Part 2 of when General Aviation was affordable 

You said saturation... and there is no hangar space anywhere. Even the big hangars are filled up with little planes. There's no place to put the airplanes. Even ramp space is getting crowded. Yet when I fly a 700 mile trip at 10k I hardly see a GA aircraft. That's worthy of a video, how few of them actually fly.

I learned to fly in the mid 80's. It was a great time. Prices were cheap. C-150 for $30, a J-3 only cost me $29 an hour. There were still quite a few post WW2 gen aircraft on the field. It was a fun time to be a pilot. History, excitement, all for a fairly cheap price. I didn't realize that it was a golden time in aviation. Those days are long gone now. Another thing I have noticed, no kids around saying I want to be a pilot when I grow up. That was one of the big dreams when I grew up. It's as if aviation has wondered off into its own little world.

I got my Private SEL license in the early 70's when the rental for a C150 was $17hr wet. I don't remember what I paid my instructor. I flew out of a small county airstrip. Back then we didn't have transponders yet, just used Unicom and only had to stay away from the Class 3 upside down layer cake of the major airport some 20 miles south. After getting my ticket I kept flying for a couple years but the rental prices kept going up faster than my salary. That and there were few friends who wanted to go up in a small plane. Girls would jump on the back of my motorcycle in a NY minute but No One wanted to fly! So after a few years as the prices went thru the roof from the oil prices, I too just gave up. Oh Well, at least i Did fly once upon a time.

You do make a good point about the middle class decline. I'll point out that the decline in aviation starts just a few years after we went off the gold standard.

As a European (Greece), all these "CE" certifications required for cars, motorcycles, airplanes, etc, serve only one purpose = to take the small manufacturer out of the game.

Tens of thousands of aircraft just sitting rotting at airports all across the country. 11 aircraft at my local field. Two get flown. I went to another airport this last weekend. I was there 5 hours. 75/100 hangars beautiful day. One guy flew in got fuel and left. When I drove around one hangar door open. Old guy sitting in a lawn chair with his dog.

There's a lot to be said about keeping things simple

43 yo here. I wish I could get my license and go all the way to ATP as a new career. Even got my 1st class medical, passed my ppl written, saved $25K cash and planned on selling the small amount of stock I have. But the numbers kept getting worse the more I researched. It’s just sad

Great video. As a CFI, I would add a few other elements to this story. First, most young people today just don’t seem to have the desire or drive to commit to something as complex as aviation. Some do, of course….but it just seems to be less in our national “DNA” than it has in the past. We are turning into a social media/video game culture. Second, as you touched on, the costs are staggering…not just in the initial cost of the airplane but also the operation and maintenance. A clean annual at a 145 shop on your $30,000 antique Luscombe is going to run well over $1,500. Fly that same plane 100 hours a year and add another $3,000 for fuel. Then, a hangar at another $4,000 to $5,000 a year. Insurance, another $1,000. A&P’s are hard to find, A&P/IA’s nearly impossible. A private certificate at a part 61 school is going to run at least $15,000…more at a 141 school. I just bought a fuel shutoff valve for my ‘47 Cessna 140. The FAA/PMA’d version (which I bought) was $550. The same valve without the paperwork was $199. And that points right at the next issue….the cost of litigation and the price that manufacturers pay (passed on to owner operators) for the paperwork to protect themselves from frivolous lawsuits. All this is taking its toll. In 1980, the pilot population was 0.35% of the population. Today it is 0.18%. In terms of percentages, we are down nearly 50% in about 40 years. I wish I knew the answer to all this but I just do not. Meanwhile, I’ll keep flying till I get to where I need someone to change my diapers for me. Then I’ll hang it up 😅

when I was learning to fly in the 80s and early 90s, I was living in an apt where the rent was $300, and that was divided between three roommates. Plus, super cheap groceries, and I rode my bike to the airport. So it's not just the a/c rental costs, or instructor fees... I would guess the basic cost of living for students is substantially higher, leaving less "extra money" for flying. If I had to start from scratch today, I would buy a C150 or 152 and maybe make it available to a couple of local flight instructors. With a CFI certificate, you could teach people, and then - once you're ready to start working for a 135 outfit or regional, you could sell the plane and probably recover a good portion of the investment.

This was a good summary of the high cost of aviation. More than thirty years ago, I spent five grand earning my private pilot's license. This was twice the average where I live. Subsequent ratings I earned were close to that cost over the following years. Today, it's $11,000 for the private in my area. I agree that it takes the desire and motivation to pursue being a pilot. However, it seems that the increasing high cost is the largest barrier to considering earning a license to fly.

