-Unmasking -Recording "Lick It Up" -Problems with Vinnie -M-TV Taken from: Gene Simmons - Kiss and Make Up Paul Stanley - Face the Music: A Life Exposed
They were paying Vinnie $500 a week. He asked for more and they let him walk. Imagine being in Kiss and making $26K a year. My first job in 1987 paid slightly less than that. A journeyman carpenter at the time was making more than Vinnie.
@74 torino Do you understand what a contract dispute is? It's an argument over money. They offered him a contract. That means they wanted him in the band. He didn't agree to the terms of the contract(that means they weren't offering enough money)so he walked away.
KISS were dead in the water until Vinnie came along. He co-wrote 8 of 10 songs on LIU. He not only saved KISS, he brought them back to a platinum selling band. They should have given him anything he wanted.
@74 torino All Vinnie wanted was to be a full member of the band, rewarded for his contributions and not treated like a hired gun who just plays guitar. When he became a full time member he wanted a better deal and they wouldn't have it, they argued on tour and eventually let him go after treating him like shit on the tour. The guy had to stand in the corner and only come to the middle for solos, only Gene and Paul could be center stage lol. They even offered him way more money to come back and do the next leg of the tour but still wouldn't agree to let him be a full member and benefit from his contributions. The guy wrote on most of Lick It Up. He's credited so much because they mostly used Vinnie's demos for material and just wrote new lyrics for them by Gene or Paul. The original songs from scratch on there Vinnie contributed to most of them, Lick It up, All Hells Breaking Loose and Exciter. The only stuff he didn't work on were a couple of Gene filler tracks picked from his home demos. They continue to not give him any credit for how well the album did and explain it all away as buzz from taking their make up off, they tear him apart like they do almost everyone they ever worked with that didn't follow their orders and wanted money and credit from KISS. They should have paid Vinnie what he wanted and maybe the rest of the 80's wouldn't need to be filled with cheesy Desmond Child lyrics.
Some mock Vinnie Vincent, but the fact is that his genius is what saved Kiss. Without him and Eric Carr, Kiss would have ended before Creatures of The Night. At the historic Kiss show at Maracanã, with their biggest audience, Vinnie Vincent was as admired as the other members. Gene Simmons complained about the long solos, but in Brazil, the hundreds of thousands of Kiss fans and opponents alike recognized Kiss musically only because of Vinnie Vincent and Eric Carr's solos. Vinnie Vincent and Eric Carr were geniuses, and all fans need to recognize and respect them. It is also worth noting that Kiss abandoned their masks, and in this difficult phase, Vinnie Vincent and Eric Carr provided the instrumental base of Kiss at this crucial moment.
Eric Carr was a great drummer that was fit for the heavier style that Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley chose to embrace. Vinnie Vincent's songwriting skills got him in KISS. As a guitar player he wasn't any better than any other shredder. He never "saved" KISS, though. Vinnie couldn't save his own ass if he tried. It's not as if KISS depended on him to get ahead. Actually, soon after Gene and Paul fired Vinnie they found a much better guy to work with in every sense: Bruce Kulick. As for the Rio show, there were in excess of 130,000 people in attendance. Most didn't even hear the band right, because the local PA system was weak, and most saw what looked like ant-sized action figures under beams of light. Most of the folk had no idea who the band members were. KISS had a reaonable fan base in Brazil at the time, but a lot of people bought tickets because the shows were very well promoted, and that included massive payolla for radio stations to play "I Love it Loud", and a promotional interview on Globo TV's popular Sunday evening program. Again, mind you, a lot of people had never heard of KISS before, and obviously weren't able to tell Vinnie from Ace or Eric from Peter.
