This channel is pure edutainment - we get watch "porn", fashion insights and we learn new stuff - all without any commercialism. Tim, please keep it this way (but please include pocket watches from time to time!). Thank you.
Well, I would like a Swiss rug. They are good in watches and many other products, why should they make bad rugs, may be a swiss rug is better than an iranian rug, especially nowadays.
The shenanigans around the Japanese verses Swiss watch accuracy and quality in the seventies and eighties, when the Swiss basically flounced of in the huff because Seiko won ,completely destroyed the mystique of "Made in Switzerland"
My collection of Russian, Chinese, and cheap Japanese watches speaks clearly: I completely agree with you, "Made in Someplace" has no *absolute* meaning any longer. "Made in China at European standards" would be as good as "Made in Germany" for me - and indeed, the 1963 chronograph is there to show that. The Swiss are capitalizing on their past fame, even if their watches are indeed very good. But is an Omega or a Rolex (for example) intrinsically better than a Grand Seiko or an Orient Star just because it is "Swiss made" instead of "Made in Japan"? I don't think so. Omega and Rolex are good because they are good, and if they were made at the same quality level in any other place, they would still be the same good watches. Still, when it comes to sell, marketing is everything. Oh well, as long as Vostok and Seiko and Orient and AliExpress are in business, I have no shortage of watches to have fun with!
@Joe Costner Top Chinese brand watches aren't actually bad. My collection includes watches made in Switzerland, Germany, French, Japan, Russia and China. In some watches you could see the difference in finishing with the Swiss generally having the upper hand. But you would be surprised at some of the qualities of the watches made in other countries. I think the key point is get your watch from a reliable brand. There are a ton of garbage Chinese watch but there are also good Chinese watches like the "real seagull 1963" or a genuine Seagull Tourbillion. Japanese watches can also be good like the Grand Seiko Snow Flake (which arguably rivals the top Swiss watches in terms of finishing and quality). I think the point of this video is that most "Swiss Made" watches already have their cases/crystals/bracelets or even dials made in China but still falls into the 60% rule so they get to place the "Swiss Made" tag at their dial. That means the "Swiss Made" tag is already more of a marketing ploy more than a tag of excellence. At the end of the day I agree that you buy the watch that makes you happy. And make sure to buy from a reputable brand and be open to other brands as they might surprise you.
In amy case I think most can agree that the term "Swiss Made" has been run to the ground post quartz crisis. Irrespective of actual swiss quality or not, the Swatch group acquisition of a big number of swiss brands has turned them into corporate zombies who instead of competing against one another with innovative technologies they sit comfortably at whatever price point Swatch tells them to sit on. You will never see Longines competing with Rolex since that spot is reserved for Omega. Tissot will always be the entry level "swiss" made and almost completely manufactured in China. It's sad really
A close friend of mine is a watchmaker instructor from the Swatch group and he told me that e.g. my Tissot Ballade is 100% Swiss Made - all the components. Can you back up your claim?
@@ddogiddogi That is a cynical, puely capitalist view. Maybe maximizing profits is not the sole intent of Swiss watchmakers. E.g. the Swatch Group came into being exactly to keep the Swiss industry and its workers alive. Swiss watchmaking has always had a socially oriented background with very strong labor unions. Also, they are not known to pay minimum wages to workers, but pay quite well. From a purely maximizing profits perspective - going for a 40% cheap foreign labor fraction will undermine the prestige that comes with Swiss watches, so I don't know if this would actually make sense.
The 60% rule is for the MOVEMENT. All you need is an address in Switzerland and an off-the-shelve ETA or Sellita movement (bonus: customise the rotor and call it “in-house”) and voila. Now you get a Chinese factory to manufacture everything else, and you put the caseback on in Switzerland. “Swiss Made” is now on the dial.
In the sub-$1000 range, the only assurance “Swiss Made” gives is that it has a good movement, and the final QC check is done in Switzerland. It’s still mostly Asian-made. Any other brand with a Swiss/good movement and good QC is no less. And even above $1000 it’s a mystery to what extent it’s “Swiss Made”. Even Rolex isn’t clear, saying all the “core components” are made in Switzerland. What does that mean? Nobody knows.
