Plying From A Center Pull Ball Changes Your Twist! 

If you want to know more about how different plying methods affect your twist including when bracelet plying, check out my article in the 2023 Ply Magazine "Science" issue. simplecirc.com/ply-magazine/item/8128/the-science-issue-40

I actually prefer the centre pull yarn. I want my spun yarn to have more texture/ character or else I would just buy normal yarn

As a visual learner your centre pull demonstration with the tp was invaluable for me. I will easily remember which pull adds twist and which way removes twist🥰

Whenever we need her the most she returns 🥰🥰

Yarn barf is my new favourite phrase.

Both swatches are pretty. Personally, I love the character of the yarn plied from the center pull ball. It does look interesting like hand spun. Variety is the spice of life, so it is perfect on it’s own and the other swatch is too...just a matter of preference.

this is one of those things that we can make lot of logical assumptions... and it all makes sense... but without someone actually doing the experiment, we don't really know how it all plays out. so many little things about this you have shown us.

Thanks for doing this and especially making the swatches. My earlier yarns I played from a center pull and the big fluffy areas always looked and felt under twisted. I currently ply from two bobbins and bracelet ply the leftover from a bobbin into the rest. No left overs.

Thank you so much for doing this science! I've tried to explain this so many times but always fall short. One thing I noticed: I'm pretty sure if you do the toilet paper experiment again, you'll see that whole both ends of the toilet paper are gaining twist, they're doing it in different directions. So with yarn, depending on which direction you spun your singles, one end will *gain* twist and one end will *lose* twist. So the end that loses twist is the ply that looks all puffy and underspun.

What a great demonstration of the different 2-ply options! Thanks so much for knitting up the swatches. The end result is more subtle thank I expected.

When you pulled the toilet paper off the roll, the outer end gained Z-twist, while the inner was gaining S-twist. If you flipped the roll over, The outer would gain S-twist and the inner would gain z-twist, because you would reverse the direction the tp was winding off. If you pull the outer and inner off in opposite directions, they will gain the same type of twist, albeit at a different rate, unless the ball is fairly small and diameter of the core is reasonably close to the diameter of the outside (as is usually the case with a plying bracelet). Which type of twist they gain will depend on whether the yarn is coming off the ball counterclockwise or clockwise. I used to not like plying with a plying bracelet because of the discrepancy in the twist, until I realized that the center tail needed to come out of the back of the bracelet, not the front. it's still not the same as plying off a spool, but it's not nearly as bad as winding off both ends in the same direction. (Actually, the plying bracelet *doesn't* add/remove twist, because it winds off back and forth, it's just the center pull ball that creates an issue, but to different extremes, depending on how that center is coming out relative to the outer tail)

I have wondered about this before because it obviously is different than plying from two bobbins. I just put it out of my mind with the reasoning of stop overthinking things. I appreciate you taking the time to work through it, and actually show the difference. Welcome back btw. You were missed.

Another thing to test is to see if the difference in the plys changes if you wind the ball by hand. Using a ball winder does not add or subtract any twist as far as I could see because the yarn does not cross over the center. I know when I hand wrap a ball on a noste pinne (uncertain of the spelling) or on say my thumb the winding action does change the twist. The change per length of yarn will be different depending on whether it is in the center where there were many wraps per length or the outside where it might be one or two wraps.

Working from both ends of a center pull cake has never worked for me, though I never knew exactly why I was unhappy with the results. Thanks, Jillian!

When I started spinning I searched youtube for various techniques and saw how the center-pull plying was not for me. Then I came upon the Andean Plying Tool. It creates bracelet-type plying balls from large amounts of yarn (up to 50 grams on mine, but you can get larger ones) without tying up your hand. It doesn't add as much uneven twist (though there is some) as the center-pull. I wouldn't ply any other way now.

It’s interesting to think that I’ve probably critiqued some of my spinning over the years as inconsistent, having assumed that the improvement necessary was in my drafting… not realizing that I was undoing some of consistency. I often ply Turkish turtles with themselves and I wonder if the same thing occurs!

Glad to see you back. We all missed you. Great visual! Thanks for sharing.

I LOVE chainply from center pull ball. From the outside inwards. There is no tension which I do have when I chainply from a bobbin. This has nothing to do with your video but I meant it as a tip.