@Coogan Vinnie cowrote three songs on Creatures and played on numerous tracks (From wikipedia ): "Vinnie Vincent - lead guitar on "Keep Me Comin'", "Danger" and "War Machine"; all guitars on "Saint and Sinner", "I Love It Loud" and "Killer" "
The Lick It Up show was my very first KISS concert. Radio City Music Hall, NYC and Accept opened. I was too young to see the original KISS and I had a better chance of winning the lottery than my dad taking me to a KISS show. So what if KISS took off the makeup? It was still the band (with the obvious changes), but I didn't care. I never sat down once during the concert. I was just so proud my band was back.
What I think.. IMO. Vinnie is the guy who put the much needed Heaviness back into KISS. As a kid, Alive 2 was that! I often wondered who this 'Vincent Cusano ' guy was while reading the linear notes on COTN. And since I was living in the Bahamas,with no readily available rock press.I wandered just how ,- Ace was suddenly like unmentioned but just killing it suddenly!(?) Then I got a copy of Hit Paraders "83 top 100 bands - or something like that. And NOPE! No Ace! But there was Vinnie Wiz Vincent, teeth clenched Fists curled up, in make up. Creatures was great.Lick it up was brilliant.What changed...hmmmm.
Anyone who was lucky enough to attend any of the COTN or LIU tours knows that with Eric & Vinnie it was a supercharged version of KISS that was hitting on all cylinders. KISS destroyed their original fan base with the oversaturation of the 4 Solo Albums & the 3 albums that followed, on top of that they lost almost all radio air play in rock markets with Dynasty, Unmasked & The Elder. It's no wonder album sales & concert attendance was disappointing for COTN & LIU because the fan base was gone & they had little or no rock radio air play. IMO they should have tried to do another album with Vinnie & followed it up with a Live Album & a Concert Video. There's some debate about whether Vinnie saved KISS or not but the truth either way was KISS ( Paul & Gene ) screwed Vinnie over bad.
Kidding?.I actually did see kiss with miss Vincent .. What a hot mess ..carr could not keep time...Vanessa was everywhere all over the place playing garbage a hundred miles an hour...no wonder they fired her
@Richard Lawson They fired Vincent when he quit the band & didn't return to record Animalize. Vinnie, at that time, was recording what would be the demos for the first Vinnie Vincent Invasion Album with Hirsch Gardner ( drummer ). Hirsch has gone on record several times that Gene Simmons called Vinnie at the recording studio several times, begging him to come back to KISS & they'd work it all out. Vinnie had had enough, he wasn't coming back to KISS & refused to take any more phone calls from Gene. KISS did fire him, but it was after he'd left/quit the band. As far as Eric Carr's tempo, yes, he played fast, but if that wasn't what Paul & Gene wanted, they would have put a stop to it right away.
Lick it Up , Memphis Tn was my first concert. I was 13 and I loved it. The midsouth colluseum was about half full but the crowd was into it and so was the band. It was a good night.
Lick It Up in NYC was my very first KISS concert. I never saw KISS in makeup because I really never had a job before to buy a ticket, and my dad would rather bet his weekly paycheck on a horse at the racetrack than take me to see KISS. I knew it wasn't the band I grew up with. But I know all bands change for one reason or another. I didn't care. My band was back and I was damn proud to see the return of KISS.
I was at that Memphis show too. My 2nd KISS concert. A lot of kids from my 8th grade class were there as well...some that even hated KISS just a couple years earlier. Taking off the makeup, while I didn't like that move, was the shot in the arm they needed. It was time.
Not for the Innocent is a demonic Vin extravaganza! The opening riff is sinister AF! The intro to Vin's wailing solo pans across the stereo spectrum like a runaway freight train and Gene's vocal is the sh*t.
@@imarriedabrkfsttaco3737 Yes! Not for the Innocent is my favorite song on this album and I just never get tired of listening to Vinnie's killer solo on that song. I get goosebumps every time I listen to that solo on high volume !
While we can both likely agree that it says nothing about the personal value of Vinnie OR Paul, it is probably a form of projection in the form of insecurity like you said. I used to have problems projecting my insecurities onto others, as it was easier to do that than look inwards (for me, it was weight, or losing my hair).
