Hey guys, considering the amount of info, I am sure I have made small mistakes. I'll keep this comment updated with anything I missed or got wrong. IMPORTANT: I made a mistake with the math. One side still has more souls, but the difference is closer to 500-600, not 1200. I counted something twice. 1. For the sinner's sacrifices, the scaling is 3*minute, not 30*minute. This was a simple typo. 2. The urn is another source of souls that can be worth considering. It spawns at 10 minutes initially, then every 5 minutes. It starts off at 3500 souls and scales by 1000 souls per spawn. The person who deposits the urn gets a bonus 25% souls. 3. The map is not imbalanced - it is symmetrical. However, the point I was trying to make is that each respective jungle has a side with more farm and a side with less farm. This is important to keep in mind. 4. I made a math mistake when calculating the total soul value from buildings; it's actually higher, I did x5 (dota brain) instead of x6.
Something that nobody ever brings up: charged melee spam allows you to efficiently clear the jungle camps significantly earlier than you think you can. In the early to mid game you do more DPS by spamming charged melee than you do with bullets, and that's before you even consider the fact that your melee can hit multiple units. Almost every camp has a spot you can stand where a properly aimed charged melee attack will hit 3+ units. You don't have to wait until you have lifesteal and Tesla bullets to farm jungle camps efficiently, you can start farming tier 1/2 camps pretty much the moment they spawn in.
also worth noting for early clears -- most camps have an easy way to peak them from a corner so that you can kill one mob at a time without the rest of them being able to see/hit you. You can't do it while melee-ing, so it's a slight DPS loss, but it should save you more HP per camp for your first clear or two if you're on a character/build where that's a concern.
Most characters can do it even faster if you just hold left click and punch: You will do heavy punch -> shoot one/a few shots -> heavy punch and so on. Obviously not great with for example Bebop or McGinnis but it's very efficient on most characters
Thank you, you said on stream you with make one video like this and u kept your word. I wish u the best of luck in content creating deathy, u deserve it
Urn do be a fair point, lemme add that to the pinned comment. Kills unfortunately have been reworked almost every month, and so I didn't want to touch on them until they reach a stable point, that was intentional. Good call on the urn!
So this is an interesting topic and I spent far too long messing around in Excel to see how these numbers pan out. Going by 10 minutes, the right side has 16.6% more souls than the left, but this is not accounting for the respawn time of the camps. Taking that into account, assuming you perfectly farm all camps on the map, the right side has about 19.9% more souls. This number is from 25 minutes in to account for the larger camps spawning later and that being when the large camps have already spawned 3 times, medium camps 4 times, and 4 times for the sinner's sacrifice camps. Note that despite all this, the lane minions greatly outpace neutral camps, even including the urn being taken as well. Your team should ideally get around 60% from lanes, not counting denies which would further skew the numbers towards a team that can deny.
If farmed perfectly, the order of camps by value is: Double Sacrifice > 3 Large > Single Sacrifice > Basement > Warehouse > 3 Medium/Church > Camp above Mid Boss > 1 Medium+3 Small > 3 Small. The urn has a higher value than any camp as well (not counting team wide souls). Per camp values at 10 minutes order (including a wave of minions and the urn): Double Sacrifice > 3 Large > Urn w/delivery bonus > Urn (no bonus) > Single Sacrifice > Basement > 1 Trooper Wave > Camp above Mid Boss > Warehouse > 3 Medium/Church > 1 Medium+3 Small > 3 Small.
@@phaaze3812 Its crazy because even these theoretical camp paths dont account for pots or boxes at all which can heavily sway my decision on how to path
Something that I'm struggling to find is: a good video on the path for 2-3 camps together. In the corners of the map for example, I get lost on the halls. When looking for creeps in the middle, I sometimes cant find them because they are underground, etc. That would make a great video. Some optimized routes to move from one place to the other. For example in purple, in the bottom right of the map, there is this rope -> jumpad -> super fast into the blue line. That kind of fast movement/pathing, applied to farming, is something I would appreciate for jungle. Very good content my dude.
