Today we put the new tensile tester to work. Comparing PLA, PETG, ABS, and a Polycarbonate blend to find which of them is actually stronger. The results are interesting to say the least.
@@HoffmanTactical yes! There was a kid in a blue shirt running around behind you waving🤣🤣. Your channel is great, and I'm impressed with your designs and your work ethic
You should do a test while pieces are heated. If some decided to make a lower for educational purposes and wanted to use it, the upper receiver will heat up after x number of rounds and could lower the structural integrity of the lower. This is just my hypothesis. A similar test should be done after annealing the parts as well.
I want to have a heated chamber around my tensile (and impact) testers. That way I could test at several temperatures and have a really good understanding of the thermal properties of that plastic. Right now the standard is to test the "heat deflection" temp. Which is only really good for comparison between different plastics. Since it's very dependent on the testing setup and process.
I always like these sorts of tests. CNC kitchen has done a bunch as well. The appeal to my engineering background. It would be interesting to see the results from some of the popular PLA+ filaments like Esun PLA+ or Atomic's impact resistant PLA. I believe they are generally more elastic than standard PLA. While your graph at around 7:30 is nice in that it shows a lot of data on one graph, I'm very wary of the implied linear trend with print orientation. I don't think that's right. Even if they all failed in the same failure mode, that curve would probably be some sort trigonometric curve. Since all the vertical prints have brittle delamination failures, it would probably be a curve with a discontinuity at the failure mode change. Any idea why the vertical PLA has that flat spot in the graph? That's very odd to me. It's like something in the part yields, but not the whole part.
Absolutely. That graph is simply to compare vertical to horizontal. Are you referring to the flat area between 50 and 100 pounds? That shows up on a lot if the data, it is caused by backlash in the bearing's. I don't think it has any effect on final results. CNC Kitchen does a really good job. It's worth watching all of his testing videos!
@@jeffthebaptist3602 Yes, that's the flat spot I referred to. Some pulls don't have it, others do. It's the machine slipping / tightening. Not sure exactly why.
Great video, I caught your use of the word coupon :-). I also print with polycarbonate blend (Priline) and I find it is extremely temperature dependent to get good layer adhesion. Try raising the temperature see if your layer adhesion gets better. It made a huge difference for me. I've seen many people recommend all kinds of different temperatures and settings, but I found what works best for me on my PRUSA Mark 3S is as follows first layer 280° C all subsequent layers 275° C .8 mm retraction 100°C on the print bed for the first layers 90°C afterwards my parts require high finish so I print at .15 mm layer height 15% infill COOLING FAN OFF "except for first layers of bridging" this is of paramount importance !, as hitting this material with cooling air will cause it not to layer bond correctly. I suspect a lot of people who are complaining about weak parts or bad layer adhesion have their cooling fans turned on. I cannot stress this enough "YOU CANNOT USE THE COOLING FAN WITH THIS MATERIAL" this results in extremely strong parts that I use.
For printing lowers you do not have to use a cooling fan with PC, so I'll try to redo the test without one and see how it does. I did do a temp test before doing this video. Tested 260, 270, 280, and 290 C. 280 was a lot better then the higher or lower temps. I run the bed at 120 C. Anyway, great info!
That;s what I used to think. Such rumors got started somewhere by some anti PLA freak ;) PLA+ is better then PETG in all ways but thermal resistance. PETG has a slight edge there. PETG's biggest issue is not that it's weak though, the big problem is it has very poor impact resistance and likes to shatter.
@@stuntjake912 well. saturday at 8am mtn time usa the video will be up. right now im just getting out of bed and need to get the printer going on other parts then im going to assemble the lower and test it on my current upper.
@@blackwater7183 what do you mean? mine lasted just shy of 3k rounds and only broke when I did some drop tests, I printed another and it is running strong. I also design print and publish my own almost completely 3d printed guns. it is a great way to make things and guns can be made in ways that no other method can match, heck, even major commercial manufacturers are getting into it.
@@HoffmanTactical thanks man, im a big fan, i see alot of people doing this but not to this level! people like JUST make lower stl's but what your doing is ART. thanks man :)
Something you also have to compare is part shrinkage & dimensions between all of your test parts. I have also read online that you should dry out what ever filament you'll be printing with it.
