Our Insanely Unethical Plan to Become Missionaries 

A therapist I had was a pastor's wife and I didn't even know until like six months in when she mentioned it off-handedly. I was pretty anti-religion at the time (I'm still an atheist but I was kind of a raging anti-theist then) and I was shocked because she had never argued with me about my criticisms of Christianity. It not only made me raise my standards for healthcare professionals (as she told me, "I'm here to help you achieve the life YOU want to live"), but it also made me realize I could have intimate conversations with deeply religious people without it turning into an argument.

Several people have proudly told me about their successes evangelizing. Prisoners, kids, grieving people, immigrants, and so on. They go after people who are struggling with other problems so they're not able to resist.

Exmormon here, turns out your channel ended up doing a LOT more good for me as a Mormon in Provo Utah than your mission ever would have!

Just another assurance you have an international audience :) - well wishes frm an Indian atheist

A movie producer could option this as a Mormon horror series. You’d follow a Mormon protagonist through several episodes, watching him get more suspicious, until episode 6 where he breaks into his therapist’s office, and while he’s riffling through documents with a flashlight, he says “oh my God, he’s…a CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY”

I am glad that my therapist is an atheist. mainly because i have ptsd related to religious trauma.

Wow! That is amazing that you stayed together with the transition from Christianity to atheism. I was engaged to a Christian girl when I was about 20 and when I became an atheist it ended our relationship.

I went to a Christian university and had a Christian counselor there, and was deconverting at the time, but he did what any good professional counselor should - listened to me, validated what I was going through, saw that holding on to my faith was detrimental to my mental health, and fully supported me when I announced I was no longer a Christian. This is the model of what a Christian counselor should be like - realising that Christianity doesn't work for everyone, especially if it's causing serious depression and anxiety.

At my Christian high school there was a mandatory class on how to convert Mormons for every sophomore. We learned how to pretend to be interested in becoming Mormons so we could rope them into a Bible study and then epicly own Mormonism with Bible facts and logic

It's interesting that you describe these as coincidences, but these guys were at your college because they knew there would be a lot of individuals in the position you were in. That's not a coincidence that they then met someone of the demographic they were actively searching for. Edit to add: a few people in the comments are suspecting foul play on the part of the recruiters and that they'd secretly been told to approach Drew or even that the only space by them was specifically kept clear for Drew. I don't think that's the case at all. I'm pretty sure their meeting was not some compiracy. I'm just trying to say that these people came to an environment relatively rich in people like Drew specifically looking for people like him. How many people did they talk to that day that had different majors? I would guess a lot. It's not really a surprise that one person they spoke to had what they were looking for.

In high school I was an agnostic. I asked a Christian if it was okay to lie to people to "save" them and get them to turn to Jesus. She said yes. That has colored my views of Christians who believe in conversion ever since.

Everytime when I´m watching a video from you, I´m a bit more relieved that I was born to a mostly atheistic/ open minded family.

This is extremely interesting. This goes to show how susceptible we are to the power of suggestion. The fact that we're consistently looking for things to explain what we don't understand in addition to our emotions makes it hard to clearly navigate such situations. I'm glad you made it out okay.

Just another assurance you have an international audience. Best wishes from a Turkish agnostic.

As an atheist who was raised secular in a community where acceptance of religious diversity was the accepted norm, the stories you two tell of your religious past are mind-blowing. I really appreciate how you do your best to explain the emotions and thoughts behind these experiences. It really helps me to try to understand believers and to be compassionate and empathetic. I remember learning about missionaries as a kid and thinking that was an old historical practice from hundreds of years ago that no one did anymore. I think I was about 13 or so when I discovered that missionaries are still very much a thing. And I was shocked because it seemed so immoral.

Oh man. I do not miss the days of second guessing every impulsive thought to test if it was From The Lord. I'm much more at ease now that I understand that coincidences happen 😂

Glad you both "escaped" religion together. Sometimes having a religious partner can make it even harder to leave because you feel confirmation bias by your partner and just keep going.

woah woah woah, reading the description before watching and I see you planned on coming to Utah to convert Mormons?? As an exmormon living in Utah, It's wild to think of things flipped on their head like that. I can't even imagine trying to convert Mormons as a missionary for another faith. I'm really intrigued to watch this now!

