Pianos Formerly Known as "Steinways" Steinway and Sons 

As a piano technician, I can say that our community universally despises Steinway for their militaristic attempts at regulating the market. If this is the demise of their name on instruments, then good riddance.

In 1997 I selected a Studio Grand by 'ear' (and feel/action) and purchased a new Pramberger (built at Young Chang). I later learned the history of the Pramberger family. Joseph spent 29 years at Steinway & Sons, where he developed his skills, first as an apprentice, then as a Design and Project Engineer, then as Vice President of Manufacturing. He started his own company in 1987, and then joined Young Chang in 1995. Unfortunately, Joseph passed away in 2003. I continue to feel fortunate to have found a Piano I love to play, and be played. Glad to hear that others are continuing the art.

Great discussion as always! As with most issues, there is more than one side . Of course, there will be unscrupulous rebuilders who use cheap parts, do a substandard rebuild, and attempt to capitalize on the Steinway name by labelling their rebuild with Steinway fallboard decals. We all get that. However, Steinway clearly couldn't care less about all of the high end rebuilders who do work as good, if not better, than Steinway's own restoration department. One of the best restorers in the business has someone working for them who had previously worked for Steinway for 30 years making soundboards, pinblocks, and bridges. Is one of their rebuilt pianos any less of a Steinway now because he made the soundboard at their facility rather than at Steinway? Yet Steinway wants to call any piano with a rebuilt soundboard, bridge, or pinblock as a "Steinwas". The argument has no credibility in my opinion. You hit on the most important point for any prospective buyer looking at a rebuilt piano vs. new--listen to it. Know who the rebuilder is, what their methods are, and what their reputation is. There are many opportunities to get a superior product at a much lower cost than new, but as always, the buyer has to do the legwork.

I had no idea about this. Thanks for filling me in!

The problem is not if I'm willing to buy a piano with an empty fall board. The problem is if a piano has a Steinway logo on the fall board then I won't buy it.

I've got an 1898 Steinway that originally had a badly scratched walnut case but was finished in black in the 1980s. It still sounds great and I love playing it.

When you are buying an instrument that costs almost as much as my families home with five acres, a pond 3000 sqft main house a shop, open bay garages and an apartment with a double bay hobby shop I would hope it would be serviceable as an personally own-able item. This is like Apple's right to repair PROBLEMS except your Iphone costs a quarter of a million dollars.

I personally feel Steinway pianos are highly over priced. There are others competitors out there equally match the Steinway quality and sound...

Thank you James! This is so interesting and informative! Keep up the good work!

They have been successful in the past at controlling the market and the perception of their brand. But times change. Not only have other's innovated while Steinway have stood still but the internet has meant that the dissemination of information has reached many ears. Slowly and by degrees, Steinway are writing their own demise. Their anti-competitive behaviour not only turns off fair minded people but it reduces their capacity to produce market leading instruments.

Steinway is an excellent piano. The trouble is, in recent decades the people who run it have become convinced that Steinway is the ONLY excellent piano, and that is simply not true.

I love this informative videos on events of the piano industry

Good job reporting on these "Has-beens" at Steinway. Their time in the sun has long been over due to the arrogance, indifference and shoddiness of product. "And a new King rose up in Egypt who knew not Joseph." Long live Mason and Hamlin, Bosendorfer, Baldwin and Fazioli. I am having my 1959 Knabe Concert Grand restored. It has a Renner action and Renner hammers, and a solid Sitka Spruce soundboard. Sounds better than any new Steinway already.

It feels appalling to me that Steinway would work on the piano that had the nasty buzzing and ship it back in the same condition without playing it to make sure that they had fixed the problem. And with varnish drips. Shame on them! Greed always takes over common sense and honesty down the road. Thanks for your wise opinions and expertise.

