This is happening in the UK as well. The 'Association of Responsible Dog Owners' (ARDO) have set a challenge for a positive only trainer to train a dog with a history of chasing livestock, to not chase livestock in absence of the handler. The prize pool is around £40000 and no one has taken up the challenge yet!
i need to know more tho, is it a working breed dog, couch potato that when outside goes nuts, what are his other traits besides chasing livestock, is it a herding dog not doing his job or a normal dog, you need to elaborate a bit first but for right now i say, if it is any of the following breeds it should not be much of a challenge (rottie, lab, aussie, gsd, mali, dobbie, goldie, pittie) and its pretty much impossible if its a hunting dog, they chasers they are gonna chase, there is a difference if the chasing is prey driven or herding, is the behavior happening just when no handler around, is the dog even trained the basics, see, i can get my rottie to do just about anything i want from her, im not a big trainer or anything like that i just read alot on the subject, listen alot of podcasts, follow a few BALANCED trainers on YT and try to get bits of wisdom from basically anywhere and anyone i deem a reputable source, i learned alot with my 2 doggos so much i started to help my neighbours with their doggos to much success, solved a nasty paw licking case (thats just the most important one i think the poor dog was in it really bad and the solution was so damn simple i was quite mad it took me 2 days to get it)and just generally help the other dogs exercise and keep busy while their owners not at home or otherwise occupied, so what im saying, depending on the breed and the history of the dog i would take up the challenge if those 2 things seem good to me, i would really need to know more tho
Lot of hunting breeds would need aversives to break them of chasing livestock - Some sensitive ones you just get a tone with but most hunters use e collars on hounds for a good reason
Survey me... I used to breed dobbies and now have a mixed pack of husky/aussies as well as a GSD/Rottweiler, a pit/husky, a Great Pyrenees/Antanolion, an Am Cocker Spaniel and a Mini Aussiedoodle, I've also fostered many different types of dogs of different ages and behavioral problems... I've tried all kinds of training techniques and have ruined one of my dogs from using bad training methods. Balanced Training is what I've had the most success with and following Joel's advice has been a game changer for the dog I ruined. So survey me but they're not going to like my answers!
@@solideomusical Mine is a girl and we adopted her from a divorcing couple when she was almost a year old. She is almost 2 now. Her biggest issues where not coming when called, running off on her own adventures and becoming very destructive when board. Now she has an almost perfect recall and I make sure to work him mind and body as well as give her things to keep her occupied so she doesn't become destructive. She loves bikejoring! I'm happy to give any advice from my own personal experiences.
this purely positive reinforcement thing is beautiful on theory, and these trainers carefully select dogs and videos to post on youtube to "prove" that it works. It's all the same... always playfull puppies learning tricks while playing with a frisbee and getting treats. They never show the real problems, like "oh here's a 70lb agressive rottweiler that attacks the owners and killed 3 chickens". Good look handling that with treats and a tennis ball.
@@noovement1436 this is so true. Was listening to a guest on aggression specialist Michael Shikashio ‘s podcast talk about the importance of having to have the “hard conversations” re euthanasia. The best dog trainers almost never accept quitting and succumbing to executing the dog
I think the answer for the big, aggressive dog would be “management until behavior can be changed via positive reinforcement”. I’m watching this video and others like it because I am still trying to think through my opinion. I haven’t worked as a dog trainer in years initially due focusing on my kids and family priorities and later due to health issues. I’m delving into this topic because I have a puppy again for the first time in 18 years. I was trained as a strictly positive trainer. But with my current puppy (big, super confident, generally calm for 8m old, loves all humans and dogs, allegedly rott/Husky but having my doubts as she’s already 80lbs). I’ve decided I don’t have a problem with a deep, firm “no” if she’s getting mouthy with the kids (typically because they are doing something they shouldn’t).
I wonder if they're the same people who want to outlaw pitbulls outright. Because obviously, those dogs are challenging even for experienced owners and if it goes wrong and a pitbull develops behavioral problems, you're not going to fix that with 100% positive reinforcement. So to make that problem go away, they just want there to be no pitbulls anymore. As opposed to abandoning their ideological views and adapting their training techniques.
I have 2 children and they have required very different parenting. One is very rational and responds well to rational explanations and is goal oriented. The other is stubborn and defiant and can only rarely be motivated with positive reinforcement. I was able to correct the first one's behavior with sticker charts, while the other one needed consistent consequences and rigid boundaries. I don't train dogs but I imagine they are more or less the same: different dogs will require different training methods. Some may respond to purely positive reinforcement, but I imagine they are the exception. Most will require a combination of positive and negative reinforcement. And the odd one will probably only respond to mostly negative reinforcement.
I've done so many lab reports as a graduated Biology student and now an engineering student. If I turned in that lab report to a professor with surveys and no testing of my own, I would've gotten a big fat F. I wanted to read the report myself but wasn't sure where I could find it.
The best way to do these studies is to apply two different methods on littermates (as close in genetics as possible) and measure quantified efficacy metrics over several months while also measuring physiological metrics (hormone levels, heart rate, etc.) and then submit it to a top notch peer reviewed journal or conference. Then do this on tens of such litter mates from different breeds and then plot some graphs. Then have them reproduced independently by other groups. That's what scientific studies look like at least in my field. I'd say professional dog trainers can also run these experiments if they want to.
It probably appeals to people emotionally to put out information like that in those papers, and then kind of sets it up so that there is a perception that you are ‘mean’ if you do anything else, such a shame. I work with a balanced trainer and we use corrections to extinguish unwanted behaviour, and it works. Good points……how scientific is a ‘survey’…..what would be the bias in that? Must be huge!
