Paper Mario: The Origami King Retrospective and Review - ScionVyse 

The creative limitations Nintendo has been imposing on the Paper Mario series can also be seen throughout the entirety of the Mario series. Most notably, when the generic characters and story of Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam lead to the death of its RPG series.

If half of this game wasn't dragged down by yet another poorly designed combat system I'm willing to bet old and new fans alike would've celebrated it. Had they made this game fully real time combat like SPM or Zelda, it could've been genuinely great. Had they brought back the old battle system, it would've stood next to TTYD as one of the best in the series. But, in the words of Arlo, "why would they give you something good, when they can give you something new."

They're so close to getting it perfect. If they use the exploration and visuals from the new games and add the RPG elements and partners from the first two games then they'll hit a home run.

In my opinion the best way to mix story book and craft aesthetic for the series is a pop up scratch book design that way you can mix the two. Also your channel is so underrated and the level of quality is so good.

Man, there is nothing trippier than watching the ending of this video in the aftermath of the Thousand Year Door remake.

All I can say is, as someone who loves this game and thinks it’s MUCH more than just “Sticker Star 3” or whatever, this was a good honest video about why you don’t personally don’t like this game and that I can genuinely respect. You’re not forcing others to share your opinion nor are you telling people that like the game that they’re “wrong”, you’re just simply giving your personal thoughts and opinions and why this game didn’t appeal to you and I truly respect and admire that. It’s very rare to find a long analysis video covering this game that’s actually RESPECTFUL and not SPITEFUL towards those that actually LIKE it and for that I give extreme kudos to you.

PMOK is my first PM. In a vacuum, I think it’s a solid 8/10 game. The ring system was tedious, but I liked the setting/world and story. Maybe I’d feel differently if I’d played the older PM games.

I had played this game while I was facing a serious depression from the COVID 19 lockdown and I didn’t have much to expect as I dropped my nerdy autismo Mario RPG phase when I was seventeen years old and I was pretty much snapping at strangers online with pent up anger from being isolated. I had cried uncontrollably twice playing this game, the first time with Bobby blowing up the boulder and the ending with the characters lifting the lanterns into the sky. There was something in it that had hurt me when it came to the outcome of the characters and what they had faced. If COVID never happened and I played this game when we weren’t isolated and forced to stay indoors, then I would have reacted differently and been more like “Well that was depressing”, but the timing of when the game came out is probably what had hurt me internally. The best way that I can put it is that it’s like Ghostbusters 2 being a film set in New York and released before 911 being more timeless than dark destruction heavy films set in New York because of it’s story being about the restoration of faith in the people of New York, the case here being that Origami King was released during COVID 19 and it took on unintended meanings in its environments, its characters’ decisions and its ending.

1:02:52 Actually, writing on Origami is considered a big Faux-Pas, which is why Ollie took it as such a big slight. I think it's kinda clever, though I do agree that it's still a stupid motivation for your big villain.

its not old school like the first two, and its definitely a sequel to SS and CS, but it has a lot going for it those two don't. i think i line up exactly with arlo on this one.

sad that you didnt like the visuals that much in origami king,, i think its the best in the whole series but i understand :(

i started this franchise with Super Paper Mario when I was little and then Paper Mario 64 on the Wii Eshop and Sticker Star when I was little too, so I feel rather nostalgic for all three games, and even trough that I have to admit Sticker Star has a LOT of flaws and whilst Color Splash certainly improved but didn't fix it all, I loved and still do love that game because I don't hate Sticker Star as much as the fans who grew up with only the first two, and I can definetly see why you wouldn't like those games if you grew up with only the originals, I put Origami King up with Super Paper Mario as my third favorite game. I think Origami King was fantastic, but it's a fact that it doesn't match the original two, but I hope they move forward and shaft the dumb rule, because I know Intelligent systems has proved by this game, that if they had no limitation, they could make a game that might top the 2 originals.

