PVP DRAMA - Ashes of Creation Carebears Vs Griefers 

My 2 cents is that I have no problem with the pvp system set up the way Intrepid says it will be . My beef with the gathering and loot drop on death mechanic is that if I'm going to put the time and effort into finding a rare item that has a 0.01% drop rate , I don't want that same item to drop from me at a 25% drop rate if I die . I would like some player agency to better hold onto what I decide is valuable.

I think you underestimate the willingness and ability of griefers to screw with people regardless of consequences.

I have a couple of ideas on how to mitigate this, and they're both based on EVE Online. EVE has good griefing mitigation, IMO: you CAN gank someone anywhere, but if you do you end up with a bounty which might prevent you from entering certain parts of the universe. And the safest parts of New Eden are known as "HighSec," or high security, because the moment you shoot upon someone who hasn't agreed to PVP, NPC police will rain hellfire upon you in an unlimited wave until you've been annihilated. But the HighSec areas are in the middle, and as you get further out, you start losing security. As you start losing security, response time is slower. In LowSec, there are sentry guns that will only destroy a perp if they're in the vicinity of gate or station, and pirates can often get away. And in NullSec, there is no law. NullSec is actually the largest portion of the universe, but you have to make your way out there, so you know what you're getting into--but the draw is that the rarest ores and gasses are out in Low/Null Sec. So one idea would be to replicate a system like this, but have it centered around nodes. Larger nodes are higher security; guards patrol the perimeter of the city and walk along the paths. Closer to the city, more guards. so you gather around the big cities to stay safe, and it incentivizes cities to try and grow to make it safer. Or...have certain nodes safer than others. Like Nodes whose ZOI border the coast are safer than the landlocked nodes. So those landlocked nodes have materials that are harder to get, but are not otherwise safe. It would also help incentivize building larger towns inland. Just some ideas.

Have no problem with open world PvP but I remember MMOs like Ultima Online where high level players would kill you and simply stand over your resurrection spot and kill you over and over and over again the second you were alive. They also camped areas leading into and out of towns. Quit the game shortly after buying it and although I heard there were changes to deal with the griefers later I just didn't care. I was too angry to ever touch the game again. Have no problems with high level people trying to go after farmers in the wilderness but camping spawn points where people come back to life or gateways to towns is BS.

It could be really cool to have highly valuable materials on each continent that would require to boat from one continent to the other, so that you would have guilds that specialize in taking out those caravans, and guild who provide protection etc. It could be really cool to have things like that!

You can call me care bear or whatever, but I've played enough MMOs to know that some people really only have fun if they are ruining someone else's day. So we'll see how well they handle griefing.

I feel the corruption system is going to prevent most from playing the psycho/bandit RP character, so I'm relatively happy with that. What I am slightly concerned about is how 'corporatized' the game is going to be, with just a few massive guilds running everything and you, the lowly player, having to bend the knee to some irl creep's power trip.

This is exactly Lineage 2 PVP system, and it is awesome.

For Halloween AoC could have a once a year purge day, where there is no penalty for murdering anyone, but you also don't get exp debt, or drop anything. Would make great content for that day..

*Between the Bounty Hunter system, and the crippling effects of Corruption, I don't think Griefing randoms, or gatherers will be a sustainable type of gameplay in Ashes. But also, people are opportunistic. So if someone knows for SURE that you're carrying a valuable material (say a Gold Dragon tooth) you WILL be attacked the entire way to your storage point.*

I miss MMOs where most of the XP came from defeated monsters. We logged into the game, left the city, entered a cave where we did a hunt, alone or with a group of friends, and when our characters leveled up we went back to the city to store/sell items, prepare for a new hunt or close the game. Simple as that... None of those boring quests of walking around the map for hours just to talk to the next NPC on your list of 5/10 completed quests. A MMORPG doesn't have to be complex, full of stories and missions to be good. Games nowadays offer you 10 XP for killing each wolf in the forest, but at the end of a mission you get 10,000 XP just walking from one city to another.... Unfortunately there are some current concepts that should be reviewed by game developers, as leveling through combat will always be much more important and rewarding than reading texts and walking around maps!

The PvP system would be similar to what was (not sure now) in Lineage 2. In my opinion not the fairest system, as in L2 the way you would circumvent being Red was by bringing a group with you, which when healing you will make them Purple (fragged) and if anybody attacked them, they became Purple also and if you dont attack them then you dont stand a chance. This would be easy avoidable by making anyone assisting a Red player, Red yourself. Also the other part of being corrupt (Red) was that in order to get rid of it there were only 2 options, get killed until the karma points disappeared, this was resulting in loosing a lot of exp, even de-leveling and the other was by killing mobs, but would need to be mobs of your level, so PKing in low level would mean unable to get rid of karma without dying. Another aspect was not able to teleport or go into towns, so it would not be very easy to leave the place where you PK. However what players were doing was equipping low lvl armor and going into low level zones, and when someone actually wanted to PVP, the higher lvl player would decimate them because of the skill level and dmg of it. So a way of circumventing this would be to always show player level, and if not that, all stats to be on gear, so doesn't matter the skill, it would have similar power level as a low level player because of gear. Of course, many ways were invented to grief even with all of the above, one was to let yourself be low hp that if a player would engage in PvP, it would kill you in 1 hit which normally would only flag him, now he is Red so can be killed for a higher loss. Frankly I think L2 PVP system was fine and if implemented here with a few changes would be nice. All these farmers complaining about being killed while gathering, in L2 this was the most profitable thing. Granted only 1 class could gather and another craft, and they weren't very strong in terms of dmg, so they couldn't be OP and rich at the same time. But if in AOC you can gather/craft on any class, then you can be rich and OP because of it.

