Predestination debate: For whom did Christ die? - Part 1 

False teacher

Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased. But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit. This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.". .

My God of the Bible has been a tremendous blessing to me. Not James White. God bless you.

More than half of protestants reject faith-alone. You and white are in the minority.

@@mercibeaucoup2639 Dumb comment

​@@michaelmannucci8585 THE ROMANS ARE TO BLAME FOR DEATH OF JESUS. AND YOU ARE ONE OF THEM. NOW THAT’S A DUMB COMMENT LOL. MR. MANNUCCI, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ITALIANS LIKE YOU. ACTUALLY, MY MOTHER WAS BORN IN PALERMO. WAS MY MESSAGE SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXPIALIDOCIOUS.

@@weobeyjesus4565 faith alone is what saves. Whites calvinism isn't biblical but salvation by grace through faith is clear

Both of these gentlemen are doing that. Everything about the Christian faith is important that's why we debate about it. It would be good if you contribute and stick to the main issue. No one is arguing against what you're saying.

Step 1: make a comment that God should be our focus, even though we are literally discussing Him. Step 2: pretend anybody involved in the discussion is somehow not glorifying God and is in desperate need of rebuke. Step 3: if somebody challenges my claim, pivot quickly and throw out another one liner about unity or God being in control and go back to step 1. Step 4: smile after successfully stifling important discussions that believers should be having.

The issue is how we evangelize based off what is true.

We absolutely can reconcile predestination and "free will" because when we read through the entirety of Scripture we find that man's concoction of "free will" doesn't exist in Scripture or reality, only a creaturely will that is enslaved to sin and unrighteousness before the Lord sovereignly breaks those chains and then enslaves us to Himself, the good and righteous King of kings.

What part of the "world" part you don't understand? If God is infinite in all that He is, suddenly He "changes" His mind and becomes stingy by only atoning for the few? If God IS LOVE, how come He creates the majority in order to send them to hell?

@@solitarypawn5076 since God is omniscient and omnipotent He has the power and plan to create men knowing they are reprobate. Why does He create them at all? It is His plan and Romans 9 tells us that He gets glory in (rightfully) punishing sin (vessels of wrath).

@@hsdjsdshdhsdnsmsd6247 God still created them so you don't get Him off the hook by denying His sovereignty. Read 1 Timothy in context. Paul writes about all KINDS of people (vs 1-2). Keep reading, does Jesus meditate (vs 5) and pay the ransom (vs 6) for every single person who ever lived? Of course not, that would be universalism!

@@jackykimes Ah, calvinists favorite word: "sovereignty". I read the context and it doesnt support your interpretation. Paul doesnt say "all kinds of people", thats what you want to read into it. I dont deny Gods "sovereignty" since I dont deny that God has the power to create people just to put them in hell. However, that would make him a sadistic monster worse than Hitler. Just because God has the power to do something, doesnt meant that He does it. And yes, Jesus paid the ransom for ALL people. The people just have to accept that gift.

@@hsdjsdshdhsdnsmsd6247 Let me just say that you (and countless others) misunderstand the fact that Adam and Eve had complete free will and chose to dishonor God's command. Just one command at that. Now we are all under sin and by default a byproduct of that fall. We are all guilty of condemnation, and we are all responsible for everything we do. This is the part that everyone misses. God doesn't have to save any of us, but the fact that He does is a testament to His grace and mercy. The notion that God being completely sovereign upsets some people is the height of arrogance in demanding that we be the master of our own fate. That is what apostacy looks like. The converse of that is men 'just have to accept that gift', which still doesn't get God 'off the hook'. For why would a "loving God" create a race of humans knowing full well that most would reject that gift and suffer the fate of condemnation? That isn't very loving. He didn't think that one out? In either case, you are putting God on the hot seat for failing to insure that all are saved. Why would a loving God allow disease, or famine, or disabilities? And why would a resurrected Christ only appear to a few, when appearing to as many as possible would seem to have given more people the opportunity to believe???

😂 You’ve never read the Bible outside of your theology books, right? What’s the difference between you and a Catholic reading scripture through their creeds?

Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."

Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."

@@Mike-qt7jp As I have shown, only some are not imputed with sin, who are called "blessed".

