like art that is nonsense without reading the 20 page paper on it? Maybe art is just a word and you can call everything art but tat would be such a tarp. Matter people want to be artists but don't really have vision? How can anyone from an art school achieve vision when education from the art school has destroyed it?

Precisely.

like, even if you don't like oscar wilde, you gotta admit he knew what the hell he was doing and this dude seems to be riding those same waves.

YES

yuh

most definitely.

I thought your hot and extremely spicey take was gonna be that stranger things is bad art because it has flashing lights despite that particular point easily being communicated some other way, that they made it bad art by scarificing accessibility to an aesthetic which would be a valid take i suppose,,, but what u said made a lot more sense than when my mind just came up with. So like is accessible art actually better or are u just gonna lose part of ur audience (because u put flashing lights in it and now they're having seizures)?

Problem with that is, accessibility as a standard is merely a collection of features that resemble a overarching concept of "the usual" or "the average", if what most people were used to and regularly exposed to was arthouse films, accessibility would relate to those, if most music the average person was exposed to was classical music it'd be hard rock or hip pop to be "not as accessible" instead of the other way around. The fact is that accessibility is a standard dictated merely by the status quo of media consumption, and actively aiming for that is not a good idea, however there are plenty of works of art that are both accessible and yet display great virtuousism, so treating the two as mutually exclusive is foolish, but that combination is still merely incidental, and treating accessibility in on itself as a quality is just as foolish.

@@marcogianesello6083 if two pieces of art can incite the same emotional weight, display an equal mastery of the form but one of them is so obscure it creates no emotion in half the audience or 90% of the audience or 99.9% of the audience it's less good as a piece of art than the one that is its equal but now accessible. It's not something that's completely perpendicular to quality, it's a type of quality. How you rate it against other things is up to you, but art is for everyone. You can understand and get more out of art by being a better audience and conversely art can engage more people by being better art.

@@jamesjwr well in that case then they are actually equal, and the accessibility allows one to be more "successful" than the other, but that doesn't make it "better" per se, because "better" as a term is fundamentally dependent on standards which transcend the singular personal experience, accessibility is the likelyhood of many people to have singular positive experiences with it, it's not something that exists independently of the people, now of coursr you could say that about every element of art but surely quality of cinematography for example is something that is inherent to the film, it's in the film itself, while accessibility is not something inherent to the film per se because it depends on the public, The godfather is a pretty accessible film compared to msny other films of such a level, yet I doubt it'd have much success with kids as it does with adults, so is that because it's not accessible? I wouldn't say so. If children's movies were more like the godfather just in terms of pace for instance, it would instantly become more "accessible" to that audience, so I strugglr with defining accessibility as a quintessential "quality" per se. Imagine a person who has never seen a film in their lives, you show them anything at all, to them no concept of accessibility applies, in that moment their experience is perfect because they have zero preconceived notions of what something is meant to be like, while elememts that are proper to the piece of art would still have an effect on that person even if they can't articulate how or what or why

@@marcogianesello6083 I think what they mean is "if you try to make an art piece for the general public but you make it so that only people with university degrees in art history or similar can understand it, an art piece with the same concept made in a way that the average everyday person with some sort of school education can understand is objectively better because it's accessible" or something like that. If your target audience is everyone, you have to be sure that you're actually making it for everyone. If your target audience is people with extensive knowledge about art then go ahead, accessibility to others is not a factor anymore because making is accessible would now alter the piece too much from its original concept. That's my take at least, OP can correct me if I'm wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

wtf is a soul?

​@@IPlayKindredbro no way u ask that in this context, it means something like mind or some part of their mind but is not well defined for a reason

@@ninja8flash742dude I was trying to be a jerk for no reason, it aint that deep.

@@IPlayKindred oh ok I just assume people are asking things in good face all too often I guess

​@@ninja8flash742nah there's good faith behind the jerkiness, I am just on too many levels of irony.

Yes! And ow, childhood friends to enemies. Like, I want to find a story that fits that, but noooooo my heart

Oh my god, they were roommates

@@yuuri9064 Phoenix Wright fits

@@user-dg9dw5qm8s less enemies, more rivals

truth

Ah a fellow Lindsay Ellis fan.

Also, Cinema Wins >> Cinema Sins.

Really That Good is a, um, good one of those

Reminds me of the mantra "it's easier to write a sad song than a happy one"

Filmento is better than cinema wins or sins, because there’s the explanation of something is good. Also, I like to see why people think something that I like is good or bad. It’s interesting to see what is a “hard no” from others that, to me, gets a pass. Or get some perspective on why someone could like something I really don’t like.