Lineage 2 had the best pvp system ever, with the best resources, bosses and farming spots being contested by other players. That made for the best player driven narratives, conflicts, wars, alliances, betrayal, etc... I hope they stay as close to the Lineage 2 pvp formula as possible.

Just when the copium withdrawals were kicking in Narc drops another banger. The Mad Lad strikes again

Be careful what you ask for...the ganking will be long, hard and deep

How id imagine it to go is like this 1- Find someone 2- Poke them 3- fight them if they fight back, just leave if they wont. (dont wanna be red). They should have bounty boards with maps that constantly show red players and their loot level~ so red players cant just hide. The only way id imagine this could be abused is if you just kept annoying someone without killing them, like for how long can you attack them while not actually gaining corruption? there should be a patience meter that could solve that easily.

They basically have L2 karma system. And it is good in my view.

There is a balance between carebear & griefing. getting murced is fine. Getting camped for minutes is not

I am curious if people could misuse the corruption system to purpusfully drop their bind on equip gear. Or what happens if someone has equipped gear that cannot be traded? Can that player still drop it? If so, people will abuse the system.

The problem with node wars is it always ends up with 2-3 massive guilds controlling most of them. So if you are not part one of these guilds, tough luck, you don't get to take part on that aspect of the game.

Back when world pvp was a thing in WoW, I used to play on pvp servers only, not because I wanted to attack or be attacked by other players, but because I wanted the option to be there, it added a bit of flavor and tension to every encounter, made the gameplay so much more interesting. And when a bunch of people used to gather on each side and chaos ensued, boy, was that fun! Sure, a pvp realm had his downsides (took more time to complete tasks for the obvious reasons), but overall, I enjoyed the thrill, it offered me something that a pve realm never could. Oh, and at times, players of the opposite faction would even help with an elite encounter, because at the end of the day, both sides needed each other to make the game fun ;)

the problem with player-driven content is you eventually run out of players

Can't wait to see wars break out because one guild across the map wants the resources of another guild across the map

Lineage 2 had one MAJOR problem that was basically droving away all but the most hardcore: bored high level griefers. So yes, L2 had the corruption mechanic and could drop gear when killed while red (a lot of gear). Problem was there were a lot of players who got an archer really high level, decided they didn't want to play it seriously anymore, and then dedicated it solely towards griefing using newbie bows and armor, knowing full well that even with newb gear, they would utterly steamroll actual newbs. I remember MANY times back then playing a level 20-something character and then contending with a level 65+ elven ranger running around the zone, one shotting all the newbs, myself included, and then instantly logging out before any actual high level player could come and take him out. And they'd just do this over and over. And remember that L2 also had the whole XP loss on death mechanic. So it meant that any time I played a new character, the level 20-35 stretch would take literally twice as long as it should have because of these perma red griefers. If Ashes doesn't find a way to deal with these kinds of scenarios while still maintaining XP loss or XP debt (and material drop which is even WORSE than in L2), it will piss off so many players, including PVPers trying to level up a new character. And no, no high level player is going to just volunteer to babysit newbs in those zones unless they are somehow compensated for their 'guard duty'.

Unpopular opinion but I love the idea of being a red player, the idea that you're corrupted and a criminal who has it tougher than everyone else because of the debuffs applied and the fact that there are players who's sole job is to hunt people like you makes you feel like you're living on the edge. This opens up opportunities for red players to band together and create an assassins guild, that green players can create requests to assassinate other green players without being corrupted

Armor needs to make a massive difference to characters damage and damage taken, or we will get naked griefers wielding nothing but a weapon.

They should go even beyond and make part of the materials dropped when you die degrade and disappear. Would work great to control inflation.

What's to stop a max level player from griefing and then giving all of their gear and materials to a friend, and then having their friend kill them to remove corruption? (max level - exp debt doesn't matter, all gear and materials in their friends hands - nothing lost) ?

Even though i love pvp, i believe gatherers in the main continents shouldn't lose their gathered materials, because most people do gathering to relax, and it can be very stressful to have to constantly watch out for gankers. Also dropping materials on death would make it harder for people to socialize, since even your fellow gatherers would try to kill you if they see you gathering a rare material. That being said, what i believe would be the best option here is to make the isles on the edges of the map the best gathering spots on the world, fill them with abundant and rare materials, but also make them a full pvp zone, where if you die, you lose all your materials. This would incentivize open sea pvp, because you have to take those materials back to the main continents, and would also make the outer islands more relevant and interesting.