I would start with a central issue - What/who are the Elect? Where do we find the definition of elect? I would start with this study and begin by making the standard for the definition to only be found in Scripture. Get yourself a Hebrew and greek lexicon and concordance, finding every usage of Elect in greek, find it in the septuagint, and cross reference it with the hebrew, and see how it was translated into our own language. After finding every usage in every form, I would make a spreadsheet for easy reference as you go, then you can come back to those passages dealing with election and predestination. Take also the specific versus general calls of God seen throughout, and see in which usages it has fallen into. My take away from using the induction method: It is not one or the other but both. God calls all to repentance and provides the way and ability to all. BUT. God also calls specific people for a purpose of His will in order to spread the Gospel and fulfill His plan. We have both usages, but ultimately, I would argue for Libertarian free will working inside of God's plan, in which He calls all people and draws everyone to Himself through the Gospel and calls us to obey Him and spread the Gospel to all nations making disciples. Everyone is called and can be saved, but only those who will place their faith in Christ receive the full calling and predestining. Predestining to what? To adoption as sons (and daughters) of God and eternal life with Him, and called to good works prepared beforehand in Christ. Certain were chosen, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc were chosen to be the physical chain through which Messiach would come. Jesus was the only one chosen before the foundation of the world that those who place their faith in Him would then be predestined to what is mentioned above. That is what I found and concluded, but, again, I encourage you to study it yourself starting with definitions found in Scripture, not definitions imposed by a particular view of the doctrines as it will skew your lenses and it will become more of a confirmation bias for that view you are looking for. Let the Word be taken as it stands and let God be true and every man a liar. God bless, and enjoy your walk through Scripture.

Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."

​@@Elmarias777Well said My Fellow Christian.

Limited atonement is contrary to what's clearly stated in scripture. So id say it's eissegesis

Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."

***** Amen Keith- I think Brown and White are good examples for us both to follow as they model how brothers can interact over issues we disagree on. Blessings and Love.

Don Jay Amen, man. I'm Armenian in my view on this particular topic. I find it disgusting when "fundamentalists" call Calvinists "satanic". Some of my family hold this view. This is a disagreement within the church. It's a disagreement. People interpret different passages of Scripture clearly. White is an amazing scholar and so is Brown. Point blank, we're the Church. We're supposed to be bonded, whether Calvinist or Armenian. Disagreements happen, between friends and family. It's obvious disagreements shall arise between us Christians as well. But, the point remains, we're brothers and sisters in Christ. Family comes first.

Its interesting that any one who knows JESUS can call James White is a brother in Christ.

In other debates and on his show, Mr White comes across as very arrogant

Why do you mock? Does it further the debate? I could turn that prayer around just as easy.

I mock because Michael Brown rejects the Gospel. It is heresy. Predestination unto salvation, God's sovereign power to save whom He will when He chooses, the particular death of Christ for His sheep only are core watermarks of genuine Biblical Christianity. Search: 4345819 on youtube for helpful teaching.

Roy Lange 1) How does Brown reject the Gospel? Define your claim. 2) How has Brown propagated heresy? That is a serious accusation to make. Define your claim. I could say that 'Limited Atonement' rejects the Gospel and that it too is heresy? But what would that prove? Claims mean very little, nor do 'Statements of Faith'. You make a claim and 'Statement of Faith', but do not substantiate it with Scripture. However, any learned and open minded Christian would admit the Scriptures can affirm both views. You say "helpful teaching". I have read Augustine, Calvin, Owen, (Synod of Dort) Westminster Confession (Chapter 3 Paragraph 6) and modern Calvinists, (MacArthur, Piper, Nicole, Sproul etc) and am familiar with the Augustine & Pelagian Controversy.

Simon Peter Sutherland Brown rejects the Gospel in the sense that He rejects the clearly stated doctrines of the truth about how an individual is saved. The Bible says it is based on God's unconditional election of His good pleasure and will, and God reprobates whom He will. The whole theme of the Bible is divine election. Particular, or limited atonement is repeatedly and plainly set forth in Scripture for any honest reader. If you read Owen and know the position of so called TULIP, and reject it, you reject the very framework and watermarks of the genuine Gospel, that no serious and honest Bible student can dispute.