Surveys can be scientific. But they need to conduct their surveys using a RANDOM sample, not a few CHOSEN people in their sample. But by its nature, surveys are "subjective" and rely on the "subjective" opinions of the subjects being surveyed.
@@trumplostlol3007 Also, the survey will be influenced by the person writing the questions since we all phrase questions diffirently depending on our bias. And you're going to interpret the answears diffirently as well.
@@leialofgren7976 I just spent yesterday at a management seminar for a big government department and we talked a lot about a survey this government department puts out every year (promise from a minister) and how they ‘chose’ to interpret it. It’s absolute rubbish!
Yeah, I've had dogs who have been fine with positive reinforcement training only and I have had dogs that needed some aversive methods because they were too strong headed with unsociable behaviours. Aversive methods are necessary for some dogs and the only way to let them know that the unwanted behaviour is not acceptable.
Exactly. That's why the purely positive trainers only show the first case, naturally easy and submissive dogs, that they can easly handle in order to "prove" their method works.
Who knew reinforcement meant increasing a target behavior and punishment is used to decrease a target behavior...Almost like these veterinarians ignored psychology while in school
i have a rottie/lab 14 months old, PR only works so far with her and there are certain points that you simply need to use a more balanced method or even negative reinforcement, negative correction or positive correction if you want to get somewhere with her, PR works fine for simple things, basic obedience etc, but when it comes to more advanced stuff, i sometimes need to change my game plan to one of the other methods as PR stops giving results. Thats why when i hear of a dog beeing trained just with PR i think 2 things, that dog is poorly trained at best and its trained for home life or in case they say its a show or working dog i dont believe it. I am quite conviced that maybe a really good PR only trainer could train a show dog to some extent but im 100% sure about that it wont work with working line dogs
I got my French Mastiff at 5 months old did positive reinforcement and was good accept loose leash walking, for 9 months I struggled my arms were about to fall off( she’s 43kg) then I did Joel’s style leash training,(still perfecting) can’t thank you enough, in one month complete change. I love taking her on walks twice a day 😀proofs in the pudding 👌
There’s a big difference when you’re working with a puppy, which is basically a clean palette, to use positive reinforcement vs working with a dog that has been never been corrected, neglected, or badly trained. It’s like having a problem child that’s constantly getting into trouble, where the school keeps calling the parents about him/her. Just like misguided/neglected children become a problem, so do dogs. We don’t reward our children for bad behavior, why should we do that with dogs? While we can verbally explain to our children what’s right and wrong, there’s a different kind of communication with dogs that doesn’t require too much talking. We don’t let our children take control and boss us around, why let a dog do that? In both situations, it’s a disaster!
This is a mess especially for a lot of us up-and-coming trainers! We all want what's best for the dogs. This is going to cause a lot of problems. Great video much-needed been following. Thanks Joel as always
I watched a video from Will Atherton yesterday and he was talking about how there are no studies or papers about how aversive training methods or tools out there and that it inspired him to do a masters degree in animal behaviour. He was talking about how he wanted to do his research paper on the efficacy of a prong collar when used to change unwanted/aggressive behaviour (I definitely haven’t used the same words he did here), but when he went to get approval to go ahead with it he got a flat out “No!”. He ended up leaving the course since there was no point in staying. I’d say this is the reason there are no studies out there except the purely positive ones 😐
While I agree that positive reenforcement does absolute wonders for training and teaching your dog, I also hold the firm belief that each and every dog is different - be it breed differences, behavioral differences, differences in upbringing, etc etc. Aversion training isn't always required for every dog - but I have encountered (and trained) some dogs who are..."Too smart" for positive reinforcement alone. Dogs can be great manipulators and can learn to use that positive reinforcement against you - especially if a person is new to dog ownership. At the end of the day, dogs are not humans and they never will be. In certain situations, you need to "speak dog" and sometimes that requires some form of aversion. Thank you for what you do and the stance you take when training our canine companions. You, and other trainers like you, are making a real difference and I appreciate you.
Dogs correct each other all the time; just watch them interact with each other (youtube has plenty of videos), it's how they communicate and what they understand. You reward for wanted behavior, correct for unwanted behavior.
Joel, I will keep watching and using your videos. I think you are one of the best dog trainers I have ever followed. I like Zac George too. He is a great positive reinforcement trainer, but sometimes that doesn’t work especially when you have a very stubborn dog. Please keep up the good work. You’re amazing!
There is no need to get worked up. People who genuinely care and want their dogs to be an integral part of their daily social life will still seek help from those who prove that they can handle the job. I haven't had to do dog training in 20 years until about a month ago. (My long-time baby passed away, and I got a new one.) Unlike my previous dogs, I was very conscious that I would have to be 100% in control of this one at all times, or she could hurt someone being a Great Dane, so I started looking at training videos from different trainers on RU-vid. I have narrowed down a few that are clear, informative, and can demonstrate what I need to do to produce the desired behaviors. Not only are you one, but in this video, you mentioned several of them. Thank you for all that you do, and please continue!
Zac, Tom, and you are my go to trainers. Zac is good with puppy training. Your philosophy of bond and have fun along with his fun obedience training is great. Your I'm the boss attitude and leash behavior is what's helping with my 11 mo. Husky.
I believe surveys are notoriously flawed. Also, questions are sometimes skewed to illicit a certain response. People respond the way they think would be the correct answer. I used to be all about positive reenforcement but it’s not working on my people aggressive 22 lb Min Pin mix so I’m expanding my knowledge by listening to you, new subscriber here.
It sounds as what we call in Sweden ”meatballscoatch”. Never tutch the dog, stuff the dog with meatballs constant and never ever say no. I have never seen a aggressiv dog stop with this method when you never tutch (not hurt it,just crab the leash exempel) the dog or tell the dog that it is not so nice to have its teeth in my arm. Yet have non of this folks been able to show me how to do it.