Interesting enough, real estate seems to have increased in price in roughly the same proportion. What sold for $10-15K in the early 60’s has appreciation far greater than inflation. I totally agree with you. Sadly, there are a multitude of factors that affected the price of a new airplane. Subscribed!

The killer cost where I am, the UK, is fuel it’s the equivalent of 11.50USD for a single US gallon of avgas. However, since the pandemic, the rampant inflation we have seen means component prices have massively increased, and second hand aircraft values have seen a big bubble, which thankfully now seems to be subsiding.

I had two 170s a 180 total 31 years and never insured any of them. I got a Vans RV6A, 15 years, and insured that every year. I figured I was too old to recover from a loss like that. I found annuals from private guys and helped.

Great video, prices are only going up. When I began my journey in 2019 it was 150 an hour for a 172 and 50 an hour for the instructor. So for the usual evening of training 2 hours was 400 dollars. Which is equivalent to the last car payment I had in 2015. I bought my Mooney later that year with 25 hours under my belt. I'm so glad I did. Since covid, airplane prices have doubled, there's no way I could afford to buy the same airplane today.

Wages have not kept up with inflation...

Pilot lic. 1967 cost affordable for a guy like me making $15K a year. Commercial lic. About 3,5K, I financed it. Now have 10,000 flight hours, was a Grumman American dealer (Yankee, then AA1’s, and then the 4 seater Travler’s etc. I sold to guys not making more then 15 to 25K a year, they were able to buy my brand new planes, the on to be a Piper dealer, sold new Piper Warriors, for $25K, Piper Arrows, $50K, and Turbo Seneca’s for $100K, in 1977 to 1980 or so, not out of price for a business guy etc. Then the insurance industry shut down Piper, Cessna etc. by making it to expensive to sell airplanes, and THEY QUIT BUILDING THEM! The demand was still there, but no new airplanes coming. I totally blame the high cost of insurance the stopped after the Piper Cub, was held responsible for airplanes they build 30 years ago! INSURANCE COST PERIOD. Then when they started building airplanes again the market had changed, Airlines were not hiring so no one was getting a pilot license to go into the airlines. I got out of the new airplanes sales as there were NO new airplane sales, and did great selling used airplanes (very affordable until about year 2005). The end.

I got my pilots license in 1972. Paid 18 dollars an hour to rent the 150 I took my lessons in.

Yes, the cost of flying is one of the reasons I haven’t flown for a while. I got my PPL in 95 after a few years of start and stop training. I learned in the venerable Cessna 150/152, at around $35 an hour. My first flight after getting my Private was a day trip to Catalina. I spent most of the flight sightseeing over the island. Then landing to have lunch in Avalon. Even the hundred dollar hamburger has gone up in price. Hahaha. I also flew the old Aeronca Champion in my training. I loved it. I liked it’s simplicity. Especially the tandem seating, because I had equal visibility out of both sides of the aircraft. I did wish it had an electric starter. I’m not too keen on prop starting the plane. One of the questions is why do we fly? I fly for the love of it. Some use it for travel only. Some for low and slow enjoyment. It reflects the aircraft you buy. I would be happy with a VFR Super Cub. But I would love to have a nice twin for some faster travel. I don’t like flying with the airlines, I would much rather fly somewhere myself and avoid the big airports. No hassle at small airports. Get to the airport, do a good preflight and you’re off. I actually prefer to use old school navigation. I like paper charts, pilotage and dead reckoning. Oh I do use new technology like GPS. But don’t rely on it. I don’t care if a plane has all the new glass in its cockpit. It’s nice but I am just as comfortable with the old six pack. I’m saving up to start flying again. When I do it will probably be in something older. Something cheap.

My airplane is a '78. Fast enough. Paid $27K twenty years ago. Spent probably 2x that updating the panel over time, but based on market price, now maybe $40K, the annual insurance is below what I pay for my truck. The hangar, with electricity, is $358.00/mo. However, fifty miles south of me in the greater Los Angeles area, hangars would be double or triple that amount. Wouldn't work for me. After purchasing the airplane, operating costs largely follow market value and location.

The government is starting to destroy model aviation! Now we are basically required to have transponders! So stupid!

I own/fly 5 aircraft and make $ by the hour to support this. The key is being a proactive owner: shop around for the best deals and keep after maintenance & cleaning. Renting thru clubs is the best avenue, no headaches or ownership worries, plus it’s affordable.

