I mean...his son was like what, a handful of months old then? Sure he *met* his son, but he never met him as an actual thinking, self-aware sapient person. He never got to see his son grow up, so yeah, technically Mortius is right. He never did get to meet his son.
@@WittySomething except that wasn't the reason this was brought up. The reason this was brought up was that mortius brought up actual age for telemachus and not sentience
Small correction: Odysseus left when Telemachus was an infant. In “Just a Man”, Ody told Astyanax, “You’re as old as [my son] was when I left for war.”
Yes, Odysseus was there in Ithaca for the birth of his son, he was still an infant when he left though which is why Ody and Telemachus don't know each other
Came here to say this exact thing. Theoretically he should be 20-21 years old at this point. Its not like they had ultrasounds back then so how would he know it was a son if he was at war when Telemachus was born?
“Where’s my sword? I’ll fight you, Antinuous!” MOOD! The second he had the AUDACITY to call Penelope a “tramp”, he pretty much painted a big red target on his back in the fandom’s eyes. 😡
@@aadityayanamandra8846 ANT-in-us sound so weird. like I never knew how to pronounce it so my brain went for it being like "continuous" for some reason
@@qwerty_qwerty Jorge makes the same mistake lol, it's common. Technically, if you were trying to be 100% accurate and not englicizing the name, it'd be "ant-in-oh-OOS," but that sounds ridiculous in english
I've wondered if the wolf imagery is due to the maternal grandfather of Odysseus is named Autolycus which translates to "the wolf itself." He taught Hercules wrestling but also got him into trouble with his kleptomania. I've seen essays call Autolycus the "Prince of Thieves" of the Greek world.
Someone else pointed this out but its interesting how Antinous is like a evil Eurylochus. Eurylochus had the crew as his chorus and now Antinous has the suitors.
Honestly, him as an evil Eurylochus (instead of uplifting his crew, he uses them to put others down) is a pretty fun analogy, especially given his use of the electric guitar. Plus, that means Eurymachus (the more charming suitor who doesn't waste his time bullying Telemachus) can be seen as a darker Odysseus, using his brain and charisma solely to further his own ends. It also places Amphinomus, the suitor who refuses to join the others and attempts to protect Penelope and Telemachus, as a mirror to Polites.
Iirc, Jorge said that Antinuos instruments (yes plural) are opposite of Odysseus like the electric guitar (I think) and the other suitors become his background ensemble.
@@adamharith782has he specifically named the instruments? I was thinking drums and strings but I also hear a low reed instrument (clarinet/bass clarinet/sax/bari sax or a mix maybe)
Fun fact, the "Tell me, Athena, why you came to my aid" is in the same melody as a _Polites_ line from a cut song, Ismarus "What keeps you up so late at night, my friend?"
I mean… majority of us probably will not be trained effective fighters, but… damn do we got numbers. 108 vs…. 100,000? Heh… I’ll take those odds. (Rummages around for a metal bowl to use as a helmet and a broom to sharpen into a spear…)
17:34 Jorge made a post talking about the “whatcha gonna do about it champ?” and how incredibly well Ayron delivers that line. Despite his warning no one was prepared for it 😅😅
Ok I can finally tell you this without it being a spoiler! So when Athena says "if you're looking for a mentor I'll make sure your time's well spent" in WOTM it's a bit of a reference to the source material. The word "mentor" in English is directly derived from the Odyssey, as Mentes (sometimes just translated as Mentor) was the name Athena first went by when disguised as a mortal when she first met Telemachus :) only had to wait 7 sagas to tell you 😂
Someone pointed out on a tiktok before a really good point. In Legendary when telemacus sings: “if I fight this monster is It you I’ll find” can mean telemacus thinks if he fights he’ll die and if he dies he’ll see Odysseus in the underworld cuz his dad very well could be dead for all he knows.