I have a love-hate relationship with Steinway. I learned on my great-grandmother's immaculately kept Steinway from the 1920s so it's a very sentimental brand for me, and it set the base for my expectations of what a piano should sound and feel like. But how the company acts now is repulsive to me. Steinway claims their new pianos are just as good or better than their old ones, and that nothing has changed in quality, but I know better. I can feel the difference (and it's not just the ivory, though I know the lack of ivory is a weird tactile issue I have to always take into account with modern pianos because every piano I've had up until recently had ivory or bone keys, so the plastic is an adjustment) and if they really stood by their word that new Steinways were the same or even better quality as the old ones, they wouldn't be so upset about the rebuilds and old ones that are on the market and doing everything in their power to delegitimize them. Steinway is trying to destroy the market for old Steinways because as you said, Steinway's biggest competition is their older pianos; pianos that are vastly superior when put up against their new ones, despite all the company's cries to the contrary. It's almost pitiful to see the lengths they go to in order to basically tell the consumer "just trust *US* and buy a brand new one" and I wouldn't trust their rebuilds for an average, non-vault-worthy Steinway at all since their end-goal seems to be to get people to stop wanting the old ones and buy the new ones. Maybe I'm paranoid, but I'd suspect they'd more than likely muck it up just to prove their point that their old ones are just "over-hyped"

I'm glad I've been hangin' around here for a while. I'll be 79 soon and I had hoped to buy a great piano with a player feature to entertain me. I'm weary of the internet, too old to fly anymore and get little out of medical practice anymore. Thanks for opening my eyes.

Excellent information, JPS. I respect your prognostications of what it may mean for the Steinway & Sons brand (and who wants to ship their piano from Ohio to New York, not like the repair, and have to ship it back to New York if you are not satisfied with their work).👍🎹

This sounds like the story of Bass Pro Shops all over. A hedge fund mogul bought controlling interest in Bass Pro, and then forced an unwanted merger with Cabella's, another similar brand of outdoor products. He wrecked a whole town, hurt both brands, and made off with a few million dollars, just because he could. It sounds like Steinway is helping to hasten their own demise. The old pianos will become more valuable when "Chine-way" debuts.

A brand new "A" I recently tried had a mega light action/downweight. This seems to be a new trend making dynamic variation and phrase sculpting a challenge. I treasure my golden age Steinway M, 1917 (rebuilt). It plays circles around that A.

It’s like having a Porsche resprayed by a third party and then not being allowed to call it a Porsche, it’s ridiculous.

The state college I went to is now doing what they call an "All Steinway Initiative", where the college is paying tons of money to lease and then buy "Steinway" pianos, but they are actually "Boston by Steinway". The "Initiative" is a national if not global campaign, so it's weird that they're willing to flood the market with inferiors products that nominally have their name on them, and try to un-name older quality pianos. I don't know much about new pianos, but the "Boston"s sound terrible and the action seems bad as well (I'm not much of a piano player, but almost any old upright I play plays better than one of these). It reminds me of when I was young and Apple tricked our school system into buying a fleet of inferior computers (iMacs) just because they offered similar leasing and purchasing assistance.

This is great news! Might actually be able to afford one of these one day now...

Such great information!!! And the song is “Speechless” Aladdin 2019

This is a fascinating video, even though there is a lot of guessing and hypotheticals mixed in with your opinions. A. Steinway corporate can stuff it. They bully artists and concert halls into ONLY using Steinway through payola and sweetheart deals. B. True. Biggest competition to a new Steinway is an independently rebuilt one. Lets face it...there are plenty of techs out there making a whole lot more money that some factory worker in New York. Not to diminish them or the quality of the product, but the techs to equally as well and can be happy reselling at half the price that Steinway will charge. Pick up an M for 5K, put 5K labor and parts, sell for 35 to 30K. Not a bad profit for a few weeks pay. C. I seriously doubt the logo is going to affect the price that much from a craftsman at the top of their game. Serious musicians can appreciate the quality. D. Your story on the soundboard is simply hypothesis. I won't believe nor necessarily disbelieve, but I have my doubts to its authenticity. E. Seriously Steinway? Your rebuilding and overall reputation may rely on 130 year history, but technology has you beat. Anyone of us can photograph and reprint a decal OR better yet, have one hand painted on for the right price. Good luck tracking THAT violation down. Now where is that Mason and Hamlin BB I've been looking for??

