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i believe . toes forward is stable ,able to side step when needed faster, and can transition into other movements faster . while the toes out anchors you place more. makin git harder for your opponent to uproot you.
Honestly I've struggled to decide on the angle of the toes for nearly all stances, not just horse stance. When I first trained some styles of Shaolin, Tai Chi and Taekwondo, I was taught to keep the toes parallel for horse stance, and even had the rear leg for back stance turned 45-60 degrees from the front. But then I noticed other styles using more open toed stances and immediately felt like the open-toed back stance is way better (more ankle mobility, more stable, easier to change direction). For horse stance, I like the variation I saw from some of the Wudang monks/priests where the front toe is pointing about 30 degrees from the front. It offers great stability and allows for quickly transitioning forward or backward. I think Bajiquan has a similar horse stance (one of my favorites) and finds a nice balance between all the variations.
The Wing Chun horse stance looks like an hourglass with the toes pointing inwards towards the centre. I am 67yrs old and have studied martial arts since I was 16, first Wing Chun for 15yrs, followed by WTF TKD reaching 3rd dan and am now a newish Shotokan student holding a 4th kyu! A TKD 8th dan who recommended Tai Chi as a supplement to TKD training once told me that all martial arts are 90% the same. The 10% differences are the techniques that a particular art stresses, the 90% that bonds them is relaxation and breathing. such wise words I believe!
I also train Shotokan, and always use my toes pointing forward in kiba dachi. But I find it harder on the knees than when I keep my toes at a 45 angle.
There are so many places where people practice without knowing the kata explanation or the bunkai. It's like a forgotten language. Amazing video and very informative.
I mentioned this in the chat earlier, but fun fact: It's not that Matsubayashi-ryu's horse stance is different from Shotokan's (I mean, ours is higher and less wide--but the foot placement is the same: parallel, like yours). Rather, in Passai, we use an entirely different stance from our regular horse stance. First thing's first, we call our horse stance by a different name. You call yours "kibadachi," we call ours "naihanchi-dachi" (and as you might guess, it's most commonly seen in the kata series Naihanchi [Shodan through Sandan]. Second thing: what you see there is a different stance entirely: "Jigotai-dachi"--our open-legged stance. Sort of like a higher, and more relaxed version of Shiko-dachi.
Sensei moves are so simple and yet relaxed and effective, so energy saving and efficient. As a Shotokan practitioner, it's so refreshing and enlightening to see that. Also the bunkai, there is a practical and effective meaning for every move. That's something that is lacking in modern Shotokan, to much emphasis on form that led to a lose of meaning and purpose. You're doing a great job in your research, Yasuke San! Domo arigato gozaimasu!
I did Kobayashi Shorin-ryu for 9 year and Passai sho was my favorite kata. The toes pointing alittle outward seemed alittle more natural especially from moving from one stance to another. You are very wise to learn other ways of doing the same kata .
Well done on documenting your experiences of Matsubayashiryu at the Shinzato Dojo. I look forward to hearing your reflections of your experience, and to following your further journey of exploration in Okinawa Karate.
@@KarateDojowaKu you are welcome. Actually I have to thank you for putting your energy into your videos and finally sharing them. This is the very positive side of the digital globalization where people can share experiences and knowledge and discuss them with other enthusiasts.
@@toddward6094Since Mabuni was a notorious collector of so many different Katas, it seems to be very likely. Interestingly, the Shito-Ryu version looks still almost the same as the Passai in this video, even though they are separated not only by style but also by time since when the kata was taught to Mabuni and to Matsubayashi. Other Katas underwent way more changes since then.
Oh man, I saw this video for the first time today and I am deeply impressed; beautiful, very aesthetic, and desirable. Maybe in 10 years, I will make it by then, too.
Keep in mind that this demonstration pertains to omote bunkai. There are several places where the honto involves joint locks and throws. For instance, the wari uke can be used to prevent an opponent from grabbing you. The uraken then target the collar bones on either side of the neck (I prefer to alter them as forearm smashes against the neck). Grabbing the lapels, the pushing and pulling of the following oi-zuke (chasing punch) can then be seen as a throw/takedown.