Yes, I’m afraid to even stop on a walk here in Sweden, so the dogs correct themselves and eventually learn what a leash is. God forbid someone would see me 😅😅😅
Switzerland is all positive everything too... went to puppy school and I asked my 4 months old puppy to sit before meeting another dog to test if he was at all listening to me and when he didn't I pushed the butt down gently. Then I was told that this was some old school, terrible technique that I was practicing right there, I shouldn't have even asked for a sit and not at all pushed the butt down when he didn't sit haha. I have no idea what and who to believe anymore it's crazy. When you have a dog one thing is for sure: whatever you do is wrong lol.
Thank you Joel, this was a really great video. I've always felt there was a problem with all positive training but it felt like I had no credebility because I was so souronded by people in the positive camp. Now it feels like I've found a few people with sense and it's very comforting.
Thank you for giving your take on it. I appreciate how respectful you are even when talking about something you disagree with and are passionate about. I have learned so much from you and I look forward to learning more!
Thanks Joel! I appreciate your take on these papers! I've worked in biology research labs and been to grad school, and I find the whole "science" biases of positive only training a totally unfounded conclusion for what's being claimed in the papers. The field of science based dog training is still immature. No one is coherently looking at the identification, treatment, and behavioral outcomes for mal-adaptive behavior in a prescriptive way like we do in medicine and engineering. The study I want to see is N random and normalized dogs classified as "aggressive" split into groups, trained with different methods, then tested the same way. That's real, knowledge generating science, but apparently the science we use to make decision about bridges and medicine isn't the same for dogs. Malarky! Anyway, your videos are a great education. I'm getting a dog myself, and I appreciate watching your work and just absorbing the approach. Really cool to see you think!
Thank you Joel, for your educated response to these studies. Your reasoned approach gives me confidence to do the best for my dogs. Love your channel, many thanks x
Hi Joel, glad to hear you will not let these BS studies affect your training techniques. Between you and Cesar Million I have learned a lot on how to best handle my 4 four legged knuckleheads. I hope you continue to share your techniques through RU-vid. Besides the craziness of these studies, The examiners of these students don’t give steps or examples of just how “positive reinforcement” can positively be used to correct aggression on a continuous basis. Keep up the excellent work.
👏👏👏👏👏 I just really hope that all the great trainers won’t have some stupid restrictions because of this “studies” in the future….so they can keep doing their amazing work to help dogs and owners.
Thanks for producing so much content lately, really appreciate the hard work you've put in this channel recently. I wish we had as many talented balanced trainers in Europe as you do in the US, unfortunately that is not the case.
Joel, Thanks for standing up and giving your perspective on this position statement from the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior! You are the only one I’m aware of who has joined in this discussion. This is great for the industry, and I know it can be an emotional one for those of us who work with dogs day to day. We all want to help people and their dogs and each person does their best with their knowledge and experience. Agree with you on several points. As I said in my video, no doubt more science is needed! It never ends! I’m also totally open to the idea that there were significant biases at play in the studies (though I would need clear evidence to support that claim, which I’m currently unaware of). But my mind is open. As I said in my video none of our individual experiences are really relevant as we cannot know how we would have done had either of us used different methods. We trainers are likely the most biased of all to our own methods (myself included!). So we are probably the worst source for objectivity on the matter. This is why we have to turn this one over to scientific research in my view. When doing our own research internally, we went into it with the intent of finding the biggest flaws of the studies as well as going outside of the studies cited to support the use of aversive methods in dog training. I knew the position statement would not go over well with much of my audience. So we had to really look at this from all angles. This was my attempt to address my obvious bias towards positive reinforcement methods. The body of science done on this topic does not support that aversive methods are necessary. We were unable to find a single study that supported that aversive methods were necessary…and we looked. To be clear, aversive methods work! But the science indicates that it doesn’t work better than positive reinforcement according to body of work we examined. Furthermore, there was enough data to indicate potential “problems” with the welfare of the dogs where positive reinforcement was excluded. While each and every study cited had problems… a trend seems to very clear to support the sentiment that aversive methods are not necessary to resolve any known behavior problem. We could have totally missed one or more studies which is why I asked my RU-vid audience, and others to please let us know what we missed. So far no additional studies have been brought forward. If I’m wrong, I want to know it! It is totally possible that you are completely correct in your assessment of the studies. However, there is still a glaring lack of scientific evidence that aversive methods necessary. In many of the instances you listed where punishment was necessary (in your view), those examples seem to include a mismanagement of the dogs environment. By all means, if a dog fight breaks out, it’s totally feasible to use aversive methods to break up the fight. But as a trainer, I’m sure you can see body language that indicates a dog is about to go over threshold. I’m sure you’ll agree that this is the least ideal time to teach a dog while they are over threshold. Yes, things happen, but surely there are other ways that don’t require an attempted act of aggression in order for a dog to learn how to behave. It’s widely accepted that most, if not all aggression, stems from fear. Addressing fear seems to be more effective when one is sensitive to the dog’s underlying mental and emotional state. We actually purchased and heavily reviewed every study listed in AVSAB’s position statement, and found multiple lines of evidence that aversive methods were correlated with compounding aggressive behaviors long term, though not always. Furthermore, if you do get the studies, you can see all of the questions asked in the survey studies. You can also see all of the parameters tested too. It’s quite fun to delve into these while being devil’s advocate! I gave it my best shot. By working within an individual dog’s limits, management, counterconditioning, desensitizing them, and doing one’s best to address any underlying emotional conditions (including medication where appropriate), we see success all of the time in positive reinforcement training. I have a few anecdotal examples on my channel. Most recently, Moira the GSD had a history of killing chickens and we worked with her extensively on tempering her prey drive without the intentional use of positive punishment. I also have another example of addressing resource guarding using positive reinforcement with Pancake the corgi! (Have you noticed how all corgis are named after food, or is it just me?) If your assessment is correct, modern research doesn’t seem to agree with that assessment. Yet. I truly have an open mind, but in order for people like me to be swayed by the perspective that aversives are necessary, I would have to dismiss all of this scientific research by the most educated people in the field of dog behavior: Sources here: docs.google.com/document/d/1IdIl4bqGkhkVQy2G6molJO1y0nG7Ew5icAvF8obpXX4/edit?usp=sharing Again…Thanks for stepping up and contributing some great points to the conversation! I also appreciate you encouraging people to watch our video on this landmark statement. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-bkulCnZpQMU.html
I agree. We should really dig into these studies and probably outline them in some blog. It would be the best way rather than talking about them. Being able to access the data would better sway opinions. That being said, I do wonder how the positive reinforcement community has dealt with aggressive dogs. I think we would all benefit from seeing that in action. I don't see much of that. Thanks Zak. And thanks Joel from responding .
