A brief look at the design of suspension bushes and pitfalls of cheap and badly designed bushes. The contrast is the superior design and engineering of the SuperPro brand. www.sportdrive.technology www.superpro.eu.com
As you can see I commented on this vid 5 years ago! I put powerflex bushes on my transporter t5 and it had done just as you have showed, I had the subframe out to do the gearbox and the lower arms didn’t move they were solid and extremely hard to move and that was just dangling on the frame off of the van. So wish I brought the super pro, I can see the powerflex bushes have grown past the crush tubes and rub on the frame 🤬🤬🤬
Thanks for the video. I have tried 2 brands of PU bushes and so far Superpro are holding up and performing better than other brand in the one application that is a direct comparison. Superpro is more expensive but based on the failures I got they may have been cheaper in the long run. Also keep in mind that any bushings are most likely better than your worn out ones at first but the real test is how long can they keep their performance up. The firm ones might be useful if you have a track car but for most people that is not needed or wise.
Well said! You still want the suspension to move on a track car. No suspension movement = no damper movement = no damping. You'll get a lot of vibration around steady state which may seem fast but not efficient (less grip).
I paint the bush face, inside, outside, and even the sleeve with anti-sieze. Two benefits, longer lasting than the clear snot slickening agent, and no more siezed crush tube to the bolt itself. No grease needed. Works flawlessly for 10+ years now. And most importantly, no poly bush squeaking!
very informative. I've come across problems on my 200 sx s14a that relate perfectly with what you have described. when I restore I will probably replace with the super pro bushes
The area on the end of the bush has no effect on how much force it takes to rotate the arm. The clamp load shared by the PU is distributed throughout whatever size area. The force you are experiencing has been determined by the coefficient of friction of the materials in the interface.
I think it's just attention to detail rather than having material spilling out over the bearing surface. A bit like going to the beach un-shaved. Doesn't make a difference, but there's a neater, more attractive solution 🤣
Any experience with Prothane? They have channeling in the middle to retain grease and I'm using Mobil 1 Synth grease which is supposed to do a really good job
I don't I'm afraid. However, the channel you describe is called a bullet groove which runs the length of the bushing. As the suspension components load and unload the bushings will move (compress) and this action will deform the groove and you will find any grease gets ejected from the ends over time. In other words, it's a useless design to retain grease, but very cheap to manufacture as it can be created with the initial casting! A knurl on the other hand has to be cut in a second operation. HTH
26 minutes of useful and direct information with visual examples. I'll take 26 minutes of that, over the usual youtube video which consists of an 8 minute dubstep intro, followed by 30 seconds of time lapsed un-lit cell phone footage with no audio.
I'm sure he could talk for many hours including a road test and noise/vibration drive. Personally i think it was perfectly fine. - it also shows you get what you pay for, and shows you what to expect from a good product. - 30 minutes isnt a long time
When these were first fitted, no they didn't squeak. Over time though (c.4-5 years) some of the bushes absorbed moisture and expanded which lead to us investigating them fully (the worst culprit was the front lower bush that, when parked on the customers' drive, was in a damper environment being up against a wall). This isn't a biased video, IMO. I have an open mind on most things but it really shows how a product performs over a length of time (to be fair to PowerFlex I don't know whether they have changed their compound since these were made; they may have done). There are some clear advantages of SuperPro though, putting aside the squeaking bushes. If you look at 5min38sec, you can see how the knurling makes the SuperPro bush have far less friction. If you pause at the close up of the internal shot of the PF bush, you may be able to see some friction 'burns' due to the fact that the bush is essentially running dry. I also need a lot less force to push the SuperPro bush down the crush tube at 8mins onward. Remember, once these bushes are installed they are a little tighter around the crush tube which will exacerbate any friction issues. I like that PF use stainless crush tubes vs. the coated steel on SuperPro. With their new silicon based grease, there shouldn't be an issue with corrosion as the tube will be running lubricated all the time. I hope that's answered your question.
I use Poly bushings very often. Mostly in places where there isn't a lot of movement, such as motor mounts, subframe bushings, transmission mount, subframe kicker braces, and on so. I will also use them in Sway bar bushings and end links. I will generally use stock bushings in control arms, and leaf springs, unless it is for racing where a stiffer suspension is needed.
Im on the process of buying that whole kit for a lifted off roading truck ,but no wanting the outcome to be noisy or stiffer ride what you recommend me ?
I would share your disappointment if that happened to me. Are you referring to SuperPro, or another brand? SuperPro have a lifetime warranty, so I would recommend reaching out to them directly.