Mario had almost every gaming genre covered and Paper Mario was supposed to be it's quintessential coverage for RPG. But then the direction it's going now, the RPG is long gone. And Mario & Luigi superstar saga was also another amazing RPG but that's gone too. Luckily we still have Ubisoft's Mario+Rabbids to fill this void and that game is a masterpiece.

31:08 I feel like it's more of a philosophical guilt because these bob-omb's lives are in your hands they are more willing to sacrifice themselves in order to protect the ship and if you miss a single airplane that is a life wasted so your mission is to make sure that all these guys have a good impact

This has got to be one of my favorite games ever, the ost was amazing, I loved the aesthetic, I love playing games to completion so this game has that down, the story was very nice and I liked the writing in the game! Im one of those fans who played this game first in the series and then played the earlier ones later like the original or super. I liked all of them! so I'll be sure to watch the rest of this retrospective series! keep up the good work!

In regards to Bobby's sacrifice/the ethics of weaponizing generic Bob-ombs in the shmup segment: Yes, Mario and Olivia mourn Bobby, but he doesn't want to be mourned. From his perspective AS a Bob-Omb, this is the choice he's making: he's found something valuable enough in life-- his new friends-- to warrant making the ultimate sacrifice, which to a Bob-Omb is the highest honor and basically WHY they live. He goes out with a smile, knowing his life's purpose is fulfilled, and that his one shot made such an impact that it led to Mario saving the kingdom. With that in mind, yes, all of the Bob-Ombs in Bowser's Castle were presumably individuals, each with their own stories and personalities, but they're united by the same goal: to make their explosion count. I would assume based on that Bob-Omb "culture" that each one of those guys found fulfillment in being even a little bit of help towards undoing Bowser's folding and dethroning Olly. Like Bobby, they've all chosen to sacrifice themselves for this one moment without regret.

I dunno, I feel like Olivia could have just wished "I wish all origami folded by Ollie in the last [however long the game lasted] would be unfolded" or something like that, but whatever her sacrifice was better than Kersti and Huey just coming back because like what you said.

TOK is my second most fav game in the PM series

If the indie devs to bug fables can replicate the charm, characters, story and battle system thats of pm ttyd had and build on it while offering the same features and more than there is no excuse on nintendo part. With Kensuke Tanabe trying to reinvent the wheel for every paper mario game in series rather than building on what the first two game established,he and his team is have practically killed paper mario series. As quoted by Thomas Bertram Lance If it isn't broke don't fix it.

There are things about this game I don't like but so much about it I do like

This is the single most honest retrospective I've ever seen, even if I can't justify not liking this game.

I remember reading that interview with Tanabe as well and it had the exact same impact on me; it made me more angry than anything. How they could be so stupid as to handcuff themselves like that is beyond me. What I would give for one of these so called gaming journalists to actually push back on such a ridiculous statement for once. I know it’s probably overstated at this point, but man I miss Ryota Kawade. That guy clearly gave his blood and tears for the first 3 games. The sad part is Tanabe isn’t all bad, he oversaw Metroid Prime and Luigi’s Mansion. But for some reason with Paper Mario, he just pumps out beyond average entry after beyond average entry. That being said, I do admit that OK was way better than both SS and CS. Id still rank it below Super though, and way below the first 2. It had some really cool moments though, but it’s held back by some utterly absurd (and seemingly stubborn) elements.

I gotta hand it to these developers. They’ve made three of the worst combat systems in gaming history back to back.

Love how this game makes the villian have the same view of the community that all the toads are the same and boring, I think the devs were really trying to poke fun there

Paper Mario feels like a game series that got hit by a sticker-bus and we've been watching the cripple series slowly regain use of their legs.

