I’m an almost complete beginner with this type of bow and the only advise I can give you, based on what works for me, is a “well dosed kathra”, when I do it too open and free it actually makes the arrow fly in a curved path for some reason. When I snap it short and restrained it turns well timed and brushless. I can’t reproduce it each time, it’s kind of like I apply a stopping brake at the end of the miniature kathra. It’s just an image that helps me proportion better the dynamic which works. Cheers!
Thanks for taking the time to make this this video. I never thought it mattered much if there was a little slap at the bow on the release. The magic of slow motion. Great work, this is what the old archers knew and most of us today dont have time or patience for. Literally need to slow down.
Great slow-mo video shots! First, as I was corrected, it's 'hatra' with the 'kh' spelling being an English annotation of the guttural 'h' pronunciation from the throat. Second, I'll describe what I've learned from my own analysis, and hopefully you'll see it too. Khatra as I've come to know it, means nothing more than 'the end pose of an archer after release, showing where your muscle tension is & is-not', aka: follow through. Notice in this video your hand & arm movements just after release: your draw-hand moves away from your face, and your bow-hand moves directly left; this means your muscle tension is pulling your hands & arms in these directions during the draw-release cycle. I've personally greatly improved and cleaned my release by really focusing on correcting these two movements in myself. It feels as if I'm: pulling my rear shoulder back through my draw, my front shoulder forward, and my hand reaching into the target with the lower joint of the thumb (thus rotating the bow-arm) - all as a 'dynamic recoil-release' effect. I believe this dynamic release is described in the green "Arab Archery" book, as best as it the author could describe it: 'punching' into the target, but should be more correctly described as 'reaching' to the target. In my video "KTB 1" I'm focusing on the above described, while pulling my draw-hand behind my head (isolating the back and forearm muscles), and you'll notice my draw-hand stops and rests on my shoulder, without any other movement. I believe this is only half of what's needed for a clean release. Now If I could only not work so much to the point I wake up and can't close my hand ('death grip syndrome'), or my forearms and wrists laden with tendonitis have a chance to heal, I might be inclined to make a video on my 'final form'.... :( Until then, I must live vicariously through people like you! Also: that 1/2" dowel, I been there! It drops like a rock vs. other arrows, but it hits hard! Lol. Great experiments! Keep at it if you can!
Brian C. thanks for insights. i have seen your videos on khatra (hatra) and now i'm barely getting the point. yes, i have issue with release and body alignment. release hand going off the line, throwing my hands outward. still working one it. ^_^;; hope you get better and start making archery videos soon again. i learn a lot from others like you. ;) thank you.
@@yehenala1 When I can wake up able to close my hand, or holding a cup of water isn't a task I need to focus on... Making another vid is definitely on my mind and something I've been wanting to do, but my work fatigues my back & grip muscles to the point I can't use 'em. Until then I got iyoo1 to watch and envy :)
@@BrianCx hi brian how is your condition now? I think I got some issue like you, my left pinky is suffering trigger finger because I'm holding my bow too hard and it's already about 2 months I can't clench my hand properly.
@@jatisatrio My issues are still ongoing unfortunately as a result of what I do for work (which is seasonal). If you can, avoid alcohol (I know it temporarily helps/feels good), stretch your hand muscles, and do your best to take a while to rest and recover. Besides cannabis, this is the best I've found as it's all about resting the muscles/tendons for recovery.
I just learned a lot from that . I've been driving myself crazy trying to figure out where the slap I hear is happening and when . Those slow mo views show exactly what's happening. I'm definitely making some of the oak intercontinental ballistic missiles too. That is a beast of an arrow . I subscribed on this video. Well done man !
I have been attempting khatra for a few weeks now. The only way I can do it consistently is to hold the bow in such a way that it will be automatically be moved when arrow is released. The bow hand needs to be under tension when pulling the bow so that the riser goes out of the way of the arrow (down and/or to the side).
Paper test also shows how good release is. Or shooting at close distances like 3m, and watching arrow nock movement in the target. Or shooting bareshaft.
@@iyoo1 I think the most important bit is demonstrated really well, which is the purpose of khatra being to remove the arrow slap. There are some videoes on youtube that claim that it improves arrow speed with a final push, as an engineer I find that to be a somewhat ridiculous claim. Either way this will really help me improve my khatra now that I fully understand the purpose.
@@paradox_1729 i haven't heard that claim. if i have to assume, friction would work as minus. regardless i love hearing about a perspective from engineering point of view. as you know there are some miss information about archery since lots of us are not engineers and being taught by books and words of mouth. i love objective, factual information. so please put it out there if you see anything you can add. i greatly appreciate it. :)
@@kevinmaughan9445 i have been doing it about 5 years. started with compound bow, 3 finger shooting to now asiatic reflex bows with thumb release. still learning as i'm going.
I'm trying to learn khatra, too~ When I shoot arrows, it's so disheartening to hear the sound of the arrow slap and to see the damage to the arrow pass on my Kheshig from Alibow lol
Really nice and useful video. Have you tried twisting the string with right hand before release ? There's an amazing slo-mo footage by Armin Hirmer showing how much it improves arrow flight
thanks. and, yes, i have and still working on it. releasing is a lot more difficult than i thought it was, especially in higher poundage bows. i also learn a lot from Armin's videos. :)
Are you applying torque to the bow while drawing back the arrow? That way, the release of the string also lets the bow out of the way, the tension of the string kept the khatra from happening until you release the string...
