on the Scientology ‘beat’ with Tony Ortega 

Although Tony was never in Scientology, I love hearing his take on it. I've listened to all his stuff and am chuffed to see this video. Thanks

Great talk! Thank you!

I enjoyed it, very interesting and entertaining.

My two fave fella's 👍💙🧡💜

Wow, great history details from Tony. I lived in Phoenix from 1972 til Dec 1975 when I ran off to join Sea Org. John Matoon was the Guardian's Office guy at Phoenix. Tony's experience digging into the Rick Ross battle with Scientology, just is so appreciated. One still, to this day, deeper problem to groups like Scientology, is these groups' offerings. Scientology's offering is what gets no appreciative mention, but is key to why the nastiness part of Scientology is tolerated by those in Scientology. (For posterity, if John Matoon is alive, I wish he'd be interviewed about his Guardian's office files he upkept on Tony and Tony's OSA files today, likely begin with John Matoon's writings about Tony since it was John's Guardian's Office job to start keeping tabs on Tony, LOL!) It's incredibly important Tony's whole career and influence in digging into the intricacies of the Hubbard Scientology operation. My only long term criticism of Tony and the critical (and always correct) take of Scientology, is the leaving out of the "good" half of the Scientology subject problem. But that's some academic's job, or some cultural big name writer/author's career level job, to tackle human history's bigger ideas failings that have resulted in the status quo allowance for groups like Scientology to even be in business. it's the "good" and false promises part of the Scientology operation which is a human story also, and needs someday tackling, but some future smart mind. The lure part of Scientology stands on the backs of prior luring concepts in human history. The whole subject of being lured by the false promises that Hubbard ties right into the whole human history of other groups and subjects similarly luring ideas. (It's probably already been tackled, and just needs repeating and updating this sorry human tradition of placing false hopes in groups selling quackery/fantasy soul powers business.) I'm forever grateful to Tony's mind, and yours, Jon. Thankyou for your even taking up this Hubbard mess. Jon, today, I wished in your years to come, you did a deep dive into Hubbard's pulps era writings, and selected all those years' of his satanic themes and the supernatural plots and characters. The supernatural human powers parts of Hubbard's pulp era stories, and it would expand and fill in what later became Scientology's false promises. Unpaid research, it all is, and so few smart thinkers even take on his Hubbard mess. Eternal gratitude to you and Tony.

The Bunker community like no other

Tony got embroiled in it cause his moral compass is strong

Thank you for this nice discussion! Dear Mr. Attack I have a question regarding different potential outcomes after the death of LRH. And you are probably one of the most qualified persons on the subject. Did other persons like the Broekers had a realistic chance of defeating Miscaviges rise to power? As a thought experiment: How might have Scientology developed under another leadership? For example instead of Miscaviges Scientology an organization lead by the Broekers? Would the organization in such an alternate scenario move into a different direction, or would the same toxicity remain?

Hope you 2 do live Zoom videos!

*Chuck* I have seen a surge in videos which suggests another A&E series already in production

