Psychopathy, Truth and the Slave Trade: Liverpool, Caribbean and America W/Laurence Westgaph 

We’re raising £20,000 for A plaque to commemorate the slaves who lived and died in Liverpool most of whom were buried in unmarked graves www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/liverpoolenslaved?DW5A For daily updates/articles on little-known historical aspects of the slave trade join Laurences Facebook group facebook.com/groups/1941789819395511/ To join Laurence on his history walks around Liverpool www.eventbrite.co.uk/o/laurence-westgaph-3052085083 0:07 - 4:44 group shame is not necessary or valid 5:23 - 6:33 open and honest conversation is the way forward 6:33 - 7:24 who decides what history we learn 7:24 - 10:30 Liverpool is not “bad” because of slavery 10:30 - 12:30 who’s history are we getting? 12:30 - 16:14 American identity and Black America 16:14 - 18:30 African immigration was stopped by law 18:30 - 20:00 “Race” is in the DNA of America 20:00 - 22:00 “Jim Crow” is a blackface minstrel act 22:00 - 23:00 the “one drop” rule 23:00 - 24:45 the Jamaican Colony Race Designation System 24:45 - 27:50 “White Passing” 27:50 - 30:00 pseudoscience and use of “mulatto” 30:00 - 31:30 emotional attachment to “race”/culture 31:30 - 33:00 Hendrix, Jazz, and “black authenticity” 33:00 - 34:34 “Blackness” in the diaspora is multicultural 34:34 - 36:57 “cultural appropriation” and Black tone deafness 36:57 - 39:14 was “Black Panther” cringe? Laurences top comic heroes 39:14 - 40:46 More Comprehensive African History 40:46 - 44.43 the Jamaican “Maroons” former rebel slave survivalists 44:43 - 46:00 Takys Rebellion 46:00 - 48:44 Thomas Thistlewood Sadistic Psychopath 48:44 - 50:02 “Derby’s Dose” 50:02 - 51:50 “12 Years A Slave” Violent Depravity 51:50 - 54:10 Violence breeds Psychopathy 54:10 - 56:08 Emancipation Proclamation 56:08 - 58:00 1865 to 1965 is only 100 years 58:00 - 1:02:00 Reconstruction 1:02:00 - 1:04:11 were black slaves “American Citizens”? 1:04:11 - 1:07:00 Dominican Republic and it’s complex history 1:07:00 - 1:09:15 Sugar and Haitian Slavery , Hispaniola Split 1:09:15 - 1:11:11 Trujillo and white make up 1:11:11 - 1:13:50 the dark, dark history of the Caribbean 1:13:50 - 1:16:00 when were the whites out of Jamaica? 1:16:00 - 1:18:00 Race and power status in Caribbean 1:18:00 - 1:20:00 Haitians status in the Dominican 1:20:00 - 1:24:00 Black Solidarity as Myth/Fictive Kinship 1:24:00 - 1:25:50 “Black” within a power structure 1:25:50 - 1:27:07 Joining a race gang in prison 1:27:07 - 1:31:55 Race and appearance in Liverpool 1:31:55 - 1:32:19 a wide and varied gene pool 1:32:19 - 1:36:25 Detroit and Liverpool share decline 1:36:25 - 1:37:45 Liverpool’s Crime Reputation 1:37:45 - 1:40:40 Crack, Gun Crime - Laurence in Inglewood 1:40:40- 1:42:10 Laurence in LA, “colours” 1:42:10 - 1:44:33 Individual responsibility vs Environment 1:44:33 - 1:46:25 opportunities, mechanisation and dystopian futures 1:46:25 - 1:48:15 spontaneous revolution, turn tv off 1:48:15 - 1:51:50 the cost of lost tribal contact 1:51:50 - 1:53:10 Parents are more fearful now 1:53:10 - 1:56:35 Historical Naïveté and the human condition 1:56:35 - 1:59:36 Britain, psychopathy, entrepreneurialism 1:59:36 - Israel/ Palestine and the British

I sincerely wish for these interviews to be shown in as many classrooms as possible. THANK YOU GUYS!!!!!!

It's nice to sit back and listen to two knowledgeable people having a non argumentative chat.God bless you both

The first interview was amazing. Lawrence has a wealth of knowledge and I look forward to this tomorrow!