Cool video! Printing your lower as we speak, for some reason it's gonna take like 50 hours with the settings you suggested, any reason that would be? I'm new to the world of printing so sorry if it's a newb question
@@HoffmanTactical I'm not sure exactly what you mean, I have the fans running but the nozzle and bed have remained the same temperature since the print started, currently at 1 day 15 hours and 33 minutes at 74% completion
I use and ender and cura also. I can't remedy your issue specifically, but I can say that cura has some quirks in the settings that you can adjust to improve print times hugely. You just need to poke around and Google terms you dont know.
I guess the next question is... PLA or PLA+? I almost bought some PLA+ a couple of days ago, but decided to wait and see what results people are getting.
Did you turn off cooling for the PETG parts? PETG gets really good layer adhesion, but if you cool it too quickly it doesn't get as good layer adhesion strength
Couldn't you slice a flat-printable section off each part to print separately from the main body of the part and then bond the two sections after printing? That would, in theory, allow you to gain the full material strength in the part.
This test isn't useful without knowing printer used and printer settings along with showing what type of filament used exactly. Polycarbonate is a broad term and there are a lot of variants out there including even what people consider "pure PC" as there are different types of pure PC (high clarity, high toughness, anti-static, bulletproof, flame-retardant, etc). If you do not print pure PC at 300C or higher in a heated chamber (not just enclosed) with a 120-140c bed, you will get lots of warping and weak layer adhesion. ALSO KEY: Polycarbonate needs to be super dry when printed and needs to be dried at 120C (much hotter than dehydrators can get) for 4-12 hours to ensure it is fully dry, otherwise it will also result in weaker inter-layer adhesion and visually less impressive prints. Polycarbonate blends (the most common filaments out there) all have various tradeoffs but at the end of the day still will not be as strong as many other less exotic filaments without a heated enclosure and very high temperature (for consumer-grade printers) hot ends and bed temperatures. My experience with PC has been the opposite when printed using the above parameters with a modified Voron 2.4 using 3dxtech PC and PC+CF.
Awesome video! Do you know which material is best for transmitting vibrations, and not absorbing vibrations? I need to 3D print a mount for a transducer and need maximum vibrations to transfer through the mount. I'm thinking ABS is best but not 100% sure.
You need to do this with natural/clear filaments, especially PETG. Material petg will test much better, it still greatly suffers from poor impact resistance and you don't want to use it for firearm stuff but you should do it for science.
The nylon is what I really want to see. Most tools', like cordless drills and grinders and such, are made with nylon; but its fibergalss reinforced. There is also a higher heat resistant nylon (I believe that's called PA6..maybe. lol) .. and you also see it in a lot of injection molded tools-- also usually 15 to 30% fiberglass reinforced. If you could figure out a way to somehow integrate fibers into the printing process, that would be the real innovation that would change everything... Like concrete only has long strings of rebar--- maybe you could physically sprinkle fibers just behind the extruder as its printing and it could help the bond between the layers. (I don't know much about this printing stuff, and how fast it cools... just making suggestions here.)
I'll be trying Nylon. Something important to keep in mind is that just because something is strong when injection molded, does not mean it will make a strong print. I think Mark Forge makes a printer that places a continuous fiber into each printed line. Besides cost the problem is there printer firmware will not allow you to print guns. Still a cool idea. Though it would not help with layer adhesion.
@@HoffmanTactical Interesting... But you're right, it wouldn't help with adhesion. I'm referring to trying to get fibers embedded from one layer to the next, across the adhesion line, to help reinforce it. If there was just a way to sprinkle fibers onto the top side of the line, just after it prints, while its still molten, so that the fiber can lodge part of itself into the sting--- but still have fibers exposed on that top surface, to be covered in the next printed line.. it would give more structure across the adhesion lines. There would have to be quite a bit of R&D doing this, to discover the best size/ length of fibers to use, and the amount used, that would still allow maximum adhesion. I know its tedious, but in my mind, i just picture following directly behind the printer and sprinkling fibers over the hot line while its still pliable, or even lightly pressing some fibers into it before it hardens--- and do that on ever layer, and test it again------- just for a proof of concept. But if it were created as an industrial process, ideally a 2nd nozzle spraying fibers onto the line just as its printing would probably work the best. I'm just not sure of how it would test, and if it would even help at all?
