i was planning on buying a Basculante 2390 when it was around $3000. it was EASY to find them for $3000 before this massive 'bump' happened. For the past 1-2 years it has been impossible to find these again for $3000. They are constantly in the $7-10k range. While it is a cool watch, etc----it is NOT a watch that should be selling for more than $4k. It is quite 'niche', quite small, and a made for a pretty small group of people who would appreciate it. I am confident these will be back at the $4000 range soon. Best to be patient and wait it out----this is definitely not a watch worth $8k or more.
I've never really thought (extensively) about how these price graphs could be used and abused - at least in theory! Thanks for the food for thought, Tim.
I can affirm you that 90’s Cartier CPCP and models that use the frederique piguet cal. 21 based movement are are fairly selling and trading around 8-12k
I really understand your point, I think people should be able to discuss prices in watch forums. Dont understand why they are so stingy with that, we live in a democracy and their is something like free speech so, I reallly dont like when they want to control their forum members to much. And they always come back to their rules, that they invented, as if they are a constitution or the Grundgesetz. Keep up the great work.:)
Well done for having the courage & rectitude to bring this subject up! I agree with -what I consider to be- your implicit message: this smacks of brand manipulation! Thank you.
Well, the effects of a SwissWatchGang Video:) Besides that: My AD told me that the 2390 was a sleeper back when it was in production. After that it was just criminally undervalued for so long. One of the first Tanks made in steel, with a caliber that’s undoubtedly superior to the JLC Reverso basecaliber. Furthermore it was build in limited quantities as it just wasn’t for everyone. So the current prices are totally reasonable and will rise even further whenever Cartier decides to launch a reissue in their Privée lineup. Don’t forget its 90th anniversary next year;)
So that's one thing I was wondering, is the movement in a 2390 superior to the movement in a modern manual wind reverso or a reverso of similar vintage (late 90s, early 00s)? Honestly, I figured the JLC would have the better movement while the Cartier may have better finishing.
Thats why its great to have a watchguy thats also a journalist ;) The forums are in general a nightmare. Most of the forums, pretty much all of the big ones, are just fronts for shady business and are using their members soley as cashcows. It feels pretty much as beeing a member on a forum nowadays is somewhat similar to buying a Rolex. You have to be so greatful for beeing allowed to spend your money on watches. You have to thank them, you have to be greatful that they take your money.... and if you claim otherwise, you are thrown out. I seriously believe that much of the forums and second hand market has been hijacked by shady people acting on behalf of criminal gangs.
Totally agree, in these or many of the forums that don't allow sales, they are there to discuss the watches, not sales which can easily take over the forum. Some have a second forum that allows sales, you go there for information about a brand you like or have and inundated with sales or offers for your watch you have no intention to sell. If I was to buy pre owned, I'd use a legit grey marker or pre owned watch dealer, yes you pay a little more but there is protection and usually a one year warranty and if you don't care for the watch and don't break the seals you can return it for a full refund. Basically I don't want to go onto a Speedmaster or other brand or line and read through dozens of watches for sale. If I want to, would go to another speedmaster eta;l forum which does provide for this. I know my post may and does sound confusing, but many of us want to talk about the brand, whats coming our or different models with the ups and downs.
I'd been helping some friends locate a home in another city using Zillow here in the US. I began looking at the price history for those homes, what they last sold for, and I noticed the same spike in prices beginning about mid-2020. The home they ended up buying was negotiated down by $40,000, but they still paid over a half million dollars. However, the house had been on the market two or three years ago for $200,000 less than the current market price. This house was not the exception, but the rule. Every house I looked at for them (nearly 100), every one showed a price spike starting in mid-late 2020. So it appears that many desirable things, from homes to watches to cars, have spiked in prices. Hopefully a time will come when prices come back to Earth.
Interesting topic, I have paused the building of my collection over the past 4 or 5 years but over that time have been interested in the Basculante or a classique sized Reverso, pretty much ambivalent to which I obtain but would like one or the other. As someone that has watched the Basculante with the manual movement for a while I have seen it double or triple in value but I have never seen so many available for sale. In the past on eBay and Chrono24 I recall many times only seeing 2 or 3 available for sale, either ~5k or contact seller for pricing. Find it interesting that supply has seemingly increased while average listing price has increased as well.
The reason for the verboten price discussion on the forums is very close to what you said. If one wants to buy or sell a watch from someone else on the forum, he can not go through and back of some conversation thread to see if maybe he paid a lower(sometimes way lower) price for the same watch
Data can be easily biaised. If you want to see a plausible price, put in a reference for sale, and C24 will suggest a price, that is more accurate in my opinion. Forums are so 1990, I avoid them.
Man nennt so etwas schaffen von Vergleichsreferenzen. Wenn man einen selten Artikel hat, muss dafür gesorgt werden, dass auf verschiedensten Internetseiten unterschiedliche Preise sind. Der Kunde nimmt dann den günstigsten (auch wenn der noch überzogen bepreist ist). Gilt nicht nur für Uhren, seltene antike Bücher u.a. Im Übrigen muss Cartier die Uhren auch nicht vernichten. Es reicht, wenn sie sie aus dem Markt nehmen, um eine künstliche Verknappung zu erzeugen. Sie können dann einige über Jahre wieder in den Markt zurückgeben, wenn der Preis oben ist. Inflation ist ja auch noch da. Also warum nicht alte Bestände zurück kaufen. Ich könnte dazu noch ewig schreiben, aber ich denke es genügt;)
'I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about everything'. Henry Root 1982. When watches had their big revival about 6/7 years ago, every low-life, scammer, market manipulator, etc. dropped what they were doing and 'got into watches'. So here we are.
