Good idea guys!! Your paddle questionnaire, chart & spreadsheet will allow players to narrow down their options in order to try/demo paddles that fit their play style. 🙌 It will save us alot of time & money...efficient value! 🎉
Vatic Prism is sooo good, still! Had a moment where I moved back from thermo paddles and I love it. The cold press paddles make for fun and controlled points.
A control oriented standard or widebody paddles would benefit a significant percentage of players. I recently went from using a DBD16 for 9 months to a PIKKL HP16. Minimal difference between the hybrid and standard shapes respectively but the HP16 is just a touch softer and that has made a big difference. It's increased my margin of error enough that even on my off nights my level of play is still good. In addition to the FM216 and HP16 there are several standard/widebody paddles soon(ish) to be released like B&B Fat Boy, 11Six24 Monarch and Forza CTRL 2. oh and the Six zero Quartz too!
Great pod Chris. I love the concept of going to your website, fill out your card to your preferences for a paddle and have it spit out your best options. It would be nice to develop that. I went from a DBD to the ALW 12.7. Ironically, I bought it for my wife, and it was to poppy for her, so I gave it a try. While I'm not sure I totally like the length of the handle with like little finger hanging off it gives me enough room. But that paddle feels so good to me and it's controllable unlike the PPE I used for a while. Get your back healthy. It's no fun dealing with back pain.
I play the Volair Forza Mach 2 16mm - actually - I emailed you, Chris, with some questions and you recommended it to me. I’ve been playing with it for 3+ months now and I love it.
Ton of work, much appreciated, your dedication is admired by the devoted to the sport, sadly missed by so many who would benefit. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You....
Love the profile charts! Great idea, Chris. I Appreciate all the work you do testing paddles for those of us that are paddle junkies. Now you are making it super easy for us visual learners.
I think a scale or grade to 100 representing each category will make it much easier to group paddles based on performance characteristics. There’s just so many paddles out there and I can see multiple paddles blurring into one another if you don’t increase spectrum. This will help the end buyer dial in what they should or want to be looking for. Just take an average (mean, mode or median) between you guys to generate some kind of value. Tests done in stock form since everyone likes to add weighted tapes etc. which changes playing characteristics. You, friends or bros can say who prefers or favors this particular paddle (or even mention weight tape mods with location and specs) so the end user can hone in on the paddle user that share similarities in play. 👍
Mainly using the Spartus Apollo and Honolulu J2K but mixing in a lot of other stuff. The main power paddles I’ve liked recently are the J7K Pro and the Paddletek Bantam TKOs
On the last segment about power paddles being over-rated: For the lower-level players like me (4.0), power paddles may work well for a banger... but that's mostly because few of us get out of the way in time to let that shit fly out. Most 4.0 bangers are hitting 50-60% of their drives out, but only 10% get let go to sail out because it's hard for our tiny brains to think that fast and react with a good eye/instinct.
I play with a Ruby with 2 over grips and 3g of lead at 12 o’clock, weighs in at 8.4oz. It is 5 months old and I am losing confidence in its ability to spin. I have recently been playing more with my Prism Flash, which has 2 over grips and 3g of lead at 2 and 10 o’clock. It weighs in at 8.3oz. I feel like I can swing freely with both, more so with the Prism Flash.
Your comments about control paddles bringing consistency is totally true for me. For a while I was bouncing back and forth between a Power Air S2 and a Joola Radius 16mm and whenever my main doubles partner wanted us to play good he'd make me play with the Joola!
I went from gearbox cx14h to a gearbox pro power fusion and it took me 6 weeks adjusting but I absolutely love my pro power and I feel it has great control and touch but I am a touch player. This paddle definitely gave me the power I needed. I just got the elongated and hopefully I can adjust I never have liked the elongated paddles of any brand but I wanted the slightly better sweet spot. PPA San Clemente here we come!
As a clarification, voltaren was never illegal in the US. You just needed a preacription for it. It just recently became available over the counter :) Great stuff, though!
I enjoyed the podcast and made it to the kitchen. I have seen and heard Aizec’s voice when he was giving his review during your paddle reviews, so I knew that it was not you. I am a control player, so I have been switching between the BNB Shogun and Six Zero Triple Black Diamond (The Willinator). I have a better chance to get the ball back over the net with a control paddle playing against power players. Aizec needs to be in more podcasts, because I like hearing his paddle reviews and his take on what is going on in pickleball. Thank you.
I think it comes down to the style of play of your opponents as well. Like where I play at the 3.5 level, we never even get to the dinking stage half the time and if we do its maybe for 2 hits. Its just constant banging and without a poppy power paddle you tend to lose more points. I guess with a control paddle you could reset the ball trying to get back into dinking but its mostly people trying to speed up every ball.