The Swiss watch industry is a shady, disgusting, unscrupulous world. I'll take a Swiss movement in a (microbrand) watch but I don't go gaga over Swiss made, and won't pay more for it. Because, like you said, it's a parts kit of internationally produced pieces that's assembled in Switzerland.
Phafanapolis ‘Swiss Made’ does provide a certain level of quality, but it usually comes with a certain price tag too. A Glycine Combat Sub is a great deal for the discounted price of ~$350. But I’m not fooled by its ‘Swiss Made’: it’s a Chinese-Made watch that has a Swiss movement and Swiss QC. Still a good deal. The shadiness is when they make people believe they are truly made in Switzerland, and ask a fat premium. And as said in the video, the whole ‘service-Mafia’ thing, which is a scam. I wouldn’t mind spending a couple thousand on a Swiss watch if it meant unparalleled build-quality and durability. But the truth is you spend €5000 on a Rolex and they want you to service it every 5 years for €800. People say Rolex is a workhorse-how is any watch movement a workhorse when it costs €800/5 years to maintain?
Servicing is a scam on a whole other level! A watch can't both be a tough wOrKhOrSe that'll chug along for generations but also be so delicate that it needs to be serviced every five years or else it'll disintegrate. It's Swiss marketing double-think that watch idiot savants have accepted without thinking and are asking for seconds of.
As an owner of 2 bottom tier *'Swiss'* watches (a Certina DS Podium & a Glycine Airman Purist) I whole heartedly agree. The basic ETA mov'ts are a joy to interact with and the QC is very good, however I can clearly see where the $ has been saved. I own far cheaper watches with Japanese workhorse mov'ts that have far superior case finishing and dial hardware. The fact that the little micro-brand Spinnaker is actually a large conglomerate with their own factories in China says much about marketing and brand perception.
Completely agree. 60+ years ago if you wanted a great watch it had to be Swiss made. A suit had to be British. Wine, from France etc. Those days are gone. You can still get amazing goods from these places but they no longer hold the monopoly they once had.
Yes, everything from research, development /design, prototyping (which can run into multiple rounds), testing, actual making of the parts (dials, hands, cases, movements etc), quality control checks, final cleaning and handling.... All of these can be considered factors of value in the production life cycle. Perhaps even project management. With Swiss labour costs as high as they are you can easily meet or exceed your requirements for 60% value before you have even completed the parts. Design it in Switzerland, project manage it in Switzerland, make the parts in the orient, assemble in Switzerland and perform extensive QC, cleaning and testing in Switzerland.... Baaam, here's your certification
Thank you for this honest and straight forward discussion Tim as always. No doubt of the history and expertise from the manufacturers in Switzerland and Germany. I love my Swiss and German watches. I think it is also good there is now other good competition and less costly alternatives as well.
A timely upload for me Tim. I'm in the process of collecting some neo-vintange versions of iconic watches from the Vietnam war. I have my Glycine Airman Purist so next is either a Hamilton Khaki Field from the Swiss *or* a Seiko 6105 Willard copy from the Chinese (San Martin). My not unsubstantial research informs me that the build Quality of the Chinese Willard (sapphire, ceramic, 200m WR & NH35) will be just as good as the Hamilton (sapphire & modified ETA) and half the price. Apples and Oranges maybe?...or perhaps the Hamilton is more Chinese than I realise? A great topic. Again. Thank-you Tim.
I think you are 100% correct in your analysis of "made in". Quality should be quality and can sometimes be recognised without a country bias. HOWEVER, I think that "made in" is not always just a mark of quality to a consumer - but it's also an indication of pedigree and heritage. If you are spending a lot of money on a product, you may want to feel like it has a hand-made/personal touch or is as high tech as you can afford - but that it's FROM a place which has a rich history is making and producing such things. Sometimes you want to feel as if you are purchasing a bit of history. Perhaps one may feel that the better product is made from a country that simply has been known for making such things for a very long time. Watches from the Swiss, tech from Japan, rugs from Turkey, cars from Germany, etc.
