I find it fascinating just how much effort it takes to stay primitive in the modern world. And the one true take away I get from all of the data you've been sharing is this. Maintain your kit. Modern gear excels at being abusable, and that is the major difference. Thanks for sharing
Just about one of the best videos I have seen for this subject. Easy to understand and very informative.You Are Awesome folk and I sure hope you keep on keeping on with this great content!
This is a great video. I want to thank you for putting out such quality information. And dispelling some of the misconceptions about primitive archery.
I am a huge bow hunter [compound]. I have shot deer from 10 feet away to 90yrds!I need to get to that next level of accomplishment and ur channel has forced me to do so! I'm soaking in all sorts of info and hopefully in the next year or so I will make videos showing my progression and finally get a deer with everything I made myself [bow arrow broadhead everything]. You rock keep up the great videos!
I know it's kinda a sacrlidge but I just don't have access to sinew, bear or buffalo fat and even seldom fire. But up here in the great basin we don't have anything near the humidity as down south. I do use what natural material I can gather though. Luckily obcidian juniper and chokecherry doesn't fly away. Boiled linseed oil is my favorite Finnish.
Nice video Ryan ...... Not sure why some people feel you are attacking Fire Hardened Bows ? The results are not shocking to me at all lol . Fire hardened is just another tool of bow making to me that has some added benefits....... but just as the test shows (which is no shocker ) , no matter what wood bow you build or method, it is pretty much useless after very long without a sealer . Even laminated wood core bows need sealer . Its really a no brainer what moister can and will do to a bow without sealer , fire hardened or not . The testing i feel is pretty dang accurate, and the numbers are interesting to see how long it takes and also how your sealer protects your wood ..... which is crucial to taking care of your bows . Living in Alaska, i personally only use 8-10 coats of tru-oil , but thats not what this video is over . I personally thought it was spot on !!
thanks very much. I dont really get it either. I am just about unbiased data to give the best data possible. some folks handle it well, others dont. I always invite people to contribute data to my book, but they almost always say, "nah..."... I dont get it either. folks are weird at times
Sensible science. Beginner bow builder from UK here. I work mainly with hazel (cheap and plenty), average humidity inside the house is 65% @ 20C (except summer season). Bows made from seasoned staves (EMC over 12%) will yield, in average, 125 - 145 fps, yet, if same staves further dried with heat to 8-10% MC and kept dry throughout bow build, with same design, will yield +20 fps. Leave that bow sitting home for some time (no finish and nock off) it will lose 20 fps and even change tiller. Personal observation.
This kind of thing is what I'm looking for. I am a beginner selfbower and primitive enthusiast. 6 years in ,with many bowcrafts accomplished. I am early retired ,but still need supplemental income. I have my own supply of land for materials. Elm is my best source of good bow building , if you need any , I have an abundance. I also have many other species still standing. I enjoy all that you have done over the years, thanks. End of summer, so I'm getting in gear , for the first time, to harvest more staves than usual, mostly elm, but I have almost everything. But my osage is not good quality. All else is. The only primitive bow goal I haven't reached is also using a sinew string. Sorry ,but that's next.
I have a friend that smokes his blackthorn sticks walking sticks covered in lard for a year in his chimney, they seem absolutely waterproof, I'm wondering if smoking rather than just fire drying or hardening a bow wood work, 24 hours of smoking might be worth a try
Love your videos Ryan. You are a great teacher!! I was wondering if weighing the bows with a precise scale, thru the different stages would have given any useful data. I don't really like using moisture meters, but it would be interesting to know how much they gain, percentage wise, while really humid. Keep up all your great work!! Thanks!!
I considered doing a moisture percentage in relation to speed or weight loss as well. I may do that for a future test, however the terminal performance is the most important thing to me. the moisture percentage isn't super important to me as it isn't somthing that can be directly used to calculate performance like speed, mass, KE etc. Thanks very much for following along
After researching other vendors I’ve notice your markups on products is pretty high. Can you tell me what differs you from these other primitive item makers? I really enjoy your channel and want some of your products but your pricing is what refrains me from making any purchases. I understand it’s an art and you have the fame of RU-vid behind you. I’m not a cheap person I’ll pay more for quality but not because of popularity. This is not meant to offend. I genuinely love the channel.