Fascinating and very educational interview. I’m American and I learned a lot. Just loved this intelligent conversation. Thank you guys, everyone needs to hear this.

Thank you Richard, I really appreciate this series with Laurence! Looking forward to seeing the second part of the interview. Greetings from Croatia!

Brilliant conversation Mentally stimulating .. I like the idea of seeing ourselves as the foundation of the new countries we slaved in. I got a warm feeling in me gulliver when I heard that ! > Very nice to hear about this fellow - making moves to educate people & open a foundation to contribute to the heritage of the coastal islanders & all others that came from far & wide to make England the GREAT BRITAIN - we know of, today. Respects to all our forefathers who broke their backs & served to build new nations. History may have called them slaves, but actually, they were heroes. ✨🧡🙏🏼🙏🏼🌊🧡✨

Another great discussion! Keep doing these! I learn more about history in 2 hours than I did in my 12 years of public education in the States. I'm fascinated listening to you two talk...

The expansiveness of subjects in your videos is exceptional. So appreciate this very important history lesson to understand the challenges and experiences of the black population across the globe.

These chats really inspire a lot of questions about the history we’re taught. Particularly over here across the pond. It even varies by region here. I’ve met people from other parts of the US in my own age range who learned a completely different version of the American Civil War than what I was taught as a child in Mississippi. Not to say either was entirely correct, just starkly different. Thanks again to you both for sharing your knowledge. 🤓

What intelligent empathetic conversation, so glad to have found this

Really enjoying the history lessons. Need more. Have been listening with my daughter, so she actually gets a real history lesson. Just not understanding why anyone would dislike this video? Only 4 dislikes but I guess some people don't like real history, especially if it doesn't fit the narrative they want to push.

This is so fascinating. I still haven't been able to get through the whole interview, but I'm almost there. I love the fair, balanced attitudes of you both. I know your ego has been stroked an nauseum, Richard, but seriously, you surround yourself with quality in every regard, especially people. I have often thought about the ways in which religion should have curbed the devilish appetites for greed and control and cruelty instead of justifying them. Someone said in an earlier comment, this of our history with slavery should be taught in schools everywhere.

If we are truly being honest then the Irish taken to the Caribbean as slaves should be acknowledged on this plaque

It just occurred to me it should be noted here in America women were not allowed to vote until recent times and my own mother was not “ALLOWED “ to get a loan in the 1970’s. That blew my mind!!

Absolutely enjoyed this as a fellow history nerd! Always enjoy learning the complexities of the past that is very much intertwined into the present! Ty for sharing this good sir! To both of you gentleman, keep up the good work!

Laurence is brilliant! Such an enlightening conversation! Thank you both!

You two should join together as a team and invite other guests and have open discussions every month!

Glad I've found this channel. Struggling a lot right now and I'm looking forward to watch some of your videos. And the facts you are local too makes it all the better.

My take is No more sweeping under the carpet... Dirt naturally exists.and some shit really stinks but if we just wilfully learn to do our part in keeping it reasonably n responsibly clean, though tedious however definitely rewardingly refreshing for one and all.... Much 💛Guys!!!🥂

Thank you from the land of OZ this is a conversation that we also need to share - appreciating your depth and character gentlemen...

This was an amazing discussion. One of the most in-depth discussions about history and race I’ve ever heard. This should be shown in our schools here in the US. I stayed up way past my bedtime to listen to this.

These interviews are absolutely amazing. Thank you Laurence and Richard. For doing what you do x

So eye opening and informative! Thank you, we need more of this! Real undoctored history! Also love the ironic laughter coming from on and off camera..." Get the flag Harold!" Great balance and delivery. Great interview.

Billie Holiday was told not to sing Strange Fruit but she didn't stop resulting in the government delegitimizing her Southern trees bear a strange fruit Blood on the leaves and blood at the root Black bodies swingin' in the Southern breeze Strange fruit hangin' from the poplar trees Pastoral scene of the gallant South The bulgin' eyes and the twisted mouth Scent of magnolias sweet and fresh Then the sudden smell of burnin' flesh Here is a fruit for the crows to pluck For the rain to gather For the wind to suck For the sun to rot For the tree to drop Here is a strange and bitter crop

Another interesting interview. This time I'm happy the Caribbean got more attention. Thank you Laurence for your eye opening information. And as Richard said that I agree, absolutely handsome 😊😊.