I prioritize Power over Control, the two buzz words in pickleball, because I have been playing tennis since high school varsity. Currently I am using the Joola Perseus 3, that replaced my Gearbox Pro Power Elongated. Contrary to what you have said, I can produce some amazing reset drop shots using the Perseus 3. If you have spent enough time with it, you can learn how to control the crazy pop of the paddle.
I agree...when coming from a Gearbox Pro the Perseus feels like a control paddle to me. Dialing in the GP makes dialing in the Perseus super easy. I felt it was almost a trainer paddle for the Perseus. But I'm in the court where the Gearbox felt 20% more powerful (especially on overheads). But yeah the Perseus' sweet spot is major compared to the GP plus with the added spin you can shape balls more downward with the Perseus. Now I am worried I'm going to have to find another paddle to use. Come on Joola bring some clout to the table (that you have) and get it re-approved.
Anyone else the inverse of the power player who hits with a control paddle?? I’m a control player who hits with a Geabox Pro Power Elongated weighed to 10.75oz. I’ve slowly worked up to this weight, balancing the pros and cons of slower hand speed and higher twist weight. I think I’m at the sweet spot for me. (I can static hang on a pull-up bar for over 3 minutes so I have somewhat freakish wrist/grip strength.) My paddle journey: Gearbox CX-14e (pre ultimate), Pro Kennex Black Ace Elongated, Gearbox Pro Power Elongated. When I play with a control paddle, I would get overmatched during hands battles and my speed ups would always be countered aggressively. Switching to a power paddle solved this problem. And I’ve had no adverse effects to my drops, resets, and dinks. An unintended benefit of switching to a power paddle is it added a punishing third shot drive to my toolbox. This has been an absolute game changer to my mixed doubles game, where I’ll literally drive every third I can get my paddle on with great success. (James Ignatowich style which he shared on the Briones Podcast. I don’t know how successful this strategy would be for me if I were using a control paddle.) In gender doubles, my default programming is to drop my third, fifth, etc. on the way to the kitchen. But, with a power paddle, I can also drive the third if my opponent is really skilled at attacking the drop effectively off the bounce. The power paddle arms me with another option.
Please use Voltaren sparingly. Not meant for long term use. Available in topical and oral formulations. Over the counter in the US. Weekend warriors love that stuff but you can do more damage than good as it only addresses the symptoms and not the root cause.
My pickleball play style is exactly like Will’s. I’d rather bang my way into the kitchen than play the soft game and avoid speed ups. I tried the ruby 16mm tonight and I was able to swing out. If I get a lesser swing weight paddle than the nova r3, I’d probably instantly be 5.0+ in doubles.
For your Paddle Charts/Cards, you can have a base scale (one paddle at the bottom, or middle, or top) that all other paddles are referenced to (mathematically linked in the background). Then as the landscape shifts, you update the base paddle which is the reference for all others, and then all of your paddle database would shift accordingly. You could also use a “fictional” paddle for the reference one too. Still a lot of work though. For Spin, I think you should add spin longevity. Paint grit is good out of the box but goes downhill fast vs, carbon fiber/kevlar.
My paddle progression over the last 7 months has been Luxx -> Mach 2 Forza -> Mach 1 Forza -> Gen 3 Perseus/Hyperion. The Luxx gave me confidence in the soft game which was good for me at the time. The Mach 2 Forza was still good for my soft game but it added a lot of handspeed that the Luxx lacked. The Mach 1 Forza gave me back the elongated paddle shape that I prefer and a bit more power over the Mach 2. I got 2 Gen 3s to test and review and I've been playing with them since the launch. It took me a week to get my soft game dialed back in with the Gen 3 paddles. I could go back to the Mach 1 Forza if I had to. I might experiment with it sometime this week just to see how that might affect my game now.
Isaac I also suffered a grade 2 concussion in my last tournament during the gold medal game. I blacked out for a couple of mins and then continued to play but probably shouldn’t have. Glad to see you are doing ok and still got Bronze
I love the power paddles but I am 100% with the thought on that probably being the result of more errors. the Joola Gen3s are FAR easier to control than the Gearbox (I have both). I have recently gotten my hands on the Apollo and I'm in love. This paddle feels like a control paddle with more power and pop than expected -- perhaps a light all court paddle -- it is a fantastic paddle. I feel my game has gotten much better using this paddle -- so I totally under the Forza Mach 2 perspective Chris has.
re: your new presentation on characteristics of a paddle. First, kudos for using a bar chart. From a data visualization perspective they are superior to radar/spider charts even though they don't look as cool. Second, I have mixed feelings on the spin metric being included. On one had I think it needs to be in there but maybe the 1 vs 5 zone needs to be tighter in RPMs because all paddles now are getting better spin numbers (so maybe a 1 is 1900 and a 5 is 2400). Contrast that to my believe that when these manufacturer's send you guys paddles they hand pick them with the most grit. I've purchased numerous paddles over the years (and I am a huge fan of big spin potential) and not one of the paddles I received had anywhere near the grit/spin of the paddle's you guys tested.