So I am wondering if you could actually get parts to be stronger by changing in infill to face the direction of stress. Of course this would only work if its not being printed at a 45 degree angle, but its a thought.
That's how the horizontal test samples were printed. I did a test today with infill that was not orientated with the stress, and it was stronger. Makes no sense to me, will have to do more testing.
Trouble with pla is that in a hot car it can distort and get ruined, especially if there is force applied from internal springs, etc. In South Florida a car can reach temperatures above 140F parked out in the sun.
@@HoffmanTactical i just ordered some siraya blu resin, printer is to small for a full lower, but if u want me to send u one of those test pieces printed with it let me no, id love to see how they compare to all the others in a side by side
the test you performed is not the same as the results from an impact test, PLA is more brittle in such a test. ASA (ABS) should have the highest impact resistance between PETG and PLA, with PLA being the lowest.
Yes. This was just tensile. But, PLA+ is a completely different animal from normal PLA. Some PLA+ filaments have better impact performance then ABS. So it's important not to lump all PLA's together!
A gentleman sent me some samples printed in Ultem. I'll do a video on them. Really strong, but poor layer adhesion. The biggest problem with high temp filaments is they warp way too much to be practical without a very hot heated chamber and bed. The samples I have where printed in a 120+ C chamber, and the still warped a lot. Some of the Nylons will be a better choice because they have much better layer adhesion, and still have great strength.
@@HoffmanTactical thank you for your prompt response. I was watching some of the video from other channels. But they don't talk much about firearm use. The most they talk is aerospace use .
@@h.766 Yes. The only place I've seen a member of this plastic family used in guns is the 50 BMG SLAP round. It uses a Ultem sabot. One of the primary reasons it's used in general is not for it's strength, but for it's very high thermal resistance.
If it needs to be food grade, I'm not sure. But from a strength perspective I think that the Keene Village Plastics Performance PLA would be a good choice.
@@HoffmanTactical It wont be touching food at all. I was just looking for overall strength since the part will be spinning and holding some weight on it.
Fan off. I did a bit of experimenting with PCTG, a similar plastic, to see if the fan effected impact resistance, and it did not. It does effect layer adhesion.
I always thought PETG has greater durability (IMPACT RESISTANCE), than untreated (acetone) ABS. Not relevant to the filament tests...like that sweater bro really sharp.
No, PETG is pretty close to the bottom. ABS is also pretty poor, but better then PETG. PLA+ is a lot better then either of the two. Sweater is Navy, not sure what it's called.
good video. one thing to note, with the polycarbonate and ABS the cooling fan is killing you. even 10% cooling fan on the polycarb can diminish layer adhesion by up to 20%. if you tweak your temps you should be able to get crazy strong layer adhesion. I cannot speak to polycarbonate bends, I only have experience with pure PC. ABS is much the same but probably not worth testing.
Im still waiging for the resin to arrive but if u want me to print out one of those same test pieces id be happy to send one to u for u to test against the others. Planning on using siraya blu "engineering " resin. Using epax x1 so i need a bigger build plate for other stuff tho =(
I am testing Nylon now. I have tested Matter Hackers Pro Nylon, NylonX and NylonG. NylonX is the only one that had enough strength / impact resistants to make it interesting. The plain Pro Nylon performed poorly in both impact and tensile. I will be testing other Nylons as well. Unfortunately all the Nylons I have tested warp too badly to be practical.
@@HoffmanTactical I have been using the Atomic Filament Nuclear Nylon and I have not had it warp once. atomicfilament.com/collections/exotic-specialty-filament/products/carbon-fiber-nuclear-nylon?variant=30520209702973
@@gorillamotors Nuclear is one of the Nylons I will be testing! I have not printed with it yet, but am hearing good things. I'm glad you have had success with it. If it performs as good as NylonX, less the warping. It will be a real winner!
@@HoffmanTactical I have used Nylon X in the past and had to return it as it did not do well. So far the Nuclear has work out extremely well once the settings have been optimised.