MY NEMESIS DAVID ORDER 2 BUNKER BUSTERS A.S.A.P

18:06 Pat Broeker had LRH's "pc folders" which contained all importantly the Hubbard final "research" into the unreleased "higher levels" of Scientology to come were contained, which needed study and doing the Hubbard orthodoxy compilation process. Karen delaCarriere said Ray Mitoff was unable to repeat what Hubbard did in Hubbard's final years of solo quackery on himself. For instance, the worksheet paper moment in the LRH funeral event showed a date in the past, which Hubbard honestly (deludedly) thought he'd reached in his backtrack. Well, of course, Ray, when trying to repeat this feat of memory, was incable delving that deeply into Ray's own case, solo. This is important, Pat, no one who knows all the traffic that came and went to Hubbard, no one whose read the final years of LRH's traffic (and I on the routing forms project read the administrative Hubbard final years of writings, both the Int Management traffic, and the ASI traffic) would disagree that Pat ought to have been the "leader." But that's not Pat's style, there needs to be a full complete character analysis of Pat, he was from the "finance" background in his exec jobs in Sea Org up til his entourage with Hubbard final years. He wasn't a Kerry Gleason level of hands on Executive Director who could do it all. Kerry was a Class 12, Kerry was "old school" in the sense of being a Class 12, and an OEC/FEBC, and Pat was none of those things. IN the actual personnel grading background details of who was who, in Sea Org top entourage and "top management" personnel history, the pre Miscavige era personnel were far far more "qualified" to be the interitors of the movement, and Pat Broeker himself was a glorified Commodor's Messenger, and the CMO Messengers were themselves, one ofr one, not qualified really, to run the movement. Hubbard did over in the late 1970s for the top messengers to do their OEC training, to get them up to speed to become the future leaders of the movement, just talk more in detail to Janis Grady about that. The late 1970s did have Hubbard ordering his top CMO to do the OEC and become as trained as Kerry, but that never came to be. Not from the 1980s to now, have ANY of the CMO become legitimate Class 12s and become complete OEC/FEBC/PR (and Mark Ingber did the 1980s "Int Base Staff Status" lineup of all the training the "top management" of the movement were to train on, but this never happened.) (One legitimate criticisms of Marty Rathbun are his massive lack of ever getting to Class 12 and OEC/FEBC/etc either, he was a nobody on paper per Hubbard's own requirements, he was a Miscavige tagalong, and Miscavige never reached Class 12/OEC/FEBC/etc either.) The personnel on the lamb, the top entourage with Hubbard, were always never up to full speed as top Class 12s, and Pat never himself also. When you get honestly into the Hubbard weeds, you see how Hubbard sabotaged his own movement, he made becoming a Class 12 Case Supervisor so arduous and impossible, and Hubbard made the training of OEC/FEBC/PR/Sea-Org-Briefing-Course so long long runway, and undoable, that Hubbard is the one who make his subject "top management" level unachievable. This is criticism that is just completely outside the understanding of the experts like you and Tony. But it's an internal reason why the Miscavige era evolved. No one else, not the John Eastment's (John was a pre Miscavige era Commodore's Staff Aide for Divisions 4 and 5, and of person's who would even appreciate my comment, John and Peggy Eastment could understand this point I'm making, both are Class 12s, both achieved some high degree of "doing it all" and becoming the actual "top" correctly fully trained level Scientologist, to rightfully embody all that the actual top leader of the movement ought to exemplify). I speak almost from the highest level, legitimately authorized per the rules of Hubbard's orders, delusional as Hubbard's long layout of writings to the "top management" were, but Pat Broeker and Annie, and all the top CMO Int and Int Base persons, few of them, could rightfully get up to being a Class 12 Case Sueprvisor, for real. Per the Hubbard requirements. The subject is so difficult, as quackery truly Scientology is, still, the accomplishing of the "top leadership" roles required more than any since the Hubbard hands-on era actually did accomplish, when Hubbard was there. But, all said, it's of course "shit" like Kerry Gleason (him being the last of the correctly standardly Class 12, OEC/FEBC/etc, steeped in all things detailed latest Hubbard orders and Kerry had the skills), Pat wasn't a Kerry. Miscavige never was even a Class 6 Interned Scientologist. Miscavige wasn't and hasn't still risen to Class 12 Case Supervisor. Marty never did either. The whole movement's top leadership criticism discussion just isn't in anyone's full cognizance. So when outsiders, even as expert as you and Tony are just miles out ahead of all experts on Scientology history like no one alive (and likely no one to come in the future on Scientology), I just have to tell you Pat Broeker would have been a flawed leader on paper, per the book Hubbard wrote, in all cases, anyways, and the fault if Hubbard's prolific long runway requirements for his "leaders" of the movement, which to this date, not a durned person should waste their lives chasing after anyways. That's the messier Hubbard problem, I'll add these details. I grade Scientologists based on who I saw in the period 1975 til 2003 when I was there in Sea Org, and I saw the leaders and the Class 12s come and go, and I rose to be on projects where I had the luxury to read the administrative full writings behind the scenes, by Hubbard, seeing how the Hubbard "issues" were compiled, and how the "research" raw material form Hubbard's orders and from Hubbard's own experiences, and others' experiences doing the "piloting" (and several years in the staff training rooms I helped do the "piloting" of various aspects of the Hubbard administrative "tech" quackery), it's all to be graded forever, to Hubbard's writings. Scientology is a Hubbard subject. So Hubbard facetime followers, to me, today, I hope write as much as they can recall. To fill out the history. The Hubbard behind the scenes writings of Hubbard that have only been read but still not released publicly are all under CST/archives caretaking. So many people who ought be interviewed to ask more about all the final years of Hubbard output, and the imperfect flawed personnel on duty when Hubbard died, from then, til now, just how untrained and unbriefed the current caretakers and staff of the movement are. I wish Foster Tompkins would blow and talk freely to you Tony Ortega.

35:24 Jon, Question. ON the Rogers statement that Hubbard jocularly commented "....Let's sell these people a piece of blue sky...." the way you tell it here, sounds very much like a self depricating Hubbard, who is known to make jocular self incriminating admissions, sort of pre-emptively stating the worst and obvious about himself, freely, to close followers, or like that letter from Hubbard to Forest Ackerman about the upcoming effects of Dianetics, exaggerating the worst about it. ,Hubbard all through his writings and lectures sporadically makes these jocular self deprecating deviously worded self critical statements, saying the opposite, to prove he's guiltless, constantly Hubbard says on the surface feigned admissions. To me, as you tell the Rogers' incident, it sounds to me like Hubbard was telling himself he was being upfront, kind of as upfront as in the letter to Forest Ackerman, of the power that his upcoming Dianetics "tech" was to supposedly be. Feigned jocular self admissions, which he presumed someone like Rogers a faithful follower of that moment, was to take as a joke? Jon, the final interview with Sarge, what Sarge said, I so wish someone with writing skill took on those dark self defeat admissions of Hubbard, as given to Sarge.

did tony ortega shave his beard?

About 5 years ago I became aware of, and interested in, Hubbard and Scientology. I spent a lot on it - maybe hour or two every day studying it for half a year. You can say I was mildly obsessed, and many friends considered me mad for taking such an interest. My brain just wanted more and more, I was pulled in deeper and deeper. My main Scientology “teachers” were the two of you. I read and watched everything from you guys that I could get my hands on. It was around the time of the release Tonys book, “Little miss something...”, but before that Riviera lady made her tv show, and before that big documentary. Then I drifted out of the loop. I had read all there was, and there were few new developments in the drama. I was hoping to see Miscavige on trial and that didn’t materialize. Interest faded. I’m keen to catch up on what’s been going on in Scientology-land since then. About to press play on this video and find out. I’ll post s comment afterwards. Thanks for doing this, guys. Your work is so important, and I think it’s important that more people study Scientology. You guys are the best Scientology teachers.