no problem at all. My products are expensive because quite honestly we are the best and I have worked very hard to get to this point. I typically have more orders than we can really handle and I employ several people throughout the country to help meet demand. the price reflects both the quality, consistency, and consumer demand
Interesting video. I've seen, shot, and filmed a number of Keith's Fire hardened bows and there's no doubt of their high speed and impressive performance. With that I won't ever make another raw hickory bow...from now on they'll all be fire hardened. The numbers you're getting as far as the moisture absorption are definitely interesting. From what I know and from Keith's experiments with the fire hardened hickory bows, they can absorb moisture, but from his moisture meter readings they absorb humidity more slowly and repel it more quickly. If I remember correctly Keith did shoot a fire hardened bow when it was saturated with moisture and it did lose some of its reflex, but I don't know the FPS or how fast it shot during its saturated state. However, he was able to dry it and its speed increased once it dried out. I would really like to know the moisture meter readings, since you are talking about finishes and if you don't have any moisture meter readings from a calibrated machine, there's a lot of missing information that could really help with the results and provide a lot more info since I think that's an important part of the puzzle... just a suggestion. I read some of the comments and there seem to be a lot of discrepancies between the draw weights of the bows. On your board it says Keith's fire hardened bow was 64 lbs at 23", but then Keith is saying it's 43 lbs at 23. That's a big difference. But it wasn't designed for a 23 inch draw....it was supposed to be drawn to 26 inches. Keith usually shoots around 50-55 lbs for hunting and I only know of one bow Keith has made that pulled 60 lbs or so and it out shot a fiberglass longbow of the same draw weight. Can you clarify what weight the bow drew at 23"?
Biily, Look behind his right arm under the ff column and you will also see where he also wrote 'k shannon fire harden 50 at 26'. That is the same bow and is correct...You know my bows and most well designed bows gain and loose about 2 lbs. per inch.... he also plainly says 4 different times that shot mine and his at 23''
And another thing ...you and I both know that it impossible for his bow.. with that inefficient design.. with heavy sinew string.. a 23'' draw... and close to 10 grains per lb.... shoot and arrow around 160. With modern string and 28 '' draw your talking around 190fps.. with that heavy mass design.
Billy, yes I can and thanks for weighing in.. yes there is confusion and I am addressing that in the next video. I agree with just about everything you are saying. The moisture percentage to me doesn't mean much as moisture is not a variable to directly measure performance. that is why I strictly use fps.. the performance is the important part to me. the bow in question is the bow I made from the blank keith sent me.. that is why is reads, "K. Shannon blank" and R Gill under it. the one above it is his personal hunting bow. I address all that in the next video
if you want to stain your bow before hand you can use black walnut husks. i used that on my walking stick i made and it turned a wonderful dark brown, then i just added rendered pork fat from pork chops i cut off mixed with bee wax from the flooring section. it took about 20 pork chops to get enough fat for it but just freeze the fat and render it when you have enough.
yup for sure. I have used walnut hulls before as well. walnut doesn't grow down here this far otherwised i would have definitely used them when in season.
I allways enjoy your videos; but the last ones are really specially interesting. Tkank you for them. After watching this one, I thought If having a chronograph I wonder to shoot a bow before and after aplying the boiled linseed oil I always use. To see if the oil soaking inside the wood make it loose any performance... or maybe you have an idea about that.
HuntPrimitive (Ryan), I have been curious to learn if you have finishes that you apply to sinew-backed bows. How do you navigate the different materials (wood and sinew) and trying to weatherproof you bow? Thank you.