I'd been wondering what happened with some of my old handspun vs my more recent stuff, and I realized this is probably what's at play.

I really like your video where you show the toilet paper or ribbon or whatever and pulling from the center in the outside at the same time showing how you basically end up with one wrapping around the other, however I have looked for that again and couldn't find it.

Record-keeping and experimentation is the best way! I started making a log of all my spinning, WPI, g/yard ratios, preparation, and it helps so much! Recently I tried spinning two samples, one from rolags and the other from the prepared top. Yardage was more or less the same, but loft was so different!

Thanks for that, I had no idea there would be a difference.

Hi Evie, I hope you're all OK and that you enjoyed your break. I was only thinking about you earlier about how good it would be to see you & hey just like that you're here. The scientific information you gave on whether to ply from centre pull balls or ply from bobbins was really interesting. I was wondering if this would be the same as the Andean plying method, but using centre pull balls instead. Thankyou so much for this video podcast on the Science behind plying.. Happy Spinning. Take care and stay safe. Love to you all. Jen xxxx ❤💖

Regarding difficulty of any braid to draft: try drafting from the opposite end.

Thank you for that. It has explained the results I was getting in my yarns. Now a much happier spinner!🤗💓🙏

Thank you so much for this demonstration! I love plying from a centre pull ball when I've got a limited amount of fibre/yarn, like when I only have 50/100g of roving or sample fibre to spin... no leftover singles. Now I know there's a difference and it really doesn't affect the end result for what I'm doing. :)

Well slap me silly I've been doing it all wrong hahahaha good job I have more bobbins now yay xx

Here’s another element: the original amount of twist you added to the single. My default spin is lace weight yarn. You need a lot more twist for the yarn to hold together for very fine yarns. That means the difference in twist between the ’inner’ end and the ‘outer’ end of the centre pull ball will be relatively be smaller than with a low-twist, thicker yarn. Let’s put it this way: if there are 10 revolutions of energy in the single across a distance of 10 cms (or inches, whatever you want) and plying from a centre pull ball adds 1 revolution over those 10 cms (inches) difference between the ‘inner’ single and the ‘outer’ single, you’ve got a ratio difference of 1:10 over the given length. If the singles have 20 revolutions over that same distance, the ratio will be 1:20. That’s a much smaller difference. It’ll be a lot less noticeable, if at all. My take on it is the thinner the yarn/more twist in the single, the less you notice. As a lot of people find it hard to even fill a single bobbin with lace weight yarn, the centre pull ball is a valid option that won’t show up noticeably in most cases. To prove my theory I tried it. Broke out my magnifying glass and checked. Theory confirmed. Your biggest worry with a centre pull ball will be winding it with even tension to avoid breaking your singles or getting yarn barf. Especially in a knitted sample, the difference in tension won’t be something you need to worry about for lace weight yarns when plying from a centre pull ball. I will however give preference to a 2-bobbin ply for thicker, more loosely spun singles to get an even ply in the future. So: thank you for this experiment!

Adean plying is wastless and without twist inconsistencies, and it gives great control when plying.

LOL!! NO one tells me not to ply from a center pull ball! Great video!!

This was very interesting. I think I will do the same experiment and also do a chain ply swatch so I can feel the texture. Thank you

hmm I wonder how the ply would look from a centerpull if the singles were spun 'S' and compare it. Awesome experiment, I always wondered and I don't think I really mind either, specially if I have a 200gram bobbin and a bracelet ply just wont cut it. Thank you for this!!!

She's back! We love you Jillian!

Such a helpful and interesting experiment!! I also recently learned that pulling from either one side of the center pull ball (I don't remember if it was the center or the outer end) it spins in opposite direction and you actually untwist the yarn!

I experimented early this year with re-plying some early attempts on my spindle, or just older stuff I handspun years ago. What a difference! In some cases, I ended up with pretty energized yarn but it washed and set just fine. Except for the time I took a Aran weight woolen spun down to a high twist sport weight and couldn't use that skein in my sweater anymore!

This was so intetesting and so happy to have you back!!!!

I love your videos! I learn sooo much. Thank you!!!