The main thing regarding the combat of those Paper Mario games is that the director of the studios or so... wanted to, essentially, make an RPG... without RPG elements. I think he said so around the release of the Origami King, when he was talking about the idea behind the Ring System. That's why there's no XP in the games, at least in a way that increases your stats - they don't want stats to be a thing, they don't want numbers of your attack power or even special attacks to be a concern, which might explain why they instead went for collectable and expendable tokens to use as attacks instead of proper attack choices, why Color Splash showed no values for enemy HP, and why coins were tossed at you so that there'd be no risk of you running out of all methods of attacking. But this whole thing is like trying to fit a round peg in a triangle hole. No matter the amount of coins you get in each battle, that doesn't give you any real incentive for fighting at all, since you'll only be spending coins for, you guessed it, more attack methods. The Origami King's solution? Keep the whole thing as it is, but give you a permanent way to do the most basic attacks, which is not a bad idea, it relegates special attacks to usable items... but then they add a ring-shaped layer of complexity to it all, just for the sake of trying to do something different, trying to cast people's minds away from the bummer systems of the previous two games, while still sticking to the core idea of not making this an RPG yet still insisting on adding turn-based battles. Basically, their core philosophy for the battle systems of these games is to avoid doing the only thing that could truly save them. How mind boggling is that? It's like making a platformer without verticality (and I don't say "without jumping" because Captain Toad did it, although that's more of a puzzle game), or making a SHMUP without free movement, not even horizontal, and making your only actions be either shooting or blocking projectiles. Fine stuff for a minigame, not a full game. Though, the best thing they did with the battle system was by far the Boss Battles in OK, it reminds me of those Flash Game puzzles where you lead a somnambulant person towards a goal with arrows on a grid floor, they embrace the whole puzzle aspect fully, and are self contained in their solutions. They also work better in great part because Things are gone, so the boss battles aren't an adventure game trick puzzle where you need an item to solve them and either manage to find the correct solution or fail miserably and die until you find it. I swear, I don't even know what was the mindset behind the Things as a whole. It was already flawed on paper, no one liked it in practice, and they for some reason still did it twice.

19:10 i say that the devs used the same theme for handaconda's boss fight

I'll admit Origami King is my favourite Paper Mario game (although it's the only one I've actually played). The battle system is unique and quite fun, as well as being more enjoyable than the standard flat battles. The paper aesthetic is used to its full potential, especially thanks to the League of Stationary. There's a great soundtrack, surprisingly memorable characters, and a lot of charm. Hopefully future Paper Mario titles will take inspiration from the Origami King, as I feel like it's a great direction point for the series.

Just a note: In origami, altering the paper in any way, shape or form is totally forbidden. You can only fold and unfold it. By writing on it, it would be similar as a parent tattooing something on their newborn's skin. A traumatic experience. So, as a motivation, it works in my book. In his eyes, Ollie was marked forever my the person who brought him to life. About why the fuck does Ollie not read it himself instead of going murderous king? Idk Let's say that it was in an inner part of him and he could not read it himself but he could feel the mark.

Not gonna lie, Origami King is my second favorite Paper Mario game. While it was so so different from TTYD, I felt that magic again from TTYD. This is my tenth favorite game of all time now, and while I know it is full of flaws, I adored this game so much and I would honestly be okay we got another game like The Origami King. However, some day something kinda needs to change haha. The fact it is so far removed from what it originally was is just kind of baffling. However, what I love about Intelligent Systems is that they were able to go around Miyamoto's rules of no interesting characters and *make that part of the plot*. The fact that we had a character like Bobby, the whole point of his character being that he *isn't* an interesting character and he just wants to make an impact? That was a genius move. This shows that Intelligent Systems is trying their best to make phenomenal games and they are finding ways to move around the restrictions they have. I also have to disagree with the manipulative part of the Bob-Ombs. I think it comes full circle, showing that these Bob-Ombs had to make an impact, and that while Olivia can't realize that, Mario, Bowser, and Kamek understand the necessity of the moment. I thought that scene was brilliant. But I get how it seemed awkward for you haha.

Paper mario origami king was meant to showed at e3 but was cansal due to the pantamect you know what i mean

So pumped to watch this!