I posted this on my page a while ago while discussing German watches. Another German brand that managed to catch my attention is Schaumburg watch. Small German watch manufacturer that makes very good looking and high-quality timepieces. prices starting from 1000/1500Euro wich for the finish of the movements is unbeatable. I wonder how the Swiss are going to keep up competition in originality, quality-price ratio. The times' people didn't know any better and just bought a Swiss watch because it was Swiss are over. the public is more educated and is aware of what they are buying. And in my opinion A. Lange & Söhne (German Brand) is the absolute best timepiece you can get no Swiss brand comes even close to the quality and engineering maybe FP Journe. I would pick A Lange watch over a Patek any day!
Thank you for the Excellent explanation that actually makes sense. Your break down in layman’s terms is refreshing. Please keep posting more information!
Thanks for the vid Tim and all the reading research . The maths certainly illustrated the point well! I really enjoy your format. You are a credit to the watch fraternity because clearly you give your time thinking about the watch industry, and the direction in which it is progressing. You are stimulating conversation in a positive way and you are capable of modifying your opinions. Listening to you is like being down the pub and chatting across the table. Shall I get another round in? Cheers!
'Made in Japan' means impeccable quality control and integrated manufacture; 'Made in Germany' means impeccable quality control and artisanal 3rd party sub contraction. 'Made in Switzerland' could mean anything. How sad (for the Swiss). Globalised production is a fact of modern life, but tends to result in portfolio'd brands who look only at the bottom line, who have no culture of care for product or staff. It results in the generic and middle-of-the-road as large companies produce for numerous brands, with similar production techniques. The brands in turn, hedge their risk and produce safe, cookie-cutter design.
Many studies found that the importance of the country where the product was made depends on the product category of course. For instance, Iranian rugs are very much sought for. Love this channel.
Hi Tim! Love your videos and this one is no exception! I agree with you on the issue that "swiss made" in no longer what it used to be and has been watered down quite a lot. I also agree that the main aspect you should look for in a watch is quality, not necessarily where it says it was build. However, I tend to leave this aspect to the professionals and what I mean by this is that - even if a watch is 60% made in china, but it says "swiss made"on the dial, that means that someone from Switzerland has made sure that the factory in China has the right tools and that the end product is of the desired quality. Since I would never be able to do this on my own, I am ready to accept that the Swiss are outsourcing part of the build while not compromising too much on quality. What do you think?
AUDI, BMW and Mercedes are apparently made in Germany but for the USA they are assembled in Mexico or South Carolina or Alabama and the build quality is not there at all. On recent car shopping mission in Miami I was very disappointed. Volvo, which is Chinese owned now but assembled in Gothenburg (Sweden), Ghent (Belgium) is far higher quality.
I generally agree with your opinion, I think sometimes it is a bit funny, when you have brands like Junghans, who call themself "the German watch", but everybody knows that they have swiss Sellitas or Eta movements in almost all of their watches.:)
Absolutely a bit funny. Especially if one takes in consideration that all those brands are in close range with Glashütte and the movement production there.
On the Made in Germany issue, and 19th Century. When I was very young we had antique sewing machines in our house. Some were Jones (British) and others were Frister and Rossman (German). The Fristers were perfect. They worked 100% perfectly. The Jones machines were large paperweights. German made is, always has been, and likely always will be, amongst the very best.
Does this apply to German cars too? I've had several late model German cars that have gone kaput because of inferior components or poor design decisions.
If you've owned a Mercedes or BMW, then you will begin to question that 100 rating for "Made in Germany." Germans definitely make fantastic products but at least with cars reliability is no longer something I attribute to them.
I've owned a Volkswagen with DSG and TSI. What a turd that was. And their business practices with their diesel engines did not do any favours to them either.
The lifetime of a car is limited to 8 years. All big automotive players are listed companies on the stock market. First prio is to earn money and satisfy the shareholders. Developing and producing qualitative top cars are not a big challenge, it doesn’t fit to the strategy 😉PS: 6 years of life experience at the leading automotive supplier
I couldn't agree more. My background is in Industrial Design, and I've been saying this for years. It also applies to most product groups. Exclusions being bleeding edge technology. I really enjoy your show. Thank you sir.
I think you are completely right. I just read a 2014 articles in the NY Times about watches history and the role Switzerland have played in it. At the end of the article, it was written that "the consolidation that is rampant in the watch business [is] making it difficult for independent makers to succeed". Yet, in 2020 a lot of us are spending more and more time looking at micro-brands line-ups. I like the transparency of some of those said micro-brands. They sometimes openly disclose where they source their components and label their watches "assembled in France" or USA. When you think that sometimes you can't retrieve the basic specs of a watch from a major brand. Who knows which alloy they use in your bronze watch... But Baltic tells you.