My concern with Ashes world pvp, isn't a single griefer, but a band of them. Sandbox games are regularly ruined by zergs. Also, it occurs to me that the corruption system may not play out as intended. It seems possible that the vast majority of players will fight back, at least initially when ganked, in order to drop less loot. If this happens corruption might be extremely rare, and not because few people are getting ganked, but because those getting ganked are trying to preserve the resources they just spent however long gathering.

losing gear on death does sound awful, it will promote people collecting multiple pieces of the same items to the detriment of other players and cluttered bags space and all the pvpers will ignore open world pvp if they are not in a zerg

Anyone who played Silkroad online knows how awesome the Trader-Hunter-Thief was. Hopefully this is close or better

Bro I called this sht out in the new world forums and people said stuff like “I don’t remember people having a problem with the pvp” “you’re crazy” happens every time a game has pvp. This sht is sooo funny to me like most of these people won’t even stick around. - I had to go back and edit this comment. I made it at the start of the video and at 11:50 when you said “it just isn’t for you” omg The smile that came to my face. Some people just can’t cope with some games not being for them “no I like it” but did u stay and grind classic wow to end game when it dropped? Did u grind NW to 60 when it dropped? Have you played a actual mmo in the last 5 years not destiny 2, not rust, not EFT a actual mmo and grind to end game? If you answered no all 3 of these. Mmos just ain’t for u. I can’t see comments like “what defines a mmo destiny 2 has a lot of people playing isn’t it a massive online multiplayer game” and to that I say STFU don’t be a smart ass u know exactly wtf I’m talking about lil pssy btch sht might work on your parents not here boii u know EXACTLY wtf I’m talking about when I say REAL MMO gtfo oh here if u talking survivals, destiney 2 BS. Fckin snow flakes.

Ashes again creating magnificent social gameplay and stories without even existing

I liked how gathering and pvp coexisted in Archeage, safe gathering in your own garden maintained thru taxes, somewhat unsafe gathering in the open world and highly contested gathering and transporting of special resources (mineral water, archeum logs etc), I hope ashes uses something like that and not a half assed system like New World did

Open world pvp isnt for everyone.. but it can be really fun.. it can also be really fusterating but for me it adds a dynamic to mmos that isnt explored enough. I think a good idea would be to reward people for hunting griefers

so if you are in a guild war with another guild can you kill the opposite guild in the open world without gaining corruption?

Couldnt agree more - I also am looking more forward to the non-combat aspects of the game, and generally never participant in PvP in any MMO. I'm one of those filthy FFXIV casuals you mentioned - although I played FF11 a lot back in the day, and I have the rare opinion that losing experience when dying is a great part of a MMO, again risk-reward. FFXIV is a bit too casual for me but still a fun game. I am however really looking forward to the risk-reward aspect of the game. Gathering is boring unless there's an element of risk involved, and I love the idea that the game really discourages random slaughtering of gathers... but doesn't eliminate it entirely. Basically it probably won't happen, but there's always the chance that it will and that keeps it very exciting. I'll be upset if they nerf it at all - I think the best solution for those who really oppose being griefed is to make sure there are items they can buy or craft that allow them a certain amount of time of gathering invisible to other players. That would be a pretty high value item and more reason to get a crafting artisan.

An important video for the current dev discussion

The benefit of gathering in a pvp zone should be that there are less gatherers there. They should not make the best resources only be in pvp areas.

One of the big issues I ran into with archeage, is if you suck at making friends, you're gunna suck at the game. Whereas other current mmos can be played fine alone. There needs to be a healthy middle man between solo players and group activities

Join the Patreon for absolutely no extra benefits because i'm lazy: www.patreon.com/CopiumInhaler There was an intro planned... but a nearly 20 minute video plus some IRL issues slayed me... so i guess i'll use the planned intro for the followup vid to this next month! In the mean time, come join the discord: discord.gg/muwNp8NhbB

the point of the mmo is to play for hours and hours and grind and build up a stockpile of whatever you want, gold, resources, materials, etc. Losing 50% or 25% on death is antithetical to the mmo design completely

Major problem with PvP heavy games is after the griefers drive out the casuals they get bored, and they quit. People who think PvP heavy MMORPG are going last are like people that think socialism will work this time because we're going to do it "right" this time.

I loved the pvp system in L2, it's a pity that it's more boring in BDO. I often kicked players out of the spots that I need to farm. I was kid without friends. others kicked me out. And I found people with whom I play many games to this day. We changed mmo for mmo. And for people like us, this is not a problem. There will always be griefers in the game, whatever you do with such a system. Only a friend or the Guild will help. "No friends? find them!" only sounds good on paper) Steven won't take casuals under his wing. As in L2 and BDO, all top players don't give a shit about PK and casuals and who kills whom there. When there are a lot of people in the game, there are a lot of griefers. Fewer people less griefers. Top guilds do not take casual players. And the sociality that is there is this class division. Either you're a hardcore or a plebeian. This is a game FOR HARDCORE GUILDS and a little for others. Like L2 like Archeage. People have been preparing whole guilds to move to Ashes for a long time. Personally, I would simply not advise the casual to enter at all if he is afraid of the pvp system)

i believe certain zones should be free from PvP so gatherers can do so in peace, and other zones with rarer materials should be contestable via PvP. There should also be some mobs guarding the materials so people cant just camp there all day with no danger.