When it comes to the battle system, I've said it before and I'll say it again, this could have been solved if the puzzle that needed to be done then transitions into old school turn based combat. Boom new thing combined with the old

Glad ya gave the game a fair shake and gave it the deserved praise it deserves, but honestly I loved the game, and more than that I really liked the combat system. It's true it gives ya tons of coins making items inconsequential, but while I agree it makes some fights too easy, I'd much rather it over the alternative in Sticker Star where the resources spent fighting > the rewards. And while yes you can pay the toads to do part of the fight for you, that heavily mitigates the rewards you get, to the point where you lose out on money, so you can't do it every fight. It still becomes a lowkey resource management game. Plus, if you want to go for 100% completion, you're required to have a certain number of coins, so it's best not to waste them. Idk all in all I played the game without equipping items or seeking help from the toads, and honestly it made the combat extremely challenging and rewarding. I might be in the minority here

Not a big fan of puzzle games myself but I breezed through most of TOK's ring system Side note: saw this video on my recommended and, when you said to watch the other ones first, I did. Love your video style!

Great video!

At this point I just wish they'd take out the battling if they aren't going to make an RPG anymore

What’s the song that plays at the modern paper Mario section?

No love for the Disco Devil or Snif City themes?!

I mean, Origami King did bring some qol stuff to the series like a Retry screen

With the Thousand-Year Door Remake now a thing...it makes you wonder what changed for them to go back to how the old Paper Mario was. Who or what changed to give the creators their original freedoms back?

31:26 I don't think the game "wrote itself into a corner". They wanted to make a joke and they did just that. Otherwise they would've just used cannonballs or Bullet Bills, which are way more common in a scenario like this than Bob-ombs. Not sure I like Olivia. These companions in the newest games can be very intrusive commenting on every single thing that happens, and Olivia just isn't entertaining like Huey was, her naive kiddie schtick gets old kinda fast, and then the puns...

There’s been a lot of rumors tha Myamoto is stepping away from games to work on the new Nintendo film division… that would be greatttt

You sounded like you were singing here 11:45

I think the game is fine for what it is, but as someone who has never played Thousand Year Door, I feel that Origami King is still lesser than TTYD. True story: I found just watching a Let's Play of TTYD to be more fun than actually PLAYING Origami King. I think that speaks volumes, don't you?

What's the name of the song playing at 12:00?

54:11 Dividing something by 10 is getting 10 percent of that thing tho... or am i not understanding your meaning?

You seriously deserve more views.

Honestly my second favorite Paper Mario game, first being the original!

It's funny how much Nintendo wants to restrict creative freedom of Mario as a franchise when literally nobody was complaining about it. Is it just because they can't sell merch for characters like Geno due to copyright messes? They say it's because of a focus on mechanics, but I can't buy that with how much they've been kneecapping making games be mechanically interesting either. Origami King feels like the absolute best game they could make with Nintendo's restrictions, but it also just showcases how limiting those are. I feel like this will either be the last Paper Mario game, or people will WISH it was the last.

the game sure is a step up from the last two games but its a step down from the series as a whole in comparison to the first 3, a least ttyd remake leaves some hope for a proper paper mario in the future. spm wasn't even a true rpg and it felt more paper mario then anything post ss.

The way i found out paper Mario the origami king was coming out is i watch first trailer i don't speend a lot of time on Twitter so i didn know it was twit and well one thing You should know about me is that i don't yell when i watch a trailer i just stand there with no words simply becuase i don't want to interrob the music if you get what i mean

35:51 i like the i deas You came with but You said that Mario would Start with Zero attack slots meaning the first tutorial battle is unwinable

Okay but besides all the complaining, the game is really good from what i've seen from zackscottgames, and the dialogue and story is pretty good, and so is the music and many other aspects

The battle system is cancer, but I like everything else. Better than Sticker Star and Color Splash.

Not Mitamoto, it's Tanabe.