@@notandyvee My honest take as both a dog trainer and a video producer is this. If the audience doesn’t see a dog lash out, they will not accept that the dog can behave aggressively in certain contexts. RU-vid dog trainers feel a pressure to show the behavior. In reality, positive reinforcement trainers judge their success by preventing as close to 100% of such outbursts as possible. So the average person will often deduce that a dog was never aggressive to begin with. Here is a rare example of where I got snapped at when working with a dog who had fear issues and would sometimes attempt to bite people. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-eULj1GOH0-A.html I also referenced other examples (in the above post) on my channel which details how I tackle these complex issues. Not saying my way is the best, just doing my best to comply with what the science currently suggests. Totally agree that more needs to be done in this department. Good comment!
@@zakgeorge appreciate your response and you being on the front line here. I have a friend who is certified, and she didn't react well to hearing AVSAB. That piqued my interest. Very curious why that is. I for one like hearing all sides to make my own informed decisions. Cheers!
@@notandyvee Science is the best tool we have to uncover what is true. So regardless of what our opinions are, they must be run through the scientific process to gain acceptance. The AVSAB statement is simply a reflection on where we are today.
Zak - the fundamental question that Joel asks is are these studies “good” science? The answer isn’t going to be with you (you mention in your video you aren’t a scientist) or Joel or other dog trainers or me even. I’d recommend you find researchers, economists, scientists outside of the animal behavior realm - people who either setup studies like these, or read and examine scientific literature on the regular - and have them evaluate how good/bad the referenced studies are. I’m a relatively science minded person and it can be really hard to see flaws in programs or understand sample size/margin of error math, etc… Science is about repeatability of methods and results - this would probably never happen, but it’d be super cool that if you took this research, and that someone of your means and influence were able to setup an improved experiment/protocol (with input from the above scientific folks) and add to the literature. Thank you for your time.
Okay. Positive reinforcement helped my miniature schnauzer learn parlor tricks. That's it. He was so stubborn when it came to almost everything else. Treats/toys did nothing when we were out of the house. I could never get him to come to me when we were outside until I started doing the "collection" method on him. But with my poodle mix, I never had to do any of that with her. Positive reinforcement was enough for her for the most part. Didn't help her with genetic fear problems, but it helped with basic things. It depends on the dog.
True. But really what's happened is you've taken a ratter/farm dog out of his natural environment (on a farm, working independently, ratting). So you use aversives to force him into conforming to your life. That doesn't mean he "needed" aversives; if he was living the life he was bred for, R+ would have sufficed. I'm a balanced trainer btw
Let’s get all the top dog trainers together for a debate. Joel, Cesar, Zak, and others. I think it will be the best discussion on training methods and past experiences. Who else would like that?
I think different dogs need different approaches, hence the word balanced approach. My dog has always been behaving well since I had her, never chows anything, and listens nearly all the time. And I don’t want to be her boss, but there are some little tricks we use such as have her sit next to the table when we are dining, and only eat her meal after we finish. But if my dog is the dominant or aggressive type, then maybe some harsh correction is required like how Joel showed us in the video.
Exactly. I do not have the money to train my dog so I had to diy it and by learning from McCann, zak, Beckman, fenrir, reading etc etc etc…. I now have trained with several pups. And have had to implement it around other dogs and IT WORKS. So that’s what I care about. Quick and works. The next day me and the doggo are friends because I’m clear and constant. They tend to love me because of this.
We the people need a Beckman’s Dog Training merch store!! 🤗 Maybe some T-shirts with Bosco & Prince, or some classic Joel sayings. Like “OK” (One of my personal favorites) Hats? Dog gear?