I own a few Swiss watches. But the best I find are the Grand Seikos. The engineering, the accuracy are the best I've ever seen. Swiss movements are fine but I find they can be fussy, and often need adjusting. On a side note, enjoy your channel.
Fabulous video Tim. Although I have heard it read most of the arguments before, you tie them together so elegantly, and I nearly choked over the Service Mafia😁
Exactly, try being a brand owner and convincing people that the manufacturers who make your components are in fact the same as make parts for Swiss majors who know how to expertly navigate the Swiss Made regulations
Great video, Tim. Love your channel! I just watched an episode of the "Time Teller", yesterday on RU-vid and the host, Jory, was doing a rant on Tag Heuer watches. He reference a watch (I believe it was a Carrera, that had a heavily modified Seiko automatic movement, that they were call in-house made! Honestly, I don't care where a watch is made anymore. I no longer go by name brand, but reputation of quality and honesty. I've owned cheap Chinese, Parnis watches that have run just as good or better than some swiss watches I've owned. Probably because most of the parts in them are the same!
I could have hit that like button on THIS video 100 times or more.....reliably made fun watches....that's the good stuff here..... Excellent content...classy delivery.....
Workforce in China is much cheaper, if the QC is good or the same as in Switzerland I dont see why not to produce in China. Not fair is however suggestion that watch is swiss, when most job was done in China.
With all the watches I have,Swiss,Russian,German and a lot of Chinese I have not had any serious time keeping problems and quality has been good too.So well Done Tim for that myth busting video.....................................
I think it depends on the product and just as in the 19th century for a lot of people it is about politics and wanting to avoid goods made in certain countries. Also, watches are a status symbol and the "made in" trademark like with other luxury goods show a higher status e.g. Cuban cigars, Italian clothing etc. People have this idea that it shows you are a more discerning/rich person.
I think for some products like chocolate, or watches, where I think the Swiss Made makes a difference. I think now brands are making use of the law to get the Swiss Made or Made in Germany, even though the actual manufacturing was not done there. I would rather get a Chinese watch from an honest watchmaker than a "swiss" watch from a dishonest watch company.
At the same time I can give an example of being an engineer on a vessel with a Japanese made German designed main engine i.e. a Kawasaki-M.A.N. the engines where medium speed around 800 rev/min and constantly had to be watched for valves burning out a maximum continuous rating. This was a pain in the arse as the engine valves need to be changed immediately other wise the head of the valve might break off (and they did, often) and cause a great deal of damage to the unit involved. Towards the back end of it's life just before it was sold the buying of spares was put in the hands of the engineers. we then found out that the specifications of the original German made valves and those of "Eastern manufacture" where as different as chalk and cheese. Also more costly, so, with the accountants out of the way the original and better valves where sourced from Germany. Result, in the last years of service, no valves where changed due to failure. I.E., keeping it as originally designed saves on service costs and downtime.
ur right about its no longer so important, but a factor u cant brush aside is the sentimental/status/joy/history a watch labeled as swiss made brings. Its the same reason we love mechanical watches, even though they are technologically obsolete. P.S I love your channel!! :)
I agree with you premise whole heartedly. I thing swiss made is a data point for consideration, but by no means a complete indicator if quality. It is wat too simple. I own quite a few watches from everywhere and not even brand is a measure anymore. In addition you factor in movement design, cost vs value and the differences of vintage and there are so many permutations, swiss made is just not a good enough bellwether to generalize. Thx for the video!
As usual, a very thought provoking video. Thank you. As a child in the 70's I remember, "Made in Japan," indicated cheap, poor quality goods. Now, it's a badge of high quality in design, reliability and innovation. Will China manage the same trick performed by Germany and Japan?
Great content Tim. Made in Germany does not mean junk now. Germany makes excellent products in many areas. I have a couple of Swiss Made watches and the quality is very good, but the same time you can get an excellent watch from Eddie at Timefactors and those watches are made in Hong Kong and having recently reviewed several watches from Eddie I believe you can attest to their quality.thanks again Tim and keep up the good work. Brian.