To me, this may be the only Paper Mario game i've played but if this game is the best Nintendo game i've played then I want to play the first 2 games. The graphics look beautiful, the story is fantastic, the characters are extremely well written and fun, the battle system is extremely fun even tho i'm bad at it and the music is Top 3 for me. Olivia, Bobby and Olly specifically are the highlights of the game as they made me appreciate simplistic characters and designs and even helped me appreciate the value and meaning of life (yes i'm being serious, look deeper into those 3 characters) And after watching this entire video and hearing your critiques and opinions, I can honestly say that you are way, way waaaaaay too harsh on this game. Like genuinely I didn't feel like this game was given a fair chance because it's being compared to the first two games which i've always found to be stupid because clearly that's not the purpose of this game. It feels more like a mix of the old and new style and I think it works wonders with that aspect because it took aspects from what worked based on what they're limited with and making the best that they can make and you even know this yet you constantly complain that it's not as good as the first two games. This game doesn't have to be on par with the past games, it's not like the first two games, it's not like the last two games and it's certainly not like Super Paper Mario, it's supposed to be it's own thing so it's only fair if it's treated like it's own thing. Next, some of your points make no sense and are almost nitpicky at some points. Like you made a point that the game is utilizing more of the paper aspect and because of that it's a problem? Why? What's the problem? The past games utilize the paper aspect because the games are called Paper Mario, why wouldn't they focus more on the paper aspect? In fact if it utilized less of the paper aspect then I would consider that a bad thing, it's like in The Lego Movie where everything is made of lego which even involved things like the water and it's praised for it's creative visuals, The Origami King looks gorgeous because of it's creative visuals so why is it being considered a problem when in the other games, that's not a problem at all? Also this is a bit contradictory because the whole issue with the modern Paper Mario games is that they lack creativity and are lazy, well the visuals are extremely creative and had effort put into them yet suddenly it's a problem? Another problem, Bobby's death is sad and most of the community has this opinion but you also seem to not like it? You then complain that later on in the story, when Bob-ombs are being used as a sacrifice, you argued that Mario and Olivia don't seem upset over this. I actually agree with this but then you randomly bring up the point that it's manipulative? Where did you get that from? Nothing implies that a simple plothole like this has any deeper implications like that, the problem is simply that Olivia and Mario are fine with them dying, that's it. It's not as dark as you brought up and it makes no sense. It's also confusing because once again, do you like the sacrifice or not? I honestly do not get the point you are trying to make, you complain about one thing but because you don't explain further, it seems like you're contradicting what you just said. I also want to mention that i'm getting sick and tired of someone complaining about one thing that's optional but taking that feature and because they don't like it in their opinion, they make it a big deal which I never understand. This applies to all Mario btw, in this case you'e talking about the battle system and how it can easily be solved by paying Toads, here's a genius solution to the problem you mentioned, just don't use it. It's literally as simple as not using an optional feature of the game, it's not like the game is encouraging you to use it, in fact I would argue that it encourages you to solve the puzzle normally because one of the bonuses after you win is you solving the puzzle which earns you more money whereas with the Toads, I don't even think they mention it at least once so how are they encouraging you to always use that feature? And also, why are you assuming that they just don't care? Why does every critic assume the worst in other people? Seriously, because they add an optional feature automatically means that the devs don't care about the battle system? Like with Bobby's death, you got that point out of nowhere, there's nothing that implies that they don't care, in fact the interviews show the opposite because it shows that they do care but they're limited. That solution can easily be chalked up to them knowing that there will be people that aren't good with puzzles or just wants to play a game that isn't hard which i'm one of those people btw and giving them an alternative for them to do, it's not evil at all. You are thinking way too deep honestly, it also makes me worried that when I eventually work on videogames, just thinking of a simple solution for different people will make people see me in a bad light and I really don't like that perspective. Seriously everytime you mention a good point to the game, you follow it up with either a comparison or a negative point. If someone will think that you despise the game then you can't blame anyone because it feels like you do. You should've paced the video better by mentioning the positives more often and mentioning the negatives in a different segment or at least giving sometime before you mention it. I'm not saying that anyone's opinion on this game being disappointing because it's not like the past games it bad, it's your opinion and I would honestly hate to do that to a person. I'm just saying that if people were to critique a game like this then they need to be fair and have no bias nor unnecessary points at all, just judging the game by what it is rn.