Ryan, when you contacted me and asked if I would contribute to your research, I said I would be glad to if you would provide straightforward honest information. I didn’t start down this road yesterday and, at this point in time, probably know as much or more than anyone on the planet about how fire hardening effects bow performance. As an avid student of bow performance, both traditional and primitive, for longer than you have been alive, I think I am well qualified to speak on the subject. As you well know, the speed of an arrow is determined by many factors such as bow design, which determines mass and mass placement, unstrung profile, string weight, draw length, tillering, which determines the draw force curve, hysteresis, moisture level and a few other things. When you draw a bow back, there is only so much energy there and that energy goes into all these different things. Once a person truly understands these principles, they quickly realize that this is nothing more than numbers and physics. A person who is very well learned in the subject can look at the design of a bow, the unstrung profile, calculate the moisture, draw length, arrow weight, and tell you very accurately what the performance of that bow will be. There are no magical bows, it is all numbers and physics. Thus, this brings me to your numbers. Are you not aware that a well-made raw hickory bow properly designed with good mass placement, sufficiently dried with an inch of set, a modern string and a 28” draw will shoot an arrow (10 grains per pound) between 155 and 165 fps at best? The only way to improve on that a little is to dry the bow down to around 6% moisture and or reduce mass. So, I want to congratulate you on the bow you made because you have managed to hit approximately 160 feet with a very low energy high mass design, a very heavy sinew bow string and at a 23” draw! When I calculate your bow, starting with your numbers, with a modern string and a 28” draw, I am coming up with speeds that the very best speed bowyers in the world with the very best speed bow designs in the world struggle to get at. Congratulations, you might want to save that one because, by your numbers, it appears you have a potential world class flight bow on your hands. Ryan, when I look at all the numbers you have, I don’t think you realize how many discrepancies there are and there are quite a few bowyers who know this stuff. So, while you may be able to fool a lot of people, you are going to lose credibility with the ones who know better and as you can already see in your comment section, with everyone else who successfully makes a fire hardened bow, if you continue with this. But this is not my biggest concern. This gets back to telling the truth. What I told you about my bow was that this was one of my personal bows that had been shot a heck of a lot and hunted with quite a bit. I told you it was 50 pounds at 26 inches which is my draw length. I also told you that my bows gain and lose slightly over 2 pounds per inch and said it should pull 54 pounds at 28 inches but I had never pulled it to that and asked you not to either. You said no problem, you probably would not pull it past 23 inches. Now, while you have 2 columns with my bow and your bow and you constantly refer to mine at 54 pounds if one looks at the other chart behind you, you can see where you wrote, “K. Shannon fire hardened bow 50 pounds at 26 inches”3. So you obviously knew this bow was not 54 at 23 inches. Now, when you made your RU-vid making your bow about 6 months ago you claimed several times it was 55 pounds at 22 inches. That bow pulled to 23 inches will be 57 pounds, but we will give you the benefit of the doubt that it is 55 pounds. The problem is, when I did the math on my bow at 23 inches it comes to 43 pounds. And guess what, when I pulled it on the scale, it pulled 43 pounds at 23 inches! So, in reality, you were comparing a 43-pound fire hardened hickory to your bow at 55 to 57 pounds. When you look at your numbers, my fire hardened hickory bow blew away everything else on your board, including your 55-pound at 26-inch Osage which is what we have been saying for a year and a half! Now when you were comparing our two bows and you normally shoot 23 inches, I think it should have been very obvious to a professional such as you of the weight difference. Please don’t say you didn’t notice that. I realized you make bows for a living, but there are many people that have been successfully making fire hardened bows for a year and a half now and very well know the significant improvements and are way ahead of you on this topic. There is no way that you or your deceptive, convoluted numbers will be able to tell them that there is no difference. Very Sincerely, Keith Shannon
Keith, you are missing the whole point just like you did in our previous conversations. This video has nothing to do with comparing the speeds of the bows, and these numbers ARE accurate as measured. the one bow listed is the one you sent that you made, the other bow is the one I made from the blank you fire hardened. The powerstroke actually compounds speed much much faster than weight. Your personal bow is actually quite quick for its weight, really a nice bow, however the tips are far too thin to be contextually used with a primitive string, which gives it a bit of a boost as well. Again, none of these tests are about comparing the speeds to each of the other bows...this video is to only compare the speeds to the same bow in different time periods exposed to humid climates. I have no reason what so ever to skew any results... All I care about is the data collection. I didn't test your personal bow at 23" at all, you are reading that wrong. only the one I made from your blank which is designed to only draw 23". I understand your need to defend your ground, however you simply are not understanding what I am testing and a bit blinded by a sense of feeling attacked which I am not doing, nor do I have any reason whatsoever to lie about anything... it's quite unfortunate that you think as such. I plan on doing another video on my take on the fire hardenening in which I do have some good things to say about it. That is also why I said right in this video that I have more testing to do before I give any solid data. I honestly WANT all this fire hardening stuff to work out...because it would solve a hickory moisture problem I absolutely have this time of year... however what I am seeing in the patterns so far is that they still lose the same amount of speed as raw hickory in side by side tests when left in humid environments for several days...so the problem of humidity has not been solved... and when I called to pick your brain about it, you simply denied the issue based on lumber science from Europe which cannot be extrapolated into how humidity will effect the bow in real world performance tests like I am doing. I don't know why you can't understand that I want this to work the way you advertise, yet I don't see the results as you presented... but instead of working with me on it, you took offense to it and decided to argue with me and insinuate that I have no idea what I am doing. I will say this.... you can say whatever you like and refuse to believe the data, however sir, I will not stand for anyone to accuse me of being a liar. I have asked multiple times for you and others to send their own firehardened bows in to undergo the same study (which I was not testing at the time you sent your personal bow in)... but you werent interested in sending anymore bows in for study..... which I assume was out of fear that you either think I am lying about it (which I take great offense to, sir), or you're worried the data taken will undermine your work... for someone that has repeated told me that "You want people to do more work and find out the truth" or "call bullshit on it" as you put it, you are taking a lot of offense to someone willing to do all that work and put out completely unbiased data.... and if you think you can do the real world tests better, then by all means do them and present them yourself, but you have done any such tests other than with a moisture meter which does not measure a variable of performance (as stated again in this video).