I'm so glad that they went that way during the 1980s, Lick it Up was to me a great album , I feel they still made great music during that time it was during my Jr high and high school years when I was listening to everything I couldn't wait for the next video that came out so I could go out and buy that album 😁
Paul and Gene should thank Vinnie, Eric Carr,Bruce, Mark, Tommy and Eric Singer for helping KISS stand through the test of time. Instead they shit all over every member except themselves.
Gene and Paul can say what they want about Vinnie Vincent, but none of us was there during the sessions or concert rehearsals, etc., so how do we really know? I remember the guitar work was really sharp and intricate during Lick It Up and Creatures of the Night. In terms of art, Ace as a guitarist was a painter and Vinnie was a sculptor.
What a world this would have been if “Runaway” got Gene to quit music and become the Ron Perlman of Hollywood film villains. 😆. Glad he stayed with KISS!
Lick it Up was the most 80's of all the 80's unmasked KISS era albums in a sense , this was another heavy metal band far from the KISS Love GUN era , ironically , this era was the most radio played KISS music of them all
Vinnie never signed a contract. That's why Gene and Paul always say he was never really a member. The contract was garbage, and Vinnie should have declined, as he did. But this all took place after he already contributed a huge part of two entire albums. He was highly peeved. And they knew they were giving him the screws. He rejected contract after contract. His reasoning for holding out for a better deal was that he had been largely responsible for resurrecting the band. And he was right. He was also a diva. And that got worse later. But when he was in KISS, Paul was THE diva. No diva shall come before him. He felt that Gene and himself were the only ones who had a stake, since they were all that remained of what they had originally created. They were right about that part, but they totally took a crap on Vinnie. They would have been history around '84 without Vincent Cusano. Look up his 'Warrior' demos. Half of the LIU album is sprinkled throughout - a good while before LIU was even a thought. Both sides were arrogant. But Vinnie had a case - he saved the band. Paul and Gene should love him, if only for that. What a crazy-toxic environment they inspire. Love these guys, but I know who they are. ✌
And Vinnie had done what since? Seriously, like it or not Paul and Gene were 1000% right on Vinnie, Ace and Peter. It has been proven time after time. And they were right on Tommy, and Eric. They still sell out massive shows, even as time has taken a toll on their bodys and Pauls voice.
No doubt Vinnie's songwriting stabilized the band but Lick it Up sold three times the amount of Creatures because the makeup came off. Neither album is THAT much better than the other
COTN isn't a good album. It's a great album. Top 3 in kiss catalog. Up until 1983 I owned every kiss album. The elder sucked and turned me off to the band. Which was weird cuz it was 3 albums In a row that weren't good. So I looked at other rock bands. I was in a record store and COTN had just been released and I remember saying nope. Not buying it. Then I love it loud video was on MTV. And I went back and bought it. I was 13. Then I listened and said, that ain't ace. No way. And I was right. And I still listen to it to this day. It's that good.
Hmmm.....Gene and Paul sure seem to have "problems" with their bandmates no matter whom they are. Just perhaps.....Gene and Paul are the fucking problem.
The makeup may have been an issue but the real reason lick it up did better than creatures is because your singles on that record were pop metal/pop rock.
Kiss did hair metal a lot better than most actual hair metal bands did. Paul was right when he ripped into hair metal and said most of it was garbage made by talentless preening pretty boys. Very few hair metal bands were actually good.
i disagree they looked like the 35 year old guy still trying hang out at the frat house. trying to dress and look like the bands that were 10 years younger than them
@@bb-gc2tx yeah I see your point. Kiss started to resemble Spinal Tap. But most of the music they made during that period was better than most hair metal. 90 percent of hair metal bands are either forgotten or remembered only by fans and almost all.of them were really generic
I remember awaiting the video for lick it up in nervous anticipation at the age of 12, then when I saw them, I said, who the heck are these guys ?......😂
"Creatures" was a great album. It had the very hard job of coming in during a transitional "WTH is going on with this band?" period. But became a fan fav ever since. The "Unplugged" really helped to renew interest in that album I was around during that show and Paul took everyone to church on "I Still Love You". Then, Ace and Peter was surreal for us long time fans. "Lick It Up" had that kick in the door vibe, I expect from a New York band. They still had that energy. Whatever your opinion of Vinnie Vincent is, your entitled to that. Vinnie had a big part in kicking that door back open.