@@SportDriveSuspension I'm not sure what brand they were, I checked the order, and they do have lifetime warranty but I go spoiled with Toyota OEM stuff that lasts virtually indefinitely. The original bushings were 260,000 mi/22 years old, and were still OK. The reason I replaced them was that the cam bolts were frozen. In any case, I don't feel like doing the same job on a regular basis. For about the same amount, I could (and eventually did) get OEM bushings.
Whiteline Nolathane Powerflex are the biggest polyurethane bush company other than SUPERPRO :) However they are not as good or even close and yet they cost almost close , some cheaper than SUPERPRO some more expensive than SUPERPRO while Powerflex had some bush that sell for 2-3x more expensive than SUPERPRO :) Whiteline Nolathane and SUPERPRO are around the same price more or less ... Powerflex Price is sky high and most expensive but even worse than whiteline Nolathane ... but none is even close to SUPERPRO !
Strange how your powerflex didn't have the crisscross inside them because mine did, also if you had added a washer to the end of the insert it would have made it run free, looks like the insert on yours id a little short, trapping the polly bush, mine work great......you must have had really old stock on your car.
They may do now, but these generation didn't. If you study your competition you might learn something 😉 The main issue was the poly was Hygroscopic and swelled in size over time.
Why do you say that might be a bit of a challenge to get that torque wrench in there with the tire and wheel right in the way. And they dang sure didnt do that on the assembly line when the car was built. That would be like torquing the head bolts while the engine is running
That's true of rubber bushings, but these are technically bearings and therefore does not apply. You can bolt up and rotate it's full range of motion with little effort.
Thank for the very informative video. But you didn't show the Powerflex Bushing reinstalled with any packing grease to see an accurate comparisons. The Powerflex should be pack with liberal amounts of "synthetic" packing grease. Synthetic packing grease can maintain a lube surface of 1/1000 of an inch and will not wash out. The larger problem with any bearing is the quality of the center bearing metal, because oxidation due to cheap metal will annihilate any assembly.
Thank you! If you watch from 5m38s, I investigate the difference between SuperPro's knurling compared to the Powerflex's smooth bore. You'll notice when both are packed with grease, the Powerflex bush was wiped clean once the crush tube is inserted. Remember, that when the bush is installed into the wishbone housing, the bearing clearance is even tighter and no noticible amount of any grease would remain. If you stop the video at 7m28s, you'll notice some 'damage' inside the Powerflex bush. This is because it's been running dry (even though it was originally installed with their recommended grease) and heated due to excessive friction. The bush is sees constant loadings/unloadings, and this will eject any grease quite quickly. I agree with you regarding the metal crush tube needs to remaining corrosion free. I like the fact Powerflex use stainless steel here, and I would like to see SuperPro do the same. I believe that the issue with SuperPro is small though, due to it running in a permanently greased environment.
I still had my LCAs off the car so i just had to hammer out the junk bushings and replace them with Super Pro, I swapped them out Sunday. I had to cut the Super Pro bushings a little shorter than they were but they worked great after that. Thanks alot man, i'm really glad you made this video, definitely great information that everybody needs to know.
Cause I have installed yesterday Powerflex bushes on my Astra H OPC/VXR at the rear axle bushes. They also have hab this hexagon thing inside the hole but not the cones on the outside of the bush. At the front axle I have mount Superpro bushes. Unfortunately Superpro didn’t produce rear axle bushes for my car.
Long term R&D is the key, as well as understanding the FULL design brief and then designing from there. I see it all the time, whereby suspension 'upgrades' limit the movement of the suspension components; think stiff springs and ARBs and dampers that have travel shortened by a third. A great idea to make the car feel faster in the corner, but in reality it isn't.
thanks for the video m8.. very good. I learned a lot. Yes the poorly designed bushes will clearly give shit performance. I agree. OEM bushes are rubber.. very pliable and properly reduce drivetrain noise.. but also built to a price and cut out way too early. Thanks to you I now know how properly engineered Nolathane bushes are better.. and why. The key words are "PROPERLY DESIGNED". You get what you pay for
It's surprising how some people who don't even have polyurethane bushes in their car are so quick to claim that all polyurethane bushes are the same. That is simply not true, and it's clearly demonstrated in this video. Not all polyurethane bushes are created equal, so before you make any assumptions based on hearsay, take the time to do your own research.
May I make a comment, please read the instructions that come with the Powerflex bushes and watch some of the various video 's the company has on RU-vid , they explain quire clearly the correct method of installation and the difference in their operation because of the bush material.