Man, oh man, that for photo of your father in front of his plane could have exactly been my father in front of his Luscombe. Such good memories, thanks man.

In 2004, the flying club I used was charging $70/hr wet for a piper warrior, Today, those planes run $120/hr which is almost right in line with inflation, and the planes also have better avionics now. The CPI says $120 today is equivalent to $17 in 1973 and many people are quoting something around those numbers for when they learned to fly. Perhaps new aircraft have gotten more expensive, but the cost to get out flying doesn't seem to have gone up that much.

An interesting way to measure the cost of things is to take the nominal cost of an item and divide by the average wage. And that will tell you how long it would take to earn enough to purchase the thing. So for example, the average wage in 1960 across all industries was around $4000. Today the average wage is approximately $60000. In 1960 it would take 2.5 years of the average wage to buy a C172. In 2023, it takes 6.7 years In 1960 it would take 7.5 years of the average wage to buy a Baron. In 2023, it takes 20 years. I'm skeptical that the additional features and capabilities of the airplane explain that increase. Especially if you compare it to computers. In 1960 the average computer barely did anything and yet cost millions of dollars. While today, a modern cell phone far exceeds the capabilities of a 1960 IBM mainframe by orders of magnitude. And yet a brand new cell phone costs under $1000. Let's say the average computer in 1960 cost $1m. At the average wage it would take 250 years to own that. Today a cell phone at $1000 that far exceeds the capabilities can be purchased for 6 days of the average wage. My guess as to what answers this: regulation acts as an impediment to innovation. Today, for example, most of us are flying around in Lycoming and Continental engines that were designed in the 40s. You have to go into the experimental world to start seeing innovation like what Rotax is doing. Why does a GPS in a certified airplane cost $10,000 and the same GPS in an experimental half that? Meanwhile I can download multiple GPS apps on my phone for free including free map updates. I think regulation plays a significant role.

7:05 So, we prefer to be middle income instead of upper income? That is exactly what has happened. Practically every problem comes back to government meddling, protectionism, and paternalistic safety culture.

I got all my ratings in 1980-1982, I added all my cost and it was a little over $6000, I can't imagine the cost now in 2023..

Love your conversational approach, keep’em coming! I’m a Baron owner and I find myself evaluating my existence in GA on a regular basis these days… I’d agree that rising insurance rates has A LOT to do with it.

My PPL cost me about 16k. Unfortunately, wages don’t scale with inflation and it’s keeping a lot of people away from aviation.

You are so right. I’am 89 & love flying and working on planes I have three; tri-pacer , vagabondpa15 & Mooney M20 love them all. Had heart attack lost medical. Don’t know if I should be flying any more. I enjoy all your stuff it’s so well done I learn so much from you keep up the good work . All the best Dave Harmon 8744C , 4434H, & 188DH

The prices for anything related to aviation are ridiculous

The FAA tells me on my medical I need to do a memory test with a Neurologist I pass everything on my medical good heart. The problem the cost for the test is $3000 . Im about to call it quits to expensive . The battery for my plane is now $400 for a 12 volt battery. Spark plugs $40 each.

I absolutely love your videos please keep ‘em coming as for me I very lucky to have 2 uncles that are a/p/ia and another that is a flight instructor and another with a pa 28 180 that let me get my ppl in my total cost was around 9000$ but that could have been a lot lower had I not enjoyed many hours of solo time and just stuck to training and finishing the process haha……in the end its a very expensive hobby but it is absolutely the best and most life changing experience aside from my wife and kids that I’ve ever had

Litigation has played a significant role in rising costs. As expensive as FAA mandates can be, the insurance industry is a major driver in costs,, and THE main barrier to simple VFR flying.

I made a comment a while back comparing the cost of a single engine GA and a yacht. Of course some buffoon screeched: "Are you for real? How can you compare the cost of a complex aircraft with a yacht! What's wrong with you?" I didn't bother to explain to the tool that production cost, fixed and variable, can be compared between products. As an owner of both aircraft and yachts, the owning, operating and maintaining are comparable. What is different is that I spend far less owning a classic vintage wooden sloop of 36' than owning a 1947 Fairchild with a Ranger engine. The number of people that can work on either is not great. The big difference is it costs a hell of a lot more to buy a parts for that Fairchild, than for anything on that yacht. I'm paying 2023 prices for parts made in 1940's for the aircraft.