Ohh I like that interpretation so much!! When I first heard it, I thought it was Telemachus thinking if he'll be just as strong as Odysseus is when fighting monsters SPOILER:: (I think Telemachus' line after finally reuniting with Odysseus is a good proof of this too "I could never outgrow you" @ Odysseus)
If you listen when this part turns blue 7:49 it plays Athena’s theme in the background to hint that she’s listening or heard his calls! Also Telemachus is legit Disney princess stuck in their room in a castle wanting to explore the outside world! 😂
Nothing against you, but I hate your comment. Every time I open the comments on my phone your comment gets "recommended" making me hit your timestamp and resetting me back.
And one of the parents is missing 😂. Lol he got that from Ody, I can just imagine the two of them exploring the world after being freed. Penelope will have her hands full.
@@lowstamina_arts No need to be sorry. It is why I explained at the start my gripe has 0% to do with you. RU-vid has gotten worse the more they try to fill the app space.
Jorge is why we knew about the 'what you gonna do about it champ' he made a video talking about he's been constantly saying it to himself because of how satisfying it sounded
The timeline is: 10 years in Troy 3 years at sea 7 years at Calypso's island So yeah, 20 years Ody has been away from his kingdom, you can imagine why they're getting impatient when every other Greek hero has already returned to either rule or die in their land. Though it hasn't been 10 years since the events of Thunder Bringer, only 7 as mentioned at the start.
@@apossiblyhereticalalphaleg3595 Even in Epic: in the Wisdom saga it is confirmed that 20 years have passed, the Trojan War lasted 10 and the imprisonment on the island of Calypso 7, so there are 3 years missing, one of which on the island of Circe
@@Nisselak we have to presume in Epic they simply spent an extra year at sea. There is no way the events of Puppeteer until The Underworld took a whole year, unless Circe's island is simply ridiculous in size and Hermes really fucked around with bringing Ody to her palace.
Some may have already pointed this out, but if you listen carefully in Little Wolf, you’ll notice that Antony’s places more emphasis on the ‘Little’ whenever he speaks in order to insult Telemachus, whereas Athena focuses far more on emphasising the ‘Wolf’ part, using it as a way for extra encouragement.
@@DrakeDragontonit’s cause in the show How I Met Your Mother (where Barney Stinson is from) he has a catch phrase featuring the word Legendary. I’m gonna butcher it but something along the lines of: “This is gonna be Legen…wait for it…dary!”
"If she won't choose a man to adorn her, we'll bring blood and tears" is both a statement that he will suffer to appease the anger and a foreshadowing that they are getting closer to SAing his mom.
Fun fact, Jorge said that Antinous' music is a combo of electric guitar and trumpet, to show that he is trying to replace Ody and to remind us of Poseidon, another "villain"
Telemachus is 20, he was born before the war but was just a baby, so Ody never 'knew' him since he wasn't old enough to have a personality. Saving Telemachus is actually why Odysseus failed to dodge the draft, he tried to claim insanity by ploughing his field and planting salt, but Telemachus was placed in the path with the argument that if he was truly mad, an infant on the path wouldn't give him pause.
Athena realizing her mistakes and crying about it on the balcony with Telemachus got my emotions flying in so many different directions. And having the WOTM theme play, then switch to Legendary? This saga is absolutely incredible, and broke me at the same time.
Spoiler question Am I the only one who feels like it's heavily implied Ody was forced to sleep with Calipso ? When she says "Come/climb to bed", is always near him and him being on the cliff at the end in so much pain. Like knowing the original I feel like it did happen here in the Musical-
I've gotten to the point where when I was listening to the wisdom saga for the first time my first thought upon hearing some of the lyrics was "I can't wait to see Mortius react to this."