"why would a grifer kill some rando and get 100 dandelions and a hefty penalty, when they instead could organize a raid and attack a caravan for some serious loot?" Because open world free for all PvP exist mainly as a way for people that either are not able to actually win in fair PvP to still feel powerfull by killing lower level and non combatants or those that dont want to put in the work needed to organize a raid. If its a fair and exciting PvP fight you want, why not actually find someone that also want this and are thus equally prepared for it...

I think there's lots of opportunities to mix merchant gameplay with PvP gameplay. One personal example that comes to mind is when I was playing ArcheAge. I was with two homies and we were just sailing the seas looking for some fights. We come across a guy with a bunch of trade packs (individual processed good packages that you can only carry one at a time on your back and you turn in to a NPC for gold) who was loading up about 10 or so onto a cart he had. We roll up on him and push him into the graveyard (safe zone). We tried to kill him and take his packs before he could get to the safe zone but we were at a standoff of who would stick around longer. Both sides said the usual "lol loser" quips at each other, but whenever another group rolled up looking to do the same thing of pirating, we brokered a deal with the guy. He give us each a trade pack and he keeps the rest and we act as bodyguards. We wiped the floor with the third party and all turned in our packs and all left happy. Everyone was cool and not out of line hostile (I mean we were essentially the bad guys and pseudo-RP'd as such but didn't actually mean it). Ended up adding everyone on my friends list and continued talking after that engagement. I know not every scenario is like this or happens, but you can get some good memorable moments to occur in PvP mixed mercantile players.

I've played games with flag systems like this back in the mid to late '90s. Plenty of ways to bait a green player into going purple. Flag systems always have holes you could drive a big rig through.

Not wrong. I play FFXIV for the story and pretty much the story alone, and GW2 for the actual MMO aspects. I just hope Ashes open pvp doesn't scare off so many casuals it becomes too niche to keep its big MMO aspects alive and working.

About 20 years ago, my first MMO was actually a "MMORPGFPS" called Neocron. Among others it featured more FPS like controls - something more akin to the modern action combat style - nodes in the open world that can be captured by your "clan" (guild) for some benefits and about 10-20 factions. Each pair of factions could be in a allied, neutral or enemy state. Factions, who were enemies to each other could always PVP without penalties, neutral factions could fight but with penalties and allies could not PVP with each other. The social interactions between players of these factions to form further alliances against common enemies and fight them in the end were basically the spice of life in this game. The karma system in Ashes of Creation kind of reminds me of those days, just that there will be no predefined factions and all of it is based on the "politics" between guilds. I am rarely interested in PvP, but this might end up to be a version that is actually interesting for me.

THE CHAD EDIT 💀 Good video man!

I am crafter as I got older but I use to be a pvper. What changed wasn't my age it was there is more serious pvp outlets in gaming. I always thought it was funny that mmo pvpers have a word for the people who don't want pvp in their gathering time. IMO the real carebears are the pvpers who can't hang in real pvp game modes like arena or actual pvp games aka FPS or mobas. I've talked to a few already and I WAS ONE when I was younger. The only real reason a majority(not all MAJORITY) of people want world pvp is to grief or to have a non competitive pvp outlet for their small penis. When I PKed in runescape I wasn't thinking "oh can't wait to have a fun fight" it was more like "give me loot bitch". There is ways to make guild drama without punishing casual content which is the majority of players.

I loved lineage 2 which had this pvp system so it encourages you to get into guilds/clans and fight together

Ahh the Classic fight between Introverted people and Extroverted people. This is what it all boils down too...

Eve online is a full loot "50%keep 50%destroyed" sandbox mmo

I'm not sure why people feel that getting ganked is somehow griefing. Actual carebear take.

As a fall guys player I side with the griefers

Wait what??? He didn't shit on Pantheon at the end of the video? What happened? Did Pantheon became good?