Keep this in mind: Vinnie was already caught making up fake profiles on guitar discussion pages, of course posing as Vinnie fans and always saying how good he is.
Funny listening to Gene here, Shannon and the kids really change him, it took a while but listen to him now, he probably is a bit embarrassed how he was
IMHO: Vinnie was the absolutely most talented Lead player in KISS. IMHO: Though he wasn't the virtuoso that Vinnie was, Punky Meadows (Angel) would have been a perfect fit!
Completely disagree with Paul on this. Musically Creatures was a way better album and the makeup version with the new character was just fine, but in the end only the music matters. The 80’s sounding kiss after creatures was just meh. Taking the makeup off to satisfy the mtv producers and flavor of the day viewer mob , that’s a money grab , and that can be fine , but don’t pretend that it had any influence in if the record was good or better. Album sales are as much about the pop mob mentality as the musical quality. Kiss without the makeup just be Jane kiss looking silly as an 80’s hair metal band. But when I listed to the albums , I want seeing them and the music just was meh. But then didn’t live the US based MTV lifestyle. There was no mtv in most of the world (eg Germany) and in the US I had better things to do that watch MTV in the mid to late 80’s. The album cover might help sell the album but the music was what mattered. With tiny cassette covers the goofy hair band cover photos didn’t matter so much but the music still was only meh. We will never know what would have been if kiss stayed with the makeup. Well except that the core fans were still there in 95-97 when the self delusion in the band wore off after the wasted decade. That opening sequence of the Lick It Up music video is just embarrassing. Even to this day. Every time I see it I feel that visual farce trying to undermine the great rock song that is Lick it Up. Shudder.
KISS' #1 GOAL after 1979 was to stay relevant in order to keep makin all that money$$$$ and keep that lifestyle. They had no soul after 79. Vinnie n Eric Carr gave them some of that back, but G n P were too stupid n still too out of touch to see it. They fired VV n soon planned to get rid of Carr. Lick It Up n Creatures are their last 2 great albums bc of the collaborations between Vinnie, Paul, (pantera pun), Gene, Vinnie, n Carr... Shoulda stuck with this great lineup. They once again made stupid decisions.. Asylum aint bad, but it's bc of Eric Carr. He sets the tone at the very beginning on King of the Mountain..and it's Kulick's debut, and gotta say, Kulick sounds pretty fkng good on Asylum. His tone is killer on Trial by Fire... But it was all downhill after that.. And Animalize was very dissappointing after Vinnie left :( It was lame compared to LIU n Creatures. 3rd n 4th fkng guitarists on Animalize. The show was so lame too: gene had an obvious horrible wig n dressed like an idiot with eye makeup on, and paul talkin like a fkng moron n prancing around like a drag queen.. It wasn't very cool at all. and I've never liked Kulick playin classic KISS. He sucks. Compare him VV playin claSSic KISS, and Creatures n LIU stuff. There's no comparison. VV n Carr n P n G could've ruled the world again, BUT even after Peter's n Ace's craziness, Vinnie was just too much to handle, I guess :( .. but Queensryche jammed that night The Warning/ Animalize tours,.. opening with "Nightrider" song from their ep! It was badass... and blah blah nlah blablah blahhhh bla. blah! blahbla
Now let’s deconstruct this, shall we? $500 run through the inflation calculator for 1983-1984 is the equivalent of $1400 in today’s money. Vinnie’s yearly earnings were the equivalent to $72,000 in today’s regards. Miss me with that shit
Yes Vinne wasn’t making MILLIONS, however Vinne was in a band on the rebound, NOT a founding member, and his salary was not bad for playing the guitar, if he would have been patient and stuck around I am sure he would be making a damn good living playing the guitar, the other current guys Tommy and Eric , after 20 years do you think their making a “living” wage… I bet their salaries have to be at minimum $500,000 to $1,000,000 a year I bet. Not bad for playing the guitar and drums…I googled Eric Car’s salary they said $4,000,000 a year….