In legendary when he says “somebody tell come and give me a sign” the screen turns blue and you can hear the Athena motif in the backround nice little detail
Telemochus was born while Ody was still there, because in "Im just a Man" Ody says the baby is the same age a Telemochus was when Ody left. As a baby though, Telemochus doesn't remember "meeting" his dad
So the suitors have been there basically since most warriors of Troy came home and Ody and crew never did, so it has been assumed he is dead. Since he was a king, a replacement is needed to marry his widow and become the new king. Since she's the Queen, she has a bit of agency in choice. If you've ever heard of a "Penelope's shroud", that is how she is stalling as is mentioned. She told the suitors who has overrun the palace waiting for a choice to be made that she would choose one of them once she completes weaving a burial shawl for her father in law. The cheeky part is that she would weave during the day and sneak back at night and undo her work for the day to prolong that decision date.
Ooooohhhhhh....So that's why in the lyrics of the song "challenge" (unreleasong by the way) is she sàid"they don't know, that every night, i unthread all the work i've done" she is so genius on that part. I didn't know this... The thing that she's on threading is a shawl .... I thought something else😅.but that is so cool
Fun fact translated Cerberus means in some ways spotted so Hades this giant dork called His 3 headed hellhound Spot and im laughing everytime thinking about it😂
SO excited for this but also so excited to see you lose your s*** over Love in Paradise and possibly God Games I know I did 😂 Also We’ll Be Fine is so wholesome and is up there with Open Arms with my favorites
For the "What you gonna do about it champ?", Jorge made a video about how there are a lot of lines in the Wisdom saga that are delivered "so masterfully" it gets stuck in his head, then goes on to say how he's specifically thinking of that line.
I think he kind of did but they basically ignored it, and let's not forget the suitors aren't Noble they just each want to be the king (honestly I'm surprised the suitors were ever really United, considering they each want to be Penelope's husband, and there's 108 of them, seriously how did they ever manage to present a united front)
@@dragansnyder2786 There are a lot of rules for hospitality baked into greek stories. i.e.) Since you can't even know if a god is present in disguise you can't ever turn away a guest. These rules trapped Penelope into accepting the suitors into her home and playing the host. These same rules forbade the suitors from killing each other in their hosts home. It was less a united front and more of a, "follow the laws."
@@yuukinoyuki9064I'm also pretty sure that there's something in the Greek rules of hospitality about not waddington murder the man who would hypothetically play the head of the household (thank you for providing that little bit of context, it just kind of surprises me because they probably are held together in that way by the hospitality laws, but then these men constantly bluster about how if Odysseus dares to come back into his own house they're going to kill him because there's more of them, and as far as I can tell Odysseus doesn't exactly just start murdering people when he gets home, I think it's more like they realized who he was and tried to kill him and then he started dropping them, right?
@@dragansnyder2786 So, there's actually no blustering about killing Ody. They all 100% believe Odysseus is dead, it's been 10 years since everyone else returned from the war and the last anyone heard Odysseus' ships were seen off the shores of Ithaca and were then swallowed up by a giant storm. His own mother was so convinced of his death that she killed herself (hence why we see her in the underworld.) Recall the prophet's line; "I see your palace, covered in red/faces of men who had long believed you're dead." A lot of their anger is that Penelope keeps using tricks to prolong making a choice, which - because they're convinced Odysseus is dead - reads like a slap in the face. There is blustering about killing Telemachus, but that's more because as he ages he becomes a threat to their chance at the throne. But even then, they wouldn't outright kill him and envoke the wrath of the gods, (hence letting him live following 'Little Wolf') they'd make it look like an accident, or force him to break the rules first. As for Odysseus' return I don't mind sharing but SPOILERS for anyone reading who wants to go in blind. In the Odyssey, Odysseus sneaks into his Kingdom dressed as an old man. His wife has put together one last stall, saying she'll marry the man who can string her husband's old hinting bow and soot through several tiny rings. Everyone fails and says it's impossible, but then an old man steps up, easily strings the bow, and makes the shot. He then drops his hood and reveals to everyone that it's Odysseus returned. Man then goes on an absolute murder spree just slaughtering every suitor in his home. So any token fight by the suitors at that point are done in response to the literal arrows of death being rained down on them, lol.