Just seen a pc abs mix and annealed for better layer adhesion I was looking for something close to polymer and the army mad this filament then a RU-vid cnc kitchen did it printing his own filament
In reality you are missing a vital measurement. Elongation. I am assuming you pulled these at the same rate so you time can be used for your elongation. With your strength to break and elongation you get a caluclated value of Modulus which is a truer toughness value. It tells you that though a material may break at a lower value it does not deform or stretch out prior to that break. This would be a more brittle material like the PC/PBT blend where the Petg, deforms more prior to break and in some ways can probably take more wear before being useless. So your modulus can better be used to evaluate how tough your materials are and you can better choose what you want to use for your part based on the total behavior of your material. Just to be certain there are a few Modulus values. Modulus at yield (like with the PETG) and Modulus at break to call out two.
Yes. I can get approximant elongation data, but because I don't have a dedicated strain gauge attached to the neck of the sample, the results are not very accurate. Something I need to work on!
Those enclosures are far from optimal. And they're probably hurting you results. People print raw PC at 85-149c. I get 45c on my home enclosure for abs
It's just a fume / dust curtain. I may experiment with an enclosure. But all of my testing is done from the perspective of an open air machine. Since that is what most people have. A heated enclose at the right temp should improve layer adhesion. Though bridges and overhangs may suffer.
@@HoffmanTactical oh yeah. tho an enclosure is super cheap/easy if you really want one. I threw a blanket over my printer for years and it got even hotter than my acrylic/PC enclosure. nowadays i just use the top hat i made for my printer and put panels on the sides and made doors for my printer (it's a corexy so i just attached them to the extrusions)
If you want to learn anything you should look at other subjects not just 3D printing, for example ABS is made into Legos and there's a reason because they're tough and kids want to throw it around, it really frustrates me when people from the 3D printing community think they know everything about plastic when the research and sciences already out there.... Trust me I don't really know a lot about other plastics but ABS is extremely tough if not they wouldn't make it for kids toys
Sorry man ;) ABS has it's place, but there are much better plastics out there! Lego's are made from ABS for one reason. It's cheap! Being low cost is not a bad thing, but ABS is a weak plastic that is not suited for high stress applications.
Some good information here, but kinda messy video. And man... are you in a hurry, you talk so fast that you have a hard time keeping up with yourself :-!
I’d like to see some of the high end “exotic” filaments tested. PolyMaker makes super strong stuff like PC Max, PolyMide CoPA (easy printing nylon), and my personal favorite PA-6GF (glass fiber reinforced nylon). I think glass reinforced nylon is going to be the best because nylon is super strong and the glass fibers make it almost as stiff as PLA. Things like Magpul PMags are some form of glass reinforced nylon. Fiberlogy makes a good glass fiber reinforced nylon too which is good since the PolyMaker one is always out of stock.
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Can you alternate which filament you're using to engineer a printing pattern that has maximal toughness? I'm talking pecifically about PLA and PETG. It's sort of like mixing sand into portland cement to make mortar. I'm sure however factors like layer adhesion (between the different polymers) could potentially be an issue.
It would require a lot of filament changing, but could have interesting results. There is a lot of completely unexplored stuff like this in the 3D printing world that deserves a look.
im trying to get the mm right on the x shrinkage with salt anealing its looking promising 400 degrees in oven for 2 maybe 3 hours it shrinks in the x so u can just add length in cura i would love to see a video on this.
I need to do some more videos on the testing I've all ready done. I've used Prusament ASA in the past, and it performs no better then ABS. I did try some Nylon the other day, it had strength similar to PETG, but I think would be really tough, even though it's not really strong. Problem is I can't print with it. Warps so bad I barely managed to print the little test samples. Testing in temp exstremes is an interesting subject. And I'll have to try some time. PLA becomes more ductile in higher temps. I don't know what low temps do.
I did testing on impact resistance on the z axis. On Nylon, Polymax PC, ABS, ASA, PETG, PLA. Nylon did the best by far after soaking in warm water, though it was quite flexible. Polymaker's ABS was second, I was able to fine toon the settings to greatly improve the property. PC was next, close to ASA. Then PETG being drastically lower, then PLA.