I’m sure Vinnie was a pain in the ass but I respect him for standing up for himself. You should always try to get paid as much as you can if you deserve it 🤷♂️ Vinnie did a lot for the band and probably should have been given good royalties for his songs.
later on kiss got away with ripping off songs because they werent hits hell or hallelujah is rip off of deep purples burn and WITHIN is rip off of a billy squier song called hand me downs from his signs of life album
Paul and Gene: two out of touch multi millionaires. They might be rich but that’s it. They are selective in their memory and clearly believe their own delusions. Any rational person can see that VV was screwed over (by PS in particular who I believe was jealous of Vinnie’s talent). It’s also clear that if it were not for Vinnie’s contribution - in particular the Lick it Up album - Kiss would have folded around 84’.
also paul contradicts himself first he righfully blames downfall of band on them going soft and becoming a kiddie band with dynasty and unmasked but then he blames it on them coming up with new characters for eric and vinnie and said they should of kept original the characters makeup . lol the makeup design eric and vinnie wore had nothing to do with why album sales and concert ticket sales tanked
COTN and LIU were my 2 favorite KISS albums. Everything before that I could pretty much take it or leave it. Everything after that made me want to vomit. VV wasn't the problem, if anything, he was the improvement.
I luv Paul and im also one of the minority KISS Army alum that my favorite lineup w-producer is Vinnie ,Eric , Gene ,Paul,and Michael James Jackson ,(and keep but maintain the sonicsbof Creatures &Killers!!!thats the lineup no disrespect to the other members,but i do put mark and Peter on the bottom of personal list ,and if the disgust and disappointment of the original lineup ,and Dynasty/UnMasked,Vinny Poncia was as wrong a choice as Mark St John but that period they were like very aggressive hungry had something to prove to themselves and fans and the insanity of VV with the brains and filter of Gene and Paul was some of there absolute best work the songs from Killers ,Creatures ,and Lick it are top shelf and sonics lyrics was all on point and Still hld up 4 decades later if u disagree compare Dynasty unmasked and alot of others and they get crushed Vinnie Paul Gene and Eric were the strongest rockingest moreso mature current and could rock line up with all the of the times leaders Ac/Dc,Maiden priest ,Jovi ,etc etc and i do have ❤️🤟for Ace and Bruce ,and there eras were good but the intensity and refocused 🔥and heavyness not the Phantom of the park bs ,or shes so european, kid friendly buy our figurines and a facepaint kit for your 6&8yr olds that love rock and roll all nite!! They went off the rails letting casual only know the few radio singles /Beth fans drove them straight off to the ditch and they were assuming the controls and had two badass mfrs to help get it back on the road to redeeming and cementing there place in kisstory
Wait..... Wait.... Lick it up "sold way way better" than creatures and he thinks it's because of how they looked?!?! Gimme a fucking Break... Vinnie wrote 8 of the 10 tracks on LIU and saved their asses. Paul Stanley is a fucking jagoff.