I was using a weighted dbd 16 for a while and switched to a Ruby when it came out, and I don't think I'll ever switch. I don't even use lead on it because the extra weight gives a bigger sweet spot and it has a lower swing weight so my hands got a bit faster. Perfect paddle for me
Live in the Midwest, play mostly indoors on a rubberized surface using Onix recruit balls. Playing with a Vatic Pro Flash since January three times a week, still looks perfect and grit seems unchanged. Thought about getting an ONI from Vatic but I think I'm pretty satisfied with the Pro Flash. Had some problems with my wrist due to shock, added a Hesacore gel undergrip and a VT Advantec overgrip. Level likely 3.5-4.0.
I have been using a Forza machine 2 16mm. Just bought the 14mm and weighted down similar to Brian with 4 grams of his tape on each side . Wanted a drop more pop but without losing any control. My wife is using my 16 mm. I am recovering from a hip injury, so haven’t played it yet. I also ordered the Honolulu J2K for myself
Such a good discussion about power and other paddle aspects, and how it actually impacts the game or compensates for the player. I've always been much more of a control/defensive oriented player. When I hurt my elbow, I switched to pronounc's, and all their paddles had more pop and power than I was used to playing. I ended up with the Black Ace for 8 months and learned how to manage the extra power. Then I switched to the gearbox pro power fusion because it was more forgiving and had a little more control than the Black Ace. So, I'm still definitely more of a finesse player learning how to capitalize on the power of the gearbox little-by-little.
Im using the Vatic Pro Oni at around a 4-4.5 level and I switched from a Ruby. The oni is definitely more powerful but has not hit levels of power that Chris' did. My biggest takeaway is that it is so fun to use a power paddle because you almost have to relearn the soft shots and it has made hitting dinks, drops, and resets that much more rewarding
Made it to the kitchen, as always. I’ll say, if there is any episode to watch on Yt, this is the one. Also, do y’all actually hang up the phone when you sign off?
It's very interesting because I got into the power paddle with a gearbox and Joolas..ECT. I then broke out one of my first paddles ..the Gearbox 14H . LOL I still remember you reviewed this paddle and said it was way too soft even then. I played excellent with. I think you can get used to anything but having that extra confident control really helps the brain and I think that's important
Kitchen question for Chris: Is it the head heaviness or the static weight of higher swingweight paddles that bothers you? On my FX R3, I put 2 overgrips and a little bit of tungsten to help the twistweight, but positioned it so that I have a more balanced paddle top to bottom, even if it is around 9.1oz static weight. It seems like "maneuverability" would be more affected by balance + swingweight rather than just the swingweight.
I play with hyperion gen3 and i dont like to swing hard. So i feel like i gained alot more control over the C2. Its like having powersteering for my drops, resets, dinks. I had to give much more input to get same results. I feeling my mood or attitude at the time effected how my paddle would play. I feel that alot less in gen 3. I find it so funny that people hating on gen 3 when the gearbox power hits WAY harder, and its harder to place against because the sound is so low it is hard to judge that ball is coming 100 mph from the old banger
The chart idea is great. Do it. Some good insights on power paddles vs control. I’m using an Azul these days and liking it. Seems like an all court paddle these days
I been rocking the Six Zero Ruby which feels good at everything. I’ve considered a super power paddle but I just love playing the Ruby. Shogun is my backup.
I tilt my head like a dog whenever Will says "Toarnament". I just switched from the CRBN 3x 14mm to the Shogun. I thought I was a power paddle player, but I think I changed to All Court.
I have been using a Forza machine 2 16mm. Just bought the 14mm and weighted down similar to Brian with 4 grams of his tape on each side . Wanted a drop more pop but without losing any control. My wife is using my 16 mm. I am recovering from a hip injury, so haven’t played it yet. I also ordered the Honolulu J2K for myself . Also why can’t you just add some weight to your control paddle to get more ploy thru ?