It’s hard to say how corruption and PvP will work in the finished game, but using baseless speculations I think the problem with corruption is that the penalties are too risky for players below max level and not risky enough for max level players. I feel it will deter lower level and near max level players from PvPing because for the most part people’s #1 objective is to reach max level. The big risk of PvP is becoming corrupted or dying, and when you are trying to gain experience as fast as possible I don’t think many people are going to go out of their way to PvP. People don’t want experience debt, they don’t want to risk being corrupted (can’t go back to town and hand stuff in if you’re corrupted), and the gear / items people have probably isn’t that great compared to end game stuff. I don’t think people are going to take the time to make PvP groups and go ganking when they could instead take that time to quest, do dungeons, and level up. There aren’t going to be people loaded with gatherable or valuables at lower levels (compared to max level players who may spend hours out in the world just farming), so I don’t think people are going to fight over farming spots or dungeons at lower levels. Why fight this person over specific quest mobs when I can just walk over here and start working on another quest? Once you reach max level and have some gear and items under your belt, I feel like PvP has little risk. The wiki says the main way to remove corruption is through death, and if you are at max level already who cares if you lose some experience? You’ll just get the exp and more back on your next raid or while you farm other stuff. I might lose items, but I can just make a secondary set of armor with slightly worse stats that I don’t care about losing (and I’m ganking lower level players anyways so it’s not like having worse gear really matters). If I’m really worried about corruption I can just have a friend nearby who can kill me to remove corruption and grab any gear I might drop. If I’m out ganking I probably won’t have any gatherables on me, so other than the gear I’m wearing I have nothing to lose. Realistically I don’t think max level players are going to go around the open world massacring other people. I think there will be PvP in the open world dungeons with good loot (which is a good thing and should make those areas much more interesting than typical PvE dungeons), and PvP over the best farming spots (again a good thing to make the game more interesting). I think the big problem is that there will be groups of people slightly outside the city limits for every node or city. There is realistically no reason for bandits and PvPers not to kill every player that comes into the node. There is no risk to attacking other players when you are wearing a spare set of armor that is easily replaced, have no gatherables to lose, and are capped on experience. What I think intrepid is thinking (I’m putting words in their mouth here) is that the local mayor or players who are getting ganked will band together and get rid of them or pay bounty hunters to take care of them. However I don’t think the bounty hunter system will work because as soon as someone gets corruption the other players nearby kill them (either friends trying to remove it or enemies taking a shot). I’m afraid people will resort to using screenshots in private channels (like discord) to say this person is killing people outside the city so go harass him (which will turn into people doxing them). I think to fix this, how corruption works should be changed slightly at max level. I think below max level corruption should stay as is but tweak the experience loss so its effects grow exponentially, such that 1-2 kills nets very little experience loss when removing corruption (which might already be the case and I just over estimate the exp loss). At max level I think corruption should change from experience debt to a sort of reputation meter. I think death should remove corruption but your reputation meter will stay the same on death. Your reputation meter will determine how NPC’s react to you, and very low reputations should disable services at nodes and eventually have some NPCs become hostile to you. To improve your reputation you have to do extra quests or objectives (outside normal quests) that from a lore perspective improve the city. Something like daily quests: objectives that aren’t really exciting but are relatively easy and just take time.

I think it's possible for both pvpers and pvers to both co exist happily depending on the way the game is structured I'm excited to see what direction AoC takes.

PvP in MMO is a joke anyway unless it's fully equalized and devs actually care about PvP balance. However we all know devs don't really care about PvP balance in MMO because MMO is PvE game in the end. For those who think they're good at PvP in MMO. Go play actual PvP games and climb the ladder there. I bet most of you MMO PvPers will fail miserably.

As a potato farmer and a merchant main back in Archeage, I got no issue in WPvP given that, I was also a pvper back in other games like WoW. So I kinda understand both sides of the coin. Unfortunately, the peeps against pvp in AOC clearly don't understand the core of a PVX game and just directly compare it to their personal experiences playing theme park mmo's.

best thing you can do about it is the system where u can hire people and/or npcs to protect you while farming, it should be open world pvp, but when u are a casual friendly gatherer you should bring yourself a mercenary company that maybe professions in helping out gatherers and also making regions where its impossible to gather without right amount of gear bc of monsters, there you could also overcome that with mercenaries that would love to help you for right amount of money, i think thats the best idea you can have for an open world pvp game, i think everywhere should pvp be enabled, if you want protection you could always hire bodyguards

Hey it's me! 10:15

I can't wait to be flagged as a combatant and repeatedly farmed by someone in PvP gear just because I used a movement skill trying to get away from a griefer while I am in my gathering gear, losing 25% of my mats every time, without any repercussions to the griefer. Sounds so great, there is gonna be so many gatherers.

So no losses when doing guild or node war pvp. Does that include not losing mats and xp?

Narc, video ideas: tradable vs char bound items. IMO everything should be tradable, nothing (or almost nothing) should be char bound. This has a huge effect on the economy, so lots to talk there.

"I dare you to attack me on stream idiots" Challenge accepted 😎 Unfortunately I don't think I'll be that effective at 1v1 being a Bard 😅

Somewhat disagree because what would actually happen is while you are destroying that one griefer another two shows up because they are actually a group of griefers so you get outnumbered because AoC PVP is balanced towards an 8 man group. Now after killing you they'll look for the next target then when they gain enough infamy for the bounty system to start, they'll gonna ask their friend whos not red named to kill them and collect their items and give it back to them

This is actually exactly like Ultima Online's reputation system that is 25 years old. Players would be 'blue', then 'gray' if they commit a criminal act (like theft or attacking a blue). Grays can be attacked. If you murder 5 people you are no longer 'blue' or 'gray', you become a murderer, and are 'red'. Guards in town attack you, you can be attacked by other players, there is a bounty on you, and you can't res unless by another player (a criminal act), or a 'red' NPC healer.