Thanks a lot :) awesome video lots of information, in regards for 00 vw jetta getting the same squeaky noises on dips and speed bumps sucks. Looks like this is a confirmation and needs replacing. I've just replaced the struts and shocks.. It was much needed, but I am still not satisfied with the suspension ride.. control and cornering..
great video but i wanna know whats the best bushing kit out there for my 01 gsr integra. i dont want something to stiff anddeff not squeak. im about to put some buddy club coil overs and i hear poly bushings are bad and squeak .. is hard race the best brand ?.. please tell me your opinion on whats best for my car... i hate to spend 3000$ on a suspension system that sucks and make noise...
I noticed the same (lack of grease) when I installed my nolathane bushes in my "99" GU Patrol so I cut a heap of groves with a hacksaw blade in them (about 1mm deep) to keep some of the grease in place....didn't think of the ends of the bushes grabbing...I'll be checking them soon....
SportDriveSuspension no That's not how it works ANY torquing after the first one will slightly move the bolt increasing the torque on the bolt We are human Inevitably we slightly over torque every time we hear that click Ever work on airplanes? They have one person constantly checking you on every bolt you torque You double check it like that and you have to completely do it again for this exact reason Torque gauges are not all accurate and knowing They are still tools that are inherently flawed Just because you reach the desired torque the first time does mean you'll stop at exactly that torque the second time or that it'll even click the second time at the same exact torque the first time They're can still be a small Amount of moment in the bolt as you torque it the second time because you're human
I used to, but not anymore I'm afraid. I designed a multi-regressive valve that had 4 separate tuning zones for both bump and rebound, but never got them to market. Maybe I should call Lotus!
@@SportDriveSuspension I was about to fit power flex to my Aston Martin DB9 ! If it started squeaking like that I would take it to a breaker yard , doesn’t seem like superpro make bushes for Astons which have a tendency to chop out every 35k miles which you have to buy the complete wishbone £3500 for a complete job. They are missing a lot of business there. Cheers
Polyurethane bushes more soft ? lel ...if you want a nice ride just buy OEM bushing , any polyurethane bushes are much more rigid and u will feel that, believe me . If your car has rubber bushes just buy the same type of bushes , the engineers didnt choose them for no reason
OEM is ok but once you start upgrading stuff the rubber doesnt hold up as well in things like engine or trans mounts. but they too are stiff and you'll notice more vibrations, but your girl friend might like those. lol
I’m pretty sure Power flex checked the effects of binding or stiction as you so eloquently put it when they designed their set up. I’ve nothing against super pro but have fitted many power flex items over a period of years as per supplied instructions with no problems. The centre sleeve is stainless steel and doesn’t corrode and it is this piece that is clamped with the fixing bolt, the grease merely serves to lubricate the clearance between sleeve and the poly bushes which rotate around it with the suspension arm. Not to put to fine a point on it , you are , in my considered opinion both giving a very biased opinion and more importantly talking out of the crack of your arse.
Plus, Powerflex are knurled too. So these seem eBay copies. And *if* they ever fail for one reason or another, they have a lifetime warranty for the first owner. Whereas Super Pro come with 3 years or 36,000 Miles (60,000Km), according to their own site, and that's not lifetime as you stated in your video.
Rubber control arm bushings use their rotational flex to rotate , poly bushings use the center pin as some kind of bearing. I think poly bushings are best in apllications were no rotational movement is needed
That's correct. The crush tube is always going to be the correct length as it has to fit inside a rigid housing. The material has absorbed a load of moisture and swelled.
I'm looking for something better then OEM but I don't want to feel every crack or peace of gravel in the road, I'd like better handling but not at the expense of feeling every thing up my spine. Do you think super pro will do what I need?
They will indeed. To reduce NVH you need to have isolating properties and in a suspension linkage that requires movement. The SuperPro bushes not only allow free rotation but the will also move as the suspension loads. The performance comes from the way they load and unload in a linear and damped manner. Phil
Hi there, Thanks for this good piece of info. I am looking to change my Jetta 2013 suspensions and the same time I think it's a good time to replace some of its bushes. There's a problem though with the expenditure locked in with the struts and shocks, I find myself on a tight budget. I know super pros are pretty good if not the best and yes there are expensive for a good reason too. I therefore have to do this by stages won't be able to change all of them, could you kindly recommend which bushes to change that would immediately make an impact. Thank you very much
I would tend to make the back better than the front first. The last think you want is a stiff front end and sloppy arse (snap-oversteer). I'm sure there's a double entendre in there somewhere.....😜
Thanks so much for this video. I had actually bought a Powerflex set for my mk3 MR2 and was looking for guidance videos prior to fitting them. They went straight back in the post after watching this! My SuperPro set have now been on the car 18months or so and are fantastic. I recommend SuperPro and link your vid to everyone who asks about bushes.