" Get the flag Herold" 😂😂😅 I can´t wait for the third part. Just GOOOOO, was great!

Fantastic & thought provoking.. thank you, gentlemen. I now need to backtrack and watch the previous conversation.

Thank you for this second conversation. I loved the first one. And loved this one too. More of this please Richard. People need this more than we think. 💜🙏💜

This was so good ✨

Excellent conversation. Thank you Richard Grannon.

I've never met a thick scouser. Liverpudlians are amongst THE most charming, warm, engaging and intersting people I've ever met in my life.

Loved this and the last talk, easy flowing and relaxed. I hope you take up the offer of doing a walk with Laurence.

Interesting conversation but Laurence was way off with the demographics of the early United States. The United States were never majority black! The United States was 19.3% black in 1790, 92% of which were enslaved (17.8% of the U.S.). From there the white population slowly increased as a percentage until about 1940 when 89.8% were white and 9.8% were black.

Such an interesting and enlightening conversation,thank you 🙏🏼

This was brilliant. I have not heard many conversations with such balanced perspective, historically and personally.

Really enjoyed listening to your conversation again!

I believe some of the founding fathers struggled with the fact there were not going to be a structure to foster integration or means to set up freed people with healthy structure .

This was a fascinating discussion, learnt alot that i didn't previously know, wish i would have had this guy as my history teacher when I was at school! Love from Manchester UK

These maroons being called upon to get back other blacks sounds like my Crow people were called on to ride with Custer . Many did this to maintain warrior class and not be in desolation

I do hope Richard that you ask Lawrence's opinion on the continuing racism directed towards white South African farmers, who have had their homes burnt to the ground and have even been murdered Racism isn't reserved for just one colour

This needs sharing of ideas between these two men is a godsend, this needs to pick up as much momentum as possible. A podcast? guests?

hello, im a new subscriber and glad to be hear ,,im a trained intergraded therapist pca cbt psycho dynamic , also interested in many other approaches fed up of listening to disingenuous persons attempting to latch on self development as way to make money without regard for the potential harm they can cause, but this here was very refreshing two men listening and interacting together well, will text further when have time , thanks

This is one of the best podcast I've ever listened too! Absolutely fantastic, dead interesting 👏 👍 and you both are extremely intelligent!! Thank you guys absolutely love it!

Brilliant discussion -- thanks

Love, love, love this talk. More please.

Great conversation. The field of Comparative and International Education (CIE) deals with this a lot.

I wish that this interview focused more on how the past, effects us today. How the traumas endured by our ancestors still echo emotionally/spiritually in us today. Regarding America's Founding Fathers, - I have compassion for their conundrum; first because we each get caught up in the social machinery of our times; secondly because the Southern States would never have joined the Revolution if their slaves were set free immediately; thirdly the Slaves were property and not human, so a system to financially compensate the Plantation owners needed to be established. The Founding Fathers began work with what was an imperfect Union with the understanding that slavery was the issue which would be later addressed. They chose half a loaf rather than none. Slavery was outlawed early in the New England States because the North became industrialized early on and northern families didn't own as many slaves. Some books I've read say that Soutthern Slavery would have died out earlier but Eli Whitney invented the Cotton Gin which made cotton growing plantations suddenly more profitable - needing to keep their slaves. I love this subject because it gets to the core of the American psyche today. If we can unravel this issue perhaps we can all heal.

Not only is “one drop” a rule that grades people’s race down to 1/32nd, but is also a really cool/famous reggae drum beat originating in Jamaica and popularized by Bob Marley, where there is nothing played on the first beat, hence the name “one drop” since the beat that falls on the one is “dropped” or taken out.

Most ppl nowadays don't understand how does it feel to live without basic freedoms, they don't understand protecting a nation from "others" used to be and still is to this day a necessity. There are still places though where ppl understand that nationalism is not an abstract idea and it's there for a reason. After some time under the dictatorship of "others", you understand that your homeland is your home really. Protecting it with borders is a sensible thing to do if you wanna feel at home and keep your freedom.

great series - I look forward to more discussions

Laurence is fascinating to listen to.