This game just follows the lineage 2 pvp system. The dev literally said it was his favorite game. Let's not forget that lineage 2 had by far the best pvp in any game ever made and the best open world pvp/farming politics. This is how MMOs feel real and let's the players create the content. Another thing to remember here is that player made content can never be replicated by npc content and is orders of magnitude better. This is why all mmos now feel garbage and barely feel like you are playing with other people as they focus on constant npc content (mainly made up of pointless dailies). Edit: just reached 11:50 and see you said basically the same thing.

Hi, I was at first a bit worried about the lack off pvp due to the corruption system (as an albion online player), but you said it right, there will be a lot of interesting and rewarding pvp activities and the only pvp part covered by the corruption system is grieffing and it's a good thing. Thanks for covering this topic. Having tested mortal online 2, full loot pvp murder fiesta 20 feets away from towns and zerg ganking with 0% chances to escape was a bit too much for me. Albion Ganking was fun, but only when this was challenging, with the chances of the gankers to kill the gatherer 50%, and were decided by who played the best.

>why would a griefer kill some randoms out in the wild risking their armour and corruption you clearly havent played osrs where pkers kill you for your 30gp spade

Driving down the center lane is a train wreck waiting to happen

-Gw2 simp like you here. i got into pvp there for a time because i ran out of content to do and wanted achievments, and it was rly fun doing ranked with a friend on voice comms -Similar in WoW (WotLK era), only did duo arenas on voice comms when i ren out of other content -In ashes of creation i'm kinda like you, invested in the gathering, exploration, immersion and the social aspect. Pvp addition to all of that just motivates me to work on that too on the side, organize gathering runs with friends on voice comms and practise dueling to hopefully not get destroyed. And if fun, participate in other pvp segments of the game too. -I rly just want to live in the gorgeous world and be a part of a community, whether it's doing gathering/crafting/leveling/exploration/pve/pvp/socializing etc. i hope it'll be fun, just like i did a mix of everything in other MMOs that pulled me in

When BDO first launched its corruption mechanic it was ramped super hard to try to prevent mass player loss. They slowly scaled it down as less griefers play

"2022 lack of commitment" lol truer words were never spoken.

Back in 2005-6 I played L2 with boomers of that time. They had wives, kids, families, whatever. L2 is a very grindy game and the progress was slooooooow as fuck. And it obviously had the same pvp system as in Ashes, but its PKing activities were less punished than in AoC, so you saw quite a bit more killing than what I think will happen in Ashes. And with all of that, those boomers still loved the game, still progressed bit by bit and usually even lead full guilds to big successes on the server. In other words, if your 10 wives and 50 kids prevent you from enjoying the game - it's a you problem, not a game one.

Dropping a portion of your Mats on death is a great way to balance risk V reward. The longer you are out gathering, or using a mule to haul around goods, the more you're risking in order to gain 'efficiency' for not having to travel back and forth between your storage. Likewise, griefing a gatherer has it's own risk of corruption and you have to balance that with the unknown of just how much materials you will gain by killing this player. Seeing a 'fat gatherer' with a mule out in the wild will be a greater target than some lone guy who happened to stop off to grab some herbs while adventuring. TRUE gatherers could benefit from grouping up to defend each other while on their gathering loops. I think it will create a much more engaging experience for gatherers and 'thieves' alike.

it needs pvp, open world pvp is must have...

This is the worst thing they could do with Ashes of Creations. Like a lot of comments here said: Not everyone respect the meaning of PvP. I remember I quit playing lots of mmorpg (including TERA ONLINE) because I couldnt even leave the START ZONES, when I was doing quests after reach that capital city. If you want to kill everyone you see, sorry but MMORPG is not for you. You can try MOBA and Battle Royales, FPS maybe. MMORPG is about living the world. Doing quests, crafting. OF COURSE we like PvP, but restrict PvP on certain Areas! Aion was great in PvP. I was pissed when a Asmodian killed me, but not every map had asmodians. And they had limited life (because of the statues they hide somewere) to back and kill again. It was not a permanent thing. The player who was killing me was going to leave in minutes/hours. Not stay there forever killing me.

BDOs karma mechanic was HEAVILY abused and NEVER worked the way they wanted it to so if I can expect the same thing in Ashes of Creation it's just going to make PVP HIGHLY fucking annoying ahaha

Confronted by a gank squad, a lone gatherer is either going to put up a futile resistance to lose less material, or not fight back and hope the gank squad gives up as to not trigger a red state. Here's where griefing comes in: griefers will follow players around, attacking and keeping them low on health, trying to bait them to fight back to get a free kill, or letting the mobs finish them off which may or may not trigger a red state, we don't know yet. Imagine being constantly stunned by 5 players' most annoying abilities with the intention of making you angry enough to do something stupid like retaliate. Curious to see how this all plays out.

I think the best open world pvp I've ever seen is back in Aion. You had specific zones that the other faction could invade into so you always needed to be careful in those zones, but also didn't need to worry about so griefers trying to kill you in your own faction. Ashes of Creation's PvP sounds like a cluster fuck that I want to part of.