That was interesting! Thanks for sharing. And welcome back! 😁💕

This was such a thorough and informative video! Thank you for your dedication, great production :)

I don't know if you'd be able to see it as clear in crocheting. It looks cool, both ways! Thank you for teaching this. :)

That's a gamechanger. Wow! I never knew why my handspun finished skeins never looked as smooth as other spinners' handspun yarns. I do ply with center pull balls almost exclusively.

Great info thanks

Excellent visual demo!

Hi! I am a spindle spinner and I ply my singles on themselves. The test I always run is to see if the resulting skein is under- or over-twisted. I hang the skein in front of me, and if it turns away to my right it is under twisted. If it turns away to my left it is over-twisted. If it hangs straight, it is balanced.

If I have a small amount of yarn to ply, I will sometimes use a centre-pull ball BUT I do one of two things: 1 - I keep my finger between the two strands or 2 - if I have a button with large holes handy, I will feed the strands through the button. What this does is it allows me to tension both strands separately. Also, I don't like leftovers but if they happen then I will felt the last end to the shorter end and Andean-ply what is left. If you ever re-visit this issue, maybe you could try these? I'm not all science-y like you. :) I just let the yarn be what the yarn wants to be. Not a good way for most but I'm okay with it.

I am curious if it would have made a difference if you had washed the yarn. Would the two yarns have looked even more different or maybe not as different, and how would that have affected your swatches? Good to see you back, blessings.

Brilliant 😮❤

i found this very helpful Evie. Thankyou for doing it for us!

Great explanation! Great demonstration!

Terrific.

Your work is amazing.

This is a kind of science that I really like! Thank you for getting into the fibrelab, I think I´m also gonna try this at home!

What a helpful demonstration. Thanks

I've been reading about felting singles. Such an interesting concept?? Would love to see you explore this with demos and comparisons!!

Thank you so much for taking the time to create this experiment. Also, i love your attitude!

Thanks to you for understand to me

Thank you.

Very interesting

Oh my gosh thank you so much I was just about to start plying when I saw this. I’m so glad I did. It will be my first time plying anything

Great video! Thank you very much. I have learned so much from your videos and I so very grateful for your advice!

VERY interesting video.

Thank you for posting this video! I had been wondering about this for a while but I have always plied a center pull because I didn't think I was spinning consistently enough to finish with similar yardage on 2 bobbins.

One of the best videos!!! Love to see comparisons...do more of these!! Thanks!!!!!

Thank you!! So helpful!

Thank you so much for this demonstration. I am a beginner but think analytically about things and wondered if the twist was affected by Andean or center pull. Now I know! You're my go to for spinning help.

There's one key variable here that I think has been overlooked. If you are making a center-pull bar with a ball winder, you're winding it on without affecting the twist (so essentially toilet paper style), because you're holding the yarn at a more-or-less perpendicular angle to the angle of rotation. It's easy for a machine to do because a machine can just spin on an axle, and the yarn is held in one place (without being wound over the end). But it's a LOT more finicky to try to wind a center-pull ball on a nostepinne by hand without adding or removing any twist, because for human wrists, it's just a lot easier to wrap over the end, which will add or subtract twist--this is how I wind center-pull balls. I can't quite conceptualize how that would affect the ends when you pull them out, but I know when I ply, the yarn goes "back over" the space where the nostepinne was; I'm wondering if it's possible to do it neutrally in this way.

I dont use centre pull balls but I do use plying bracelets when I'm doing little bits of spindle spun yarn for nålebinding (spin a bit, work a bit) because then I dont get bored with either thing. I havent noticed much of this but then the amounts are smaller...

Science, yes. Thanks for doing this all the way through. Good to know, not guess.

So glad you had a good break. It's nice to see you back, - you and your infectious enthusiasm have been missed. Lots of love. Xx

Awesome to see you!

Wild! I looked up this video last night while spinning to decide whether I could do a center pull ball ply because I hadn’t divided my fiber before spinning… and guess what. I’m spinning malabrigo! And I had just said how difficult it has been to draft! I feel so seen! 🙌🏻

Very neat experiment!! Thank you.

Welcome back! This was super interesting. When I first started spinning I was using the center pull ball method to ply since that was what I had available to me. And I could not understand why it came out so wibbly wobbly! Fun little lesson in physics, I suppose :P After all that frustration you'd have to pry my lazy kate and bobbins from my cold dead hands lol!

This was so helpful to see. Thank you for posting this video.