A young Swiss lady joined my team at work for several months. When she left, we presented her with lots of British chocolate because the chocolate in Switzerland is wretched.
Regarding watch service. „Back in the day“, watches were brought to the watchmaker when broken. And most of the time, it was just cleaning and lubricating, done 😂 And regarding the „Swiss Made“. Swiss was only so popular in watchmaking because it was cheaper to produce in Switzerland than in Germany, France or the UK. Those were the original high end watch countries. But due to wars, etc, we all know, they lost it to the Swiss 😅
Yeah, I came across this recently. The Swiss watchmakers made better watches , so instant stamp of approval. Infact, British tourism kick started wealth creation in Switzerland. When the Brits started traveling there they were net with kids begging. Next year when Swiss travellers come to the U.K. they'll be met by kids begging.Plus ça change..
Another great video! I agree with you 100% and this can be more prominent in lower priced Swiss Made watches (which I own a couple of). I still like those watch but at the end of the day, don't buy a watch just because it has "Swiss Made" on the dial. Buy it because you like it. And also, you are right, don't be afraid to try other brands from other countries, you might be pleasantly surprised. Also service mafia does exist, I experienced it first hand in an official Rolex service center.
I must say that you have stated precisely and quite rationally the opinion I have come to have concerning where to find extraordinarily well made and we'll designed watches at a reasonable price. Case in point: I just paid $500 USD for a Boderry Great Wall, delivered to me in the United States. I was gobsmacked by the design, the workmanship of the case and bracelet, the movement (which is apparently top-of-the-line Seagull), and the quality control. The quality control is the best I have seen in years under $1000, with the only equal being GPW. I have no idea why the only watches under 1000 USD that I have encountered in the last couple of years with adequate quality contro would be GPW and Boderry Great Wall, but there you have it. Quality Control is a lost art I suspect. In any case, I wish you would take a look at the Boderry Great Wall. The workmanship is exquisite, and the Seagull movement is a joy to behold--innovative, high beat rate, apparently quite rugged, and accurate on the time grapher. --TTFN, your pal, BILL
18000bph watches will last longer without service. The old standard 21,000bph was standard Now 28, 000 bph is becoming normal. And higher. 36,000 bph! Now that's cruelty to watches.
I don’t get it either. People will pay much more for a movement that won’t last as long without a service, because it ticks a little smoother and is maybe a fraction more accurate. Not to mention a lower bph = longer power reserve.
@@nintendokings In my experience, higher beat rate doesn't equal higher accuracy. I have a watch with a Selitta 200 that runs almost two minutes off each week and a watch with a Seiko NH35 that runs about 15 seconds off the mark in the same time.
Excellent presentation. It's too easy for these labels to mislead a beginner into paying more for equivalent workmanship and performance. On the positive side, someone willing to do the research (such as watching this video 😉) will be able to reap the benefits of both for less from brands with less label fame. As is often the case, education serves one well. Thank you for being a contributor to mine.
Good question. There are certainly some specification and I highly doubt that the percentage of spent funds is higher than in Switzerland. But I don't know the exact law in this case.
Good vid, as ever, Tim. Here's thought for you ... I spent a while the other evening looking into German clocks - for mantels, shelves and maybe tables - a clock but not a wall clock. I was trying to find a clock with a flieger A dial face. Could I find one? Not really. Was I too tired? Don't watch manufacturers make clocks? I have no idea. You seem like the sort of chap who appreciates a good clock.
@@CasebackWatches That's interesting. Mmm. Thank you! I'll mention this here because you and your readers might be interested, but it is still possible to get relatively reasonably priced art deco clocks with German mechanisms. I have one. My grandparents had one too. They have a really nice tick-tock sound and some have a bar chime - like this: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-NzWzp3Sxr2wh.htmlttps://ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-NzWzp3Sxr2w.html These clocks deserve love.
i bought a HKED watch , chronograph model 1963 that has a ST 1901 movement (Sea-Gull) I find it to be of good quality and very precise watch but everybody tells me that it will not work for very long, there is no reason for the watch to break down if you take care of him but this is the mentality of people towards Chinese products.
Well done Tim, I have two Mondaine Stop 2 go watches, I love them so much I went on a seven day 30 train journey holiday in Switzerland, but I wouldn't buy a Swiss rug.