So what Im getting from this video is. In order for our ancestors to keep the consistency in there bows year round is, keep the bow finish on your bow year round, also in the humid summer months hang your bow near the fire to drive out the moisture. In the winter keep your bows away from the fire so it retains moisture because in the winter you have less moisture in the air
something to that effect. in the winter they could probably still be stored above the fire, but there is a possibility of them becoming too dry and breaking with the less humid climate and more intense heat from winter fires. I am sure there were different customs and practices in different regions
This is a good video on the importance of a finish on your bow, but I think it shows more about the limitations of sinew strings. Could you run the same tests/same bows with modern B55 and D97 vs sinew and rawhide strings?
@@huntprimitive9918 thank you and is there any way you could repeat the test Keith Shannon did by placing an unfinished fire hardened bow under water and then air drying it and compare before and after results?
@@geneg5870 I am sure I could. I imagine, according to his research that it would in fact lose the moisture faster, however I don't know of any early peoples that would sink their bows in water overnight... and if done accidentally why they would not dry by a fire again before using them. I understand the theory of the test, but it is not contextual in the least. also, a finished bow in the rain doesn't take on much moisture, but both unfinished bows, fire hardened and raw, both took massive speed losses when left in outdoor summer humidity, so the finish is crucial to the construction of the bow especially in early mans' context. I would like the fire hardened to be more resistant to speed losses in humid climates as that would solve a big problem, but thus far the data isn't giving me those results.... so I am still looking for a missing variable or a new idea overall
@@huntprimitive9918 I wonder if beeswax played a role in the fight against moisture? Maybe early man fired hardened white wood bows and then rubbed them down with a thin layer of beeswax periodically? Just a shot in the dark question....what do you think?
@@geneg5870 the european honey bee is what makes the beeswax we have today and it's actually not native to North America so beeswax wasn't available here pre-contact. Other native bee types don't make the wax like the european and african bees do (I am 99% sure but i may beee wrong)
I love your shirt! That’s an atlatl right? Are the projectiles for those more like arrows or true spears? I’ve always heard them called spears and I just thought that would be unruly. Why are those illegal to hunt with? I hate living in our modern world. Other than the how to videos, these are great.
1:47 can I club a seal and use blubber? I like to keep it as authentically primitive as possible. (This is a joke, I’m making fun of myself. I do look like every piece of paleo art showing my ancestors in Northern Europe though. I’m looking to move into an actual cave as soon as possible)
Luke Baker here in Kansas. Long time listener first time caller Ryan. I watch a ton of primitive build channels and you’re my favorite. They don’t come fast enough. What about straight deer tallow as a finish? Can you think of any disadvantages? Thinking of places like the great plains where pine pitch isn’t readily available naturally.
Also, would you have expertise enough to be interested in make if videos on basket weaving, primitive pottery, and leather making? There’s lots of non-hunting related primitive build content that I’d love to see from you
@@lukebaker844 thanks very much. I think straight animal grease would be ok, but I am not exactly sure how it would compare. I am sure many early ppls had their own personal blends and favorites. I actually have a couple other primitive skills videos floating around but without a doubt, the building and hunting is what I specialize in
there are definitely some benefits in fire hardening I will talk about in another video. It's not totally necessary for sure, but there are both pros and cons
Hi mr gill, was hoping to get your thoughts on the fire hardened hickory bows. How do they compare to Osage as far as speed and smoothness when drawing and shooting? Thanks
from the extensive testing I did on them for my new book (The Secrets and Science of Primitive Archery), they are quite snappy and speedy at first, however, they do take on moisture and stabilize to a higher moisture content than when first built. So unless you continuously force dry and seal them on a very regular basis, the performance level will significantly decrease similar to that of raw hickory. In contrast, Osage doesn't resorb nearly as much moisture and retains its speed and performance much better with less maintenance. My self and my associates all observe the same trends, so I am 100% team Osage for both high performance and low maintenance.