My Gooooddd 😱!!! If intelligence was porn this would be it for me😂😂!!!! Absolutely fantastic ❤️🤗!!!

I look forward to watching this interview 🙌

I have really enjoyed both of these talks. There seems to be a serious inability to look at history in an adult context and without all the filters we have been conditioned to view the world through. I don't think it helps when people come out with terms such as "whataboutism". I think there are many reason people raise other incidents when we talk about the trans-Atlantic slave trade in particular. It may be for some a deflection from personal shame and guilt, but I think it is the guilt and shame that is being projected onto people and many people feel they need to defend themselves from this attack. There seems to be a serious lack of open conversations around it. It is either completely ignored or is used as an example to guilt and shame a whole section of society and at the same time victimising another. As Richard went into in the R complex, we are continually being bombarding with the rod of guilt and the flail of shame. We need to accept that we are all human and humans do some weird, horrible and good things. Look at Churchill, he is constantly being attacked for the bad things he was involved with, even standing up to the Nazi's doesn't give him a free pass. Rather than accepting he was a complex character who did some great things and some bad things (just like every other human that has ever lived), we either completely ignore the good or bad. Britain, just like Churchill did some great things but it was also involved in a lot of bad. We should be able to talk about both without the filters of guilt and shame. These have been great conversations, we need more like this on a wise range of topics. I hope you do a third part.

really good guys. eye opener :-)

Was thinking about what Patrice said about Liverpool for the whole 4 hours of these interviews and then you mentioned it can't believe it😂. It was from a pretty obscure O&A episode if I remember.

I really love this series of interviews I hope you will keep doing them :)

All in all, brilliant and enlightening! Thanks to Richard and Laurence. ...Lest we forget, as they say, because for all intent and purpose, yes history does have a way of repeating itself (let's not blame history itself). I think nations and alike fighting and competing for identity, shows the lack of; so what am I really, must be a personal question... ? Thanks again to Laurence, for the opportunity to donate to the commemorative plaque for the slaves who lived and died in Liverpool

Great chat.

Educating, Refreshing , Poignant ! Merci !!

Really good episode!

Thank you. This is very true.

It is understandable that whites of North European descent have an American identity because why would someone who did not go there freely identify with that country? Re: immigration: it wasn't only racial discrimination until fairly recently, it was anyone who was not an Anglo/northern European including "white" Catholics and Asians and yes, it was to preserve the protestant origin of the nation. After all the founders fled from Catholicism. The little known story of Abraham Lincoln wanting to "deport", in actuality repatriate slaves to Africa may sound terrible, but he and many others thought the plan to be humane. Since the 1920's US immigration laws have been changed to serve the capitalist corporate elite. Same in the UK. The medical brain drain from east to west is all part of the false "captalist" construction we live in. In sourcing workers will always hurts the local population, including now American blacks.

Germany is such a beautiful country, friendly, generous people. Yet when I’m there, I can’t help feel sadened by the apologetic nature of many of the people. Literally like the old Harry Enfield sketch.

Haiti I hope will be discussed as a key player in this paradigm.

Laurence is absolutely awesome 💕 fascinating guy, amazing attitude, fabulous accent. Love from London

13 mins in Richards been word punched! never seen him this baffled

In the Spanish colonies, a Cimarron was a runaway slave

YaY, love this! Thank You!!🧜‍♀️✌️

This is post colonial AF! Love it! Please consider inviting Fred Wilson in conversation with Laurence. That would be out of this world! :)

Thank you !!!!this was fantastic so interesting and learned so much.

Amazing again! Thanks to you both! 🙏

The lovely children's book, jump at the sun, introduced me to Zora Neale Hurston who you may perhaps already be aquatinted w/. I look forward to perusing her work. Among the works listed is Barracoon: The Story of the Last Black Cargo. Thank you for this insightful interview.

There are machines to harvest sugar cane. Have been around for almost 100 yrs, invented in Australia.

1:39:00 onwards....frickin Gold 🔥🌜🌟

Awesome - thank you both - excellent

Don’t be careful what you say about America. We need to hear more of what everyone else thinks about America than what America thinks about everyone else.