One good thing I've been doing is to use the console command F7 and then changelevel street_test in the sandbox. That will load an empty map and it has been invaluable to learn routes in a non-stress environment.
I feel like there are almost no good paths because its rare that many camps are even up at the same time. Everybody is always farming camps. I think its best to decide based on the game state an optimal route. I often think about my path or next location while i'm killing the camp, since you usually dont have to focus too hard
I also need this, i spend multiple minutes sometimes just finding a jungle camp only to realize I should have just gone to lane because it took me so long to find...
6:03 While people probably havent explicitly talked about it I think its definitely something that people will subconciously take advantage of, not because of the extra souls, but because a majority of those souls are much further forward, most notably is the medium camp which is placed right against the middle of the lane. The terrain in the are makes is a lot easier to feel safe stealing a camp or two and getting out, while the equivalent camp on the other side is deeply recessed and effectively right next to their shop. The right side also has an extra small camp, again very easy to just pick off and run out before someone catches you.
@@extremely4195 jungle in this game is inferior to lane creeps, so to farm efficiently you need to push objectives, which means you still help the team
@@supershid464 ur acting like you have to pick one or the other. good players jungle in between waves, pushing objectives is not farming, esp when its so easy to deny the majority of souls in decent mmr lobbies
I was always underfarmed every game, i was getting stressed out because I watched all the farming guides and they told me to make a jungle path, etc. This vid actually helps me a lot, knowing that the jungles soul is imbalanced and such. Thanks again!
Love this very detailed content, this is a brand new game so everything is very foggy at the moment. Knowing these numbers let us understand what the most optimal plays are, which is a MUCH needed thing, so thank you
Good video! I’d love to see one on how to improve at landing, perhaps at different levels of focus. Last hitting Getting denies Harass when to go all in Cover Etc
I find your videos to be the best out there for the game. I use your builds on the characters you have them and watch all your general guides. That being said, i think a good video idea could be how to make your own build. I feel like at a certain point you should be trying to make your own builds as a player, but im just struggling to put together a good build as a Dynamo player primarily. Just a general idea of the things you need to think about, different choices for different scenarios you might want to have. Just talking through how you make your builds i feel like would be suuuper helpful
One tip from me, quicksilver reload and active reload are the 2 best early farming items if your hero can buy those you can start farming right then. Ideally need bullet lifesteal after some camps but healing rite and some regen item from lane can tide you over for a good amount of time
I saw some people doing and I was doing wrong. I was bringing creeps life down for my own creeps to kill, because I thought I will guarantee get the souls... I was always going so bad in lanes. I play Haze a lot, so I know that some jungle is not worth doing at first, because I will die in the beggining from the big ones or take so much time, keep this in mind optimizing your jungle farming.
I just had a game where farming was the only way to win but my team always wanted to fight one lane because the enemy team was there. To me, kills in this game dont matter until mid or later when the enemy is gone for 30 seconds. But since this is a shooter/MOBA a lot of the people playing will assume kill=win. Thank you for this video, sharing this with all my shooter minded friends coming into deadlock.
The thing with deadlock is that it's hard to judge when to farm vs when to fight, sometimes fighting oriented teams win even when they don't kill much, that's weird It's weird because teams that are grouped and fighting but not killing anyone should be punished but for some reason sometimes they are not, I haven't figured that out yet
Always prevent other team from getting a flex spot, help teammates if you’re lane is secure, farm when you guys are up. Gotta play more to understand also make sure you buy valuable items instead of junk you won’t need later
Yo yo man, how are you processing these videos? They take up a lot more space than average 15 min vids to download. Not a problem, just something you might want to look at👍 Keep up the good work
I get that "1k souls/minute" is just a rough guideline, but it is funny to give that advice while showing gameplay footage where you have 9k souls at 11 minutes.