The kata look good. It definitely a mix up of the two styles. Because you been doing Shotokan for so long your movements have that shotokan feel to it.
I am a very, very beginner in karate ... I watch with wondering the sensei... light and easy.... every movement has own function.. :O fantastic... For me, the basic movements are still difficult ... 😑but with practicing i will survive this 🙂 I wish holy Christmas and happy new year all together!
Shinzato Sensei describes an interesting bunkai application by stepping on an attacker's foot in the opening charge. It is not one that I've practiced before, so I look forward to implementing this idea!
I remember the first time sparring my Sensei one of the first things that he did was to lightly step on my foot. I didn't notice it until I tried to move. Three things then happened almost at once. First I was confused because I couldn't understand at first why I couldn't move. Second I was hit by my Sensei.Third was him laughing at me. This was back in the early 80"s. Back then we were allowed to leg sweep, hip throw, strike the back, and grab the opponent while kicking or punching them. Karate training was a lot different then than what I see being taught now.
Excellent comparison video! I wish there were more of these. Bassai Dai was my sentei kata when I tested for Shodan back in 1984. Wow, I am getting old!
Regarding the difference in horse stance, i feel that the shotokan way is a stronger stance, however Matsu feels more comfortable, and gives less strain on the outer knee. Another great video!
wonderful insightys into the bunkai thank you Master Shinzato! . i noticed the difference in the kata ..between his relaxed Matsubayashi movements and your shotokan movments .
As a 4th Dan in Matsubayashi Ryu, it was a very interesting video to watch to see the suttle differences from how I practise to how you were instructed. I love the videos keep it up. I always learn something from your content. What's your opinion on this style of Karate?
Feet angled out might give some standing defence support however I would think having your feet parallel in a horse riding stance would be more efficient in turning your feet quickly.
I believe the reason you feel more comfortable in kibadachi with toes pointed forward, if that's what you were trained in. With the toes turned outward in a shikodachi, there is less strain on the knees. I learned the first when I was younger and the latter as I grew older. My knees appreciate the change. No I actually feel more balanced with the toes turned outward
The shiko dachi with the toes out at angles (like the sumo stance) allows for mobility while the kiba dachi with the feet forward ,like in Naihanchi, locks you in. They both have advantages and disadvantages. Which one you use would depend on the situation and what you want to accomplish. I think it is good to have as many tools available as possible and practice both. It is just a way of utilizing body mechanics to achieve a desired outcome.
Toes angled outward for jigotai (horse stance). The reason for this is to avoid excessive tension on the ankles in wider stances. Toes parallel for Naihanchi dachi because it is narrower than the kiba dachi of other schools while teaching the same outward pressure in the legs.
To move purposely is why i deeply respect old school martial arts, it's just like a forgotten part of it. Sometimes you just do those move in a street fight just because it's a natural thing to do, but Kata gives it more options to follow up it's actually a priviledge to learn it.
I noticed at least other differences : Shoto Uke - Shotokan closes all fingers, Matsubayashi spreads all fingers. And at 4:48, the sensei has his upper fist parallel (yoko) to the lower, but your fist is in Shotokan Tate style.
Horse stance with toes pointed diagonally is called Shiko Dachi. Shiko Dachi is way less stressful to the knee joints. Tomari Passai is one of the oldest if not THE oldest of the 13 Passai variants out there. Passai, Naifanchi and Kusanku are the 3 most fundamental Kata for Shorin Ryu. At least for this branch of Shorin Ryu that is based on Naifanchi. For the branch of Shorin Ryu that is based on Seisan (famous practioners of this brach are Sensei Onaga and Sensei Shimabokuro) it is a bit different.
In my style, this is Tomari Bassai. I'm learning this kata right now :D There are a lot of small differences--too may to mention here, but it's nearly identical.
I think toes out 45 degrees is more natural. We also do horse stance with the feet parallel as you do. There is a movie called “Silk & Steel” I think. It is about a Canadian who travels to China to study Kung-Fu. It is a documentary. At one point the Kung-Fu Master asks the guy to do his horse stance. Then the Master pushes him from the front and the guy flies back. Then the Master tells him, “Forget everything you know about horse stance!” LOL. It’s a good movie..