I'm ex-mormon. It's always fun to hear tales from the mormon-evangelical interface from the other end. Thanks for sharing this story!

I am a Christian and I just want to say that I appreciate your videos and your channel. It’s always good for me to watch your videos so I can have an open mind to both sides, religion and atheism. much love for you all ❤️

Drew, Taylor, thank you so much for sharing this; it is inspiring. I am an ex-evangelical atheist in England (my particular poison was a group called the Navigators, which I encountered in my student days). I remember being told a (surely mythological) story of the reaction of a person being proselytized: "If I believed what you guys believe, I'd crawl over broken glass to tell everyone". This fable was used to encourage us to be bold in our evangelism and (I guess) not to worry too much about the ethics of how we we were being taught to behave. I am so glad that you found your way safely to a better way to treat other people. Whatever we believe, basic respect for humanity requires that we not manipulate or exploit the vulnerabilities of others.

You can see how healthy, mature, loving and respectful their relationship is. It's beautiful to see a couple who have gone through multiple life changes and stages together looking back and learning from each other and their experiences, who they used to be and who they are now. It's such positive modeling for other young couples finding themselves at a crossroads in their own lives and trying to figure out whether or not to move forward together or separately and whether or not to stay in the religion of their culture and upbringing or to strike out and find their own way. Good on you both for sharing your experiences!

Man, this reminds me of how I thought I was “called” to missions a few years ago when I was 17 (deconstruction came not long after, thankfully)

Ohhh I'm early! Can't wait for this story. I have regular moments where I go: how did I think this behaviour was normal and moral when I was still a Christian?

Hey Drew! I just wanted to write and let you know how much you helped me in a very difficult time in my life. Your simple decency and understanding of both sides helped me so much. Thank you!

That you've majored in counselling psychology probably explains why you are always so calm with really not nice people. I always admired how you didn't really trashtalk them but took you time to explain your point calmly!

I think confirmation bias is a major part of all religious experience. I myself was into occult mysticism for many years and I was always seeing proof of my beliefs everywhere I looked. I now realize I was looking for them, so when I found them it seemed divine.

This really just nails how _desperate_ evangelicals are for people to believe their nonsense, regardless of the ethics or legality of the method. So proud of you both for sharing this story.

I had a friend, her family were devoted catholics, but when she got married she became Christian, as her husband was Christian. I lost contact with her after she got married, but I knew she was studying to be a psychologist. I kept enough contact with her through social media to know she had graduated, and was still married. I remember one day she posted something about how God condemned homosexuality, and I remember her post just blew my mind. I couldn't understand how someone who had college education and was a psychologist had that mentality. I remember thinking how I felt she would not be a good psychologist if she let her religious beliefs get on the way of her degree Edit: Sorry I didn't make it clear, her beliefs against homesexuality changed once she made the change in religion. That’s why in my head I made the distinction, but didn't explained it on the comment. That's also why I was surprised/shocked about her post, I didn't know she had those new believes as our friendship also kind of drifted apartat once she made the change on religion

I was a Mormon for 45 years, believe me it’s not easy to de convert, that have invested time, money, and emotions into their religion. The majority of Mormons are all in.

The most interesting thing I realized about your story is that one could argue that another higher power actually saved you from going down that path and used that time period to teach you some kind of lesson. That shows just how scarily versatile that way of thinking truly is.

If I had a therapist that shared religious beliefs with me I would run screaming.

Thanks for the insights. When I was a Christian, I didn't have a sense that God had a plan for my life, but the people around me did. If I asked them what it was like or how they knew, I didn't get a coherent answer. I think what you've said explains things more than they ever did.

I've been out of evangelicalism for almost two years now and I still sometimes struggle to share about some of the things I did while in the church because looking back, I feel so ethically corrupt, but I had no idea the entire time I was in it. Thank you for sharing more of your story, it helps me shed off a little bit more of the guilt I feel for the things I did for the Lord

As an ex mormon missionary, it would have been interesting to watch this play out as a fly on the wall. Later (after my deconversion), I was in therapy around 2019-ish. I have no idea of what, if any, religious views my therapist had (as it should be).