Roy Lange 2. I would also like to add that you say to reject " TULIP" is to reject the Gospel. Are you willing to affirm that view in light of the information that neither John Wycliffe, or the 16th century Reformers William Tyndale, Thomas Cranmer, Martin Luther, John Frith and so forth all rejected or denied the Gospel because they clearly did not agree with a 'Limited Atonement' or 'Irrisistible Grace'. I realize they were pre 'Synod of Dort' and the systematization of 'Tulip', but their writings affirm they saw no 'Limit' to the redemptive purposes of God in Christ. Even John Bunyan in the 17th century did not agree to 'Dorts' recent affirmation of 'Limited Atonement'. Because Calvin was vague on the issue, there is a case to say he never taught 'Limited Atonement'. In his commentaries Calvin appears to affirm the scriptures reveal that God had no limited intentions to the redemptive purposes of God. Concerning Romans 5: 18 Calvin wrote the following; "He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God’s benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive Him." (Calvin's Commentaries Volume X1X. P 211. Romans 5: 18) This and many more texts affirm that there is a case to claim that even Calvin himself may not have taught 'Limited Atonement'. Even John Owen in 'Death of Death' refers to Calvin only once. Why is that?

Very well said!!!

Keep reading your Bible

@@annad8636 I just quoted the Bible, you didn’t because you have no reply. I’ll let that speak for itself.

@@JoshuaTCoe Election is the act of God whereby in eternity past He chose those who will be saved. Election is unconditional, because it does not depend on anything outside of God, such as good works or foreseen faith (Romans 9:16). This doctrine is repeatedly taught in the Bible, and is also demanded by our knowledge of God. To begin with, let's look at the biblical evidence. The Bible says prior to salvation, all people are dead in sin--spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-3). In this state of death, the sinner is utterly unable to respond to any spiritual stimulus and therefore unable to love God, obey Him, or please Him in any way. Scripture says the mind of every unbeliever "is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8, emphasis added). That describes a state of total hopelessness: spiritual death. The effect of all this is that no sinner can ever make the first move in the salvation process. This is what Jesus meant in John 6:44, when He said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him." This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God's work. Consider these passages: In Acts 13:48 we read, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 16:14 tells us that Lydia was saved when, "... the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Romans 8:29-30 states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Ephesians 1:4-5,11 reads, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will ... also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will." Ephesians 2:8 says even our faith is a gift from God. In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation." Second Timothy 1:9 informs us that God "has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity." Occasionally someone will suggest that God's election is based on His foreknowledge of certain events. This argument suggests that God simply looks into the future to see who will believe, and He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. Notice that 1 Peter 1:2 says the elect are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father," and Romans 8:29 says, "whom He foreknew, He also predestined." And if divine foreknowledge simply means God's knowledge of what will happen in advance, then these arguments may appear to have some weight behind them. But that is not the biblical meaning of "foreknowledge." When the Bible speaks of God's foreknowledge, it refers to God's establishment of a love relationship with that person. The word know, in both the Old and New Testament, refers to much more than mere cognitive knowledge of a person. Such passages as Hosea 13:4-5; Amos 3:2 (KJV); and Romans 11:2 clearly indicate this. For example, 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was "foreknown before the foundation of the world." Surely this means more than that God the Father looked into the future to behold Christ! It means He had an eternal, loving relationship with Him. The same is true of the elect, whom we are told God "foreknew" (Romans 8:29). That means He knew them--he loved them--before the foundation of the world. If God's choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God's choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God. The Bible affirms human responsibility right alongside the doctrine of divine sovereignty. Moreover, the offer of mercy in the gospel is extended to all alike. Isaiah 55:1 and Revelation 22:17 call "whosoever will" to be saved. Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved. First Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God is not willing that any should perish, but desires that all should be saved. Finally, the Lord Jesus said that, "the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37). In summary, we can say that God has had a special love relationship with the elect from all eternity, and on the basis of that love relationship chosen them for salvation. The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer. We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.