I just bought an H Moser Venturer Concept Small Seconds Arctic Blue - not because it's 100% Swiss (apart from the kudu strap), but because it's 1,000% beautiful 😍 My next watch will be coming from Glashutte though 😉
Anouther wrinkle in this discussion is the cost of service is high even at your local watchmaker, if you have one. I was considering buying a vintage Seiko chronograph untill i found out the service would be $350. I look forward to the day when a coplete movement could be swapped out.
People want "Swiss made" because it paints a picture in their minds, of a little old watchmaker, in a little small old fashioned workshop, wearing a monocle, delicately hand making their watch as the snow outside falls with the beautiful Alps in the background........gotta admit it's a better fantasy than the truth. Mass made, imported parts, robot assembly in huge factories is pretty much the norm for most watches no matter where they are made
Not "and so on..." Number six is Canada! *All kidding aside- that was cool to see - if only we made something other than maple syrup and apologies, eh?
To a degree I think pride has more to do with it than technology When you work hard building a reputation you generally want to protect it and probably have better quality control standards. Not always the case with the rise of technology tho
Agreed, the "Swiss made" label counts for very little anymore. Brand names and their reputation for quality trump region of manufacture IMHO...in fact I'd rather have "made in England" on the dial of my Chris Ward watches even if they're made from imported parts from all over the globe. "Swiss made" should stick to the tourist market for goods like chocolate and cuckoo clocks. Quality is quality regardless of where something is made. I work in the Vaping (electronic cigarette) industry and the vast majority of the hardware & innovation is Chinese (invented by Hon Lik, a Chinese Dr) & is exceptional quality for the price. Good video as always, thanks Tim 👍🏻 Ps can we have more of your guitar playing please?
For smaller badges that calculation can be applied. Smaller and maybe medium watch companies might spent a third of the production fees on development and engineering. For big manufacturers such as omega or rolex with very high produced pieces, the percentage of R&D is for sure lower. Meaning they or nor allowed to outsource that much. Additional there will be a high degree of automation in those production lines with higher production runs (machining not assembling). Wages are not then not the most crucial factor. We are not there yet, but due to automation european factories will be able to compete with asian ones.
@@soufiverite9355 the opposite is the case. due to automation european industries can compete with asion ones (in the near future). in asia labour is cheap, the need for automation not that big. In europe that completly diffrent. Automation will eventualy bring manufacturing back to middle europe. but we have to consider that for assembling of watch movements robots are not suitable. At least at the moment. By the way, i'm a mechanical engineer working with controll systems for automation ;)
I live in the mountains between Lake Como and Lake Lugano, five kilometers from the Swiss border. I am often in Lugano and while a nice place, the cost of living and consuming there is a difficult proposition. Whether it's a Swiss brand watch or a macchiato, the value to the consumer just isn't there. So. stop JO to Swiss watches and take your energy and attention elsewhere. Microbrands, with their sensible sizing and transparent sourcing information will continue to push the Swiss brands to up their game.
Remember that Tim's go to guitar has a much wider neck which will make the Strat more difficult to play.I know 'cause I fell into that trap when I started using wider necks.Now I'm finding it hard to play my best instrument with a more narrow neck,ARRRRRGH!
I like these 'food for thought' pieces. Always glad to see one. You're talking perfect sense. Then there's the 'X' factor which is based on 'Perception' and being human we run on a whole load of that. I guess the whole point of PR and Advertising is to alter those perceptions, even if their new ones are less objectively accurate. Sigh! Btw. Which country produced that appalling closing music!
I've been looking at Yema watches they say Designed Developed and assembled in France nowhere does it say manufactured , I've got a sneaky fealing that the watches are Manufactured in China or Hong Kong and assembled in France ,I think this is deceptive marketing leading one the think these watches are made in France , Baltic which is a French brand is very open about where there parts are sourced ,let me know what you think , Thank You
I wish the rest of the world took the same standard as Made in USA. I think very few watches would be able to says Swiss Made if it had the same standard. It makes it difficult for me to buy from a microbrand because I have no idea where the thing is really made, and perhaps my dollars are helping support an economy I do not wish to support. ZRC was at least willing to give a full breakdown of their components, but no other brand has.