That seemingly good people could _ever_ believe that the all-powerful, all-loving, all-GOOD Creator of the Universe would want them to _manipulate and mislead people in his name_ is one of the most insidious and under-discussed problems with modern Christianity.

I used to be one of those people with a "god of coincidences." I became deeply convinced that God had told me who my future husband would be... and then that guy went on to marry someone else. Lol. I didn't lose my faith at that moment, but like you I started become reaaaally skeptical. It was the beginning of the end, you might say.

After a decade some of doubt, I determined to skip going to Mass. I remember waiting for a consequence, some incident that would reveal what a horrible sin I had just committed - this after numerous other sins probably equally as grievous. Many days later I was struck by the realization of a sudden sense of freedom from guilt. Six decades later, I have to smile at what I see now as a childish & somewhat narcissistic worldview that was part of the entire “god cares about YOU” myth that was then such a controlling part of my life. Makes me daily aware of how easily we hairless chimps can fall into delusion.

meanwhile, in a parallel universe: Drew: "..and that's how I became a missionary, left my girlfriend before the wedding not allowing the devil to tempt be through her not to go on that trip, and met my new wife!"

My walk with God is not found in a church. I have a personal relationship with God and it always keeps me striving to be a better person.

As an ex Christian, I used to look at literally any stupid coincidence as a sign from God. I desperately wanted to believe he was in every detail of my life because otherwise, it meant I was utterly alone. Due to my love for learning, I started studying probability, cause and effect, and the sciences. Here is what I learned that could apply to this specific situation. 1. “They had two open seats” yes and they were also asking to mission to Mormons in an unethical way so people were probably avoiding them. This unintentionally drives the probability of your meeting up. 2. “We were in a place that we were looking for the next thing” yes, that is why they were setting up Ice cream socials at the end of the school year. They are looking for people who desire to know what’s next. Same reason the military recruits out of senior high school classes. This intentionally drives the probability up and the fact they pointed out that it was God who lead you their and not that they set up specifically to find people in transition points I say is very manipulative. 3. “They were looking for therapists.” Yes. So they went to a school with a therapy program and contacted the professor to make sure you would go. A random coincidence would have been if they went to a coffee shop and saw a person who was just fired looking for a new therapy job. And even then that could be influenced by if there is a large therapy hospital nearby. But to say a bunch of carefully laid plans is the result of Gods influence is bullshit and I’m glad you got out. The more I learned of probability and cause effect models. The more I saw it wasn’t Gods hand guiding me. It was past events that resulted in the current situation, and the probability that I would recognize it these circumstances went up because I was always watching for them.

I'm guessing I'm one of the few Christians here, and I'm so glad you were able to get away from these dangerous people and tactics. I'm so sorry that so many people have suffered so much under Christian institutions, and I hope more people can escape and became atheists or something else or also Christian of course, but in an actually healthy and loving manner. Thanks for sharing this!

I think a large part of why so many people want to believe in a Higher Power is that most human beings, psychologically, are ill prepared to deal with uncertainty. Most people desire solid answers for the big questions in life.

This was insightful. I learnt about the oppressive nature of missions compared to our traditional belief system where you didn't need to worship the god of your ancestors and I was intrigued. The speaker said a religion that needs to recruit followers is fundamentally not a freeing faith. I stopped evangelizing to people after that lecture.

GMS: "So there is a downside to thinking in this way. To making meaning out of coincidences when you don't necessarily have 'proof' that the mechanism behind those coincidences is really anything other than random chance." Stevie: "When you believe in things that you don't understand, you suffer."

Yeah-- I went through a phase where I kept seeing "signs" that I was supposed to move from my home state to a southern state to pursue my "music career". A few medication changes later, I realized I had just been kind of hypomanic and having "delusions of reference". Meanwhile, I had persuaded my elderly parents to sell their house and make this big move, uprooting all of our lives. It didn't turn out terrible, but it was a big lesson to me. "Signs", "meant to be", " soul mate", "chosen"--- bad chemicals and bad ideas. The fact that so many terrible people think it was a sign from God that they won their election, and now should do any demented thing their leaders tell them to do is frightening.