I find this discussion really interesting. On the one hand, I can understand a manufacturer wanting to protect their brand name; on the other, once the warranty on my Hyundai Sonata runs out, I'll be taking the car to my local mechanic who is honest, trustworthy, and highly knowledgeable, to repair as he sees fit with whatever parts he thinks are best, but I will still consider the car a Hyundai Sonata. So how is that any different from using the best available parts of whatever origin to restore a Steinway? On a somewhat related side-note, I recently listened to a CBC radio interview with the technician responsible for looking after Glenn Gould's Steinway, which is now in their "Q" studio. The piano was built in New York in 1938, but when they had it restored (in the nineties, I think), they sent it to Berlin. I wonder why Berlin and not New York, where it was made? On an completely unrelated side note, here is a link to a series of photos in today's Guardian, excerpted from a series by photographer Romain Thiery on abandoned pianos in derelict buildings. I find these photos extremely moving. What's your reaction? www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2019/aug/10/abandoned-pianos-in-derelict-buildings-in-pictures Sincerely, Randy Thiessen

mason and risch will always be my favorite! lets get a shout out for the great canadian brands that are no longer with us

It's all about the sound in my opinion. If you have an instrument that sounds and feels good to play, you have a good instrument

Can we hear the buzzing sounds? Also, can you make a video of behind the scenes?

My fear is just the opposite - a lot of older Steinway’s with great restoration potential will be junked simply because without the logos and decals the technician or company won’t be able to recoup the costs of repairs. Steinway does offer a very expensive “certification” course that, once completed, makes the technician an official Steinway restorer. I’ve heard (not sure it’s accurate) that this course costs over $100,000, which would only be possible for a large house like Lindeblad or some place similar.

There seems there could be an opportunity for these rebuilders to earn a name as significant as Singer have with their rebuilt and redesigned Porsche 911s. Highly sought after, and at least $500 000, which is more than most brand new Porsches. singervehicledesign.com

James, Good points....Given excellent materials, no matter the brand, It's the skill of the builder/re-builder that creates the instrument. You know every piano or guitar or whatever has it's own"personality", so the sound one wants to achieve is subjective, not objective. There is something special that goes into creating a wonderful piano, some have it and some don't. You know what you want in a piano,but even then, some music works better on different instruments, so buying one is always a compromise. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to perform on pianos sympathetic to a specific composer? Cheers, Rik Spector P.S. Looking forward to the new cover.

The,piano,performance,verygood,forever,thanks,foryour,sharing👍🍎🌷🍊🐬

In would especially wish to buy a very fine piano with no brand name on it . If it becomes extremely affordable . SOUND, PLAYABILITY & DURABILITY is what really matters to me .personally. In a recording no one can see a brand name. A museum is not necessarily a best studio ...

What about alterations in software on their Steinway models, e.g Pianoteq? ;)

James, please note as well that the words rebuild and rebuilt do not have standard definitions in the piano trade. The work that might have been done to one piano might be different from what was done to another piano and they both could be called rebuilt. This is one more reason to play any piano you are considering and make sure you are happy before taking it home.

JIM WHAT MAKE ,MODEL OF PIANO DO YOU PLAY. WAS IT NEW OR REBUILT. HOW DO U FIND OUT WHO IS A GOOD PIANO REBUILDER. THANKS

What if the decal is a brass plate?

I’m thinking of a “young” piano is rebuilt and the same problem occurs - perhaps it was so to the environment it was originally kept in and continued to be kept in. I don’t think that is evidence that Steinway is a poor quality rebuild shop. The glue, however, definitely is. Most rebuilders take great pride in their work and would never leave an instrument leave their shop looking like that.

A brief legal argument: Steinway has as much right to dictate who restores their old pianos as Ford or Chevy or Honda has to tell a garage they can't fix or restore a car. If there is no written agreement between the company and the owner of one of their old, pre-sold products, the company has no rights to dictate the disposition of that product once it leaves their hands.