Totally with you on this one. I’ve gained so much knowledge watching trainers like you and Cesar who have the balls to stand against modern bs. I’ve seen what happens when an owner is unwilling to try methods that work because they think positive reinforce or distraction techniques can curb severe animal and people aggression. One of my best friends is this type of person. She had this little staffie “pitbull” mix she rescued who has HORRIBLE issues. Honestly I couldn’t stand that dog. She was out of control and my friend insisted on bringing her everywhere letting her attack everyone and everything. She tried all the positive reinforcement trainers, spraying vinegar in her mouth, treating her near dogs, distracting with treats all that crap that NEVER worked the least bit. She refused to be the leader and boss of this dog, made excuses for her behavior, and would not correct her behavior in any way that was remotely physical, ie making her sit, corrections with a pop, grabbing her, etc. The dog never got better. I told her “one day your dog is going to attack the wrong dog and she will be killed if you don’t put your foot down and take control of her. Well long story short she was away for work and her dog attacked their large full pit, who started having issues as well, low and behold, and the dog tore her a new one. She died from internal injuries they couldn’t even see before they could get her to the vet. If she has just put her own sensitive feelings aside and got the actual help that dog needed she would have been a normal, even good dog. I corrected her a few times when she went to kill our mutual friend’s Yorkie and she responded wonderfully but, she got all upset. Didn’t want to hurt the dog’s “feelings.” 😒. It’s a cautionary tale of not allowing yourself to fall victim to the ironic idea that letting a dog put themselves in others in danger is healthier for them than solid discipline and boundaries. Like you’ve said before it’s not for the faint of heart, and there’s a lot of close minded, easily manipulated people getting false information by large companies that stand to profit by making sure the dogs don’t get better. I’m glad you mentioned this is an actual epidemic! Dogs are more out of control than ever because people humanize them and can’t separate their own feelings from the animals needs. It upsets me, I’ve seen so many dogs put down and damn near ruined by owners unwilling to put the work in the correct and hard way. Glad there’s more than one person out there preaching the actual facts and showing proof!
😭. So sad. My friends dog accidently killed an out of control off leach aggressive and nippy chiuahua. The two dogs got ranged around the owner. Her dog(trained former hunting dog) had pinned the little guy and then she tripped and took them all down a hill. They figure her dog hit something and the nipper got it's collar caught on a tooth taking it with and thus some kind of hit created enough force to cause internal injuries on this miniscule menace.💔. Aggressive dogs are NOT cute. They NEED discipline. Edit. VINEGAR I. THE MOUTH. WTF! That right there is Waaauyyyyworse then anything I have ever seen Upstate K9 academy or anyone on this channel do or allow. Seriously messed up ideas🤦♀️
@@lisat9707 I know right? A trainer actually told her to do that. Mix a spray bottle with water and vinegar and when she growls, barks, and attacks spray it in her mouth? The dog didn’t even react she was intent on killing her target that she didn’t even notice. Then the whole “wave treats in her face when a dog is close,” idea worked for about .5 seconds until she saw the dog and locked on. Some trainers are willing to do everything and anything except face the problem head on and correct it. Most of their tactics are teaching avoidance. Which we all know avoiding and ignoring a problem never makes it go away. That dog could have been a wonderful ambassador for those type of breeds had she just disciplined her. And her dog paid the ultimate price for her unwillingness to change her views. How awful for your friend! What a sad thing to happen! At least it was an accident but, yes! Dogs, small or large, being aggressive is not cute or acceptable. Nor is letting your dogs run loose! That’s one of my biggest pet peeves is loose dogs. I have several in my neighborhood that the owners just open the front door and go back to whatever they were doing for 30mins-hours, while their dogs roams around, in the street most the time, unattended. They are all under 15 lbs except one chocolate lab, if they run up on the wrong dog one day, it’s game over for them. That’s not okay!
So when dogs correct each other for unacceptable behaviour would that be considered punishment based training? I can't remember seeing a dog that developed behavioural issues due to dog on dog corrections and they are way harsher than what any humane trainer does.
This. We have a pit/canary mix puppy who would grab onto one of our bigger dogs who is a pushover and would let him grab and shake his neck. We would do what these positive trainers say and redirect him to a new toy. That never worked. We let him annoy the larger dog until he corrected him. Never played rough like that again. I just couldn't imagine what kind of dangerous animal I'd be raising if I would've listened to all the positivity BS.
The challenge should start with a shelter dog with a known bite history and finish with an adoption. A series like that with the best trainers attempting to conform to the new position statement. I'm getting all worked up again! It's OK I can do this all day... Thanks again Beckman.
I like the challenge idea, but I don't think that a bite history is needed... well, maybe resource guarding with other dogs, but only fear aggression, barking, and avoidance with people to reduce the insurance-factor, making the research easier to fund.
@@hanksimon5433 I was thinking of it more as a "youtube challenge" that could show how pro trainers attempt their own interpretation of how to conform to this kinda crazy new position statement. Kind of like our own youtube community study but with very transparent results for everyone to make light of... But the documented bite history because why not give the dogs that need it the most another chance done by the pros to their own audiences.😉👍
Everything about you is first class joel, i love yor delivery your honesty and yor proffesionalism on dogs point blank. For me yor methods are the methods all of us should be using. Ive never seen anything so called aversive from you, only corrections that are neither harsh or unnecasary. Fantastic piece👍👍😊
This is ridiculous!!! What do they want me to do!? Fill a kong with peanut butter after my dog attacked another dog or neighbor!? What kind of people did they talk to to get the 'surveys'? Cat owner!? I love your methods, and I wanted to be a dog trainer after I've seen how the other dog trainers we've been to worked! My two Aussies were 5 month by this time, and both of the dog trainers around me told me to use a prong on my dogs!! Positiv reinforcement!? Really!? Sorry, but my neck is swelling when I hear that!!!
First, your no-nonsense approach and methods are practical and useful; they've helped me enjoy walking with my high-energy, 75lb, 15mo male Weimaraner. It particularly helped me identify the difference between his 'prey-drive' face and 'mad-dogging' face when we encounter other animals. Second, great review and commentary. However, I'm curious if the purely positive trend is 'presumed' to prevent aggressive or fear-based behaviours in the first place, which may explain why aggression seems invisible in their world. For example, from listening to and watching purely positive trainers, I get the distinct impression that aggressive behaviour 'just doesn't happen' because the methods mitigate it from the get-go, and if dogs exhibit aggressive behaviour, it's because the trainer/owner 'did training wrong'. I ask because *if* the invisibility of aggression is rooted in philosophical underpinnings, then it will be extremely difficult to address through conversation and may explain how the 'science' used to support this notion is often sketchy. Just my two cents in this crazy world. Thanks for your videos and work!