Thanks for the great video! The over-the-shoulder shots were VERY useful. I couldn't tell much from the angles looking straight at you. I am suffering from arrow slap as well, causing my shots to enter the gaozhen nock-right. Interestingly, it only happens with thumb draw (and not with finger draw from the same side of the bow). So I think my release might be the problem, not my khatra? Experimenting with a steadily expanding release has been helping some. Also, the stiffer the arrow I use, the less problem I have. Do you think your arrow slap was caused by poor khatra or poor release? What change would you make to your khatra to eliminate arrow slap? More lateral torque? Thanks again for the great video!
thanks for detailed comment. assuming arrows you are using are proper length and spines, and etc., i think release is the issue. i noticed that when i use Slavic release i tend to have smoother release. maybe it's because how finger point inwards (slivic) compare to thumb points outwards (thumb release) that isolation of the string can move the end of arrow side ways - which, i think, creates a not clean release. i love to shoot all these theories in high-speed camera but i don't have fast one. one day, i love to analyze more with better video. :)
seems to me that spine mattered quite a bit there. it looks a lot like the 340 spine arrow and the heavy oak arrow came out the straightest consistently. Or at least more easily on the first try. I think a heavy spine is favored more in this cas?
After looking at the video again; I agree more that it was your khatra allowing the softer arrows to fly correctly. However; now I'm curious how a 250 spine carbon arrow flights out of your bow I'm thinking of getting a set at a local shop (discount ;D and I know no one wants those arrows)
Thanks for the video. I was wondering how khatra affected the arrow flight. In particular, how the movement of the bow arm would not throw the aim off. It seems that if done right, the bow doesn't move until the arrow has cleared the bow.
Yea. That's what I got the most out of this video. In looking up khatra a bunch of sources make a big deal about the archer "moving the bow out of the arrow's way". That seemed ridiculous based on human reaction times. And your video clearly shows the bow hand not moving until the arrow is past the bow, in both successful and unsuccessful releases. I intuited that it must be a different part of the release process causing the difference. And now I know to ignore advice about moving the bow hand, except as a useful follow-through motion.
Hello, nice video and keep training untill perfect you are on the right way :). I have noticed that on some shot just before the release you are pushing the arrow into the bow with you index finger (drawing hand). This causes some issues as far as I have experienced, because it changes dynamic spine of the arrow. If you can hold the arrow on the bow just lightly pressing without introducing any bend, it will improve. If there is correctly performed khatra it works, but it has to be timed precisely - on some of your shots arrow already left the bow before your bow hand moved. I am using thumb release for more than 6 years now and I have found out that khatra is not that beneficial in target archery, but it can be useful for flight archery or for some exhibitions like shooting through mail or so.
thanks, Michal. yes, i have noticed how my timing is late. still figuring out to have better release. i'm trying to hold the bow as soft as i can but it's not easy with all the pressure my bow creates. thanks for the insights and help. :)
that's is depends on your preference. if you are like me, use heavy arrows (10 gpp and over). it slows down the arrow speed so it can help you to actually see arrow's trajectory. if you prefer fast arrow speed you can use lower weight so acheive that. :)
Im not an expert and i dont know what your skill level is, but i would think that it is difficult to have effective khatra with a grip that is loose like that. Also, it seems like your release is affecting the arrow slap. I think it would be interesting if you retried this experiment with 4 additional years of experience under your belt.
It seems as though your Khatra is late in almost all incidents. The movement of your bow hand seems to be late.. this is just a observation. It seems that your bow hand should move the same time as you release the string, since you cannot know the speed of the string.
Been practicing kathra for a year now. I can't do it right. Every time i do it i miss target by a foot or even more...i either do it too fast or too slow idk. It's pretty hard.
@thomas damascus yes, i know. i'm still making mistakes, sometimes. lower poundage bows are easier to control and to perform khatra with. over 50#, i still pay attention as i shoot. war bow, a long way to go. lol. one thing helped me was to change pressure on your palm for the bow hand. as you pull, try to put pressure to the bottom (root) of the thumb and let the bow swing either out or to the side depending on your preference. hope that makes some difference. :)
@@iyoo1 ohhh so less pressure or grip on a handle should make it bounce to a side more natural? I will try that! I was watching armin from malta archery and trying his way of doing it which is controlled kathra but.... No success. Timing needs to be perfect every shot which is near impossible in my case. Thank You for the tip!!!
I used to have the same feeling of missing when i used torque. However seeing myself in slow mo, i realised that with bad form and no torque, i had adjusted my aim to shoot diagonally. Try torque / khatra and adjust your aim to where the arrows land.
@rpgiom1863 I finally do kathra now hah but i don't do side one because it still feels unnatural to me so i do down kathra. I press on grip forward with upper part of hand and pull tight with bottom two fingers and as soon as i release the arrow bow drops for me on its own. I also hold the bow at 45 degrees and my shooting is pretty good. Can't believe it took me so long to learn how to do it properly 🤣 But yea, i still can't do side torque kathra it feels wrong to me.
The arrows leave the string before khatra motion, therefore no effect. If you were moving the bow before arrows released, you would have very bad accuracy.