Quick thing but I think you meant inherent not inherit? They sound very similar. Like the whole “take it for granted/granite” saying.

omg i feel the exact way. what a gem to find in this youtube hellscape

Also I actually would like a juice box, thank you

@@josephsimmons1232 here have a *juice box*

What a coincidence! I am too!

My bag was stolen :(

I am being targeted by this comment

to some extent. not entirely. plus you can further subdivide 'taste' as a part of 'identity' into outward-facing/inward-facing taste - what art do you enjoy while you're alone? what art do you perform enjoyment of? how do those two things differ or overlap? I guess what I mean is that outward 'performed taste' is a subsection of a subsection of identity as a whole. and being unsure of the performance of yourself is not only a completely universal feeling, but shows that you're self-aware (generally a good thing!)

i am in this comment and i don't like it

Literally me 😐

@@ashton1860 I really appreciate this take!! that's all I wanted to say, I just enjoyed reading that and I like the way you think. very solid

Totally agree. I love when I see things that are obviously made by people who cared about what they were making, who had fun with it. Even when the thing they made is “flawed”.

@@CampingforCool41 exactly!!!! There’s so many things I see where I see the flaws but I love it wholeheartedly because I can see the artist was really passionate about making it and decided to share a piece of themselves

That’s a great point! i’ve been trying to put my finger on why i hated the new live action disney/sequels more than the old direct to dvd ones. and i think it’s because even though both are ‘objectively bad’, a lot of the older ones clearly had some passion behind them, like the masterpiece that is cinderella III: a twist in time

You are wrong

The argument could even be made that it doesn’t really count as “art” in the ways that matter

Like 'Piss Christ'?

I am insignificant, and will very likely leave no lasting impact on the world outside whatever present joy and comfort I can bring into the lives of the small circle of people I interact with... and I am content and happy in that insignificance.

I didn't expect someone to quote TMA in the comments, but I'm very happy that you did because I *love* this quote

Real Existentialist

"Psychedelic academia" is quite literally the perfect term to describe this channel. Well done.

"Beatniq on acid" beautiful

Slippery Joseph is the best name I've ever heard for a dog-snake hybrid I need one now

God speed, Slippery Joseph, I wish her fortunes and sweaters

your happiness with her is what she added to the world

@@chantalbellmont6937 this is very true. She’s fun to draw cause she’s not too complex a design. Even my mediocre ass can manage to draw her in more or less any situation and that’s nice

Slippery Joseph sounds like a baddie

There are some actually good video essays out there on youtube, this is the easiest platform to release them

It's so nice having a creator on RU-vid I don't feel the need to turn the speed up on

Wish I could go to a cafe or salon and listen to people like this interact.

Nice comment.

Yeah we do have a weird idea in the US about what it means to be Christian, don't we? Like if you actually read the damn book and look at how it's been interpreted throughout history, we take a lot for granted. Maybe that's a european influence, maybe it has something to do with the country being founded by religious radicals, I don't know. I like to think about Jelly Roll's version of Jesus, who in his mind would be on the side of prostitutes, addicts, and all the rejects of society. It's Christianity for the white trash as well as the suburbanite. It's the acknowledgment that god is on your side even if you're poor.

There's a few of these folks, I'm also thinking of Hank Green here. They're pretty cool, but unfortunately still the minority. I'm very much an apostate but I wish you guys best of luck! I know that it's a big ask, but I hope that people like these can, in some small gradual way, change the institution from the inside.

this is my first time seeing someone use the phrase "gender envy," and i want to thank you for giving me those words. also i agree with your comment

I mean the goal is to make enjoyable art, isn’t it? Maybe the artist intends for their art to be enjoyable one way but the fans they get enjoy it another. For example, people watching bad-funny movies like the Room. Or fans who dislike the creator but love the concept of their work just taking the reigns (in fan art, fan fiction, ect.). Or even just analyzing a piece of media to see what works and what doesn’t. I love criticism videos. I love “this [thing] was better than you remember” videos. I love theory videos. What I hate, however…. Is hating on people or whatever they decide to enjoy, however they decide to enjoy it (I mean, as long their method of enjoyment isn’t hurting anybody).