RU-vid had some funny algorithms to put this in front of me. I briefly watched another video from you and appreciated your demeanor and approach. I am a Christian and I am a licensed professional counselor. I have too many clients who have experienced harm at the hands of religion. This would have been so unethical and a horrible abuse of your power. I’m so glad you chose not to go. That said, I believe my work in loving people in therapy is because of my world view that came from and still comes from my belief in Jesus. I intentionally kept only one piece of religious symbolism in my office for myself to remember, but it’s typically never addressed and I’m never there to proselytize. I’m just there to follow that second greatest command to love others. If that leads them to loving God, fantastic. If it leads to them loving others, wonderful. If it leads to them loving themselves, well… that’s one of those primary goals. Thanks for sharing your story here. It’s a great reminder to never push my personal beliefs over professional ethics.

It is the people that realize that randomness and coincidence is part of the human experience, but then go onto using that knowledge to take advantage of those that still do attribute coincidence to a higher being, that are the true scum of the earth. That to me is what the real problem of religion and spiritualism is in as concise of a summary as I can put it. I hope it makes sense! Lol. I'm glad you shared this story, it takes some serious bravery and honesty to do so.

I'm a 54yrs old atheist from down under, I love your channel and admire the important work you do 'saviors of sanity'.

I'm really glad no therapist I've ever had was like that. My first therapist when I was 16 was actually a pretty devout christian man, but he never brought up his religious beliefs once, even when I was complaining about religion. I really appreciate health care worker's ability to be compassionate and completely unbiased with clients

I'm Pagan now, but was a Born Again in a very Charismatic Church back in High School. During that time, I developed a love for Theology, learned the importance of consistently asking "Why" with regards to one's beliefs/spirituality, and had experience with several different varieties of prostelytizing. Back after my Sophomore year, I spent the summer (of 85) touring with a Christian Music Ministry called The Continental Singers. Their witnessing training involved learning around 1000 verses broken up into about 8 categories (knowing the verse for quoting, and at least some idea of context) and that we should treat the folks we witnessed to like we were talking to friends...Show them respect and ask serious questions when they told you about their beliefs and expect the same when you told them about yours. Don't go the "you're damned to hell/being deceived" route. The next summer, my church (Christ Community in Alamorgordo NM) sent the youth group down to Mexico to witness at the World Cup games. Needless to say, their missionary training was....different, much more aggressive. About a week before we left, the youth pastor took us to the mall to "practice" our proselytizing. We broke up into teams of 2 and scattered. My partner and I encountered a couple coming out of a store and engaged them. She talked with us, while her husband went off to a nearby GNC to grab a few things. Turns out, they were Jehovah's Witnesses; she had recently converted when they got married. I was engaged with talking with her, and failed to notice my "partner" had disappeared... Until the two of us were suddenly surrounded by the whole of the youth group and the tone changed. Everyone was condemning her "cult" and pushing Jesus on her, not letting her get a word in edgewise. I even noticed the youth Pastor a short distance off looking "pleased" at how the youth group was behaving. I remember looking up and asking God to get her out of there, and I distinctly heard "That's why you're there" in response. So...I started defending her and her beliefs, quoting scriptures right back at them. At some point, her Hubby came out of the store and went from 0 to pissed off in an instant. Long story short, I threw my arm over her shoulder and steered her towards him, and then the three of us got the hell out of there. Once outside the mall, he started "venting" and I began apologizing profusely for my youth groups bad behavior. He looked right at me and said "You have nothing to apologize for. You were the only Christ like example I saw in there." Needless to say, that definitely "soured" my relationship with both the Youth Group and my Youth Pastor. It was also a contributing factor to my leaving the church (but not my Faith, at least not then) about 6 months later. (Figuring out I had turned to a Pagan path occurred a couple years later.)

You guys are adorable and I love that y'all are in the same place regarding christianity! I started my deconstruction a year ago and telling my wife was one of the most challenging things I've ever done! It's a delicate situation now, with our kiddos and how to navigate things like night time prayers...but we actually support each other really well, while neither of us try to change the other. Anyway, I do hope at some point she and I'll have the same conversations you guy do...remembering when and laughing!