@@HoffmanTactical I know it gets a bit harder and more brittle. Seems to depend on humidity. I was think about using CF Nylon for firearm parts, do you have experience with that?
@@Nathan-jh1ho Not yet. From using other CF filaments, I think don't think it would help. Plain plastic is less brittle. CF does greatly help with warping though.
@@HoffmanTactical I saw a video from Print Shoot Preeat. His CF nylon CZ scorpion EVO receiver broke on layer line. I assume he didn't soak in worm water for few hours. My test indicated dry nylon has similar Z axis impact strength as PETG, which is bad. The layer adhesion gets substantially stronger after treatment. Leaving it in humid environment for couple weeks should also have similar outcomes. Though treated nylon is pretty flexible, don't know if it would be suitable for firarm use.
By the way. I think you should try Polylite ABS. It has higher claimed impact strength on TDS then other brands. (Haven't tried any, Snolabs claims even higher) with these settings I got great layer adhesion, excellent z axis impact strength, and minimal warping. Ender 3 all metal -265C nozzle -40C enclosure (15cm from bed, 10 cm higher) -90C bed on PP build plate with light glue stick -0.55mm line width w/ 0.4mm nozzle -103% flow except outer shell -0 fan, heat sink cooling fan taped off on buttom (very important) -Cura default 25-50mm/s print speed.
I'm an optician and we make lenses from a lot of these materials. Trivex and Xirm are the two strongest monomer plastics I know of. Trivex is also chemical resistant. Trivex is made by PPG in Pennsylvania. I don't know if it'll ever be in a spool, but it passes impact resistance tests at the same or higher tolerances than poly. I'd like to see something printed in it one day! Polycarbonate is actually pretty weak, but it's used in safety glasses. It gets a treatment/coating at the lab that gives it its impact resistance. Without that treatment, it's shit tier. Not sure if any of this applies to 3D printing, but the materials are pretty familiar to me.
I'd be interested as well to see how those materials print. One thing I have found is, just because it molds good, does not mean it will print well. So you really have to try to know for sure!
Can't tell much without seeing how the PC was printed. But practically speaking PC is mostly only useful if you need dimensional stability and reasonable strength at high temperatures. Also the overwhelming issue with PLA is fatigue over time with any mechanical stress. All in all PETG is easily king for me.
PC does have some very useful properties, but I must disagree about PETG ;) It's low strength and impact resistance are not worth the slight increase in thermal resistance. Nowadays I use PLA+, PC blends or filled Nylon.
@@HoffmanTactical Idk the PETG from California Filament is cheapest stuff in the US market and the best PETG I've used. Worth trying if you haven't. Heat resistant, UV resistant, chemically resistant, easy to print, what's not to love. And if you smooth with dichoromethane and then heat treat you can increase strength and impact resistance substantially. I haven't used much PLA+, I'll have to try some. Is it more fatigue resistant?
@@HoffmanTactical Hi there. I'm using PCMax from polymaker. Standard settings on prusa slice( 90% infill) , Magigoo Pro PC for bed prep and no enclosure. Very satisfied of the outcome.
Bro thankyou, this is great work. Do you suspect different results with enclosed heated chambers? Real world for the commoner, we don't have enclosures, however. So this test is perfect for us. I'm looking forward to the nylon tests. Thanks again brother!!
Just ran a test with resin. Working on the video now ;) It was about the same as PLA+. Nylon warps to much to print a lower from, CF makes parts brittle. I think the best option is 3D870 PLA. Same as eSun PLA+ but 10 degrees higher heat deflection temp.
@@HoffmanTactical awesome! I'll be watching for that video! Have you tried annealing your parts (baking in compacted flour salt)? I saw that done to parts and it solved a lot of the adhesion issues...but not sure if it's something that would work for lowers (shrinkage, brittlenes, etc)...
@@legalmechman It's really remelting. I remember when that video went vira. I don't think it's worth the trouble, almost as easy to just cast it from aluminum ;)
I tried that taulman alloy 910 and didn't have any luck printing with it and i tried carbon fiber polycarbonate and pulled off 1 decent print and compared to pla carbon fiber the pla definitely seems stronger.