Polyurethane works as a bushing, the OEM rubber parts are the first point of call for suspension action which is critical for a smooth ride. In effect by using polyurethane bushings you are removing one element of a cars suspension. OK for the track but way less good for the road.
@@Dr.IanPlect Poly for road cars ain't good They don't absorb road shocks.There is a reason for rubber OEM bushes.Competition cars yes , road cars no. If it quacks like a duck.
@@Dr.IanPlect Feel free to. Poly is not good for older cars, makes them squeak like shit as they transfer forces through their aging bodies. Again for track use only.
Not exactly like for like is it. You compare the movement of bushes that are about four years old to brand new greased ones! If you fitted brand new greased Powerflex bushes they would move with one finger too!
You're right. The SuperPro bushes are new but I think you've missed some important points: 1. These PowerFlex bushes do not retain grease and therefore new 'greased' bushes would behave no differently to old 'greased' bushes. 2. The internal bore of these PowerFlex bushes are completely smooth. The large advantage of the SuperPro bushes is the knurling to retain grease (see point 1 above) and reduces friction down to a minimum. If you look at the video at 9m and 9m30s look how much extra effort is required to push the crush tube out of the PowerFlex bush. 3. IMO, all the PowerFlex bushes have failed. Depending on their location, all have absorbed moisture to a greater or lesser degree and swelled causing binding within the housing adding further friction. As Polyurethane Bushes are sold as an 'upgrade' for 'better performance, longevity' etc etc over rubber, it is unacceptable, IMO, to be replacing PU bushes within such a short period of time. If you're happy that this is par for the course, then so be it.
SportDriveSuspension No I haven't missed the point. I just don't like misleading information. You can't help yourself. You spout BS in point No.1 in your reply. Of course there will still be a layer of grease on the inside of the bush if it is new and freshly greased!
I think its fair to say that it wasn't a completely like for like or equal comparison as the old bushes were dirty and not freshly greased. If they had been re-install and greased they would probably have had freer movement. The question would be would the blue ones still give more free movement. Possible. It maybe over time where the difference shows if the blue ones don't seize as must as the purple ones. That we cannot compare. Even so, I think the posters points on designer feature benefits of the blue ones seem plausible. Additionally my own point would be that the purple ones have a matt finish which will lend itself to be rough and generate more friction compared the smooth glossy finish of the blue ones. Even though the purple ones are old, the unexposed areas are still not glossy. My request would be that Rob should post a video of greased new purple bushes to prove his point. preferably with some old blue ones.
Just looked at some Powerflex bush pictures and they do looke glossy than these old ones. Is that due to a product change or because they are new. Also on a shot of one black power series it have the internal grooving. If this is the case that Powerflex has made changes over the years to improve their products, it gives evidence to the posters points if PF themselves felt the need to improve them.
Koito rob I don't feel there is misleading information here. Sure they could have intalled a new set of Powerflex to compare like for like. However, I think the engineering features (knurling, bevels, tight tolerances) compared to the powerflex should be evident to anyone. There will be very little or any grease remaining in a brand new powerflex bush after installation. The crush tube is a tight fit within the bush/bushing and it pushes the majority of grease OUT. You so have a very thin film of grease remaining but this will not last long. Bushes that utilize this knurling (superpro and whiteline) keep a little packet of grease within each of the knurl pockets. What is more telling is the basic design of the bush. The bevel used on the SP bush keeps that surface OFF of the wishbone bracket. The large flat surface of the powerflex bush rubs against the bracket and, once the grease wears off (which will be quickly) it will have a massive surface to rub against the bracket. Hence why you see so much resistance to movement (combined with all grease being washed out of the bush over time). I have had experience with powerflex as well (only one's who made a polybush for my car) and I was shocked at the construction of the part. It wasn't even properly drawn and molded. It was obvious they took a mold of an OEM bush and then cast the bush from that. It looked like someone took a spatula of cake fronting and sand and made a bush out of it. No way i would ever buy another powerflex bush.
🤣 I know, a pendant's nightmare! I didn't have the tools onsite to sand blast them and the customer didn't have the budget to have them done somewhere else. Sorry for disappointing you 🤪
I am saddened that car manufacturers (and others) make lousy bushings that can't hold the grease in to make more short-term money! Outstanding analysis sir!