Sometimes the enjoyment of art comes not from its skill, quality, range, talent, message, or all the ways it excels, but from its humour, absurdity, failures and all the ways it falls short of its ambitions. Great art goes beyond its ability and/or expectations to excel and impress, good art achieves what it was aiming for, mediocre art fails to clear the bare minimum of its ambitions, and bad/terrible art hits the end of the bucket and goes "we can still go further" There are at least 5 ways to rate media/art (at least to me); technical quality, character/narrative quality, cinematography/art quality, is the movie good overall, and most importantly: Do YOU enjoy it? A movie can be a 9/10 across the board, but I could hate it, or it could be 1/10 across the board and be my favourite fckin movie. Something could have amazing characters or narrative, but be ugly as hell to look at + have terrible cinematography.

Ok what about Temporary Secretary.

@@theonionqueen3519 i hate that song, listening at least. But it objectively hits all the marks, it's about a creepy fucking dude. That song gives me an anxiety attack

Oh really? I'm glad you're an ex fan.

Seriously? People fucked with Laura Bailey? God damnit humanity.

Selling a blank canvas to a rich guy makes the entire world mad except for you and the rich guy because now you made a ton of cash and he gets to donate the new "priceless" art piece to a charity and get a massive tax write off, while essentially giving you a gift of cash in exchange for other illegal services you have provided and used art as a way to launder the money. That is art that is truly evil and actively harms society.

Holy shit this just reset my brain

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mQ8P4DNQA90.html&ab_channel=wwwscorevideos It's interesting seeing how people have attempted to do this very thing in the past. It's also pretty funny seeing all the weird assholes in the comments who end up loving the song.

I don't think it'd be possible, outside of an incredibly controlled audience. Like, something tailored to be offensive to a singular individual. There's too many sheer subjective experiences for you to be able to draw upon something from your experiences and interpretation of "bad" to make something that's universally "bad". Make something hammy, it'd be lauded by the ironic, make something sheer frustration and noise, it'd resonate. I think the only way you could probably end up making something bad is either to put in a genuine effort, and fail spectacularly, or just to make nothing at all, which I suppose people might end up appreciating, given that you're trying to make "objectively bad" things.

May I direct you to evidence A. The infinitely stretching trail of the uncanny Valley. That very same gods trail of failures.

19:08

I mean, honestly, wouldn't it make sense for god to be neither male nor female therefore trans lol

@@alexandria2243 The word you are looking for is intersexual.

God is everything and therefore nonbinary

@@alexandria2243 Not unless you believe in a changeable god without a nature

I'm interested in what you said, I have always been insecure about my taste in music. How can people not hear what I hear in this? How can I mot hear what everyone else hears in that? I think there's many factors at play here, but my opinion is trending towards the idea of music being like food. Junk food is more pleasurable to eat but it isn't satiating like healthy food. It takes self control to appreciate the richer taste of the healthy food instead of going straight foe unhealthy food when you're hungry. I think music is the same way.

I do this sober loll

u givin me war flashbacks to the 2011 christian rap scene

I remember that, even back when I was Christian, I hated reading Christian books because the big climax was always "Yay, Jesus! Hey, remember how he forgave you bc you're a piece of shit?". Same with music. It's all boils down to the same blob.

@@ToastyJunebugs omg yes. There was a middle grade book series I was intrigued by when I was younger where the protagonist would get visions from God that she would interpret to help detectives solve crimes or something, I can't quite remember. But I realized as I was reading the first one that the opposition to her visions was nonexistent in the first book. Anyone who questioned her would be easily swayed, and that was rare to find because police/detectives would take her word at face value. Even middle school me thought that was garbage and dropped the series immediately. Edit: here's me calling it garbage when the whole video was arguing against evaluating art that way lol!

@@cjthex I still remember all the lyrics to the jesus themed hip hop they made us sing in church 😰

I would love this! I'm Christian and I HATE the movies (we all know the embarrassing failure of the God's not dead series). These movies always shame everyone and their beliefs/culture if they're not Christian, even going as far as to villian-ize them. It's very frustrating to see as our message is supposed to be one of love.

Haha we might make good friends! I tend to watch videos at 1.something times speed. Nothing wrong with you for enjoying a well-cited video! It adds accountability and lets you follow up on interesting things the creator mentions

That bibliography was a flex! I need him to posts it. And him speaking so fast in all his videos while being deeply profound and also hilarious is next level. My brain can't even think this fast!

Trueeeee

Also, yes, the answer is yes c:

hell yeah moderndayjames

!

My man

Yass

I'm back to say that the essay I'm working on was due an hour and a half ago and I desperately want a snack or a juice box.

Still got the receipt?

@@oldvlognewtricks cute

Tell me you have adhd without telling me you have adhd