Can I just say that you two are so lucky to have each other and y'all are inspirational as a couple.

I looked at coincidences in my life a very similar way before my beliefs about gods changed. If there was a 'story' for my life and a god was in control of all things, then everything could be a sign. It was easy to form a narrative around circumstances and things that led to other things must be 'part of the story'. Thank you for sharing; this has a lot of great examples of how misinterpretation isn't just a harmless mistake. It can actually lead to some real world harm.

Ex-mormon living in Provo rn, i found this absolutely hilarious because I knew how I used to look at those missionaries of other faiths. Thank you for these videos, i love hearing you and Taylor process these things together. I'm in a mixed-faith relationship and it helps to see other couples have these healthy reflections and discussions.

Thank you for sharing your experience! I also have Mater degree in counseling psychology and also used it in my pastoral practice to proselytize.

When I was still a Christian, back in college I was going to be a student missionary volunteer high school teacher in the south pacific. The only request I had was for there to be at least 1 other American teacher. When I got to Hawaii I was told my island (Chuuk) wouldn't have any Americans because everyone else dropped out. I worked on changing islands to be with other Americans, but before I did the Chuuk principal told me that it was God's will that I come to his island and that I was disobeying like Jonah by changing islands. I ended up teaching for a year in the marshal islands with friends that I still am close with (a few are atheist now too ;), but I never quite forgot the manipulation that was being done there by invoking GODS WILL.

Interesting. I think it's in our nature to look for meaning where none exists. Coincidences can provide a framework for us to try to psychologically impose order on chaos. That's important, because for many, the randomness of the universe is terrifying.

I've been in evangelical christianity like drew (though not as fundie) and I can tell you I do understand that mentality of the desperation to save souls. The rhetoric of evangelical churches does a very good job at making you think that this is a matter of life and death and what is earthly, secular morality or "live and let live" in the face of "if these people don't accept the truth they will literally burn forever?" I would rather someone hate me and potentially live than they die with us on good terms, and I think a lot of people think like this (hell, that was the secular advice given to me if a friend is considering un-aliveing themselves), and evangelical pastors exploit that to all hell. Now as an atheist I don't think it would ever work, it's a massive violation of trust and you're literally just betraying and exploiting vulnerable people who (in this case) Are Paying You to help them. It also makes me a bit less trusting of people in general because I know that even if they're not common, these people do exist, which really just hurts the christian goal overall. Fear and desperation is a hell of a drug though.

As an atheist all my life I find these stories fascinating as well as scary.

As a former Mormon, I can say that I am glad that you did not go down that path simply because I know, from personal experience, how defensive Mormons can be about their faith. That kind of manipulation might easily have backfired and caused a lot of people to cling even more desperately to their faith. Also, I can totally relate to the realization that what was previously perceived as divine intervention could simply be random circumstance. I remember slowly coming to that realization as I grew up and heard people share stories about experiences that often seemed so mundane and with a hasty conviction that it was all God's will even though there didn't seem to be any kind of confirmation of that. I began to realize that people jumped to the conclusion out of the same kind of eagerness that I felt to have spiritual experiences and see God acting in my life. Put simply: it was confirmation bias (though I didn't know the term back then). I slowly began to doubt other people's convictions about miracles and divine intervention and God's will.

So much of this story resonates with me. My wife and I were a little older than you - mid 20's when we felt it was our call to shut down our whole lives and move to central Europe to be missionaries. Our model was slightly less unethical than what you were considering - but once I had started deconstructing my beliefs (during my time as a missionary), I realized that having a hidden agenda for all my friendships (converting them), I couldn't do it anymore. It felt so gross and dishonest.

The more I see the content you guys make together the more I'm surprised that your relationship was able to last through your deconversion. I'm so proud of you guys for freeing your minds from all the childhood indoctrination, and so glad you were on the same page throughout that and that when you weren't, it didn't break your relationship.