@@annad8636 You said we are spiritually dead before we enter into the covenant with Christ. 100% agree. You said: “The effect of all this is that no sinner can ever make the first move in the salvation process. This is what Jesus meant in John 6:44, when He said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him." This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God's work.” 100% agree. You said: “Foreknowledge (Romans 8:29)” is to say God loved the elect before the foundation of the world. 100% agree. You again: “God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God.” Predestination means we don’t have a choice. You're saying we have choice here, debunking your own argument. You again: “Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved.” Again, you’re destroying the idea we’re predestinated. If we’re predestinated we have no choice. How then, can we be commanded to choose to turn, repent, and be saved? If we were predestined we couldn’t choose and if we couldn’t choose then God’s command telling us to choose would be nonsensical. Not to mention it would make Him evil for sending people who had no choice in the matter to hell. More of you: “The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer.” Now you’re off the rails. You just spent many many words proving my point, not yours. Now, when you get to the end you say God left some out. He didn’t leave anyone out. It says He wants all to be saved. If it was up to Him no one would be left out. The truth is the sinner leaves themself out. That’s the part where they chose to sin/reject God. You for the last time: “We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.” Accept here, on your view, they don’t operate in harmony with love. How can a loving God create someone, give them no choice in the matter, and send them to eternal torment? How could that possibly be just? It couldn’t be, so free choice must be given to justify condemnation. If not, God isn’t just. Currently, on your view that people can be sent to hell of no fault of their own… God isn’t just. That’s something you have to reconcile with your position. Lastly, you didn’t address my arguments. 1) God desires all men to be saved. So if God predestined anyone to a destination He’d be predestinating them to heaven, because your bible says His desire is everyone go there. And if God predestines one to heaven He must predestinate all to heaven because your bible says God does not show favoritism. 2) Your bible says explicitly that God gives us a choice (Deut 30:19) to live [be saved] or die [remain in spiritual death]. If we have the choice to choose we aren’t predestined because predestination says we don't have a choice in our destination because it's already been chosen. But we do have the choice to be saved or not, so predestination cannot be the case.

Roy Lange Explain the verses that say God wants everyone to be saved then??? 1 timothy 2:4 "who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth". If he predestined the "elect" before sin was even in the world. Then there is no way God really wants "everyone to be saved". The fact that You Say anyone who does not believe in your opinion in not a serious Bible student is very ignorant and it is very disappointing that you could be that prideful. You could be right, Who knows. But to say anyone who doesn't believe what you believe isn't a serious Christian is just not right. Both these debaters made some great points! Both are great christian examples.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, ESPECIALLY of THOSE THAT BELIEVE.

You need to read all of that passage and not take it out of context

Yes, but he saves the flies and mosquitoes and spiders...😆😂😅 Including the fish...

Youre stucked on that one verse that out of context

A dead man can't respond to the Gospel. He must be regenerated. If he's regenerated he's one of the Elect. God doesn't cause the non elect to be regenerated. Only those who were given to Christ come to Him.

GOD's CHOICE

Respectful here, but White’s usual modus operandi is not so

But the Gospel as you see it is unjust, since Jesus came only to save the Elect, the rest of the world can literally 'go to hell'. I will question what is pleasing to God when God is interpreted by men.Thus, if as you say, "God demands obedience" then why does He command all men everywhere to repent" Acts 17: 30, if He has condemned them already?

"We" is a very loose word from you. I'm not questioning God, I'm questioning your 17th century puritan separatist worldview. Owenisn is no eternal authority whatsoever!

Acts 13:48

@@ManlyServant And where does that ordaining exclude anyone? Luke does not say fore-ordained, neither does he reference an assembly determined from eternity but what was done then. G5021 does not reference any predestination, but an arranged appointment.

@@SimonPeterSutherland im just quoting,but you get defensive even without me telling what is my stance in comment,this shows that this verses testifies against you

Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."

WuAgent Bingo! That's it.ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-MqA3tyBpN4E.html

was looking for this comment hahaha

You are one of the greatest practitioners of libel I have seen on the internet.

@douglasmcnay644 thanks ! But prove it slanderer . James White strawman everyone that disagrees with him and it takes an ideologue not to recognize this . Prove your slander against me or apologize or admit you're just a kid that runs your mouth without knowing what your talking about .