PvP/PVE both good best together. Now let’s say you’re at war with another area. Would green matter? I don’t think it would you go to war with one node vs another node. If you’re citizenship of either node. Well fair game

i have no opinion

Division one dark zone mechanics. You go into a open pvp zone with a friend but not in a party, you encounter a purple player, you engage in "fair" pvp, your green friend jumps between you and gets killed by purple "fair" pvp player, fair player is now red, you kill them and win.

It's hard for the system to be able to tell the difference between a griefer just camping someone, and lets say a miner killing another miner even after being warned that they've claimed these ore nodes. If they could come up with a clever way to be able to tell between those, then my thoughts would be that I want it to be less punishing, but stricter. Instead of damage reduction vs non corrupted, I would want damage reduction vs green, but I would also want the person who initiates combat to always get some kind of mark, even if its a very very minor bit of corruption that doesnt immediately turn them red. So if a player jumps 5 people, and they all fight back (and die), then they should be starting to stack that corruption up and maybe be getting close to going red. Basically, my worry is that since the system encourages the player to fight back, some real griefers are going to get away with it because players who are desperate to not lose their stuff are fighting back and thus the griefer is not being punished at all. That is my main issue. Also, we shouldn't have any sort of loss of XP. Resources and real life time are more than enough to lose. ------ edit --- Just wanted to come back and add that I would rather err on the side of "assume it's a griefer" rather than the other way around. A miner killing another miner because they're trying to take the ore nodes they claimed is still an aggressive and illegal move. But I dont want them to be punished too much

You could make certain nodes that spawn roaming high-level guards in its territory in random spots which would make gatherers more safe and fighting a challenge for pvp’ers. In this way a gatherer can get regular items in this node. Just make more rare items in other nodes so its a risk vs reward venture. Players could then guard said gatherers on such journeys for a fee and/or to get some of the rare items they themselves cant gather due to a lack of skill. Could also add this option in nodes for the mayor to spend node profits on hiring more guards. They could have a board where players vote on what options they want their mayor to focus profits on next. Better shops with more items? More guards of X level? 5% extra XP for gathering and leveling in the node? A new portal that teleports players to X other location/city? Work on opening up the old mines (new, unique dungeon)? And so on.

Late to the party, but this old blog post seems on point right now. ----------------------------------- DF:UW - Take care of the sheep to keep the wolves Posted on November 27, 2013 by SynCaine The biggest challenge for any PvP sandbox developer is figuring out how to keep the sheep around. The easiest challenge is figuring out how to keep the wolves. If you look at the history of this MMO sub-genre, it’s not difficult to notice a pattern of developers focusing on the wolves, losing the sheep, and then seeing the wolves lose interest as well, despite making so many of the changes they asked for. Darkfall 1 can be added to the list above. DF:UW may or may not qualify just yet. So let’s talk about those sheep, because I think they might be the most misunderstood group around. If you have already taken the first step, and have bought a game like DF or EVE, you are already in a different class of player than the ‘normal’ PvE themepark player (I’d write that makes you better, but then someone would point out I’m an egotistical asshole and my feelings would get all hurt :tear: ). That said, simply because you have taken the first step does not mean you instantly fall into the wolf category. Far from it actually. What the vast majority of these players are looking for is actually a very PvE-focused, social (no not that kind of ‘social) experience, just with the flavoring of an open world and PvP. They don’t play in spite of the PvP, but they also don’t only play for it. The “PvP Only” crowd, while very vocal, is always a tiny minority. For every Hydra Reloaded, you have dozens of EVE Uni pilots. For every Zealot, you have dozens of Empire players. The game in question needs to cater to the sheep in order to survive. It must allow them to grow despite the efforts of the wolves, and it must be a better, more interested PvE experience than what they could get in ‘safer’ MMOs. Certainly leveraging the open world PvP aspect here is key, as you can’t compete straight-up on PvE, but there is a fine line between leveraging and simply allowing PvP to be ‘the point’. As is always the case, EVE gets this right. Ganking in Empire space is still possible and can be very profitable, but it’s also very easy to avoid and really only effects the sheep who more or less should be ready for it (rich players). Null, while being the PvP-focused portion of the game, is also setup in such a way that the average cog player is not some PvP expert, but rather just another player in a giant Corporation/Alliance. The core PvPers are your FCs, CEOs, or the small-scale, elite Corps. That said, the incentives are also there to get those Empire players out into more dangers space. Wormholes offer far more profitable PvE than known space, and both null and low-sec also hold advantages outside of simply allowing PvP. The balance however lies in the fact that in Empire, most of the game is still possible, if perhaps not optimal. DF1 failed here because the influence of the core PvPers was far too great, both on the small and large scale. In small scale, a single great player could easily beat multiple weaker players, quickly recover, and continue on. On a larger scale, the smaller elite clans were often the deciding factor in a siege, and under the ‘merc’ tag, basically strangled the game’s political aspect. DF:UW is better on the small scale, where it’s more difficult for one player to go superman-mode in a fight. Player skill still creates a large gap, but not SO large as to be a major, insurmountable problem. This then translated into large scale combat as well, making ‘zerging’ more effective and giving large, casual clans better odds. DF:UW current problem however is not PvP-based, its everything else. For the sheep, reach the state of being ‘done’ is fairly quick, and for them PvP’ing for the sake of PvP is not a major draw. There are no long-term goals to shoot for like in EVE, nor is the simple allure of more wealth there. In EVE sitting in a fully-fitted Titan (if we pretend that’s an end-game goal) is very difficult. In DF, reach the equivalent is trivial. As for those wolves, they will remain so long as the sheep do. Oh, they will cry you rivers of tears when you make things more difficult for them and threaten to leave countless times, but don’t worry, they aren’t going anywhere. In part because their options are limited, but also because deep down, that play style naturally enjoys the challenge. Goons didn’t burn Jita because it was profitable, or because it was easy; they did it because CCP put up road blocks to try and dissuade them.