Holy Cow! It's The Wifey!! Your wife is absolutely beautiful sir!! I completely understood what you guys went through. This was mirroring my experience but in a different setting. I felt God wanted me to go on mission. Paid with check. God called me to he a police officer, canceled mission trip and check. The entire ministry that I was involved with, pretended I didn't exist, became rude, and they should had just spit on me while they were at it. That was my first big crack. Shouldn't they had been happy that I was wanting to pursue what God had called me to be, something as noble as a police officer? In the early 90's police were thought of as God's chosen soldiers marching onward for christ, swaring an oath to abolish evil through the righteousness of the law! This was in 95-96. My 2nd major crack at that time, was when I began learning about a lot of officers personal lives. MANY have done and were doing their wife dirty, by either abuse (physically mentally & or emotionaly) or having affairs and or both. These officers were just as crooked in their duties. On the outside the spiritual people praise them. I heard one preacher praise a specific officer for answers God's call to righteousness, then evoked Paully Pockets scripture, and I began seeing something entirely different, that profoundly changed me, even today at 44. That their holy spirit, and magical beliefs are tailored around their beliefs. Why didn't the "holy spirit" testify that this person was jaded and crooked. Christianity became a wite picket fence belief. The better they present as the model family, and hide their inner flaws, the more praise and recognition they got; while the poor people who truly were trying their best, would get swept aside and counted as nothing. Sorry for rambling.

Ah yes the casual "I want to save people from hell" brainwashing, and pasta with meatballs for the lady

"I think people would be very surprised, like how would he think that that's ever okay, but it goes to show how much religion can color your perception of ethical issues" - so well said.

Yo! You two are great and a lot of your videos are hitting home! Long story short my mom was told she would never have more kids after my sister was born. 6 years later my twin bro and I arrived. We grew up with my mom telling us that we werent supposed to be here so God had big plans for us. I lived my life to about 30 years old making every decision based on "I wonder if this is god's plan", or "Iwonder if this is the partner god has for me".. Now at 40 I'm still deprogramming all the trash that christianity taught me. thanks for your videos the both of you! Keep it up

Damn, I hoped from the title that you planned on going to become missionaries for a holiday and a chance to covertly spread the light of clear thinking to people in need.

Since I was a kid I’ve always questioned what it meant to “hear God’s voice.” I’ve always asked what it sounded like? What it felt like? How could I know that it was god speaking to me and not just my own thoughts? And the response I always got was “you just know.” To this day Im not really sure if I’ve just never heard God’s voice or if I’ve just never fallen into the trap of believing my own thoughts to be Gods voice.

The fear of not having a purpose anymore is what keeps a lot of evangelicals in it.

‘God’s purpose for one’s life’ is actually a call on one’s ego. This is one of the reasons it’s so difficult to use critical thinking when dealing with religion. People want to feel they have a purpose. They want to feel useful and rewarded. The day I realized this about myself was the day I finally broke from religion. Being able to face one’s own ego and deal with that is really hard.

Hey, Drew. I'm glad you were able to come out of your experience in a positive way. I have found many times in my life that things often work out without any real consequences and that it doesn't really have anything to do with God. Even without trying, things tend to work out in a way that isn't usually negative, even though we might sometimes see it as being negative or even expect it to be. I'm not religious so I don't believe in God, but I do sometimes feel like I am guided in my life in that the Universe itself is trying to tell me something and this brings me comfort. Not everything is going to work out the way we hope it will, but it will work out what it needs to. It's fruitless to worry that you might disappoint the Universe in some way because that won't happen. Don't feel guilty for making mistakes, it's how we learn. We are guided in our lives, but we are not forced and no one will be disappointed if we misstep on our journey. We are not perfect and shouldn't try to be. All we can do is live the best we know how and everything will work out in the end because it always does.

In the UK the vast majority of people are atheists - in fact even the term ‘atheist’ has very little meaning now here - It’s just the norm. I find it so difficult to understand the social pressure you have to be Christian in the US. Having worked around the word I actually find Christian fundamentalism as scary as Muslim fundamentalism.

"Insanely unethical" yup, precisely as described. Enjoyable and educational video as always.

Wow thanks for sharing. Love from South Africa 🇿🇦

I really appreciate how candid you both are! Much respect ✊🏾 ❤

Loved this. Made me think of the way people who's living depends on church (priests for example) explain everything that happens. They could say something like "God actually presented you with 2 paths, one is love and the other is passion. You chose your partner over something important and thats what god wanted for you."