Yer it’s an interesting take. Just like human, if there were a serial killer or psycho, there would always be reports about his miserable child life or trauma, so maybe aggression is linked with improper training and trauma in puppy’s early life. But just like human, you can’t avoid those terrible things inevitably happen, so once there is a problem, we need to fix it.
The idea that positive trainers never address or deal with aggression is just untrue. Even freaking kikopup, who has extremely gentle training methods, has videos about aggression.
I’d like to see someone (a trainer, vet, anyone) completely rid a dog of its aggressive behavior with nothing but positive reinforcement… everything else aside, just show us that… Show…. *EVIDENCE* Proof is in the pudding, balanced trainers like Joel get results 👏👏
they can't. They ALWAYS have excuses. My aunt had 2 female westie puppies that started fighting violently when they were 6 months old. She spent a fortune with "positive trainers", months later she heard from the trainer that one of the dogs got too attached with the them, and it was jealous of the other one, and that's what triggered the fights. And that she would have to continue to reward the dogs when they are behaving ok so that they stop fighting. She ended up donating one of the dogs beacause the fights only got worse.
Your methods aren't cruel- after learning concept training AbsoluteDogs, I float between them, you and Zak George atm and I've got a dog who was/still gets hyper-aroused and is OTT friendly but reactive, barks and rushes on leash - then she got attacked by an aggressive dog and is now a timid dog in many ways, and so I'm 9 months into recovering her while and while her old reactive traits return - she has no understanding of the collar-leash connection and that's what you've helped me most with. Then recently you affirmed my use of a gentle leader(which some people think is cruel?) but the gentle leader encourages my dog to self correct. What you are doing is saving dogs from becoming rescue dogs plus improving the lives of the dogs by giving them proper socialization. My previous dogs were trained using correction chains which was how trainers taught me, but your methods give me alternative things to try that I don't believe are aversive.
I live in Australia, our trainer told us a horrific positive only story. Different people in the same extended family got two dogs from the same breeder, same litter. They both had developed aggression issues, they hired a positive only trainer to fix the problem, when they failed at fixing the dogs they said the only responsible thing to do was to put them down as they are a danger to society. The real sad thing is one of the dogs was put to sleep. The other side of the family just couldn't do it and hired another trainer for a second opinion. They hired the same guy we used ( he was a ex RAAF drug sniffer dogs trainer for 25 years) he had their dog fixed almost immediately. The dog had just never been given boundaries or corrections for bad behaviour and it just escalated until it was unmanageable. Now the other side of family has to live with the fact they put down their dog for no reason at all. The surviving dog has since had no problems once they were given proper technique's to deal with aggressive behaviour. These dogs were apparently not even close to a hard case, they just needed boundaries and light corrections to fix...
In our fix it quick world today , actually taking time to show our children (dogs included) the right way to act is so complex. Multilevel. The world perception, safety considerations, but MOSTLY the family unit cohesiveness. It takes time and more patience than most people are willing to possess and create. If given a gift, working hard and you not only get it , you accept it , is the strongest admiration and love of all. Just like us, sometimes dogs just don’t like someone. That is absolutely okay. You can’t force me to like someone. I can ignore them and give them no thought. Just redirect the dog to follow YOU and be proud when they find this solace.the “oh okay.. now I see” might take a while, but that’s where the patience comes into effect for both the dog and his family. Joel you have opened my eyes to the idiocracy of today. Your methods work. No pain and lots of gain.
Love the information you're putting out. I'm using your techniques on leashes right now, and my bull terrier is not having it. She's such a bull headed dog. But I believe she's coming along
I agree that Positive training is primarily the better and more powerful that will deep seed the training into the Dogs mind. But calm proportionate punishment is required for safety of both the Animal and Others when faced with an aggressive dog. Thank you for your balanced training videos which has enabled me to communicate better and make slow but definite progress with my two reactive rescue terrier-ists. :)
Just trying to imagine fixing aggression with, treats, hugs, pets, cuddles, baby talking, and bribing the dog to be nice.. crazy. Like we are talking about severe aggression here, not basic obedience, not even a little leash reactivity... Aggression. Attacking, people, dogs, animals, children.. life and death situations sometimes.. being fixed with the bribes of a treat. I’ll believe it when I see it. But heck If my child attacked another kid on the playground or even just kicked sand in someone’s face I certainly wouldn’t be bribing him to leave the kid alone by holding out a candy bar! I’d be making sure I had plenty of “poppies to my knock it off” and correcting my child! Lol But Even D.R.O & D.R.I would not fix aggression. It may help distract, or re direct focus for a split couple seconds, but avoiding, and distracting the dog from the stimulus is not Fixing the problem..it’s only prolonging it.
If you have to give the dogs rewards like "there there", pets and treats or even toys, to get it to stop nipping, jumping up on you/places they're not supposed to (couch, bed, table, counter, etc.), then you're gonna make it worse only. Essentially the dog thinks his behaviour is not only ok, but wanted.
Thank you for the deep dive into these studies. I have countless clients who have come to me and rescues that have sought out positive only training and there was no help provided for the problems with the dogs behavior. Dog that were taken to "behavioral vets" for behavior problems. They prescribe medications that create more problems. Then they are told to go to their positive only trainer. There are no improvements in the dog's behavior. Most that train with me get actual help. I love watching your videos because of your success. Keep it up. I would love to talk to you just to have a conversation.