@chris I know how you feel. I had to take a month off at least for that, along with my tennis elbow. Mine is like on the right side, hip/back/glutes and I did PT exercises during the time off. What your PT is going to do is CORE strengthening mainly. I'm now back playing. It still hurts like in the morning or after play but it's not as bad as before because my core is now stronger. Some ibuprofen also helps 😊 but stretching also helps. Although honestly, I think my tennis elbow was more or at least equally painful at the same time. I maybe able to move but with a bad case of tennis elbow, it's even worse cuz you can't hit the way you used to. I used Voltaren too by the way. But ya, you will need to shutdown for at least a month and work on your CORE if you want this to go away for good or at least make the pain manageable. Good luck
Now that the USAP has said they are not approving the newly submitted Joola Gen3s can you all recommend a paddle with the same control feel as the 16mm Scorpeus but also has some power and pop? I use a LUXX and enjoyed it at first but I want more power
I have the Magnus and cannot use it in my MLP tournament this weekend, so I have had been playing with my old Gearbox CX 14. I can't believe how much more confident I am with that old Gearbox CX 14. It does make me think I should stay with a control paddle. But the Magnus is a blast to hit!
I have a good serve and good dinks…drives are ok, hands are ok…drops are bad. I play with a Black Diamond Infinity right now with weight 1” from the handle 6g each side. I did play with the gearbox and I developed PB elbow due to the SW and my touch game suffered tremendously. My elbow is pretty much better only slight soreness after a session. I might be ready for an average SW paddle in a few months and might purchase the Black Diamond. This was tied with the BDI when I was testing the Six Zero lineup. I went t with the BDI because of the low SW. I love Six Zero and would like to test the Ruby with the BD when Six Zero releases some new paddles soon hopefully. All in all I think my mind is now drawing towards an all court paddle rather than a low SW paddle. Thoughts anyone?
The BD and BDI are both great! I like the raw power of the BD but the BDI is more powerful and def more solid feeling. It’s been hard to go back to the BD. They should make the BDI in 14mm!
And with one video, Chris moves the paddle industry back to control…. Just like that 😂 And swing weights… anyone who purchases a firearm and chooses the lightest, smallest one, QUICKLY realizes that’s a mistake for beginners who can’t control it. I equate the same to pickleball. If you can handle the weight…. Weight that sucker up.
Lol I doubt it. 😂 Power paddles are still waaaaaay more fun to play with than control paddles. I just think that people don't realize what it is costing them.
The active drug in Voltaren is diclofenac. I have used the topical cream for my tennis elbow, but it hasn't helped. My ortho prescribed 75mg of the pill form diclofenac. Hopefully you won't need the pill version.
Finally. 😂 I'm dyin'. Y'all, Voltaren has been around for YearS...just not as an OTC. Usually used for arthritis pain. 😂 Welcome, Chris Olsen & Ben Johns, to 'old age.'
I knew right away it wasn't Chris talking. I assumed it was Will pretending to be the host. I wasn't paying close attention at the time. If fans can't recognize your voice, they obviously don't love you enough yet! The Pop category might cover this, but I would be interested in seeing a measure of plushness and a measure of stiffness or crispness. For spin, maybe just include the spin number as opposed to rating it. As paddles develop, maybe you can add another number to the scale. Right now, the scale goes up to 5, but say power increases, you can make the scale go up to 6. Viewers just need to pay attention to what the max number on the scale was at the time of the review.
I'm on the 4.0/4.5 bubble (4.385), and my paddle selection is the complete opposite of what my game style would warrant. I prefer the soft game (90% 3rd shot drops and lots of dinking), but I use the Engage Pursuit Pro EX 6.0 (weighted (head heavy) to over 10 ounces).
Let Aizec know he’s in good company with Collin Johns and getting tagged in the nuts whilst playing Pickleball. 🤪 Made it to the kitchen. Love control paddles and use KiwiLab Slice, BNB Loco, and presently trying out Spartus Apollo. Waiting for BNB FatBoy to release. Congratulations to Will & Aizec on the silver.
18:55, That was a nice segway to the result from PPA Amateur in Texas. The medals look nice and do look heavy around the neck. Heavy and or big awards are nice to receive.
Oh i forgot to mention, if I overplay and it start hurting bad, the recovery time for me is much better now. Instead of at least a week or so, now it's just a couple days and I'm back
May want to consider an “X factor” or “Feel” line in the chart. This would be a very subjective assessment, but would bring in your opinion on the paddles which I think many would find valuable (since most of us are not able to try the number of paddles that you do).
Maybe if someone was listening on really cheap headphones.... and that's a very slight maybe. Also, per the inquire from THE KITCHEN: I'm currently using the Hurache-X Control+. Started with the DBD, have tried firend's Ruby's and Locos... currently waiting on my Apollo.