Prior to creation, how could God have had infallible foreknowledge of Himself making a free choice (How it could be a free choice yet infallibly foreknown I don't know) to create this particular world in which he knew the evil choices of His creatures would consequentially exist, without intending to make this infallibly foreknown free choice (Unintended free choice!! Yes it gets stranger) to create this particular world because He knew all the evil choices His creatures would make as a consequence and He did not want to cause evil things to happen?

Exactly, because if your are wrong in your thought process, then you will be consistently wrong...

Determining everything that happens in God's universe that he created is not force at all. It's quite easy for him. Who has such a great view of man that he thinks God would have to force anything? Making everything happened the way he wants it to happen is nothing for him. No force needed.

+BrinkTheGamer This was the 1st time for me to consider; if Jesus is continually interceding for those that he died for, then this would mean he also is praying for those who are in hell! Superb insight!!

Good points. I personally think that last segment was the most intense!

Yes, very good points indeed. There are many related backup points to the first. One very simple one that comes to mind was when Christ prayed saying I do not pray those, I pray for the ones you gave me. This means that there is an isolated group for whom Christ prays (intercedes), that being the case, that means that there are some for whom he does not pray(intercede). And if there is no interceding for those persons, it means necessarily that he did not die for them.

+BrinkTheGamer Totally agree.

BrinkTheGamer Excellent. Dr. Brown, although sincere, seems to have real blind spot, seeing this point+

Simon Peter Sutherland wrong. Church is for the congregation of believers.

do you really believe that god played duck duck damn with people on earth?

You believe in Calvin not Christ.

@@vrz2000 Lolol wow

@@myraride9563 I believe what the Bible teaches

@@dustinnyblom7835 It was a genuine question, do you really think this all loving god of christianity damned people before they were born

Lolol no it’s people not willing to submit to scripture

The elect are sinners before being saved. Now the saved don't love for the sin but for God.

Alex Morton Why there are so many people in hell ? Can’t God save them ?

@@SamitoJesus1 People do not come because they are in denial about their wickedness. …19 And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and DOES NOT COME into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. (John 3:19-20)

We can have free will because God is Sovereign, do nottry to find answer on your own, or answer the question through calvin. Just simplt trust what the word says.

Many errors here. You should bring things up one at a time. For example, when Romans 2 says God shows no partiality, are you familiar with the context? Paul is saying that both Jews and Gentiles will be judged by the same standards, God's righteous standards. It's not saying there's no election, God doesn't choose to show mercy on some and judge others. Look at the context. Never just pull quotes from here and there. Watch the video again. Do you understand what White is arguing from the book of Hebrews? Read the book. What does it teach about the atonement?

Pharaoh was already a non believer. He chose that path, therefore God used him for His glory!

skymiles18 Pharaoh did not choose his on path. Scripture is clear that God determines who will be saved, look at these verses........Romans 8:29 , 1 Peter 1:2 , Ephesians 1:4 , tells us that God chose us before the foundation of the world. Believers are predestined Romans 8:29-30 , Eph. 1:5, 11 and elected for salvation Romans 9:11, 11:28 , 2 Peter 1:10. The Sovereignty of God means that He has total control of everything, things past, present and future. God has chosen to save those on whom He has set His love Romans 9:8-13. We do have free will, where free will comes in is if we choose to obey God after He has Saved us, or do we choose to willfully sin. If we choose to willfully sin and not stop, we could commit " the sin unto death " this is where a saved person continues to sin and God takes them, their physical body. he won't let them live here on earth anymore, but ther salvation is not in question here because once you are saved, you belong to God and nothing will ever snatch you from His hand. You have been born again, you have God's seal upon you. You cannot be unborn. The Holy Spirit promises that once He has taken up residence in you , He will never leave you.

That this is NOT the correct understanding of the atonement is shown by the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant in Matthew 18. 26 Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 His master had compassion on him, FORGAVE HIS DEBT, and RELEASED HIM. (Matthew 18:26-27) Was this man really forgiven, redeemed and set free from his debt of sin? Jesus said he was. However, when the servant refused to extend the same grace to another servant the Master judged him. 32 Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed. (Matthew 18:32-34) Having accepted and then refused grace the man was sentenced to torment for a debt he could never pay back. In this parable, we see that after person is FORGIVEN the Lord can subsequently REINSTATE his original debt. This would not be possible in James White's paradigm because that would amount to "double jeopardy" Obviously, there is something wrong with the penal substitution model of the atonement.