Inflation is a measure of the general level of increase prices of goods and services, e.g., a weighted average of various prices. Some goods or services will increase faster (and some will increase slower) than the rate of inflation. One example of a good that has increased faster than inflation that gets more attention than general aviation (GA) is the cost of a college education. This video convinced me that the overall cost of GA has also risen faster than the rate of inflation. I agree that economies of scale in manufacturing is an important reason, as are the other reasons mentioned. I believe one reason the price of a good can increase at less than the rate of inflation is innovation and productivity improvement. For example, the cost of a computing power has decreased dramatically over the past 60 years. While there has been innovation in GA, I don't think it is they type that reduces cost of flying, e.g., sophisticated avionics, composite construction. I suspect that there hasn't been any significant innovation over the past 60 years in the manufacturing of aircraft and aircraft engines. Given the low volumes of new aircraft, I'm not surprised that the manufacturers are not investing in making production more efficient. I haven't been following the kit plane industry too closely lately, but I think kit plane manufacturers, like Vans, are probably the only ones doing any thing to make aircraft manufacturing (by home builders) cheaper.

WOW! Great vid! It seems to me that the middle class are getting similarly priced out of everything fun and it's bs 😢. When I was a kid in the 80's I saved up for 3 years to buy a Honda ATC 90...loved that little trike! When I was 19 I paid $800 for a great used Yamaha IT400f (2cycle endure racer)...still plenty of bike to have fun on! Now every time me & my buddies hit the trails all we see are $20k+ side by sides towed in with $50k+ trucks! I long for the days of Steve McQueen & his buddies hitting the dunes on their Honda 250 Elsinore's! Kids nowadays are getting ripped off! I don't think video gaming is a fair substitute for the dirt, the woods, the challenges, the on trail repairs, and the life long friendships.

You cam also add another 100k to build a hangar. They're so scarce for a myriad of reasons plus airport authorities want the hangars to look like luxury condos.

I agree and a good example of the cost of having advanced planes abuot with aconmy of scale is the F-35 it is one of the most expensive aerospace programs ever to have been attempted and now the only planes you can get new for cheaper are F-16s and Chinese Thunders... Because unlike the cheaper to develop Europain jets the F-35 has sold more and was designed to be cheaper... So yeah it all matters.

I rented a C150 in 1969 for $9.00 per hour wet! I made $1.70 per hour then at the grocery store. It was still affordable. Cheers

don't forget the manufacturers having to protect themselves from the inevitable downrange lawsuit... IMHO

Very well done. You have some serious talent.

Great work

Manufacture Liability insurance is a huge chunk of the new price!!

It still is affordable. I saw a Luscombe for sale last year for 13K. They burn about five gallons per hour and are simple to maintain. No, you can't sit on your duff and expect to fly. It gets really expensive really fast but there are plenty of airplanes out there which can be had for 15-20k. If you can't afford that, you've got other problems.

Good video. It’s such a shame it’s gone this way. I earn responsibly well but where I live (south east UK) but I am now having to pay £250 an hour wet for a PA28 (approx $300). It’s insane money. I would love to fly privately more but I cannot justify spending that amount for 1 hour of flying around the local area.

Good stuff! And... did I spot a Star Trek Terran Empire logo on your shirt? Why?

1970 moony ranger. 15000 minus radios

So... a few things. 1) The middle incomes are dropping in respect to inflation. and the national inflation numbers don't really give a valid picture in my opinion. in the 70's... my mom didn't work, and dad's income was plenty for us to live as a middle class household. By the 90's... it was not. (mom had to work) A basic car in the 80's was still under $10k... and the stripped models were $5k to $6k. FYI... my 1986 toyota truck (Stripped version) was $4995 when I got it in high school. Now... a basic car is close to $30k, and a "Stripped" car is $20k (Yes there are a few around $17k) Not to mention everyday stuff like energy, housing and food just take more of a standard income than it used to. 2) I know it won't make a big difference, but you should take a loaded older model to put up against a new one. (Like the 172 comparison) The reason I say that is, even a base new 172 is loaded with more tech than it has to be. (It's full IFR, but they don't have to build it that way) AND, in a base old plane, they would only come VFR unless you wanted the IFR pack. But I think this is why experimental is getting popular. It's cheaper, and can be as much or as little as you want. 3) You said expensive components. You can thank the lawyers and bureaucracy for that. People can sue anyone... so even people making something basic charge a lot to cover the costs of the law suit that may come. Let's face it... Garmin will sell us a stand-alone car GPS for under $100. But they want $700 for a basic "Handheld" aviation gps. Why? it's similar in size, and the parts inside aren't better. They know they can get it berceuse it's for an airplane. Anyway... thanks for the vid. It was a good way to start my morning.