My ranking of the games. Thousand Year Door Super Paper Mario Paper Mario on the Nintendo 64 Paper Mario needs to be more like the first 3 games Paper Mario needs to be more like the first 3 games Paper Mario needs to be more like the first 3 games Paper Mario needs to be more like the first 3 games Paper Mario needs to be more like the first 3 games Paper Mario needs to be more like the first 3 games Paper Mario needs to be more like the first 3 games Paper Mario needs to be more like the first 3 games Paper Mario needs to be more like the first 3 games Paper Mario needs to be more like the first 3 games Paper Mario needs to be more like the first 3 games Paper Mario needs to be more like the first 3 games Origami King Color Splash Sticker Shit-i mean "star"

This game is hard to enjoy in a vacuum if you've played the old games or if you've read the interviews. Those interviews point out just how arbitrary and contrived several aspects of this game are like no unique characters, paper gimmicks being more important than a good story, no rpg mechanics, etc. Like, instead of caring about superficial stuff, they should just want to make a good game, but they don't. They want NEW stuff and gimmicks.

Shy Guys Finish Last is the only reason I will never replay this game. I hated that part.

I hate this game. It's not fun. It's frustrating. The battle system is the worst thing I've ever experienced. And it's all the more frustrating because of how much about this game I do actually like. It was so funny, the characters we were allowed to have were really fun and cute. The world is GORGEOUS. But I can't enjoy any of that when I spend so much time dreading most of the gameplay itself. I get why people like it. But it just was the biggest disappointment I've ever experienced with a game. I'll never play it again.

Dude would you really want a game over after you just started i dont think so 4:21

I still think this game is way better than Ttyd, but I agree that the battle system could be better. Hopefully the Ttyd remake fixes some of the issues I have with that game.

Ttyd was a masterpiece. OG paper mario was a damn good start. Origami king was....ok. my only gripe is the battle system/weapons system, and the lack of a party in leu of interchangeable partners. The rest was pretty good. I think you have to keep in mind when playing these games, that they're intended for CHILDREN. So of course silly jokes, holes in logic and "the universe", and goofy boss battles are expected. Their target audience for these games are people using birthday and tooth fairy money to buy it. Not 30 year olds. Lol (I'm 33, I just take the game with a grain of salt)

Sad that the paper mario series is just the sticker mario series now

i despise shy guys finish last its just awfull

I borrowed a copy from my local library. I got as far as the water temple, and rage quit. Bobby only served to piss me off. I constantly had to drop what I was doing to find him after the game kept arbitrarily removing him from my party. I was officially DONE when I finally got the temple doors open, and saw him refrain from joining me. What a useless, lazy piece of junk! If I had known he was going to die, I'd have laughed at Nintendo for trying to make me feel bad for an annoying character. It's like George Lucas thinking people would like JarJar Binks.

This game blows.

I hate the ring battle system.

36:06 Please don't bring up BotW; it's just simply a horrid game that does serious disservice to such a great franchise, abandoning practically everything that made Legend of Zelda so fun to go through, in order to add features and mechanics that only serve to hinder and frustrate the player. Like, removing dungeons is a major misstep, as is making every weapon and shield so extremely fragile, and the limited stamina forcing the player to baby a completely arbitrary gauge. Not to mention the lack of map markers making finding stuff to do hit-and-miss and needlessly frustrating, how lacklustre the Divine Beasts are as dungeon replacements, how Shrines all look the same and how it's impossible to max out both Hearts and stamina, how the existence of spirit orbs means there are zero Heart Pieces, the severe lack of exploration tools that _actual_ Legend of Zelda games have in droves (no Hookshot or Clawshot, no Skull Hammer, no Iron Boots, nothing), the rampant sexism present in Gerudo Town that never gets resolved or rescinded for the player unlike Ocarina of Time (instead forcing the player to bloody crossdress; ugh), the worst incarnation of Zelda ever... Yeah, BotW is simply horrid. Hopefully we get a return to form after TotK.

blaming miyamoto is so 2017 and outdated and actually just wrong

Best chapter was glitzville by far