I would take a Steinway with Dell Fandrich's name on it any day after hes let his genius loose on it. :-) I would also love a Steinway w a millennium CF action from Kawai or the WNG Mason Hamlin variant

what do you think of Steinweg’s pianos?

This sounds very like the problem of Leica Camera and the issue with old Leicas. Thankfully the guys and girls from Wetzlar are not crazy enough yet and they will still service old Leicas, and even those with third-party parts - - and use original Leica parts for that. Steinway's move sounds more like Nikon though: forbidding the use of film Nikon cameras for use in their photo comeptitions.

Great review! Thanks. Sometimes the truth hurts. :-)

We have a local Steinway satellite facility advertising a used Steinway M for sale without all original Steinway components so no factory warranty. It was owned last by a Steinway Artist so not sure if that has anything to do with this circumstance and of course if you want a warranty, Steinway offer to bring back to original, imagine price is restrictive to do that.

As you say, it isn't the label, it's the sound and tone it produces. I do have a question, though, James. When purchasing a piano, do you ever suggest the purchaser stand back about 7 to 18 feet, maybe sitting, listening, as someone else plays the piano being purchased? There really is a difference between sitting at the keys and sitting off to the side, listening.

My vote for lighting - no badge- Looks better, Anyway, it’s all able the sound in the end.

My original dream was ultimately to end up with a Steinway, but these discussions make me want to look towards Bechstein, Bluthner, or Mason & Hamlin when the time comes to send the Kimball Viennese Classic down the road.

The only problem would be if you were selling it publicly. If it is a Steinway, then why would it not be when it's refurbished and sounding better.

The sound is more important than the sound! Not showing the logo is bad for them. No free advertising.

apparently the only way to ship a piano to a far place and getting it back in good shape is via doing it yourself ... and since that cannot be done on the road (unless you're adventurous enough to do it yourself) then you need either your own private cargo airplane or you just have to travel on the commercial cargo planes taking the piano to the repair shop far away and back ... (still less costlier and troublesome than having to repeat the process many times and getting worse results each time ...)

I prefer my instruments to look good, but the only thing I really care about is how they play and sound. Corporate logos are the last thing I am worried about.

I personally would buy a piano for the sound and responsiveness. The logo just adds $$$ to the price.

I'd rather it not have a badge. Just like I don't want a logo on my shirt.

As pointed out, exactly like Ferrari with their cars, except making engine blocks and carbon parts are not cottage industries :) pianos, on the other hand are mostly made of stuff that a skilled craftsman can make in a shed. Yup dumb policy to make their pianos less attractive ( & decrease pool of skilled rebuilders) I think Yamaha etc are going to get some of their new sales...

James, from your experience of damages to pianos that were shipped over long distances, do you recommend buying a used piano from a seller far away? Your advice to stick with a local rebuilder could arguably be applied to buying local, which would limit a shopper’s options for bargains or choices... and deter your audience from even considering visiting the dealers where you stage your videos and buying an awesome piano.

I think a piano rebuilt by steinway is referred to as a "Steinwas". Or a "Steinbetter"

wow

Apple, John Deere, and now Steinway!

What it sounds like matters most... by far. Rebuilders logo would be fine. Depending on who, maybe better than Steinway... once builders reputations are established. And, once this is clear, prices will be higher. Meanwhile, my present "piano" is a Garritan Steinway D on my sl880pro midi keyboard. The bottom few bass notes sound better than the real Kawai* bass... but that's where its superiority ends. Sound quality difference doesn't matter that much though considering how much I hate tuning pianos. ------------------------- *... the small grand I used to use at church.

Companies that make rules to squeeze every last penny from you deserve to fall in the dustbin of history. I don't even own or play the piano but this makes me abit upset.

It's pretty easy to make high quality waterslide decals with modern inkjet printers from public domain images. As long as it is disclosed that the piano has been re-built and is not a new Steinway, I don't believe they can do anything. Seems the lawyer's are running the company now...