Add in the FAA and the extreme cost for new aircraft certifications.

Now that you can play Microsoft Flight Simulator in full VR could also be a deterrent to those looking to learn to fly today. Of course a simulation will not capture the essence of real flying but the fact you can just fly anywhere in the world with the game in almost any type of aircraft especially in VR for - at most a few thousand $$$ for a truly decked-out setup and the cost of a gaming PC but this could easily be just a couple hundred $$ for most people.

I think if they were still building at least 10,000 planes a year the prices would be lower

All used GA aircraft come in three types; good, better and best. I have seen them all and still can't afford one.

Bug smashin puddle jumper! 15AC Aeronca is my my favorite ride. It's BS to fun ratio is really good

I’d like to make this point as well, if I want to get a kit plane and put say 1000 hours into building it myself in the end I still would get a very simple aircraft not much more avionics wise than a lot of the simple old plans discussed in he video. But it would cost me anywhere from 80 grand is for a low end light sport to 140+ and we are still talking low end nothing like a new Bonanza. It’s so expensive as a 22 year old I don’t see myself ever owning an airplane. Not even sure if it’s worth getting my license. I’m working a a glider license because that is somewhat affordable.

Max, it seems to me that back in the late 90’s to early 2000’s used aircraft were much more affordable. Today a 152 or 172 is outrageous. Do you have any data on this. Remember the $14,000 Piper Colt. What happened to these deals?

Super! Danke!

Another great video mr Subbed 10/14/23 1.18k subs

Mom and Pop airfields have just about disappeared now. The bigger the air port the bigger the parking fees and all the other services will cost.

The new Cessna models dont offer anything more than the earlier models did have a 1958 182D currently getting back into good video

It’s liability costs that really pushed GA over the edge imo.

The aircraft of 50 years ago had far more character though. The aircraft of 60 years ago even more so. Another reason for the decline in demand for new aircraft is just how long they last.

4:15 "statement of repose" . What is this? I've not heard of this. Tnx.

I watched a woman fly 1500mi in a 1940's plane with an ipad and hand held radio. Older planes don't need $15,000 in Avionics

Maintenance costs go way down if you get your A&P and IA

Got my private ticket in a $22.00 per hour wet tach C-150!

Household income is a useless stat because the size of the average household has shrunk. You can likely find Thomas Sowell explaining that here on RU-vid. Bachelor degrees makes things similarly misleading because since the seventies the percentage of the population with a degree has doubled from 20 to 40 percent. Add in the great sort, and you have families with two degrees making big bucks while people trying to have a traditional family with zero degrees cannot hope to compete. This war on the poor was not caused by wealthy people conspiring unless by wealthy people you mean liberal and progressive politicians and academics. Not exactly what the media tells the lower middle class is the story. Glass cockpits are cheaper to make today than steam gauge ones. The comparison to the 172 should be the DA40. If Cessna had to be like auto and other manufacturers and upgrade their safety to modern standards we could likely bend things in the right direction because going to flight school would mean renting a modern plane and we’d be making higher volumes of modern planes. We killed it with many, many things. We need the FAA certification system completely overhauled and the manufacturers then need to be forced to upgrade safety.

Income isn't the only indicator of middle class decline, cost of middle class lifestyle has far outpaced income.

You getting a free dozen cylinders when you buy any cirrus nowadays, basically BOGO engines

Yes, it's economy of scale (think about a contemporary CPU - infinitely more complex and difficult to design, but ships by millions and the cost spreads out into nothingness). However, there's another factor - the undying desire of people to fly against all financial sense and any kind of rational judgement. The reason $400k Cessna 172 is even in the picture is because flight schools are able to charge $100k for poorly training people who will have to build hours for years afterwards to get a job with what could be a $30k starting salary (or no job at all depending on the economy's cycle at the time). Don't underestimate human stupidity, it's the main driving factor of most things that don't make sense. General aviation certainly doesn't.

Financial cost, outlandish!

Hold on there. I know of a number of active planes that have nothing to do with insurance. Insurance is a completely misleading subject here. The biggest cost is usually tie down or hangar costs. More affordable airports are the answer. Everybody wants a plane. Nobody wants an airport. With no airports, guess what?

new kids have NO money or interest in flying. They want to sit home and play video games.

@Pilotsandpropwash-me6vq >>> Great video...👍