Saint Augustine Thomas Aquinas George Whitfield John Calvin Martin Luther John MacArthur R C Sproul are just some of the names that agree with predestination. I used to believe like you did until I studied church history. If that parable trips you up I would suggest reading a commentary from reformed theology.

@@JesusSaviorJudge First of all, this parable does not "trip me up" I find no contradiction in what it says and my view of the atonement. Therefore, I have no particular need to invent a hermeneutic that "explains" the obvious meaning of the parable. Christ's teaching are the rule by which we measure the conclusions of theologians and their systems - not, vice versa. I am somewhat puzzled by your remark that studying Church history is what lead you to see the correctness of Reformed Theology when Church history shows clearly that Augustine's views were inconsistent and even contradictory to the FOUR CENTURIES of teaching that preceded him. Surely your study of Church history has shown you that the Ante-Nicene fathers denied both absolute determinism and total human inability.

@@JimiSurvivor I am happy you are happy with your hermeneutics and I am happy with mine. As the great AW Tozer one said they will always be fighting over the sovereignty of God and the volition of man, but ignore it, go into your prayer closet and meet with God. By the way he was a Calvinist.

@@JesusSaviorJudge Whether we are happy about our hermeneutics is irrelevant. The only hermeneutics that is any good is that which leads to the most accurate interpretation of a text. As to your claim that Tozer's was a Calvinist you are mistaken. Tozer wrote this about his view on the subject: “Here is my view: God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will [p.145] of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it.” (A W Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy, pp.144-145) .................................................... This is the very opposite of John Calvin who wrote: "…All are not created on equal terms, but some are PREORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE, others to ETERNAL DAMNATION; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death." (The Institutes of the Christian Religion, Chapter 21: Of The Eternal Election, By Which God Has Predestinated Some To Salvation, And Others To Destruction, Section 5) Even the chapter title denies that man has the ability to choose either life or death. .................................................... Tozer also wrote the following: Where there is no freedom of choice there can be neither sin nor righteousness, because it is of the nature of both that they be voluntary. However good an act may be, it is not good if it is imposed from without. The act of imposition destroys the moral content of the act and renders it null and void. (AW Tozer: chapter 7, That Incredible Christian) .................................................... In this, Tozer was in agreement with the early Christian Apologist, Justin Martyr (110-165 AD): "Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be....For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (First Apology, chapter 43)

that's not what Dr.Brown said...he stated emphatically that Christ's death was in behalf of the entire world..."Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"...in other words...whether it's prior to or after the CROSS..the basis of having faith was Jesus dying for the world...The Law and Prophets teached spiritual truths of the Messiah...the Redeemer to come... Having that said...some rejected the message of salvation, prior to or after the cross, and as a result are now in hell..these people Jesus no longer intercedes for because their faith are sealed...but for the living...believers or unbelievers..all have access to Christ for repentance and intercession...

Nayali Figueredo My good brother, I didn't say Dr. Brown said that. But "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" i assume you're quoting Rev. 13:8? Not sure but if... clearly implicated in the passage is both preordination and predestination.The people slain were those who's names were NOT written in the Lamb's book from/before the foundation of.... Says nothing of "for" the world. But what I did say was you get the "sense" that at the heart of Arminianism is the idea of "fairness". That in order for God to be "fair" salvation has to be generalized and not specific. I may be wrong but the sense I get. Aside from that I'm saying by very nature of God's sovereignty and man's inability to respond outside the enabling of the Spirit it has to be limited/specific and not general. Having said that we seem to forget that the bible is not to kind about the ability of the natural man. Man is in judgement because he is in Adam. "By nature children of wrath" Eph 2:3. I'm sure your familiar with those many passages...and keeping that in mind the fact that are in heaven and hell it has to be God sovereign choice of who's saved or not. Because...The world can't respond! God Bless you my brother!

+Always Rapha He said "textual variant actually; it's a very strong textual variant, but let's leave that aside."

Aaron Voluntaryist Oh i see. Gracias!