One concept that I noticed a lot of players fall into is playing this game like a shooter/hero shooter. It's not. This game can literally be won and lost on macro alone so these farming guides should be the go-to instead of Top 0.00001% gameplay videos I see everywhere. You can win games without ever really team fighting
So, does this mean that the total amount of souls gained from a single walker is 1500 and that out of thoose 1500, 500 can be denied and therefore only giving the team 1000 souls?
One of the things I struggle with as a n00b Haze player is memorizing the map, where everything is, the best paths, etc. Is this just a thing that comes with more hours in the game, or should I be doing bot matches and studying?
Hey Deathy, love your videos. I do have a bunch constructive feedback on this video, which is very important but I think struggles to get some ideas and info across: 1. the part with the total soul numbers tables was a bit much and too early into the video IMO, I think most ppl don't want the info in that way and form, and might cause ppl to disengage with the video. 2. It was quite unclear from the map you showed of jungle camps which side has more farm. I assume the right one? also, showing numbers on both sides would be more helpful, or at least on the side the player usually sees instead of the enemy's. 3. The Shiv fights / footage around the 9 minute mark was super distracting, couldn't focus on what you are saying 😅 4. giving numbers for how much souls you should have is such a great idea, but I couldn't follow - how do I know how much souls per minute I'm doing? 1500 SPM at at 15 minute mark is so confusing, idk how to calculate that. why not give a flat number of approx. how much you should have like 20k at 15 minutes for example? also, numbers and stats are muche easier to follow when they are shown on screen.
souls per minute is a normal thing in mobas, to calculate souls per minute you do souls/minutes, so if you have 10k at 10 minutes 10000/10 = 1000 souls per minute
Personally, I didn't mind the number tables, simply because it was giving me the information I needed in a simple format. The jungle maps had number values at the bottom left and right stating how many total souls were on each side (and it was only for the enemies side, imagined it reversed for your side. plus he made a slight mathematical error, the difference is close to 600 for each side.) The shiv fight were kind of distracting, but you need some background footage to keep viewers attention while rattling off some boring but important numbers. And the spm (souls per minute) thing was saying how many souls you needed. E.g, if the goal is 1000 spm, then by the 6 minutes mark you should have over 6k souls, and if you don't, you are under farmed and need to catch up. The goal is really up to you, but you have to make sure its achievable with your character. Another example is if I'm playing someone like Infernus who has good AoE and mobility, and I set a goal for 1500 spm, then by the 14 minute mark I should have 21k souls.
does the jungle camp respawn if you leave one creep behind? could be useful if you farm the enemies side of the map and leave one alive so maybe the restart timer doesnt start?
But there are 2 basement camps on the map, both on opposite sides, which one is the more valuable side? Isn't the map just symetrical with same amount of camps?
It is symmetrical, but when you look at your own jungle, one side has more farm than the other. This isn't a balance issue, this is simply just stating "hey, on sapphire, x side has 1200 more souls than the other side at 10 minutes". Hopefully that clears things up
The "Sides" the video is referring to is only accounting for your side of the river. Because the map is, for the most part, mirrored on both sapphire/Amber (disregarding aesthetic differences and minor jungle creep placement differences)
What items are good for efficiently farming camps if you have a character that's bad at it. I mostly play Vindicta, and obviously she mostly gets souls from killing ult kills, but I don't want to be constantly forcing fights and early jungles usually take an incredibly long time with her.
Lane creeps, boxes, and the slots are a good time-to-soul ratio for anyone. But a lot of your income as vindicta should really be in team fights. Fully upgraded, assassinate gives you an extra +850 souls (the equivalent of a T3 camp) in an instant. So, you should really be farming the weaker camps so you'd be able to get to a fight faster without wasting time either finishing the larger camps, or leaving it and potentially getting it stolen from you(at least for the edge t3 camps). Or at least, that's the theory. Of course if you're behind for whatever reason, (like, behind-behind. The "last on your team, 3k souls behind" kind of behind) then obviously, getting into a team fight is liable to just feed your local enemy Kelvin/Bebop/Lash; and as such, taking the rear T2 camps is probably the best and safest idea (once you shove the wave ahead of the camps) so you could attempt to catch up before the enemy tries to push the next obj.