Even in religion,its a competition.

At about 14:05 or so, Drew you commented on putting your faith on the backburner ( paraphrasing), but also saying you felt guilty. As an Episcopalian/ Methodist growing up and never forced to or pushed to make a faithful decision, this is good. Coming from a more scientific background and environment, even sitting on what you feel are facts until you are able to work through whether they are or are not is exactly what you should expect of yourself. You determine your faith. Be it a higher being, science or yourself. Oh and do not forget those still struggling, if God knows and created everything, God created science and disbelief in themselves.

Enjoyed your incredibly productive and civil discussion with Dr. Sean McDowell. It was great to get to know you better and learn your story. I enjoy your channel too. Your voice is very calming. Cameras always give me the wrong impression. When I started watching your videos, I got the impression you were a tall, wide-framed person. I was shocked to learn you weren’t tall. I’m a short man so now I have hope. If I want to grow taller I only need to start a RU-vid Channel! I’m looking forward to more Genetically Modified Skeptic content. You’re doing great work.

You both rock! I remember when I tried to convince a fellow Christian that their version of Christianity was wrong and to switch to my correct version. It was quite the eye-opening experience.

I can completely relate to this because I was pressured by church leaders to think I was called to go to my denominations Bible college which I ended up spending three years in and hating every second of mainly because I felt guilty that to not do so I would not to be in God's will. I'm so glad I ended up seeing through all of that as like you said making a narrative out of various coincidences and also intentional suggestion by church leaders.

I went to a therapist who presented himself as not a conversion therapist at my parents’ request not long after I came out to them. He was so subtle but I started to see the cracks that made it clear he was trying to guide me towards celibacy. The final straw was when he gave me a book and I read the first 3 pages before realizing it was fully promoting conversion therapy ideology.

Whoever came up with the "burn in hell for eternity" bit was a genius. It permits so much unethical stuff in the name pf saving souls.

This is VERY much a “the goal justifies the means”- way of thinking, and it makes me sick to my stomach. I grew up in a missionary home, mostly Africa, and was thaught to be so proud of that “legacy” (of being a part of a selfless group that spends their lives trying to save others, forgoing luxury etc..) Growing up I have obviously had to awaken to a very different legacy: unmentionable horrors (physical, spiritual, psychological, national and cultural,) inflicted by “missionaries” upon others in order to make them believe/obey/surrender to their own religious claims. Although the ministry I grew up in have never (as far as I know) used these types of tactics, the entire concept has truly soured for me. A part of me feels responsible; it is people like me (or at least as earlier version of me) that become missionaries who are entranced with the idea of “saving souls for eternity” that they do not realize, or just fail to care, that they are destroying people in the process. I’m a lot like Drew in some ways: I grew up being told it was my calling to become a missionary myself, and absolutely believed these adults! I am relatively well-spoken, and I enjoyed developing my theology before I eventually deconstructed. Now I enjoy studying religions from an outsiders perspective using historical-critical thinking. I NEVER thought I would end up leaving my faith. I am so glad I have had the courage to take my own true beliefs seriously and “follow the narrow path” out of the Christian culture I grew up in. I would call that a narrower, scarier and more painful path than it would have been to stay within the Christian crowd, and deliberately ignored these types of manipulative tactics in order to fit the status quo.

I always wondered if my insistence on making sure my therapists were completely secular in their practice was just paranoia. Nope. Not paranoia. Though it's undoubtedly scary, thank you for sharing this story.

Thanks, again, Drew. Seems like Taylor is the perfect partner. Y'all keep up the great work; it is very much appreciated. Cheers.

When I was younger I truly believed that Atheists were people who hated God. Now I just see them as normal people who don't believe in the same thing as me, and that is ok.