Unfortunately, it really is the dividing line as Luther wrote to Erasmus. All false belief systems believe in the so called "free will" of man, while true biblical Christianity affirms God's utter freedom and sovereignty.

No believers are assigned the role of praying for unbelievers. Paul said: 2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ALL men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.(1 Timothy 2:1) We can see in verse 4 that we are not just to pray for people in strategic positions but that these prayers are the means whereby God reaches out to ALL people with the message of salvation.

I am saying people receive faith for what they do implicitly know but are naturally resistant towards because of their inherent sinful inclination. OT Jews had special revelation but they did not have explicit revelation of Christ, His death and resurrection. However they had natural revelation along with every other person that has never heard the gospel. I think natural knowledge is an implicit recognition of ones need for Christ. This a priori natural knowledge includes the knowledge of God, His perfection and the fact that we are sinners in need of a savior. On top of this natural knowledge the Jews had more specific details and the law to obey and faith in this concealed revelation of Christ was CREDITED as sufficient for heaven. This is speculation but I think that if God gave someone faith in all the natural revelation they received then that would also be CREDITED as sufficient for heaven. However this might be an unlikely scenario because of our sinfulness.

***** Just making sure I understand. A Native American from way back before missionaries came to the US would be credited as righteous if they had faith in God for what they knew from nature with no knowledge of the Bible or Christ needed whatsoever? Is this what you're saying? This doesn't seem to be Dr. White's view from what I've seen.

***** From my understanding Dr White believes in Forensic Justification and justification through faith. I cannot speak any further on the details of what Dr white believes beyond these things. I believe salvation of the sinner is always through faith in the work of Christ. However as in the case of OT saints that faith was implicit and not explicit. OT saints ascended to their need for Christ (concealed) but they did not know or understand Christ would die and be resurrected. So what I am saying is faith in the work of Christ can either be explicit (as for those who hear the gospel) or implicit (as for OT saints). As for the Native American who has never heard the gospel I believe they are ALMOST certainly lost. The reason why I say almost is because I believe natural revelation contains ones need for Christ (concealed). So even though it could be formally possible, I think this possibility is unlikely because of the rebellion inherent in corrupt human nature. If anyone who receives natural revelation could ascend to their need for Christ (who is concealed but implicit in the revelation) I believe they will be credited as righteous. This may just be a hypothetical that is never actualised in history.

***** What makes Christianity unique? I think one of the key things is the fact that we are NOT saved through a righteousness of our own but through the righteousness of God credited to us. This belief affirms God's perfect standard that He alone can attain, He receives all the glory and it perfectly humbles men. I believe seeing this truth is the core of Christianity. I question professing Christians that reject this truth.

If you don't want to be saved, does Christ keep you saved?

schram21891 If you don't want to be saved, then that would be a witness that Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit has not regenerated your heart. God's grace is efficacious, the heart is brought into new life as Faith is born into the individual. People make all kinds of claims, even salvifically, but as seeds find their place among the rocks and the weeds, only some will ever find that which is good, rich soil.

Both

Your theory is double talk. He cannot take away sins and not take them away at the same time. If you roll up your sleeves, throw your opinion in the dumpster, and seek to know what the Scriptures SAY, it is overwhelmingly clear. Christ died for the elect. Only. If you are not regenerated, you will always come to the wrong conclusion.

classicjukebox So you have a problem with this quote from J.C. Ryle...

classicjukebox Not according to the king James Bible.

Dylan Bennett The King James Bible affirms texts used for both arguments. In Luke.22:19, and I Corinthians 11: 24 Jesus says; “This is My body, which is given for you; this do in remembrance of Me.”.Note; Judas was present at the table when Jesus said that. This means that Christ also died for Judas. Scriptures that support 'Unlimited Atonement' or 'Universal Redemption' Matthew 24: 14, John 1: 29, John 3: 14-18, Acts 17: 30, Romans 5: 18-19, 14: 15, 1 Corinthians 8: 11, 2 Corinthians 5: 14-15, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 Timothy 4: 10, 2 Timothy 2: 6, Titus 2: 1, Hebrews 2: 9, 4: 14, 1: 29, 2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2. Revelation 2: 21. Scriptures that support 'Limited Atonement' Matthew 1: 21, 7: 13, John 3: 18, 10: 1-5, 10: 11, 10: 14-15, 10: 26, 10: 27, 10: 28, 17: 9, Acts 20: 28, Romans 5: 10, Ephesians 5: 25. Colossians 1: 21-22. Revelation 5: 9, 14: 4. Choose for yourself whom you will believe. The Word of God or the opinions of men.