Thanks for bringing this very important subject here! I love positive reinforcement technique and I am big fun of it but at the same time I watched plenty live situations with aggressive dogs and videos. Unfortunately must agree that positive reinforcement is not that effective to fix aggression as methods presented by this school. Nowadays there is a fashion to grow basically "All " exclusively using stress free methods, positive punishment even ;). So no surprise it is also widely used in dogs training world but in case there is a aggression problem U are immediately advised to contact specialist. If more people knew this methods here including using other dogs to training I do believe there would be less money spend for specialist, as well as for those other fashion training. Is this ok for business? Im not so sure ...but what I am sure is not ok for a dogs! We all know fashion changes with time so it might be change in this area some development too. Keep doing good work Joe and never give up! U are helping tremendously! big fun of your stuff!
I continue to learn that a balanced and individual training approach is what brings consistent results. Thanks for standing for real truth! Love this channel!!!
Was in the positive camp until I started working with my son’s doodle who had high energy and just wanted to have fun. An e collar ( tested on me first and set at Ziggy’s lowest level) worked magically. Recall and freedom worked wonders on him . Just because I called him back to me didn’t mean that the fun was over.
i enjoy using your methods along with ceaser and zak george its been giving me huge success with my new 5 year old dominant dobby dogs amazing cause im able to mesh all your guys styles into my own free knowlledge baby
When I hear “survey” I picture the Tonight Show episodes where they ask random people on the sidewalk to name a country on a map or name two US presidents. Very science-y stuff
as a PhD in chemistry, im telling you, dont trust published research. there is a ton of politics involved behind the door to get funding and writing grants
This is what I wanted. Thank you for diving deep into the underlying research. I agree that surveys of dog owners and reviews of very limited techniques in atypical settings is nearly useless for making such broad conclusions. The right way to do this would be to compare a broad swath of trainers applying different techniques, and averaging across each group. Under normal conditions and constraints.
Canada here. So sorry to see one of those dubious “studies” was published in my home province of BC. In the 90’s that same “positive reinforcement only” was tried here regarding children with disastrous results resulting in a whole generation of entitled snowflakes who don’t understand consequences. Keep up the great work Joel! My lovely well behaved dog thanks you.
Hey Joel. I'm going to try to do this real "study" you mentioned in this video. I just need to find a "renowned" positive only trainer to train the other dog. Will keep you in the loop, huge fan
My late Cane Corso was saved at an early age from abuse and neglect. She had fear aggression her whole life. I trained the living shit out of her with both positive reinforcement and aversive methods (didn't need the physical tools like the collars though, just a harnas and a sturdy leather collar). She learned to manage her emotions much better, and I controlled the environment on walks as much as possible. Still, I live in a city. I cannot always stay 100 feet away from every other dog, so we needed to learn to deal with it. I can't see how I would have taught her to ignore other active dogs if I was never allowed to say no or stop and let the leash do the work etc. If another dog comes running out of no where to my anxious dog, I don't have the time to patiently wait for my dog to look into my eyes. Even with all the focus training I have done with her, that would be too much. With my training she at least had a few dog friends where she could be off leash with. 80% of my training was positive reinforcement, but that last 20% was really needed for her to have a dog-worthy life.
In hindsight, it might be more than 20% of the time because if my dog is too focused on another dog and not me, I would pop the leash and walk the other way a bit. That was needed a lot when walking in the city with hyper dogs around. I would call that a redirection, but it might also be seen as a correction. I'm not that well versed in the difference of it all, I just do that what works for me and gave her the best life she could have had.
Training should be about the DOG, not about the method. I had a rescued greyhound that responded excellently to positive reinforcement training. I totally believed in this. Jump forward several years and I get a border collie, oh yes positive reinforcement will work with her to! Guess what... it didn’t. As a highly intelligent breed she recognised that in certain areas she could just ignore me. I changed my tactics and now she is 99% improved (still training her, she is only 2 years old).
What you say is true. I spent a fortune on an R+ trainer for a high prey drive Border Collie. My one and only training goal was to stop her chasing wildlife, get a good recall. After 5 months and hundreds of pounds spent on the trainer my dog is more out of control than it was before. I am now looking to change methods and am learning as much as I can. By now I also find it infuriating that successful people like Susan Garrett who trains agility dogs sells her online courses as if those methods worked in real life with distractions that people cannot control - people who don’t have the luxury to live on acres of private land where they can raise their dogs in a bubble and control every distraction from puppy to adulthood.
To be fair her methods are probably very effective as a starting point for dog training. But every dog and circumstance is different so different training methods are needed. General basic training needs little variation. The complications come when some behaviors are too extreme or there has been some training mishaps.
@@lisat9707 Yes, I totally agree. I've learned a lot and still use the games she teaches, but with one severe behaviour they just reached its limit, and I think it's a shame that these programmes tell people that it can work for any dog and for everything. 99% of my training is, and will always be purely positive, but a correction at the right time (like spacial pressure) can be very effective and isn't cruel.
I think most people also need to understand on when to use aversive approach and need to have a bit of patience. Just because positive reinforcement isn’t all peanut butter does not mean you should be very harsh to your 3 months puppy when she’s not listening to your sit command. And if you have a soft dog, then you should use softer approach otherwise you are just going to destroy her confidence.
Joel l have learned so much in dog training. I watch you, Zak George and Tom Davis. I’ve learned so much of what to do and NOT to do. By watching all of you. They can keep their studies or put them in the trash!!!! When I see a vet training all types of dogs. Then I’ll be very interested other than that not so much!!!!
I have been training this way for 48 years & this is the best explanation of so called ‘scientific findings’ that I have ever heard. Thank you for this!