In Goju we are taught that in shiko-dachi, the toes point in the same direction as the thighs, so that your knees are not stressed by the rotation of the foreleg. Theoretically this prevents ACL injuries etc. However, I know that lots of styles do "toes forward" with parallel feet, and their knees are not regularly exploding! I think kung-fu especially insists on this (I know very little about kung-fu). I think we all probably prefer the way we learned it first. No one else cooks like your mom, right?
I think it depends on what the stance is for. Stances that emphasize stability and rootedness moreso than movement potential (like Shotokan's kibadachi/our [Matsubayashi-ryu's] naihanchi-dachi, the kung fu horse stance, or sanchin-dachi) tend to keep the feet parallel, or even turned inward a bit. Stances like jigotai-dachi and certain forms of shiko-dachi are meant for more external purposes (i.e.: dynamic movement and tai-sabaki/body shifting), which means you'll want to keep the knees open.
I was initially taught that Kiba Dachi (Horse Stance) was toes forward. Shiko Dachi was toes at 45 degrees. However, in the Shorin Ryu school I'm now in, Kiba Dachi and Shiko Dachi BOTH have toes at 45 degrees. But the angle of your body is different. I like them being different.
It seems there's some confusion about naihanchi, kiba dachi, and shiko dachi. In shito ryu we use "horse stance"/kiba dachi with our feet on a 45 degree angle pointing outwards. -Purple Belt
Of the three Passai katas in Shorin Ryu I think this is similar to Koryu Passai the most, although it has some differences in stances or hand positions. We have two other Passai Katas, Itosu no Passai ~ Passai Sho and Matsumura no Passai ~ Passai Dai, but the sequence of both of these is very different to the Matsubayashi Ryu Passai, so I guess this is actually the Koryu Passai equivalent.
I've trained in chito ryu karate cant find much on line of this style. Yes chito ryu not shito ryu, also shotokan karate. The bassai kata in this video is very similar to chito ryu bassai kata i learned as a kid.
I've literally just commented about this in the last video, but this one really made me chuckle after realizing how much it has in common with kung fu (especially with hung gar). Quite surprised by some interpretations that differ from kung fu even when the movement is pretty similar, but as jesse has already said, many movements may have way more than one only applicable utility. Nevertheless, it's been really insightful!
In the end the way the toes go in a horse stance don't quite matter simply because it is a training stance, much like zenkutsu dachi or shiko dachi within kata for the most part. What matters is how you utilize those stances to keep and achieve balance when your subconscious takes over and you shorten them up to create natural self defenses in a fight. I think what everyone should be asking right now is: You don't want to post the kusanku video because??? Shinzato Sensei definitely has shown you A LOT here in just these videos. You being fortunate enough to have all the footage I highly suggest that you go back to these many years from now to study them. You are going to see so much more of what he was throwing down that at the sprite age of 24 (誕生日おめでとう) you did not pick up. As my teacher always says its a maturity issue that only time can remedy and as long as you keep researching and studying what is the art. がんばれ永野先生。
Overall, I like the Shotokan Bassai much better. I feel to really appreciate Passai, I would need to see a much younger skilled person do it because many of the moves here do not look powerful enough or functional to me. It looks much better when you do it.
Maybe I have a Wado bias, but I absolutely hate kiba-dachi. I don't understand why it is done. Naihanchi-dachi connects me to the floor, but I can't say the same for kiba-dachi. Perhaps you can explain kiba-dachi to me.
Sorry, but I just LOVE how these guys keep trying to justify anything like a "reinforced block"!! I mean, he had you attack from like six feet or more away!!
The Okinawan version of Naihanchi Is more powerful than it’s Japanese counterpart ..Okinawan Karate is not a sport ,and such the training is more practical than Japanese Karate ..The stances in Okinawan Karate are more natural and not as deep as Japanese Karate ,as is geared for streets ..