This is ridiculous, after you buy the piano and it is yours, you do whatever you want and you put whatever you want in your piano !

I wonder what an original Stradivarius sounds like then as compared to how it sounds today?

Is that even if you, no the piano, need a new paint? That’s strange. And if the piano needs a couple of new strings? They can’t think that someone is going to send the piano for that. I even think that this is going to be negative for steinway. Anyway look forward to your new piece of music.

I own a rebuilt 1921 Steinway. It has the logo on the front. Does that mean it will become more valuable?

First thought -- sounds like Apple

In the end let your ears be the judge. It can be a marquis brand , but still sound plain awful. A friend of my Dads sold Hi FI for many years back in its hay day. He always used the rule of tumb of " put a piece of masking take over the nameplate... if it sounds good to you, then it can be any brand you want it to be.

First, I’m no apologist for Steinway and the various corporate ownership interests that have controlled the management of the company over the years. There have bern a number if well documented miscues over the years. However, Steinway has been going through some substantial changes over the past several years. One of the most obvious change, especially with the concert D model, is to reduce the different aesthetic and build characteristics of a Hamburg Steinway and a New York Steinway. These two branches of the Steinway family have been quite distinctive in the past and they were easily recognizable by a somewhat discerning eye. They also used different actions, which is no longer the case I’m told. Also, some players felt the Hamburg Steinway had a clearer, more translucent sound; New York Steinway’s, on the other hand, were thought by many to possessed a darker, more complex tonal palette. Some of this could be related to voicing of the instrument but it was also related to construction differences between the European and New York build philosophies. It’s also true that some people believe that New York Steinway’s had a gold age in the 1930’s and 40’s. Many concert artist had well known favorites that were in high demand in this and preceding eras. As to the rebuilding capabilities of many capable and talented private restorers, I think it’s always a question of choosing wisely. However, your explanation of what happened to the concert D from the 1990’s that had to be rebuilt might be a tad harsh on the in house capabilities of Steinway, not to suggest they are infallible. Who is to say it was simply an inferior model coming out of the factory.; it happens sometimes. We know that pianos built side by side can be completely different, which is way some end up on the concert stage and others in private hands-not that you can’t have a marvelous sounding concert D that’s in general circulation. I’m guessing no one knows but the original owner what conditions the piano was subjected to, which can have a substantial impact on wood, action snd pin block (which are highly sensitive to light, temperature and humidity fluctuations). If it was inferior, why was it purchased in the first place? Franz Mohr, the head technician for Steinway for decades, related an interesting vignette about Vladimir Horowitz’s personal piano that traveled around the world with him. After performing with the piano in performance of Rachmaninov’s third piano concerto, Horowitz was completely disappointed in the sound. He expressed his displeasure to Mohr, who had been told by Horowitz to brighten the piano by lacquering the keys, which is a technique to get a louder sound. Unbeknownst to Horowitz, Mohr simply replaced the hammers and voila, the pearly, bell like sound Horowitz was known for return, to his utter delight. In the end, pianos are like people: each has unique sound and playing characteristics that require careful scrutiny before purchase. Thanks for your posting. Always interesting.

No name on the front? Isn't the name still on the plate inside? As an aside, I read a comment a few years ago by a Steinway sales manager who said that Steinway's main competition is not from other piano makers but from older, restored, re-sold Steinways.

Can you put a "Yamaha" logo on it?

I think soon enough the local guys will have the [fake] logos.

I guess it comes down to Steinway as a status symbol. Just like there are people who MUST have an iPhone, in the music world as well as those who are just upper-class or wealthy, there are people who MUST have a Steinway and that is what I think the company is banking on. I will admit that I have never heard of a Bosendorfer until last month and although I know Yamaha makes acoustic pianos, I've always associated the company with general electronics but EVERYBODY knows about Steinway. It has a prestige that even people who don't care about music theory or playing an instrument at all recognizes so when they see one, they're impressed. Bosendorfer and Yamaha may impress other musicians if you own one but Steinway empresses the general public.

hi