I think the way you illustrated the whole concept was very cleaver and easy to understand. Definitely not something I really considered putting much thought into but it does make a difference.

Brilliant!!!! Thanks Eve for this great video!!! 🦉 (Love the necklace!)

Yay glad to see you back! This was super helpful I was having issues plying to my drop spindle with center pull balls but I think it actually had something to with the yarn texture too. Some yarns like to grab on more than others.

Hi jillianeve this is really important and interesting I'm going to discuss it at the weavers spinners and dying group and get there reaction. This was so clear and precise clarifying the points. I will pass on your videos to any one interested. Thanks again Sheila

I’m halfway through and I’ve already learned a lot!

That was interesting to watch and see the difference. Enjoyed the video.

Wow that was a great learning video. She's back!!! ❤️

I love the visual with the toiletpaper, it made it so clear. Your skill to explain but also do it in an fashion so that I want to hear what you have to say is so great! I would have liked that some teachers I had in the past would have owned that skill. Thank you, I enjoyed it so much.

Really interesting video. Since I always ply from center-pull ball (on drop spindle), I have found that the yarn becomes more uniform if you hold the fluffier part of the center pull with more tension than the less fluffy part while drafting them, out. Also I apply more twist, and that also makes the plied yarn more consistent.

Wow! That's actually a very good visual!

Thank goodness your back! We've missed you! I absolutely love your necklace, owls are my favorite, and it fits perfectly because you are always sharing your vast wisdom with us! Thank you so much Evie!

16:22 😂😂 made me chuckle. Thanks for another great video!

I wonder if the same hold true for chain -ply vs three ply yarns. Thank you for doing this demo!

This is brilliant thank you for doing such a comprehensive test and. Loved that you knitted up the swatches to compare. I think I prefer to have equal twist in each ply so will probably stick to plying two bobbins.

Oh....my....goodness moi! You are a complete and utterly genius! I always mostly ply from a centre pull ball, and recently I something was niggling away in my mind about twisty direction and sometimes I just think, oh I love it so don't think about it to hard. Your explanation with the loo roll, boom, and there it was, explained. Thank you so very much..... I've been away from spinning a little while but its sneaking back in there. I feel the two bobbin yarn is a 'professional ' finish and center pull ball a rustic finish! Both blooming lovely, but ain't that spinning, do what you like, like what you do and its all fine. Thank you so much.....now to spin! X

When I ply from a center pull ball I adjust the tension of the outside and inside strand separately and snap the two together so that the twist is even. It’s difficult to describe but i do not just let both strands feed through on their own with the same tension. My yarn is even no tight or loose strands as a result.

Great video. I just spun up a braid of malabrigo nube with the intention of trying a center pull ball plying. Have never done this before but wanted to give it a go. Love learning new things with spinning. Cannot wait to see how it turns out (have to wait for the cat on my lap to finish his nap)

Nice summary. Always wondered about the different spin rate of the center pulled cake. Using the TP makes it really clear.

With malbrigo if you steam it before using it it's easy to spin afterwards x

Hi Evie!! I haven't even watched the video yet, I just wanted to say that you were missed! Thank you for the video! Ok, I'm going to watch it now lol

I've been reading about felting singles. Interesting concept? Would love to see you explore this with demos and comparisons.!!! from a NEW Follower!!! Thanks!!!

You're Awesome! Thanks for testing this. I will sometimes ply from a center pull ball when I have a smaller amount and I've always wondered about the twist. Logically you know it has to have an effect, but you demonstrated it. Good for the right reason. THANKS!

I mostly ply from center pull balls for that one reason of no yarn unspun or left behind but I never thought that it could add twist some how that's very interesting, WB been a while since your last upload hope you and family are good 👍🙂

Wow that’s so interesting! I’ve been plying 2 yarn cakes together using the outside ends, do you think that changes the twist as well? I’m super new to spinning and would have never thought about this at all. Thanks for the video

Thank you so much for doing this comparison, being a fairly unseasoned spinner, it sated my curiosity.

Very interesting! The toilet paper demonstration says it all. I like to ply from 2 center pull balls, yarn barf irritates me and I get less if I use 2 center pull balls. I also like to thread ply a spiral ply yarn from a center pull ball. I’m curious if the direction the center pull ball is wound makes a huge difference. Thanks for sharing your experiment!