Hey Ryan. Keith was gracious enough to send you a bow and a fire hardened stave for your experiment. He sent them to you with nothing to hide but would like you to return the favor. We are doing experiments on our end and wanted to use your bow dried by the fire in our experiments. You could send the bow to Keith's address if you are willing. Thanks
yes, that wont be a problem and I can do that when all my data collection is finished (which should actually be soon (a few weeks I hope), no problem at all.
Do you suppose the smoke, also, fills the 'pores' of the wood so it seals it from humidity? Do know there was a leather curing technique with hides using smoke - PBS GPTV about 12-14 yrs past IIRC.
I have thought about that a bit as well. I also worked up a bow that was made with no fire at all, but super dried in a hot box. I will have that one in the full study as well
I've had such good results with fire hardening, it's hard to believe that it doesn't effect performance more. I get the numbers don't lie. We did see complete opposite results in Keith's and that's video. When I started fire hardening my bows stopped following the string, even after shooting on a humid day they return to their original profile
I’ve fire hardened several bows since purchasing Keith, Thad and Billy’s video. The improvements I’m seeing in performance, speed and durability are incredible. I love watching all the pieces of this puzzle come together. More importantly I enjoy seeing all this passion for primitive things...
@@BeckumOutdoors excellent Thad. I look forward to the results. I for one won't make another white wood bow without fire hardening now that I've seen the benefits.
@@erickharrington9901I will never make a raw hickory bow again, I saw the benefits with many fire hardened bows put to hard use. And that includes my own bows. Things are not adding up with the numbers here.
This might be a really nube question lol. Is there any evidence that primitive man might have over-built their bows to compensate for the loss in power/speed that they would experience in humid environments?
yes probably to some degree. Most accounts from explorers mentioned that the bows were so heavy the spanish couldn't draw them, however I find that common among people that don't grow up building the muscles to shoot heavier weight bows. In the new book I have lots of surveys and tests in regards to both drawn lengths, draw weights, and how fast draw length compounds energy compared to draw weight. It helps put a few things in perspective on the weight of early mans' bows
@@huntprimitive9918 Really looking forward to your book release! So they may have been "over building" but if they were snap shooting vs full draw and hold like the Spanish were probably used to, the technique and build style could produce good results.(?) I'm not sure if that was a statement or a question I just made lol, but that's how I could envision that.
How do you feel about birch oil? I know native people used it to a degree though (I'm not as educated on the topic as you) doesn't seem to be as prevalent as pine pitch from what I've seen. I've collected a bunch of black birch bark to use as a finish on my axe, not sure how it would work on a bow?
my first sinew-backed bow was weak but i successfully soaked it to remove sinew to remove. I want to put it on a self bow i made that i want to hunt with, what finish could i put on sinew backed bow that could be dissolved in hot water in case i need to repair bow?
This is irrelevant to the topic of bow finishes but I always seem to snap off the end of my points when pressure flaking near the tip to set up platforms or brush away tiny flakes, any advice on how to fix this, might be my technique
too much prerssure at the tip. I know what you mean. it just takes time to figure out all those little things. you just have to look at micro platforms to pressure flake from so it doesn't put too much torque on the tip. best of luck and keep after it
I think you are confusing Fire Hardening with Heat Treating. Fire hardening is the process of heating the belly of a bow, typically with a torch, short intense heating. Heat Treating a bow is the process of slowly exposing the entire bow (belly toward the fire), for hours, which actually alters the wood's characteristics significantly. Heat Treating a bow makes the wood "hydrophobic", whereas fire hardening does not.
I am fully aware of the process and used a blank from Keith Shannon as a reference and have also made several deeply fire hardened bows as well. I have been heat tempering bows for years so I am very familiar with the difference, and the fire hardened bows have been cooked for 4-6 hours with the carbonization running through the belly nearly to the back of the bow and even after tillering, the color and temper is still very present and deep.