Your depiction of the US is a birds eye view without context.. You are both great thinkers.. You could do much better on US history... As for the carribean and England, I do not know enough.. I believe the guest is an expert on those topics..

Ahhhh the memories..... Waarrriorrrssss!!! Come out and plaaaaaayyyy!

Fantastic, thank you!

Also once politicians are envolved all charities and good projects are manipulated to suit their purpose.

Quadroon ext were also native American. Native American and black both got labeled the same

Brilliant

The Asda self checkout needs the luddites! The postie in Liverpool one is the worst self service in the city!!

God love us, we can get to the moon , but not invent something for harvesting Cane .

Fascinating sharp smart

Wow! Not missing out on this.

Blacks in the north lived free. Blacks in the north owned businesses. Lots of blacks were in politics in the south.

Yes, being honest and accurate about the past does not equate condemnation or blame, it is simply a statement of fact……… 🌀♥️🌀 What might be possible if the dominate construct for the concept of power was redefined, i.e., power as an infinite resource that is available to ALL entities… ??

Free state of Jones

There was a forced labor camp found recently in Palatka Florida USA

I think people are generally defencive, myself included at times, because it's now levelled at us one-sidely against our very foundations of us as individuals, our country, and our values (though, this could be due to the fact that it was majoritively positive beforehand). When you also understand many of the socialistic roots in this push, it's hard to give it a pass.

Fyi... Look up democratic party and slavery... That is what Lincoln and our British forefathers were up against... So much gets lost in the conversation.. Political science would be helpful in understanding democracy and what happens when societies move too far left... The roots of slavery are much deeper and wider than the history in the US.. I am in the conservative school of thought... We do not have a history of slavery, socialism... I think it is more accurate and productive to discuss the attrocities of all countries in terms of type of government because that is what gives men of all races the power to do evil. You can bank on that. History will prove I am right. African slavery alone has many groups and countries around the world that participated, and it reached the west onlly after 1500 years of just the Arab slave trade of Africans. It is very misleading today and dangerous for the woke to imply it is brown amd black against white people. I believe in accountability for all people.. The large majority of white people in the US alone and around the world never owned a black slave. 365000 Americal white men died to free slaves. It would be arrogant and misleading to portray white people as the culprits of slavery.. Young black, brown and white men need to know what they are up against and ot is not at all eachother. It is power, greed and government that does not check and balance. History will prove my statement accurate.. Knowledge with virtue set us all free. Finally, i am an American.. I cannot speak for all white people, but being racist in shunned her, so you will not come here and find many racist white people. If you bring up George Flloyd. He was a drug addict with a long and violent rapp sheet.. The police were not going to treat him with kid gloves wether white or black.the officers knee was not on his neck.. A whit man died the same way as floyd under the same conditions.. They were both on heavy and dangerous drugs. Police should be trained that restraining a person on heave drugs has limitations, but i do not believe it was the police officers intent to kill at all.. Stattics are proof that the police here are by very far not racist. So i disagree with you guest tat the US is some how inherantly racist...if we loom at the history of almost all countries, than we would all be inherantly racist.. It truly depends on who has power and if there are checks and balances... We have a population here of whites and blackes living in American socialism. They feel stuck.. Please dont tell them inaccurately that it is racism.. Use urselves as examples of what education can do for you.. Inspire them to take responsibily for their future. They are at a disadvantage.. Many have no fathers.. American socialis is failing young people in the prime of their life.. They need to be introduced to the wonders of history and psychology so they develop.passions lime the 2 of u..

This is the good stuff....

I suggest thinking of the facts void of tonal judgment as a person who is in the teacher position and seriously reported as the way News used to be.I am tripping to see high silly drama.

Those who dictate the perceptions of history, control the perceptions of the future. Those who control people's perceptions control people's actions. Great conversation guys, I am loving these history focused ones. Pretty sure there weren't more black people in America pre 1820 but maybe I am wrong. The censuses say I'm right. Thank you for the conversation though, great interview.

Why is "black" still an okay term? Half cast is dated but isn't "black" as well?

Thank universal intelligence and my amazing forefathers/mothers...... Whatever.... They may have been.... I'VE always been nonjudmental

I believe some slave owners could get in trouble if they allowed or didn't suppress the ability for slaves to read . It was weird coming and going .