Your reaction to Antinous' existence is so relatable Lol. Though of course, he has one of the greatest vocals and song(s) of this musical. His voice is the perfect Disney villain voice. Because there's this rule: Villains always have the best songs.
To add on to the spoiler at 9:32 Penelope hosts a challenge for the suitors to string up Odysseus’s recurve bow that he didn’t bring to war since it was a present and shoot it through twelve axe heads. Said bow had a ridiculous draw strength so none of them didn’t even stringed it. Then Odysseus, disguised as a beggar, takes on the challenge and easily strings and shoots through the twelve axes while revealing himself in the process. He and Telemachus engaged in much needed father-son bonding by killing most of the suitors. Personally, I’m interested in seeing how EPIC would do this part
Broskis I've been listening to this entire saga on repeat and I can't believe it took me watching this video to realize Athena was present the entire time during legendary! She appears when telempchus says "someone give me a sign" brilliant
Wisdom Saga actually living to its name with Athena showing some character growth and gaining of wisdom. Also... in the last saga it has been 12-ish years, and this one started with a splash screen saying "7 years later", Mortius... and Telemachus was a baby when Odysseus left, so he's somewhere in the 20-22 range. Remember "You're as old as he was when I left for war" in Just a Man
The fact that the line is "Fight LITTLE WOLF" When earlier posiedon said "Guess the pack of wolves is swimming with the shark now." The callback from that was crazy
Telemachus was actually born before Odysseus went to war. Funnily enough, they never mentioned how Agammemnon tried to stab him as a baby to get Odysseus into the boats for war
1:25 well I don’t know, Jorge released a short celebrating Wisdom saga getting 10million streams in 4 days, so I think he’ll be fine with me watching this stream reaction
I know you split these up for more videos but I would 100% watch an hour or 2 compilation of you reacting to the whole saga, the wait is just torture 😭
WHY DID YOU HAVE TO MAKE US WAIT?! WHHYYYYYYYY????!!!!!! 😫 But regardless I can’t wait to see your reaction!! I guarantee you’ll absolutely love them!! I’m so excited for this hehe!! 🤩
16:15 “where’s my sword!” YES this is the first video I’ve watched yours and I loved your vibe since the beginning BUT YES! THIS! I LOVE IT! FUCK HIM UP!
28:30 actually he did 'meet' him. Telemachus was actually historically the reason why Odysseus went to war. Ody was pretending to be mad because he didn't want to go. Another guy who's name im forgetting rn(something starting with a P that isn't Polites) threatened to kill Telemachus to prove Odysseus hasn't lost his mind, which worked
Imagine calling Penelope a tramp for [checks notes] ...waiting two decades for her husband to come home and NOT letting anyone else near her bed in all that time
In the song legendary while the lyric "come and give me a sign" 7:46 plays you can hear the theme from Warrior of the mind in the Background and i think thats really cool
The reason why it’s 20 years is because Telemachus and Penelope have not seen him since he sailed to go and do the Trojan war. The Trojan war itself took 10 years and then it took another 10 years for Odysseus to sail from Troy back to Ithaca. so when he tells Circe that it’s been 12 long years he’s counting the Trojan war.
@Idkmyusername5672 the video was posted 3 days ago, but in his short, he was posting how he was making all the songs like gods games, which was a year that's why there's already animatics that were posted a year ago
11:55 i cant imagine how old Argos is just waiting for his owner to comeback and watching over his owners son. Alone its been 20 years since Odysseus left for war, and from what i read Argos is Odysseus childhood pet so Argos is 25+ years old. Bestest boi and most loyal friend there can possibly be, Argos is the definition of man's bestest friend 🧡 🐕🍖🦴 Like to Give Argos Pets and Treats ❤
I don't know if this is technically a spoiler or not, but the suitors saying "where is he" is inepired by a song called 'Man Of The House" which was cut from epic & we may see it again. Btw, all the cut songs from epic are amazing & you react to them!