Gary; "Simon Peter, if it were Universal "Redemption" everyone would be going to heaven." Gary, can you not simply lay Owen aside for a moment and look at Scripture properly? That view you have so fundamentally embraced, is distinctly based upon a singular interpretation of the word atonement. Answer me this, if you will? Was the atonement that was made before Christ came, that is the Jewish offering of the blood of an animal made for all Israel, that is all Jewish people or not? Or was it made only for some, who were of or in that Nation?

It is so clear! It cannot be stated any clearer than that! Salvation is available to each and every human being who trusts in Christ because Christ died for the sins of the whole world!

WE OBEY JESUS God has granted all men.

@@evanu6579 it's available to all repententant people

Both are false teachers. The MAN Jesus died for all men. He is not God. He died under the law and was a sacrifice for our LEGAL sin debt under the law. God Jesus is a Spirit, who only forgives those who believe they cannot be justified by the law and believe that God raised the man Jesus from the debt and promises mercy and grace through faith. The man Jesus died for THIS world. God Jesus only lives those who are in himself. You don’t get INTO the second Adam (a quickening spirit) until you are born again a new creature in Christ. The children/church/Israel of the flesh ARE NOT the children of God. God doesn’t love the children of the flesh. You have to be in spiritual Jesus, who is God. The man Jesus is a made creature of the sinful flesh of man (Mary). Don’t confuse the spiritual offering of eternal life to God with the flesh and blood offering for sinners. Hebrews 9:22 (KJV) And 🩸👉🏽almost all things👈🏽 are by the law purged with blood🩸; and without shedding of blood is no remission. One Offering left: the spiritual offering by God of eternal life to them that believe! Ephesians 5:2 (KJV) And walk in love, as 👉🏽Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us 👉🏽an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour👈🏽. 1 Peter 2:5 (KJV) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up 👉🏽spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Hebrews 9:14 (KJV) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who 👉🏽through the eternal Spirit offered himself ⚫️without spot to God⚫️👈🏽, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Jude 1:23 (KJV) And others save with fear, pulling [them] 👉🏽out of the fire; hating even the garment ⚫️spotted by the flesh⚫️👈🏽. 1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that ⚫️flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God⚫️; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Zechariah 13:9 (KJV) And 🔥I will bring the third part through the , and will refine them🔥 as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God. Acts 7:59 (KJV) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and 👉🏽saying, Lord Jesus, 🔥receive my spirit.🔥 1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV) Now this I say, brethren, that 🩸flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God🩸; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Romans 8:8 (KJV) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Hebrews 12:9 (KJV) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the 🔥Father of spirits🔥, and live? Trinity destroyed along with carnal Zionism and works damnation. All men are called to believe the gospel. Those who are born again new spiritual children in God himself are called home to their kingdom in heaven, as sons of God. You MUST be born again. John 4:24 (KJV) God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. Romans 8:30 (KJV) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and 💎whom he ⚖️justified⚖️, them he also glorified💎. ARE WE JUSTIFIED IN THE FLESH? No 2 Corinthians 4:11 (KJV) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. Galatians 5:19 (KJV) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: 🔥God was manifest in the flesh, ⚖️justified in the Spirit⚖️🔥, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Romans 8:30 (KJV) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and🔥 ⚖️whom he justified, them he also glorified⚖️.🔥 Summary: God is a Spirit, Jesus, the Father of spirits, found in his bride (new Jerusalem)-Rev 21:9-10, Rev 22:17, Gal 4:26 KJV All children of the flesh… Romans 1:28-32 (KJV) 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. All spiritual children of God, sheep found in God and the true Israel of God, the holy church Romans 8:10 (KJV) And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. John 4:24 (KJV) God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

@15:11 James white

1 Peter 1:21 (KJV) Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

34:10 unborn