The car manufacturers typically use bonded rubber which has the compliance to do the job, lower NVH and have a long service life (sometimes they get this part a bit wrong). Other part sof the car require rubber if they move dynamically. I see a lot of issues with people using poly bushings where the rotation isn't linear. Spherical would be ideal in those applications, but then you increase cost and lower service life so rubber is again optimal for 99.5% of your customers (though Mazda got pretty wild with the 3rd gen RX7 having 6 sphericals that were a 30k mile service item at several hundred dollars in parts). It's a shame how SuperPro has such a limited catalog because it seems to be the only poly bushing that I would consider. A neat trick that I saw over on StudioVRM.Racing's channel was putting teflon tape around a clean crush tube in a single candy cane fashion and then applying grease and installing it into the bushing. Another option that I saw on some American company's RU-vid was a polyurethane swaybar bushing that has a Delrin insert that sits between the polyurethane and the swaybar. Unfortunately, I think they produced imperial sizes but a bit of mini lathe work could make some solutions.
Your old bushes were made of two pieces, but how do you install a Superpro bush when it's a one piece design? That would have been a nice addition to the video. 👍
@@SportDriveSuspension Thanks. But I did all of my LS400 four corners already in the spring and the bushes were "split" design ones. So no problem at all.
@@SportDriveSuspension Can you elaborate on that. The bushes I used were for front and rear sway bars. I don't think they are available in any other type than split. You are possibly talking about bushes for the suspension joints?
i am sure the flat ended poly bushes swiveled around easily when it was first fitted because of the grease on the ends. that will wash off over time and have friction. you should do another video a few months down the line showing how it swivels
Thank you for this video, I learned something about poly bushes and what to get, good thing I didnt place an order from powerflex yet Id get the ones from strongfle instead as they have the same conical design
just watching your video and am at the knurling bit. I am thinking, not knowing anything about bushes that over time will this knurling wear away with rotation and lead to movement. this is why I would say powerflex has there's flat. with weight on the bush what stops the knurled face getting squashed flat anyway its so thin. good vid tho so far. was thinking of putting powerflex full kit on my t5 transporter. so any help appreciated thanks
I've got a Ford Focus mk2 & tryed PSB bushes on the front track control arms and the left one rear bush virtually fell out of the bracket fortunately it got jammed on part of the floor of the car so didn't come out completely but just goes to show best to buy quality and get it right first time, so replaced both sides those bushes with genuine powerflex purple series shaped like a top hat so they can't escape out the back, problem solved and moves smoothly
Good interesting video, in my personal opinion, I recon all poly bushes for everyday road use are a waste of money because if you replace worn ones with rubber chances are you would have sold the car by the time they fail again years later. I recon rubber will absorb noise etc better, which is priceless because having a harsh ride is real annoying. For the track though, they are probably worth fitting.I have just replaced 12 at the front and 6 at the rear of my Alfa, with standard rubber bushes and it has tightened the handling up massively it's like a new car. I would be very unhappy if I had gone to the trouble and expense of fitting poly bushes, only to have sacrificed ride comfort for slightly tighter handling.
Yes, but I have only one problem! Superpro busches are at least ten time more expensive than the other ones, at least here in Hungary. I understand, that they have a more complex fabrication process, but it's way too expensive !!!
Either the quality is bad or they never greased them like they were supposed to. That's why most people install zerk grease fittings when going poly so they can easily lube them.
@@SportDriveSuspension I have a Volvo s60r . And the thing is very loose with factory bushes. Looking to try sharpen it up and give it a more responsive and direct drive
Yeah I once installed powerflex bushes to both of my rear trailing arms and even if I put grease between the tube and bushing they started sqeaking within a month. To me it seems that Powerflex is not that good.
great content. you forgot to mention that superpro cost 4x more than powerflex. but you certainly get what you pay for. on the other hand, for those with tools, skills & motivation, less well engineered bushings can be modded.
just had a 40mm suspension lift on my 04 Hilux…the installer recommended Superpro…cost was a bit more but boy am i pleased i spent the extra money…my advice…do it!
@ You can't stop a porous material from expanding. You can try and retain the material but that would result in gripping/binding the tube further. You're trying to fix something that shouldn't happen.
@ I'm just not sure why, if you bought a reportedly engineered solution, you'd want to try and shove washers in there. You'd have remove some material each end to allow for the washers, but I dont know how machinable the material is (the bushes looked 100% cast, whereas SuperPro are cast and then have 2-3 ops on a lathe). However a good amount of friction was swelling around the crush tube (you can see the friction 'burn' inside). I would say that's impossible to fix and have a bushing that isn't sloppinng around. Not tryin' to bash ya. Just pointing out a 'fix' is a helluva lot of work. Good luck 👍🏻