I love kiss and Paul is one of my idols but you are 100 percent right. Vinnie made them a Fuckin band again man Vinnie was the best songwriter they had outside of Paul period
@@edguitarstanleyeisen6179 you don't have a point. Creatures did Okay, but Gene and Paul had already sabotaged KISS into oblivion with 3 consecutive fail albums (Dynasty, Unmasked, The Elder). Vinnie wrote in Creatures, but him being on it and the tour got people excited about KISS again, and they were well received on Lick it Up because of good writing. its kind of hard to stop a huge gash on your skin from bleeding with the first band aid. but Vinnie wad definitely helping KISS heal. they were at their career worst at the time of The Elder. only doing tiny little tv shows. a non existent movie, and hadn't toured the USA since 1979. its kind of hard for a person like Vinnie to "save" Kiss, but he definitely steered them in the right direction. Creatures is now a very respected album for sure.
@LadyFairChildVideo I do think and agree Vinnie saved Kiss for exactly the reasons you list here. Maybe u misinterpreted my comment because I only said " Vinnie co wrote in Creatures" and that's a fact, not a point of view at all.
22:15 Paul points out that if u look closely at the LIU vid, u can tell that the skull isn't real! It's latex! :0 all this time I thought they were real lol
Gene and Paul have been the leaders since the beginning. They failed keeping the original band together, Gene's song writing hit rock bottom in the 80's and never recovered, Paul is always blaming someone else for his decisions, whether it's who he chose to marry to who he chose to be part of the band. Listening to these two talk is like visiting the Psycho Circus. And I don't mean the album.
And they are in their 70s still selling out shows as Vinnie does what? Ace has been a little more successful, Peter does what? Sorry but they were right
Why do they always go to Turtle Boy? The next logical step for Mark St John was The Raccoon. Bruce Kulick could have been The Shark. Eric Singer The Hawk. I see so many lo$t opportunities Stan!!!
Ace should have quit KISS right after his 1978 solo album and create a new heavy band while his creativity still lasted. By the time of Ace Frehley's Comet he was burned out and haven't released anything good since then
Yeah they didnt give it time to get over with the fans ,u busted up a ten yr relationship lossing Catman And the Ace Catman was a total upgrade Vinnie if werent batshzzt crazy woulda been too he was a helluva songwriter and could play anything a virtuoso but if only the braintrust coulda reeled him in and he mellowed out what if that linup coulda lasted til hot in the shade
Gene is off by 7 years on what was later in 1999 termed Hair Metal. There was no real hair metal-ish bands, pretty bands until Slippery came out in 1987. Its been downhill ever since.
I like hearing the stories and theres no denying they worked hard at it but KISS time was well past by the 80s. Gene and Paul would have been better off focusing on other things.
Funniest thing for re. Lick it Up is... PS said "people started listening with their eyes not their ears " yet the Lick it Up ALBUM COVER HAS ALL FOUR MEMBERS standing there, WITHOUT make up. hee heee. (ps. I fukn love KISSsince 1977 before you start bitching at me)
I get a kick out of the fact that people are so quick to defend Vincent cusano. Nobody really knows what happens but Given the fact that mark slaughter had the same issues with Vinnie that kiss had a more inclined to agree that vinnievincent was a pain in. The ass to do business with and to work with.
I definitely think Vinnie getting down on his knee during the audition is corny as hell....but they seem to love to bitch at everything that slightly annoys them
I loved KISS, I grew up with KISS but by the 80s they didn't appeal to me because Iron maiden, AC DC , Judas Priest etc kicked so much and were more with the times. Even RUSH stayed relevant which is funny because Gene scoffed at them.
Kiss removing the makeup was the ultimate betrayal of their fans. It's like they were saying "the critics were right, we do look ridiculous with this makeup, and you're an idiot for being a fan".
⭕️Vinnie helped KISS compose a lot of KISS’s MOST POWERFULL MUSIC ‼️ KISS HELD THEIR OWN GROUND All the current bands at that time couldn’t knock them!! The music was just sO commanding of their RESPECT! If no vinnie , not sure how successful they would been with someone else👇🏼 That being said ,PAUL & Desmond Child turned out just as amazing material (well at least a song) that kept KISS stomping across The states with continued momentum with the heavy hitting “HEAVENS ON FIRE”!!! KISS was here to stay‼️