"in the first 10 minutes if you're hitting 800 to 1000 SPM, you're doing fantastic." Now when you actually listen you realize everyone but the Dynamo was with the benchmark. Plus seven hit 10k 40 seconds into 10 mins so he was realistically there.
Wrong, its about winning which is more often than not accomplished by the team with the greater soul value in items. From a dollars and cents standpoint, stopping them from farming is only the correct play when it creates a larger soul discrepancy than if you were to farm and vice versa. Additionally, if all youre doing is trying to choke your enemy out and not gathering resources yourself, you may find yourself easily run over by enemies that dont follow the same gameplan.
Nah if your team can spread and farm the ENTIRE map, including your the enemy side of the map, you have free claim to soul urn and can amass a HUGE soul diff. Then midboss and end.
At the end of the day the game is decided by who can destroy the objectives first. You could technically go 0/20 and still win the game (although that wouldn't be much fun) Fights happen when players trying to take an objective encounter players trying to stop them. If you really want to fight you should play a tanky character and be aggressively pushing objectives with your team and the fights will naturally come to you. Then, if you win the fight, when the enemy is dead you will naturally have down time to run between camps and push more objectives.
The correct answer is that the game is PvX. Balling up and group fighting starting from 10 min is not a good strategy, but neither is just running around jungles.
Hope zero esports comes out of the game dota 2 balancing around the the same 20 people got old. I just wanna play turbo and run around as nyx. Hope we get that here. Ranked gets boring very quickly but the rpg modes were so fun in dota 2.
You can always do whatever you want if you’re good enough, but balancing should always be a bottom down thing unless something is SUPER egregious in the lower levels. If something is just stomping low skill players, it’s a skill check issue not a balance issue. Think Seven ult or Riki in DOTA. If something is outright broken at the top level, chances are there straight up isn’t real counterplay. The former scenario should encourage you to get better, the latter just needs to be fixed by the devs
Since the soul scaling on troops is 1 per minute pre 10 minutes, does that mean souls at 9 minutes are at 85 then jump to 104 at 10 minutes? Also the building math is multiplied across for 5 players instead of 6, is that intentional (or just cuz dota lol)? Also assuming that all of the souls from buildings are shared globally, even if you confirm souls after taking a turret.
Would be better if the video is framed as being better at macro and map management. New comers either wants to be anti-mage (buying bf at 25min) wannabe or commit 24/7 team fight overwatch brain rot
Hey. You pointed out that there's more souls on one side of the map so the map is imbalanced! I don't think this is true since the map is symmetric (not mirrored!). You get this imbalanced because the map has rotational symmetry instead of being mirrored. This means that the souls that are missing on the left side is at the left bottom of the map (the one's you didn't show on the image because you said the map was mirrored). So its not which side has more souls than the other, but rather the corners. Though there's still soul imbalance since the upper right and the bottom left corner has more souls than the others. This means that you'll have more jungles near you depending on which lane you spawn on. This could also be what you meant, but if it was, it was a bit vague
The map isn't imbalanced from a vertical perspective, meaning that overall it's equal from left to right. However, on both the Sapphire and Amber side, there is one side that has significantly more souls in their OWN jungle. So you are correct in your point, but that's not the overall point I was trying to make
That scales with how many souls the team has farmed. In the early game it is less than a single wave clear. By the 100k mark a solo kill gives you around 3k souls. This is why in the laning phase you can die and still farm more souls than the person your against without even killing him. If you assist it splits the souls evenly.
The farming benchmarks you provided are pretty unrealistic to get consistently. I think a more reasonable one is breaking the 1k/min line somewhere between 14-17 minutes every game.
I think I just phrased them poorly. When I say you should hit let's say 1500 SPM, I'm talking about in the timeframe, not SPM since the beginning of the game. So from 10-20 mins, you should be aiming for 1500 SPM. To give an example, let's say you had 8k at 10m, my benchmark would put you at 23k at 20m which is fully realistic IMO. Hope this clarifies!