My physical doctor and former therapist shared a front office space. My physical doctor, who is not the best but there isn't much choice in my town, has the message 'have a blessed day' on her phone messages and has crosses hanging in her exam rooms. I think this was partly her response to healthcare for the poor coming to her profession, something I've noticed as a low income patient is a lot of resentment there, but I digress: Although I knew my therapist could share my personal info with my medical doctor, I suddenly found what I was talking about in therapy coming back to me as nagging suggestions from my doctor. I listened to this a few times and politely asked her not to pray for me, I'd prefer standard medication instead. If only my Christian doctor was a nice person who valued everyone but since I'm single, female, unapologetically (but politely..) Pagan, and ask questions about my healthcare, I get the impression I'm a particular target now who has been blacklisted as some sort of lost cause by my medical doctor. She often hints that I'm actually malingering and don't need special medication. Surprisingly is not a particular problem as I remind her I have another doctor called an oncologist that can help me if when she doesn't want to.

It was very brave to discuss so openly how you were going to go down a path of unethical and abusive behaviour. I think people want to believe the world is in two categories, pure good people, and abusive monsters. When sometimes there are those who can be pushed down a path like this of not understanding their actions are wrong, especially when given religious upbringings and no pushback. It’s also very interesting to hear about the past the two of you had when here in England I’ve never met someone as heavily religious as it seems like there is such a large amount of in the US. My family are christian but literally never discuss it, and even when it was involved growing up at school none of my peers took it that seriously. I never myself believed in it at all. But you two help me understand this background and how someone ends up as missionaries like you were.

It’s so good to see you guys so clearly explaining where the religious righteous folk go wrong. And it’s the same for all religions. Hit on the vulnerable to grow your flock. That’s why teaching god stories to young children is, in my view, actually a crime. Especially when fairy tales are installed in young children, they will have a hard time unbelieving the concept of an almighty being and nonsense like that. Example is Cosmic Sceptic who sometimes still wakes up thinking hell exists. It’s cruel.

Drew & Taylor. The opposite of Paul & Morgan. I love hearing your old Christian stories! ❤

Well, I was a believing Mormon when I found your channel, and I thank whatever I'm trying to replace God with for people like you (and many others) for helping me to see why Mormonism (and other religions) is so damaging.

Wow. Just wow. A long time ago, my plan was to get a PhD in clinical psych, then a ThD and either be a pastor or Christian therapist. That is, a therapist for Christians with that doctrine as a base for some therapies. Looking back, I can see how problematic that would have been, but I never thought it would or should be used as a vehicle for evangelism. My intent was just to make it a part of ministry. Over the years, I have met people who have used the services of such therapists and the results have been mixed, including some definite tragedies. As you can imagine, it's a stepping stone for conversion therapy which, in my view, is akin to torture. I abandoned that path because of my skepticism and personal issues that are antithetical to Southern Baptist doctrine (I'm gay and I much rather live life authentically than bow down to a myth). It's a bit scary to think that anyone would find planting psychologists/therapists as agents of proselytization a good or ethical idea. That's beyond unethical - it's cult behavior.

So glad that your inherent skepticism kept you from going down a dark path. Therapy is a beautiful and powerful thing, but many Christians I grew up around found it suspicious. In light of that, it’s horrendously natural to try and manipulate it for their own ends. I’m grateful that you’re both willing to tell your stories.

I remember as a kid being encouraged to start looking for God speaking to me through seemingly random things, like billboards, or bits of dialogue on the TV, or other little mundane things. I tried to do that but I wasn't ever able to get past wondering "is this a coincidence? If I start ignoring the part of me that tells me this is just a coincidence will I go crazy?" One time in Sunday school we were supposed to share some of these instances of God speaking to us, and I had to make one up and I was ashamed. But I didn't believe in it, so I stopped doing it.

How do you make someone doubt Mormonism but still convert them to Evangelical christianity? Mormonism is a bit whacky but it's not that much more unbelievable than evangelical christianity.

Having left a 25-year ministry, I sought a counselor. I don’t like talking about my beliefs with Christians, mostly out of respect for them. In my town, it’s difficult to find a non-Christian counselor. I found someone with a PhD from a state school. In our first session, I told him my story, and he invited me to his church. Ugh.

I absolutely love that yall totally look like your both leaders at like a local protestant church, makes sense since you met in such a Christian environment.

Jokes on you, I'm a former Mormon in Utah and you've help deconvert me! It WAS God's will for you to be a missionary to me, an atheist missionary!