I agree. About 9 or 10 years ago I 'got into' vintage typewriters and bought a few. Then Tom Hanks got involved and the rest is, as they say, history. Suddenly prices skyrocketed and 'expert' restorers popped up out of nowhere. They would buy $20 machines at flea markets and jumble sales, dip them into buckets of kerosene, and then advertise them as 'professionally restored' and price them for resale at $395, plus $60 shipping.
I dont know much about Cartier. In the case of the 1016 Explorer you typically see them offered at about twenty times the original price. What you don't know is does anyone buy them at this ridiculous price?
It seems like this video is being made by someone who just isn't following the watch market. The entire market has jumped, and Cartier specifically has seen a huge surge in interest and auction results. The Basculante is among them, and you will not find them at a lower price point for a very, very long time. Cartier did cannibalize watches, but those were modern production, they aren't buying neo-vintage pieces and destroying them.
Interesting. I know of an art class held in a small town in the UK where the teacher recommended an out-of-print book. The price on ebay and Abebooks more than quadrupled within a few weeks. Class size: 25 people tops.
@@fullymechanical9055 It started off at under a fiver. Seriously, though, it's interesting as to how easy it could be to manipulate commodity prices - if you wanted to.
@@emm_arr I'd be interested to know the title, publisher, and whether it was hardback and a first edition. I collected modern first editions (late 19th century - today) for 35 years, but mainly fiction. If what you're saying is correct, there's usually a good reason why demand has gone through the roof. I'd be interested to know the details, as I still have a lot of contacts in the rare book trade.
@@michaelbedford8017 I said what the good reason was! This was years ago, and I don't know the details other than post-war 20th Century instructional art book that was out of print at the time.
@@IDKline "Yes, only first editions-in hardback, signed by the author-were acceptable for taking the class. 😑" No. The artist concerned was a retiree and not profiting from book sales. You didn't even need the book to do his course. This thread illustrates a lot that's wrong with the internet.
Welcome to the future...Not the shiny-suited, well-groomed, pristine-skinned, well-educated version from 2001: A Space Odyssey, but the Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged / George Orwell - Animal Farm / Franz Kafka - [pick a book] iteration of the future. The $35K Daytona and #letsgobrandon - I rest my case.
Can we discuss and dispute the prices of handmade leather goods here on your channel? I notice in discussion here that forum discussion and trading is offered as a better alternative to Chrono24. Fora certainly appear to be all sorts of grassroots, but I think you've questioned (and undermined) the idea that they are a less-manipulated market than Chrono24. Your skills and scepticism as a journalist are important, and it's great to see them demonstrated. I think it's important to recognise here that Cartier isn't an entity in itself: it's a Richemont brand, and if it's investing in pricing as a means of bolstering brand value, we need to look across the group for an understanding of how widespread a phenomenon this is across the market, and to what extent the large luxury goods groups shape the secondary market, the grey market and Internet discussion (and I'm looking sideways at Hodinkee here).
In all fairness, it's not comparing like with like. Tim's stuff which he makes at home is 100% handmade and handsewn; whereas factory made products are usually machined. They also have the advantage of 'economy of scale'. As for the watchstraps, these are bespoke items made in small batches. All in all, his prices are reasonable for what they are, and their probable longevity.
@@michaelbedford8017, I was teasing Tim, but your point is well taken. I make my own leather kit for re-enactment, and I have a very clear understanding of the investment of time and materials. I don’t begrudge @Caseback_Tim a pfennig.
@@nusbacher Hi Lynette, I must admit I wasn't quite sure whether you were 'pulling Tim's leg' or not'. As long as he's not using local kids on a 24hour 'three shift' system......
I think Michael Bedford is right. You can of course debate my prices, but that will be rather boring, because they are the result of a calculation which you find in every workshop. Material, hours, handling etc. A luxury brand simply can "invent" a price without connection to the manufacturing process.
Well, obviously, we need to appoint a Commissar of Watches. Production, supply, and distribution need to be regulated, and prices firmly set. I propose that simple (yet accurate) quartz watches be priced at 10€; more elaborate quartzes at 40€. Basic mechanical watches can be priced at 65€, and top-end mechanics at 100€. There shall be no precious metal used to fabricate watches, and no gems applied for bling. VAT will be applied at only one step in the process. Free shipping worldwide. Timepieces are a universal human right.
In art there is a scam when someone hoards some paintings from an unknown dead painter just to make a catalogue and put one of this paintings on a fine art auction. Then one accomplice bids high on this painting, they pay the action house fee and out of the blue now you have a "certified" very expensive painting from a unknown collection ready to reach the market.
That's what we can find on chrono24: Estimated worth is calculated according to various pricing information. This includes final sales prices as well as current listing prices on Chrono24. If this information is not enough, we also take the prices of past listings into consideration. In addition, we use the sample variance to calculate a range of probable value for your watch. Current and past listings are part of their estimations. That's probably why their pricing are mostly overrated.