I'm withholding judgment until they get closer to release. I hope Steven can bring his ideas together in a fun way across the board. Generally I enjoy a good mix of PVE and PVP. If gear can carry someone in PVP like Archeage/BDO it's not something I'll take seriously or invest a lot of time in. I play well enough in other comeptive pvp games I don't need a false sense of accomplishment. Lol

love the sandbox elements and its why I want to play the game and it's why I'm glad Steven is so passionate about it, if people want to play an A-B boring MMO go play WoW or FF

Thank you for putting out all the details on this situation!!!! I posted on AOC with my thoughts.... I think the corruption debuffs will be enough to keep true griefers at bay..... I do hope though that players who spend more of their game time lvling combat skills and "build efficiency" will hopefully be on par via "skill power" of those who focus one crafting and having better"gear power". If they can nail this balance and not make one type of lvling superior it will do wonders for the community. Hopefully have it all wash out at max lvl. Resulting in those with the best gear and most skill being the strongest players, ideally resulting in Pvpers with crafter homies building a solid community.... Pvpers being focused on winning wars and defending caravans during those types of events. But relying on the crafters and gatherers to do their thing in order to keep a node capabilities strong. Which will allow pvpers to have access to decent items also. I still am a firm believer that PVP skill "knowing how to play your build" should have an edge over "raw stats"... IE: 2% more health... should not make that much of a damn difference. I have seen this a lot in other games and its crap... Yes if you out gear someone by 15%/20% base stats, yes you should clap them with relative ease, if your decent at your build. But seeing DOG SHIT players with raid gear running around doing dumb shit and still dominating in a pvp setting due to raw overpowered gear earned in some rinse and repeat raid that they begged their moms guild to run them through.. yea thats HOT FUCKING Garbage!!!! Keep the bangers coming. I am excited to see how this particular mechanic plays out. I honestly think that the Good pvpers will not be griefing or ganking that often in a gathering setting.... Of course, there are Cunts out there who will but most of them are the people that actually suck at pvp and are butt hurt so they are looking for an easy kill to make them feel better about their shit existence IRL and online As a pvper IDGAF about people on the road if I wasn't actively engaged in some type of instanced pvp or cyrodil I was doing what I needed to do in the pve world to get better gear so I could be better at pvp...

I do not mind penalty on XP - Having played FFXI and SWG I am fully aware of this penalty. It actually holds people accountable to learning their own character classes - and penalizes those who are just coasting on the coat tails of others. Penalties (while not popular I am fully aware) can teach people the importance of learning from mistakes, learning tactics and coming up with different methods on how to do things thus encouraging folks to perform better. To Add, losing gear (While again not popular) actually would be good for crafters and Gatherers. It sounds like they have a system in place to really persuade folks not to turn 'Red' however if they do then they can lose their gear and suffer that consequence and thus in return oddly giving back that money toward crafters / gatherers. Its a funky loop - Sure they could have friends to supply them but its still gonna cost somewhere along the line. I am interested to see how this plays out.

As long as pvp attacks don't force interrupt the gathering process then the system sounds fine.

it appears your main argument would be 1v1 and most groups gathering dropped items are groups with a lowbie as bait to get you to flag before they wreck your shit. Better roll in a group in a game like this. solo will not have a good time

LMAO. The game was always PvP. Don't ruin someone else's vision by what you want it to be. If I make a vegan restaurant, don't go in and order beef, then be angry it doesn't serve beef.

It will definitely be an interesting study on player behavior, But I don't see any landslide revelations coming out of this game. It will become grief city, it will support a small but very fanatically dedicated playerbase, who will laugh and scorn anyone who disagrees with the game design, Chasing away anyone who isn't foaming at the mouth for the concept, and it will eventually fade into the background like all other full PvP loot games out there. It may just take a few months longer then other games of it's ilk. All this discussion about how amazing this new system is will buy you guys a few months at least before people realize that it's the same sandwich with a different type of bread. If that's all that the creators want, then more power to them. But denying this is just denying reality and decades of previous player experiences in similar games.

Narc, I've been watching your videos for about two months now... And I still have no damn idea what Coppa Cola is.