Absolutely and completely agree with both of my hands and all my dogs' legs. Positivity for children , strictness in whatever methods they appear for every other dog. I never physically punished my super dominant alabay, but he was afraid of a one liter bottle of water standing near his booth.
I read some of the position statement. It's worse than a just bad take, it's going to cause actual harm to people and animals. The biggest problem with it is that for a new dog owner it may sound like reasonable advice. I have a GSD and I looked for a trainer's help when he was young. I got some bad advice from a "positive only" trainer and some other unhelpful advice from a behaviorist after he bit a woman. At that point he had also bitten two dogs and sent them both for stitches. I finally got a balanced trainer who specializes in aggression and my dog hasn't had another incident (been about 4 years since the bite). My dog's stress level actually went down noticeably when we started balanced training. Anyone new to dogs is going to get fucked by following this advice; at best they will ruin their first dog before figuring it out enough to deal with the problem they created. It's especially problematic if they get a bread that requires a strong leader like a GSD. On the plus side, I will almost certainly never have a dog that's harder than this one.
A review wouldn’t show you the example questionnaires of the studies; it should, however, delineate the quality of studies for review (preferably using a quality tool that has been validated), at least the authors highlight the limitations, with a population (dogs) that isn’t even generalisable reflective of ‘normal’ dog owners. Therefore the conclusions drawn from that review (first one) isn’t applicable. I believe the studies would also need a power calculation to see just how many participants (dogs) would be required for the results to be free of type 1 and 2 errors (false positive and negatives); it should also mention authors interests and who funded the study, insufficient evidence is beneficial as a means to fund better quality research. Keep your chin up mate, you’re doing an amazing job. Critical thinking is essential, especially in this day and age.
It seems that the term 'aversive methods' casts too broad of a spectrum. As you say, nobody wants to hurt their dogs, but this term can be applied to anything from pulling on a leash to more severe corrections.
When the dog is mid lunge at someone, I'd love to see a positive reinforcement way to get them to stop. Purely positive reinforcement folks are like hippies, already stoned into another dimension. If your dog is doing something they shouldn't be doing they need to know right now and there's no opportunity to provide anything positive at that moment.
Agree 100%! I’ve learned more with my aggressive pitbull than I have in my 20 years of dog training you are so right, thank you for putting this out there!!!
I have a working line GSD who I want as a home pet, survey me. Hah! Balance is the name of the game. We all want positive reinforcement to get them to do stuff we want, we cant use positive reinforcement to stop a dog from doing an unwanted behavior.
Thank you for clarifying these "studies". I like Zak George but like you, there are flaws. Dog owners simply do not have the time to do this method of constant positive reinforcement training. I tried to follow Zak George's methods, and the Petsmart training methods but I just could not get my shepherd to respect the walk~she was almost there~but not at the level she should have been through nearly one year and a half of doing the same thing. I think had Zak George raised children his views on soley relying on positive training would be very different. Because we who have raised children would know that positive reinforcement and distraction does not work in every situation.
I want a dog that I can take places. That doesn’t pull on walks. A dog that can meet other dogs and people. A dog that greets people nicely in my home. A dog who doesn’t jump on people. A dog that I don’t have to worry about biting people or dogs. And most of all a happy relationship.
Right! I just got a second dog a couple months ago. I have friends with chickens, with horses, ducks, kids, etc. Luckily he's great with kids, but other animals are a disaster. He wants to eat everything. There is no treat or compliment big enough to get him away from that. If I listen to Zak George (who's a great puppy trainer btw) I could not take him there for years. Which means I could not take my other dog, because then he'd be home alone which would not be fair if I take her all the time and him never. Then that creates some weird dynamic that places her over him.
Back again….. l totally agree with you. Where is the evidence. Purely positive talks a great deal about reports. It’s never been easier to put up content for all to see. So where is it… it just simply doesn’t exist. If it did would have to come with captions like “some time later” would actually be more like “ sometime significantly later” ie several years later. That’s if the dog manages to live that long. Because be in NO DOUBT we are talking about life limiting behaviours. These are the behaviours that if uncorrected will ultimately lead to a large amount of these dogs taking that last trip to the clinic!! if we get some engagement on this post. I have another comment to make on so called negative training.. Great stuff again Mr Beckman👍🇬🇧
Great video Joel- Negative consequences/reinforcement doesn't always mean hard corrections! I wish people knew what positive R only really means... Does that mean taking away something they want to show them their behavior is not okay, is harmful? Positive reinforcement is great to show the behaviors we want, but it doesn't always communicate to them what we don't want...just because its not positive R doesn't mean its an e-collar or prong collar or harmful to the dog...
Key words: You guys don't have time to do that. Yes. I agree. When I hear the words "aversive methods", that makes me cringe. Thank you for explaining your "aversive methods" because those aren't mean, not harmful, but extremely user friendly.
At 8:20 the survey was of "dog owners" not "dog trainers". What was the selection criteria for "dog owners", what was their experience level, and how exactly was "adversive method" defined. An inexperienced dog owner might attribute smacking as an adversive method is not effective, versus just popping the dog at the end of a leash. It important that the argument / studies are not just binary - postive-reinforcement versus adversive-methods. - but what is the spectrum of specific methods along that scale.
Spot on Joel, we're still waiting for Zach's video of him sorting aggression with treats. That will be the only answer to this debate. And we are still waiting..............
Don’t know if it’s a modification of their original dangerous and irrational stance that you’re discussing here, but their guidance now says punishment (ie choke chains, pincher collars, e-collars…etc…) shouldn’t be used as a “first line or early use treatment” for training dogs. But an extremely important distinction that now admits that punishment does have its place in dog training. 👏👏👏👏👏
I think you are absolutely right about this, most likely the contributions made in these study's are non trainers or have not worked with bad behaviours.
